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Yeah I agree its a terrible word that has worked its way in to our accepted speech about destroying somebody completely. Nothing we can do to change it though. Just don't use it yourself and feel good about that. However if you use the word you don't have to feel bad about it, it's just another word that has gained a seperate less demonic meaning.
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I read this thread initially thinking "what a retarded OP this is, clearly a person who is clutching at vague straws to make some loose moral point" but then I realised what a truly visionary point this was.
Phrases such as "you got burned" trivialise people who have been harmed in fires
"Oh man, your killing me!" Clearly this also trivialises murder, Don't they know people die god damn it!
"You got owned!" - all I can saw is wow, how people can even say something that pangs of trivialising slavery and the oppression of a whole race of people is beyond me.
"You got raped" ahh here we come strait to the matter of importance here. Clearly rape is not a word used metaphorically in any sense, CLEARLY it is a way of gamers trivialising (what a fun word that is) rape.
This is a really serious problem and ought be treated as such, in no way is this a ridiculous point to make.
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On August 14 2010 08:48 huameng wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 08:37 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:33 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote:
there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them. This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point? He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions? Do you think characterizing the argument made by the OP as "stop using words that people could misunderstand" is the best, or even one of the best, ways you could do so? I think you are seriously dodging the issue here, and it has nothing to do with any sort of misunderstanding. Show nested quote +
Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.
Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?
Because when you call someone a faggot, you aren't just offending the person to whom you are speaking, (which is presumably your goal) but you're offending me, the OP, and a lot of other people as well. Calling someone an asshole doesn't have that effect.
I would argue that many feel the same way about the word faggot that you feel about asshole, it just doesn't have that offensive effect on them. It is possible asshole could have the same effect for others. It may not offend you, and it seems you have no issue about using the word, but it may offend the person next to you, or someone else? The only difference is you can put a face/name to the people offended by the word faggot (you and the OP), but you are unable to put a face/name to the people offended by the word asshole.
On a side note: Outside of these postings, I never use the word. I don't like it, and it makes me cringe hearing other people say it. I might even ask them to not use it while I'm around and if they keep using it I may even remove myself from the situation. Though, I'm not going to tell them they can't use the word because it offends me.
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On August 14 2010 08:55 catamorphist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 08:50 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:43 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:37 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:33 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote:
there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them. This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point? He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions? The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all. I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context. That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it. OK, well, I propose you do an experiment. In the real world, take ten girls or women that you know -- hopefully not coworkers -- and the next time you want to describe something to them that involves one guy losing out, say that the guy got raped. If they don't mind because they can easily obtain a "very basic understanding of the situation", then I am just wrong and I tip my hat to your accurate assessment of the situation. But I'm not going to do that experiment, because I know that I would not have very many female friends who still wanted to talk to me after a few trials.
Am I the only one that hears the word "rape" used CONSTANTLY in everyday life in these terms? Maybe it has to do with being in a fraternity, but with PLENTY of sorority (and nonaffiliated girls) around the term is still used frequently. Especially in beer pong. "Dude, we just RAPED their team," "man we just raped face."
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I agree that it is ridiculous for people to use the term rape for games.
I do not at all agree with the counter arguments that are given either. This is not the case of it being a different meaning of a word. When the word is used in games, it is specifically referring to the definition of rape, not creating it's own definition. It may use it lightly and not literally mean "to rape," but it still is only used on the basis of what rape actually is.
I think this will always just be a terrible thing in gaming communities, though. Not just rape, but excessive use of gay and racial slurs. I do not think that it is too crazy to believe that a thread like this can help at least the teamliquid community, though.
Please do not use the word you guys. I know you don't think you mean anything by it and you can argue about how it is acceptable, but at the end of the day, there are people out there who are still hurt by it regardless of what you believe. Please try not to hurt others, be considerate, friends : ).
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United States41931 Posts
On August 14 2010 08:55 catamorphist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 08:50 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:43 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:37 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:33 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote:
there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them. This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point? He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions? The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all. I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context. That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it. OK, well, I propose you do an experiment. In the real world, take ten girls or women that you know -- hopefully not coworkers -- and the next time you want to describe something to them that involves one guy losing out, say that the guy got raped. If they don't mind because they can easily obtain a "very basic understanding of the situation", then I am just wrong and I tip my hat to your accurate assessment of the situation. But I'm not going to do that experiment, because I know that I would not have very many female friends who still wanted to talk to me after a few trials.
I get the impression the girls you spend time with are very different from the ones I spend time with.
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On August 14 2010 08:58 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 08:55 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:50 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:43 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:37 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:33 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote:
there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them. This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point? He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions? The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all. I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context. That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it. OK, well, I propose you do an experiment. In the real world, take ten girls or women that you know -- hopefully not coworkers -- and the next time you want to describe something to them that involves one guy losing out, say that the guy got raped. If they don't mind because they can easily obtain a "very basic understanding of the situation", then I am just wrong and I tip my hat to your accurate assessment of the situation. But I'm not going to do that experiment, because I know that I would not have very many female friends who still wanted to talk to me after a few trials. Am I the only one that hears the word "rape" used CONSTANTLY in everyday life in these terms? Maybe it has to do with being in a fraternity, but with PLENTY of sorority (and nonaffiliated girls) around the term is still used frequently. Especially in beer pong. "Dude, we just RAPED their team," "man we just raped face."
I'm not in college anymore; I went to a faggy liberal arts college (so faggy that there were no fraternities) and I heard it in gamer circles but not often outside of that. Now I don't hear it in public ever.
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Only on TL could there be a 26 page discussion on 'rape' in gaming. I love this place.
And as for the topic:
'Rape' is a word that is fully ingrained into the gaming culture. It's different than the classic definition of the word. In gaming it means to completely dominate the opponent. It's close to the classic definition, but it has changed as bit. Language is constantly evolving. And some people just won't be able to deal with that.
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On August 14 2010 08:56 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 08:48 huameng wrote:
Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.
Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?
Because when you call someone a faggot, you aren't just offending the person to whom you are speaking, (which is presumably your goal) but you're offending me, the OP, and a lot of other people as well. Calling someone an asshole doesn't have that effect. Do you not see the hypocrisy in that statement? Who are you to decide which words offend which people?
I didn't decide anything! I just don't know of bystanders being offended by the word "asshole", while I know of many people offended by "faggot". (When not addressed at them) Do you disagree? I know that my anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence but I believe it to be true.
To aex: I'm not sure many people who feel about "asshole" as I do about "faggot" exist, but if they did I would certainly try not to use it either. (I'm not even close to perfect wrt not using such words, but I'm trying) People feeling about "faggot" how I do about "asshole" doesn't really make a difference-- obviously not everything is going to offend everyone.
And I don't think anyone is trying to tell people that they can't say whatever they want, and if they are, well they are just wrong. I'm just saying that I'd like it if you didn't use those words, and I think it could lead to some good things for the community.
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On August 14 2010 08:49 catamorphist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 08:43 Aex wrote:On August 14 2010 08:38 huameng wrote:On August 14 2010 08:08 Aex wrote:On August 14 2010 07:49 huameng wrote:
Would it be incorrect to sum up your views as "I don't care one iota about you, deal with it"?
I think we should care about these people and not use offensive words. I don't get why such a tiny thing that could make so many people hurt less is being resisted so much.
I find a lot of Americans inherently don't like socialism. Thre reason is: "Why should I have to do "insert something here" to benefit someone I don't know or care about?" It sounds selfish when you look at one example in a vacuum. It is just one little word right? Well, there are other words that offend people too. Why should you stop saying one little word that offends people, but be allowed to say other words that offend people? We should stop saying those other words too and make so many more hurt even less. Where should it stop? When do we get to the point where it becomes burdensome? Some people think socialism is good. Some people think socialism is bad. It is basically the root behind this discussion about using one little word. You can agree or disagree with how people feel about it, but that's basically the jist. I'm not trying to generalize this opinion to a philosophy or political system or anything, I'm just trying to solve this specific problem of people being offended by faggot, rape, nigger, etc. And no one thinks you shouldn't be allowed to offend people, or be vulgar. I just think you should try to not offend anyone, at least not anyone who hasn't done anything to deserve it. We, as a community, don't have to draw a line anywhere, but we, as a community, could be a better one by calling people assholes instead of faggots. Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it. Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for? There is not actually a word god telling you that it's OK to use one, but that you will go to hell if you use the other. If you like to be the guy who doesn't give a shit and is totally edgy and if someone thinks otherwise they can fuck off -- then go rape some faggots and forget about it. The point of the post is that when you're sixteen and you grew up on Battle.net and 4chan, sometimes you forget that "rape" and "faggot" and "nigger" offend people in the real world, and you end up insulting a lot of people inadvertently. "Asshole" offends different people, and hell, if you don't want to offend them, then maybe you shouldn't use that word either, huh?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you should or should not use that language. I'm just trying to get people to take a peek at the other side 
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On August 14 2010 09:00 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 08:55 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:50 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:43 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:37 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:33 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote:
there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them. This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point? He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions? The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all. I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context. That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it. OK, well, I propose you do an experiment. In the real world, take ten girls or women that you know -- hopefully not coworkers -- and the next time you want to describe something to them that involves one guy losing out, say that the guy got raped. If they don't mind because they can easily obtain a "very basic understanding of the situation", then I am just wrong and I tip my hat to your accurate assessment of the situation. But I'm not going to do that experiment, because I know that I would not have very many female friends who still wanted to talk to me after a few trials. I get the impression the girls you spend time with are very different from the ones I spend time with.
Coming full circle, the single useful point of the OP was that maybe this is true, and maybe more girls would play games if there wasn't a generally accepted culture of raping faggots in chat.
Is anyone watching GLHF.TV? Socke is clearly an expert at raping faggots judging by the past few games. We should get his opinion.
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United States5162 Posts
On August 14 2010 09:01 huameng wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 08:56 Myles wrote:On August 14 2010 08:48 huameng wrote:
Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.
Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?
Because when you call someone a faggot, you aren't just offending the person to whom you are speaking, (which is presumably your goal) but you're offending me, the OP, and a lot of other people as well. Calling someone an asshole doesn't have that effect. Do you not see the hypocrisy in that statement? Who are you to decide which words offend which people? I didn't decide anything! I just don't know of bystanders being offended by the word "asshole", while I know of many people offended by "faggot". (When not addressed at them) Do you disagree? I know that my anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence but I believe it to be true.
There are people who are offended by curse words in general. I was standing in line having a conversation with a friend(albiet, vulgar conversation which likely included the word asshole) and a lady told me she was offended I was being so rude. The point is that people can be offended by any variety of words and rape is no different. Applying different rules to different words is just setting a double standard.
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On August 14 2010 09:02 catamorphist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 09:00 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:55 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:50 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:43 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:37 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:33 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote:
there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them. This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point? He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions? The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all. I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context. That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it. OK, well, I propose you do an experiment. In the real world, take ten girls or women that you know -- hopefully not coworkers -- and the next time you want to describe something to them that involves one guy losing out, say that the guy got raped. If they don't mind because they can easily obtain a "very basic understanding of the situation", then I am just wrong and I tip my hat to your accurate assessment of the situation. But I'm not going to do that experiment, because I know that I would not have very many female friends who still wanted to talk to me after a few trials. I get the impression the girls you spend time with are very different from the ones I spend time with. Coming full circle, the single useful point of the OP was that maybe this is true, and maybe more girls would play games if there wasn't a generally accepted culture of raping faggots in chat.
Hardly. Casuals start playing by playing single player first, not jumping into online competitive gaming. Most girls don't own a console or gaming PC or buy games like SC not because they dislike the multiplayer aspect, but they dislike gaming in general. Gaming culture has little to nothing to do with it I'd imagine.
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If you think about it ..rape its a pretty poor insult to use if you are trying to insult someone. Most of the kids actually have no clue what that means and others think its a good thing and some day it might even happen to them (like they saw in some crazy ass hentai). <Insert Random guy Here> has no problem with rape, likes it in porn movies, never worries about it, never had a female around him with this problem...so he pretty much doesnt care about it. Its like insulting some one by calling him Rabbit and then mentioning that "rabbit" is a really really bad word in teh fantasy world were you are living in.
The only people you are insulting when you are using the word rape are your mother, your sister, your gran'ma and your female friends (doubtfull you have any if you use the word constantly).
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A word shouldn't offend anyone, especially when it doesn't even mean what offends them. And if it does, well that's too bad.
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United States41931 Posts
On August 14 2010 09:02 catamorphist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 09:00 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:55 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:50 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:43 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:37 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:33 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote:
there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them. This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point? He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions? The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all. I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context. That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it. OK, well, I propose you do an experiment. In the real world, take ten girls or women that you know -- hopefully not coworkers -- and the next time you want to describe something to them that involves one guy losing out, say that the guy got raped. If they don't mind because they can easily obtain a "very basic understanding of the situation", then I am just wrong and I tip my hat to your accurate assessment of the situation. But I'm not going to do that experiment, because I know that I would not have very many female friends who still wanted to talk to me after a few trials. I get the impression the girls you spend time with are very different from the ones I spend time with. Coming full circle, the single useful point of the OP was that maybe this is true, and maybe more girls would play games if there wasn't a generally accepted culture of raping faggots in chat.
Taking an anecdotal sample of girls I am friends with (none of whom have been raped) I can estimate that this would be a deciding factor for a total of none of them. I cannot even begin to empathise with a level of sensitivity in which a person who would otherwise enthusiastically play a game would choose not to because of a word. Girls really aren't all that different from us real people. We're all here in spite of the offensive nature of the internet (which doesn't exclusively offend girls). We could perhaps give them a little credit.
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On August 14 2010 09:05 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 09:02 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 09:00 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:55 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:50 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:43 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:37 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:33 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote:
there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them. This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point? He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions? The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all. I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context. That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it. OK, well, I propose you do an experiment. In the real world, take ten girls or women that you know -- hopefully not coworkers -- and the next time you want to describe something to them that involves one guy losing out, say that the guy got raped. If they don't mind because they can easily obtain a "very basic understanding of the situation", then I am just wrong and I tip my hat to your accurate assessment of the situation. But I'm not going to do that experiment, because I know that I would not have very many female friends who still wanted to talk to me after a few trials. I get the impression the girls you spend time with are very different from the ones I spend time with. Coming full circle, the single useful point of the OP was that maybe this is true, and maybe more girls would play games if there wasn't a generally accepted culture of raping faggots in chat. Hardly. Casuals start playing by playing single player first, not jumping into online competitive gaming. Most girls don't own a console or gaming PC or buy games like SC not because they dislike the multiplayer aspect, but they dislike gaming in general. Gaming culture has little to nothing to do with it I'd imagine.
I agree with you, personally, but the inverse isn't ridiculous; if girls are just dissuaded somewhat from becoming "hardcore" gamers because of the culture, then there's going to be less word-of-mouth encouragement and evangelism coming from girls, and their friends might be less likely to do more gaming themselves. Traditionally, these kinds of gender disparities seem to be vicious cycles, with small discouragements multiplying into big differences.
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On August 14 2010 09:01 huameng wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 08:56 Myles wrote:On August 14 2010 08:48 huameng wrote:
Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.
Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?
Because when you call someone a faggot, you aren't just offending the person to whom you are speaking, (which is presumably your goal) but you're offending me, the OP, and a lot of other people as well. Calling someone an asshole doesn't have that effect. Do you not see the hypocrisy in that statement? Who are you to decide which words offend which people? I didn't decide anything! I just don't know of bystanders being offended by the word "asshole", while I know of many people offended by "faggot". (When not addressed at them) Do you disagree? I know that my anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence but I believe it to be true.
What if someone came up to you and said, the word asshole offends me because I was born with a closed sphincter. That's a completely silly scenario, right? Would you stop using it? What about when that person was no longer in the area? Or would you just dismiss their feelings because you think the reason they are offended is silly? How about the mother, with the gaggle of children at her side, when you nonchalantly called the guy who cut you in line an asshole?
People are going to be offended by vulgar language, and just because one word might offend bystanders than another word, doesn't mean it is better to use the "less offensive" offensive word. There is no gray area. You cannot use offensive language and not be offensive to some bystander somewhere.
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On August 14 2010 09:04 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 09:01 huameng wrote:On August 14 2010 08:56 Myles wrote:On August 14 2010 08:48 huameng wrote:
Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.
Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?
Because when you call someone a faggot, you aren't just offending the person to whom you are speaking, (which is presumably your goal) but you're offending me, the OP, and a lot of other people as well. Calling someone an asshole doesn't have that effect. Do you not see the hypocrisy in that statement? Who are you to decide which words offend which people? I didn't decide anything! I just don't know of bystanders being offended by the word "asshole", while I know of many people offended by "faggot". (When not addressed at them) Do you disagree? I know that my anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence but I believe it to be true. There are people who are offended by curse words in general. I was standing in line having a conversation with a friend(albiet, vulgar conversation which likely included the word asshole) and a lady told me she was offended I was being so rude. The point is that people can be offended by any variety of words and rape is no different. Applying different rules to different words is just setting a double standard.
Well, I say let's try not to offend her either. Everyone is going to have a different point at which they draw the line and decide the requests are ridiculous-- I'm not trying to apply a rule to any words. I just want people to know "lots of people are offended by faggot, rape, etc" and with this knowledge I think fewer people will use those words. If you still want to, it's totally fine.
I think this mostly addresses your post as well aex-- everyone at some point, doesn't care about your sphincter at all and chooses to offend the 62 people with such a terrible, terrible condition. I am taking up this case specifically because I think lots of people use words like faggot and rape, but wouldn't do so if they realized how many people they were offending. If someone know about that, and still wants to use those words, I think no one should force them to do otherwise.
Also yeah I edit a lot >_<
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On August 14 2010 09:01 huameng wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 08:56 Myles wrote:On August 14 2010 08:48 huameng wrote:
Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.
Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?
Because when you call someone a faggot, you aren't just offending the person to whom you are speaking, (which is presumably your goal) but you're offending me, the OP, and a lot of other people as well. Calling someone an asshole doesn't have that effect. Do you not see the hypocrisy in that statement? Who are you to decide which words offend which people? I didn't decide anything! I just don't know of bystanders being offended by the word "asshole", while I know of many people offended by "faggot". (When not addressed at them) Do you disagree? I know that my anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence but I believe it to be true. To aex: I'm not sure many people who feel about "asshole" as I do about "faggot" exist, but if they did I would certainly try not to use it either. (I'm not even close to perfect wrt not using such words, but I'm trying) People feeling about "faggot" how I do about "asshole" doesn't really make a difference-- obviously not everything is going to offend everyone. And I don't think anyone is trying to tell people that they can't say whatever they want, and if they are, well they are just wrong. I'm just saying that I'd like it if you didn't use those words, and I think it could lead to some good things for the community.
Ahh, I didn't catch your edit in time. I agree, that if people didn't use offensive language it could lead to some good things for the community, but sometimes it is fun to rile up your opponent and those around you with some good ole' fashion terribly crude smack talk.
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EPT
