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"Rape" and Game Culture - Page 26

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FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
August 13 2010 23:20 GMT
#501
On August 14 2010 08:02 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2010 07:59 FabledIntegral wrote:
I've noticed a few of the posts lately are talking about rights. I hope people are aware the OP never intended to take away your right to say it, he was instead trying to say "please look at the repercussions it can cause on others. I'm not telling you that you're not allowed to say it. I'm asking you to be considerate." No one is saying you have to stop using it, it's merely a request. Which is fine when people are saying no, imo, but those who are bringing in "rights" and "free speech" are missing the entire point of the OP.

He's not saying "she has the right not to be offended." He's saying "please be considerate and don't offend her."

He's editted his post somewhat but his tone was extremely arrogant and he suggested everyone who disagreed with him was immature, stupid or both. I think he'd have had a lot less of an argument on his hands had he taken a less sanctimonious approach.


Admittedly some of his other posts were not the greatest, but I feel the original OP was fine without much arrogance at all, and I've followed the thread almost in its entirety. I do agree with you on parts, but I feel people don't see the actual message. He clearly stated in one post though what I said above.

Btw, I'm not saying I'm even agreeing with him, it's just annoying people not seeing the message he's trying to say. The validity of the message might be in question, but when they miss it entirely...
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8068 Posts
August 13 2010 23:21 GMT
#502
On August 14 2010 08:15 sadyque wrote:
Actually most post i read here didn't try to force anyone to censor their language. No one tried to stop anyone from doing anything. Its a free internet everyone can say anyhing about anyone.
I for one im just trying to ask you to THINK what some words we as gamers use can mean to other people. People who could be valued members of the community.
Im pretty sure most of us when we see a nickname like Nikky or Jess we imagine that our opponent is some hot blonde chick. Im pretty sure 99% of the time its just some fat guy. No hot blonde chick would play in a community who uses words like rape...
Just my opionon...

Anyways like the saying goes " Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win youre still retarded"

Hahahahahahaha :-) Some Romanian power here. Made me smile.

On August 14 2010 08:19 Sunyveil wrote:
I think the usage of "rape" in a gaming sense is legitimate. The word does not strictly imply a sexual act (look it up in a dictionary). That doesn't mean that it's a good thing, as there are other words that can be used to describe defeat. Ultimately I don't think you can really say it's that offensive. It's (kind of) like saying that a kid's magazine cover is inappropriate because it talks about cleavage. And explains cells dividing.

However, "gay", "faggot", "nigger", are all despicably derogatory and there is no excuse to use these words as insults.

Pretty much, yes.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
IrrasO
Profile Joined October 2008
United States408 Posts
August 13 2010 23:24 GMT
#503
there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
August 13 2010 23:25 GMT
#504
On August 14 2010 08:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2010 08:08 Aex wrote:
On August 14 2010 07:49 huameng wrote:
On August 14 2010 07:44 johnlee wrote:
On August 14 2010 07:36 sadyque wrote:
On August 14 2010 07:31 johnlee wrote:
Here's an excerpt from a book No One Owns You by Andrew Knight, which pretty much sums up how I feel about this:
+ Show Spoiler +

"There is, in my opinion, nothing inherently wrong, vulgar, violent, or indecent about any language, including profanity. Words are just fucking words. Without doubt, they can be used (in conjunction with raised voices and aggressive body language) to intimidate and verbally abuse others. However, the mere use of these words to communicate is not, per se, violent. So what might a Libertarian say about a hypersensitive Puritan woman who is stuck in the same room with a man who honed his vocabulary in a federal penitentiary? Assume that the man has no intention of being violent but, in speaking naturally, discusses things the Puritan finds acutely objectionable and in a language that makes her want to squeal in disgust.

Let’s make no mistake: the Puritan experiences emotional trauma by the man’s words. In some metaphysical sense, the man’s nonviolent words are causing her pain, but only in conjunction with her hypersensitivity. Who is to blame and what should be done to alleviate the pain?

First, to assign blame here is to assume that someone is acting wrongly. I suggest that neither is wrong. The Puritan woman is merely reacting according to her pre-programming and emotional conditioning, and so is the man. In other words, they are both merely being themselves. Because the man is not being offensively violent to the woman, and also because he is not intending to harm her, the woman has no right to use violence against him in defense. Without an offense, there is no defense. Libertarianism respects the right of every person to be himself and to act, speak, and live freely to the extent that he does not violate the rights of others. The woman’s rights to life, liberty, and property have not been abrogated by the man’s choice of words.

To assert that neither is to blame and that no offensive attack has occurred is not to invalidate the woman’s feelings. Indeed, she does feel pain (of discomfort, at the very least) and she is not to blame for having these feelings. However, she is responsible for them. She must be held accountable for the ease with which she feels pain. A hypersensitive person cannot expect the world’s inhabitants to tiptoe around her in constant fear that she will be disturbed by the sounds of their footfall. People are people. Sometimes they’re loud. Sometimes they’re obnoxious. Sometimes they get in our way. But we share this tiny planet with several billion of them. To require every person to conform to our individual standards of comfort or morality would be chaotic as there are several billion such standards – one for each person. But to let people be themselves, to accept and understand even if we don’t agree – that is the recipe for peace and tranquility.
Therefore, in my opinion, it is the woman’s responsibility to either leave the room or to learn to accept the man for who he is. The woman’s pain – a very real and understandable pain – is nonetheless her problem, not his. To hold otherwise would be to allow the world to be controlled by the most hypersensitive people. I say: let them be sensitive. Let them take offense. Let them be perpetually annoyed, bothered, angry, and judgemental. In the meanwhile, I’ll continue to be the free, unhindered, joyful child that I am. In the meanwhile, I’ll continue to live without artificial constraints, respecting the rights of others to live freely, and with little concern as to who may find me offensive, rude, or socially inept.
To require every person to stay in his own space, to tread lightly, to speak softly, to conform to the hypersensitive person’s arbitrary standards and notions of decency is to blame every person for his very existence. Humans are creatures of nature. Neither the Victorian Era nor the Industrial Revolution changed the fact that we are all, fundamentally, children. Children are loud, cantankerous, silly, rude animals and they neither understand nor fully obey societal rules. On the other hand, to set a very high threshold for discomfort – to let the people around you be themselves without your resorting to anger, judgement, or criticism – is one of the kindest gifts you can bestow on the world. You can meaningfully contribute to humanity by accepting others as they are and decreasing your sensitivity to their differing opinions and ways of life.

The Puritan woman need not like the man, nor is she required to engage in conversation with him. But he has not offensively attacked her and, therefore, she has no defensive recourse. She has three options: a) continue to experience pain; b) leave the room; or c) learn to accept the man as he is, reduce her sensitivities, and increase her pain threshold. Of course, option a) seems unwise and option b) will doom the woman to isolation and loneliness. After all, we’ve all known lonely elderly folks stuck in retirement homes whom few will visit for fear of their judgements, hypersensitivity, and manipulation. Arguably, the woman’s best option is c): she has the power to accept the man as he is. She need not feel pain when surrounded by people who look differently, speak differently, and have different priorities than she does.

I believe that it is every person’s responsibility, both for his own happiness as well as that of the world’s populace, to shed his sensitivities and artificial dictates about how others “should” act, speak, dress, and live. The Puritan woman may feel a very real discomfort to which we can all empathize, but that is her problem to solve. To allow her to push her insecurities and discomforts on others is to allow the world to be ruled by fear, prejudice, hatred, and the psychological constraints imposed by cowards."


Erm so your point is that if we allow a woman who was raped to have a problem with that then we " allow her to push her insecurities and discomforts on others is to allow the world to be ruled by fear, prejudice, hatred, and the psychological constraints imposed by cowards"+ Show Spoiler +


Yep. If we let a woman who was raped push onto us HER issues with the way WE use the word, then we definitely a problem.
I'm not okay-ing the fact that woman was raped. I'm saying that the fact that she is trying to use her rape experiences (which was clearly unfortunate) to disallow a gaming community or anything else for that matter from using the word, is wrong when it's clear that we are not using the word rape in the sense that she experienced.

It's as simple as that.


Would it be incorrect to sum up your views as "I don't care one iota about you, deal with it"?

I think we should care about these people and not use offensive words. I don't get why such a tiny thing that could make so many people hurt less is being resisted so much.


I find a lot of Americans inherently don't like socialism. Thre reason is: "Why should I have to do "insert something here" to benefit someone I don't know or care about?" It sounds selfish when you look at one example in a vacuum. It is just one little word right? Well, there are other words that offend people too. Why should you stop saying one little word that offends people, but be allowed to say other words that offend people? We should stop saying those other words too and make so many more hurt even less. Where should it stop? When do we get to the point where it becomes burdensome?

Some people think socialism is good. Some people think socialism is bad. It is basically the root behind this discussion about using one little word. You can agree or disagree with how people feel about it, but that's basically the jist.

If we add Hitler to the discussion, we will have had everything: human rights, socialism, community prides, politically correct AND Nazism. Isn't that wonderful?

One more effort comrades!


Hit the "All" button and "Find" --> Hitler. He's been mentioned. Same with Nazi. Maybe not with the same elaboration, but it's there.
SpicyCrab
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
402 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-13 23:29:13
August 13 2010 23:26 GMT
#505
On August 14 2010 08:14 StarStruck wrote:
Um, how are we lying? You do realize mods can see all your edits right? You didn't deny any of it.

Your tone speaks for itself. Just look at the way you address the issue. People can read between the lines man.

You are a funny guy.


It was implied that I edited my original post to make it less abrasive and that is not the case. I really am sorry that I came off as arrogant and I certainly didn't mean to do so. I am speaking for an issue that embarrasses me as a gamer and that has caused emotional damage to friends of mine so I do believe I became overly emotional and I do apologize.

However my original post stands. Any way, I really hope I can actually not post in this thread any more, please direct the discussion away from me personally if possible.
I'm such a baller in my dreams. - HiFriend
catamorphist
Profile Joined May 2010
United States297 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-13 23:35:57
August 13 2010 23:33 GMT
#506
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote:
there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.


This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?

On August 14 2010 08:19 Sunyveil wrote:
I think the usage of "rape" in a gaming sense is legitimate. The word does not strictly imply a sexual act (look it up in a dictionary). That doesn't mean that it's a good thing, as there are other words that can be used to describe defeat. Ultimately I don't think you can really say it's that offensive. It's (kind of) like saying that a kid's magazine cover is inappropriate because it talks about cleavage. And explains cells dividing.

However, "gay", "faggot", "nigger", are all despicably derogatory and there is no excuse to use these words as insults.


This post is truly bizarre. What do you mean, "you" can't really say it's that offensive? If it offends a bunch of people, then it's offensive by definition! You don't get to veto them and decide that they're not actually offended because you don't think they should be! You get to decide whether to offend them or not.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/281144/1/catamorphist/
Vei
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2845 Posts
August 13 2010 23:34 GMT
#507
On August 14 2010 08:26 SpicyCrab wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2010 08:14 StarStruck wrote:
Um, how are we lying? You do realize mods can see all your edits right? You didn't deny any of it.

Your tone speaks for itself. Just look at the way you address the issue. People can read between the lines man.

You are a funny guy.


It was implied that I edited my original post to make it less abrasive and that is not the case. I really am sorry that I came off as arrogant and I certainly didn't mean to do so. I am speaking for an issue that embarrasses me as a gamer and that has caused emotional damage to friends of mine so I do believe I became overly emotional and I do apologize.

However my original post stands. Any way, I really hope I can actually not post in this thread any more, please direct the discussion away from me personally if possible.

At one point people like you probably opposed the description of dumb things as 'dumb' so as to not insult deaf and mute people.

language always has this cycle. A term that describes something viewed as pitiful/bad, dumb/retard/rape/gay, turns into an insult. Then over time, that insult loses its strength as it becomes more and more used and people grow complacent towards it.
www.justin.tv/veisc2 ~ 720p + commentary
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43934 Posts
August 13 2010 23:37 GMT
#508
On August 14 2010 08:33 catamorphist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote:
there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.


This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?

He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape.
Any questions?
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
huameng
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States1133 Posts
August 13 2010 23:38 GMT
#509
On August 14 2010 08:08 Aex wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2010 07:49 huameng wrote:
Would it be incorrect to sum up your views as "I don't care one iota about you, deal with it"?

I think we should care about these people and not use offensive words. I don't get why such a tiny thing that could make so many people hurt less is being resisted so much.


I find a lot of Americans inherently don't like socialism. Thre reason is: "Why should I have to do "insert something here" to benefit someone I don't know or care about?" It sounds selfish when you look at one example in a vacuum. It is just one little word right? Well, there are other words that offend people too. Why should you stop saying one little word that offends people, but be allowed to say other words that offend people? We should stop saying those other words too and make so many more hurt even less. Where should it stop? When do we get to the point where it becomes burdensome?

Some people think socialism is good. Some people think socialism is bad. It is basically the root behind this discussion about using one little word. You can agree or disagree with how people feel about it, but that's basically the jist.


I'm not trying to generalize this opinion to a philosophy or political system or anything, I'm just trying to solve this specific problem of people being offended by faggot, rape, nigger, etc. And no one thinks you shouldn't be allowed to offend people, or be vulgar. I just think you should try to not offend anyone, at least not anyone who hasn't done anything to deserve it. We, as a community, don't have to draw a line anywhere, but we, as a community, could be a better one by calling people assholes instead of faggots.
skating
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
August 13 2010 23:39 GMT
#510
There is a difference between using the word 'rape' and using the word 'faggot'. The difference is that rape victims often suffer from something known as post traumatic stress disorder. When a person who suffers from post traumatic stress disorder hears the word 'rape', they often experience flashbacks and relive the emotions that they experienced from the incident. This isn't simply someone remembering a negative experience; post traumatic stress disorder can only be caused by extreme fear and emotional damage during the incident. Saying 'murder' to a someone who had a family member that was killed is nothing like saying 'rape' to someone who's suffering from post traumatic stress disorder. The former is simply reminding someone of a sad event. The latter is striking at someone's mental disorder causing them to relive the actual emotions.

When you call someone a 'faggot', whether or not it is homophobic is purely contextual. If I yell
"get off the road faggot" to some guy driving a loud motorcycle, it does not mean that I'm anti-homosexual. There is no reason that it would offend gay people. The history behind that word is just being a bundle of sticks, or a British cigar. Saying 'rape' is different in that there are consequences to using the word even when not in an offensive context.

Back on track. What this issue boils down to is the well being of rape victims vs gaming culture. I personally do not use the word 'rape' or any other insulting terms because of the reasons that OP stated, and also because I simply don't like all the trash talk that happens in video games. However, I do not wish for other people to follow in my footsteps. The crux of online gaming culture is all the trash talk, the extreme language, and how badly you can verbally offend people. This is something that a lot of people want to experience and it can only happen in online gaming. In real life, you can't say any of that. It's not just the word 'rape' that's bad. There is a lot of context in online gaming that deals with racism, sexism, antisemitism, terrorism, etc. Anything verbal that can possibly offend someone has a place in online gaming. This shady culture that we have in our world has a great value in that it allows people to express their darkest sides without consequence. It allows people to express their deepest anger and hate. For a lot of people, it is an escape from the dreary reality where everyone hides under a mask and only say what won't get them beaten up. By removing certain vocabulary that may hurt people, you are undermining the crux of gaming culture. That is why it is so essential to preserve gaming culture to its fullest. Even though some people may be unintentionally harmed by this, it is more important in life to embrace the things we enjoy rather than avoid the things we detest.

Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
August 13 2010 23:39 GMT
#511
I was actually thinking about this same issue last week, since I noticed that (I think it was) DJWheat and Chill kept using it very casually in the Weapon of Choice broadcast last sunday. I doubt they're anything but nice people and would refrain from using that word if someone felt genuinely offended, so probably it's just a habit many gamers have picked up. I myself often use religious imagery to express strong emotions because I like how colorful it sounds and although I've never been personally asked to refrain from such words in the Netherlands there do exist adds that plead to people to stop using the name of Jesus Christ casually. To be honest I thought that was a completely silly request; most people aren't terribly religious and would never be offended by such things, so to ask me to change phrases I use regularly seemed like oversensitivity.

What I find very troubling about the abuse of the word rape however is that first of all it reflects very badly on teamliquid. It perpetuates the stereotype that gaming is for emotionally immature adolescents, similarly to how homosexual slurs are used. Second, it is glorifying rape because the complete domination of one person over the other is in starcraft a very empowering state and if you just call that rape at the very least you're not helping to lower how horrificly widespread rape is.

I do think the world would be a nicer place if people were just more careful with choosing the words they used. Complete insensitivity to other's sensibilities might make you cool and adult, but hardly emotionally mature, and there's a reward in itself for properly using language as you're often able to express yourself better and think more clearly.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Pholon
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Netherlands6142 Posts
August 13 2010 23:41 GMT
#512
Haven't read EVERYTHING but yes OP thank you. I'm proud of my beloved StarCraft community as one of the most mannared ones in gaming culture and although it's deteriorating I'll try my best to salvage it. Even though I like my fucks and fuckings when pumpedly casting I'll try to pay more attention and not use offensive terminology anymore.
Moderator@TLPholon // "I need a third hand to facepalm right now"
catamorphist
Profile Joined May 2010
United States297 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-13 23:44:08
August 13 2010 23:43 GMT
#513
On August 14 2010 08:37 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2010 08:33 catamorphist wrote:
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote:
there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.


This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?

He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape.
Any questions?


The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/281144/1/catamorphist/
Aex
Profile Joined May 2010
United States29 Posts
August 13 2010 23:43 GMT
#514
On August 14 2010 08:38 huameng wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2010 08:08 Aex wrote:
On August 14 2010 07:49 huameng wrote:
Would it be incorrect to sum up your views as "I don't care one iota about you, deal with it"?

I think we should care about these people and not use offensive words. I don't get why such a tiny thing that could make so many people hurt less is being resisted so much.


I find a lot of Americans inherently don't like socialism. Thre reason is: "Why should I have to do "insert something here" to benefit someone I don't know or care about?" It sounds selfish when you look at one example in a vacuum. It is just one little word right? Well, there are other words that offend people too. Why should you stop saying one little word that offends people, but be allowed to say other words that offend people? We should stop saying those other words too and make so many more hurt even less. Where should it stop? When do we get to the point where it becomes burdensome?

Some people think socialism is good. Some people think socialism is bad. It is basically the root behind this discussion about using one little word. You can agree or disagree with how people feel about it, but that's basically the jist.


I'm not trying to generalize this opinion to a philosophy or political system or anything, I'm just trying to solve this specific problem of people being offended by faggot, rape, nigger, etc. And no one thinks you shouldn't be allowed to offend people, or be vulgar. I just think you should try to not offend anyone, at least not anyone who hasn't done anything to deserve it. We, as a community, don't have to draw a line anywhere, but we, as a community, could be a better one by calling people assholes instead of faggots.



Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.

Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?
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huameng
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States1133 Posts
August 13 2010 23:48 GMT
#515
On August 14 2010 08:37 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2010 08:33 catamorphist wrote:
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote:
there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.


This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?

He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape.
Any questions?


Do you think characterizing the argument made by the OP as "stop using words that people could misunderstand" is the best, or even one of the best, ways you could do so? I think you are seriously dodging the issue here, and it has nothing to do with any sort of misunderstanding.




Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.

Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?


Because when you call someone a faggot, you aren't just offending the person to whom you are speaking, (which is presumably your goal) but you're offending me, the OP, and a lot of other people as well. Calling someone an asshole doesn't have that effect.
skating
catamorphist
Profile Joined May 2010
United States297 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-13 23:50:25
August 13 2010 23:49 GMT
#516
On August 14 2010 08:43 Aex wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2010 08:38 huameng wrote:
On August 14 2010 08:08 Aex wrote:
On August 14 2010 07:49 huameng wrote:
Would it be incorrect to sum up your views as "I don't care one iota about you, deal with it"?

I think we should care about these people and not use offensive words. I don't get why such a tiny thing that could make so many people hurt less is being resisted so much.


I find a lot of Americans inherently don't like socialism. Thre reason is: "Why should I have to do "insert something here" to benefit someone I don't know or care about?" It sounds selfish when you look at one example in a vacuum. It is just one little word right? Well, there are other words that offend people too. Why should you stop saying one little word that offends people, but be allowed to say other words that offend people? We should stop saying those other words too and make so many more hurt even less. Where should it stop? When do we get to the point where it becomes burdensome?

Some people think socialism is good. Some people think socialism is bad. It is basically the root behind this discussion about using one little word. You can agree or disagree with how people feel about it, but that's basically the jist.


I'm not trying to generalize this opinion to a philosophy or political system or anything, I'm just trying to solve this specific problem of people being offended by faggot, rape, nigger, etc. And no one thinks you shouldn't be allowed to offend people, or be vulgar. I just think you should try to not offend anyone, at least not anyone who hasn't done anything to deserve it. We, as a community, don't have to draw a line anywhere, but we, as a community, could be a better one by calling people assholes instead of faggots.



Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.

Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?


There is not actually a word god telling you that it's OK to use one, but that you will go to hell if you use the other. If you like to be the guy who doesn't give a shit and is totally edgy and if someone thinks otherwise they can fuck off -- then go rape some faggots and forget about it. The point of the post is that when you're sixteen and you grew up on Battle.net and 4chan, sometimes you forget that "rape" and "faggot" and "nigger" offend people in the real world, and you end up insulting a lot of people inadvertently. "Asshole" offends different people, and hell, if you don't want to offend them, then maybe you shouldn't use that word either, huh?
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/281144/1/catamorphist/
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43934 Posts
August 13 2010 23:50 GMT
#517
On August 14 2010 08:43 catamorphist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2010 08:37 KwarK wrote:
On August 14 2010 08:33 catamorphist wrote:
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote:
there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.


This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?

He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape.
Any questions?


The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all.

I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context.

That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43934 Posts
August 13 2010 23:52 GMT
#518
On August 14 2010 08:48 huameng wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2010 08:37 KwarK wrote:
On August 14 2010 08:33 catamorphist wrote:
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote:
there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.


This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?

He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape.
Any questions?


Do you think characterizing the argument made by the OP as "stop using words that people could misunderstand" is the best, or even one of the best, ways you could do so? I think you are seriously dodging the issue here, and it has nothing to do with any sort of misunderstanding.


catamorphist seemed to not understand a fairly simply point someone was making so I clarified it for that person. That does not make it my argument, that makes me a translator. Feel free to read any of the previous dozens of posts I've made in the topic for my views.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
catamorphist
Profile Joined May 2010
United States297 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-13 23:59:31
August 13 2010 23:55 GMT
#519
On August 14 2010 08:50 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2010 08:43 catamorphist wrote:
On August 14 2010 08:37 KwarK wrote:
On August 14 2010 08:33 catamorphist wrote:
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote:
there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.


This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?

He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape.
Any questions?


The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all.

I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context.

That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it.


OK, well, I propose you do an experiment. In the real world, take ten girls or women that you know -- hopefully not coworkers -- and the next time you want to describe something to them that involves one guy losing out, say that the guy got raped. If they don't mind because they can easily obtain a "very basic understanding of the situation", then I am just wrong and I tip my hat to your accurate assessment of the situation.

But I'm not going to do that experiment, because I know that I would not have very many female friends who still wanted to talk to me after a few trials. I think I know a total of two girls who hang around some gamer guys and don't mind such things, and some rather large amount who would perceive it as either sexist, creepy, offensive, or something an oblivious twelve-year-old would say.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/281144/1/catamorphist/
Myles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5162 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-13 23:57:47
August 13 2010 23:56 GMT
#520
On August 14 2010 08:48 huameng wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2010 08:37 KwarK wrote:
On August 14 2010 08:33 catamorphist wrote:
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote:
there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.


This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?

He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape.
Any questions?


Do you think characterizing the argument made by the OP as "stop using words that people could misunderstand" is the best, or even one of the best, ways you could do so? I think you are seriously dodging the issue here, and it has nothing to do with any sort of misunderstanding.



Show nested quote +

Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.

Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?


Because when you call someone a faggot, you aren't just offending the person to whom you are speaking, (which is presumably your goal) but you're offending me, the OP, and a lot of other people as well. Calling someone an asshole doesn't have that effect.


Do you not see the hypocrisy in that statement? Who are you to decide which words offend which people and which one is worse?
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