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On August 14 2010 09:04 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 09:01 huameng wrote:On August 14 2010 08:56 Myles wrote:On August 14 2010 08:48 huameng wrote:
Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.
Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?
Because when you call someone a faggot, you aren't just offending the person to whom you are speaking, (which is presumably your goal) but you're offending me, the OP, and a lot of other people as well. Calling someone an asshole doesn't have that effect. Do you not see the hypocrisy in that statement? Who are you to decide which words offend which people? I didn't decide anything! I just don't know of bystanders being offended by the word "asshole", while I know of many people offended by "faggot". (When not addressed at them) Do you disagree? I know that my anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence but I believe it to be true. There are people who are offended by curse words in general. I was standing in line having a conversation with a friend(albiet, vulgar conversation which likely included the word asshole) and a lady told me she was offended I was being so rude. The point is that people can be offended by any variety of words and rape is no different. Applying different rules to different words is just setting a double standard.
If the word asshole offends her maybe she should just lock herself in her house and remove all forms of media.
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On August 14 2010 04:01 KwarK wrote:
Edit: Stealing a way better example made later in the topic. Beat clearly has a negative meaning in domestic violence. Wife beating and physical child abuse are more common than rape and are extremely damaging. That does not mean we should stop using beat as a synonym for win.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
Agreed. Gamer jargon is the way it is for a reason. When gamers or commentators say rape they mean 'had their way with'. It is an easy to understand meaning and just as easy to say. People who are offended deserve to be.
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I think there's a big difference between being directly attacked and indirectly seeing it.
For instance let's take the Chinese word for "that," which is pronounced (in some accents, anyways) "ne-ga."
This can be construed to sound like the word "nigga," which can be considered offensive.
When a Chinese person is trying to explain what he wants to do/eat/w/e, he/she may say something like "nega... nega... nega..."
Now let's say a white person walks on by and upon hearing the word is offended. He/she demands for the Chinese person to stop this offensive language.
Who is in the wrong here?
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On August 14 2010 09:07 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 09:02 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 09:00 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:55 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:50 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:43 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:37 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:33 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote:
there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them. This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point? He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions? The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all. I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context. That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it. OK, well, I propose you do an experiment. In the real world, take ten girls or women that you know -- hopefully not coworkers -- and the next time you want to describe something to them that involves one guy losing out, say that the guy got raped. If they don't mind because they can easily obtain a "very basic understanding of the situation", then I am just wrong and I tip my hat to your accurate assessment of the situation. But I'm not going to do that experiment, because I know that I would not have very many female friends who still wanted to talk to me after a few trials. I get the impression the girls you spend time with are very different from the ones I spend time with. Coming full circle, the single useful point of the OP was that maybe this is true, and maybe more girls would play games if there wasn't a generally accepted culture of raping faggots in chat. Taking an anecdotal sample of girls I am friends with (none of whom have been raped) I can estimate that this would be a deciding factor for a total of none of them. I cannot even begin to empathise with a level of sensitivity in which a person who would otherwise enthusiastically play a game would choose not to because of a word. Girls really aren't all that different from us real people. We're all here in spite of the offensive nature of the internet (which doesn't exclusively offend girls). We could perhaps give them a little credit.
I'm not offended by jack shit, so it's hard for me to empathize with people who are. But that doesn't seem particularly ridiculous to me. If you're saying that people who make social decisions based on whether people have tact and class, and are thoughtful, or whether they're unnecessarily rude, aren't "real" people for being so sensitive, then sign me up as being a pussy. If I had friends who yammered on about raping faggots in real life, in the presence of other people, I would get new friends, and I'm not even offended by it; I just think it's embarrassing. (I don't care about it online under a pseudonym, because I don't usually have any interest in making friends online.)
I guess it's going to be hard for us to agree, because I don't find that strange at all.
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On August 14 2010 09:22 Caller wrote:
I think there's a big difference between being directly attacked and indirectly seeing it.
For instance let's take the Chinese word for "that," which is pronounced (in some accents, anyways) "ne-ga."
This can be construed to sound like the word "nigga," which can be considered offensive.
When a Chinese person is trying to explain what he wants to do/eat/w/e, he/she may say something like "nega... nega... nega..."
Now let's say a white person walks on by and upon hearing the word is offended. He/she demands for the Chinese person to stop this offensive language.
Who is in the wrong here?
I used to tell my mom she said "nigga nigga nigga" a lot as a kid, and she always got frustrated and said she said no such thing ever and that it was inappropriate ahha.
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did you beat him? (assault)
did you own him? (enslave)
What a gay build!
That's crazy\insane!
If we reacted like this to everything life would suck. For those who are affected, sorry but too bad.
edit: i had some older uptight-looking guy rant at me and friends for using "hate speech" all night, we said...damn...and crap i think, we were pretty low key...i think he may have been schizo or just insane.
Uptight people will react that way regardless of what you say, if you tone it down they will just tone it up. if you give ground they will want more.
As for those with trauma, im sorry but i will use those words, i think this video has a good explanation.
http://www.youtube.com/user/louisck#p/u/6/v-55wC5dEnc
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United States44316 Posts
On August 14 2010 09:22 catamorphist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 09:07 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 09:02 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 09:00 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:55 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:50 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:43 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:37 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:33 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote:
there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them. This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point? He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions? The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all. I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context. That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it. OK, well, I propose you do an experiment. In the real world, take ten girls or women that you know -- hopefully not coworkers -- and the next time you want to describe something to them that involves one guy losing out, say that the guy got raped. If they don't mind because they can easily obtain a "very basic understanding of the situation", then I am just wrong and I tip my hat to your accurate assessment of the situation. But I'm not going to do that experiment, because I know that I would not have very many female friends who still wanted to talk to me after a few trials. I get the impression the girls you spend time with are very different from the ones I spend time with. Coming full circle, the single useful point of the OP was that maybe this is true, and maybe more girls would play games if there wasn't a generally accepted culture of raping faggots in chat. Taking an anecdotal sample of girls I am friends with (none of whom have been raped) I can estimate that this would be a deciding factor for a total of none of them. I cannot even begin to empathise with a level of sensitivity in which a person who would otherwise enthusiastically play a game would choose not to because of a word. Girls really aren't all that different from us real people. We're all here in spite of the offensive nature of the internet (which doesn't exclusively offend girls). We could perhaps give them a little credit. I'm not offended by jack shit, so it's hard for me to empathize with people who are. But that doesn't seem particularly ridiculous to me. If you're saying that people who make social decisions based on whether people have tact and class, and are thoughtful, or whether they're unnecessarily rude, aren't "real" people for being so sensitive, then sign me up as being a pussy. If I had friends who yammered on about raping faggots in real life, in the presence of other people, I would get new friends, and I'm not even offended by it; I just think it's embarrassing. (I don't care about it online under a pseudonym, because I don't usually have any interest in making friends online.) I guess it's going to be hard for us to agree, because I don't find that strange at all.
My use of the words real people was intended to suggest that rather than girls being some alien being with unique issues who should treated carefully they're pretty much like everyone else. If you're capable of dealing with the internet then most girls probably are too.
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On August 14 2010 09:22 Caller wrote:
I think there's a big difference between being directly attacked and indirectly seeing it.
For instance let's take the Chinese word for "that," which is pronounced (in some accents, anyways) "ne-ga."
This can be construed to sound like the word "nigga," which can be considered offensive.
When a Chinese person is trying to explain what he wants to do/eat/w/e, he/she may say something like "nega... nega... nega..."
Now let's say a white person walks on by and upon hearing the word is offended. He/she demands for the Chinese person to stop this offensive language.
Who is in the wrong here?
When something happens, you don't have to point at someone and tell them they are in the wrong. The white guy is a little bit ignorant, he'd probably be happier if he was less nosy, and he's a stubborn bastard too if the Chinese fellow explains it and he's still irritated. But nobody has committed some mortal sin here. The white guy has the God-given right to be offended at whatever the hell he wants, and the Chinese guy can feel free to go on not giving a shit until the day he dies.
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On August 14 2010 07:25 Believer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 07:21 sadyque wrote:On August 14 2010 07:13 toadstool wrote:
Let's take Merry Christmas and Santa Clause out of our culture and Starcraft 2 as well!
because ... God forbid...
Somebody might get offended! We are not talking about somebody. We are talking about aprox 50% or something of the worlds population (women). Go ask your mother or your sister if she feels offended about you using the word rape repeatedly on the internetz. Then ask them if they have a problem with Santa Clause.... So how do you think you handled that argument? Only women can get raped? I bet all the men who have been raped are offended by that statement. Do you see what you are doing? By restricting other peoples use of words you are even offending people with your own words. There is nothing anybody can say that someone can't find offensive. Just stop trying to make people say things that YOU can tolerate.
Exactly. You are making a very broad statement by saying EVERY woman in the world would be offended by the word rape.
Your mother and your sister might get offended. But my mom and sister might not be offended. They'll just shrug and be whatever, and go wash the dishes or something.
(that was a joke btw)
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On August 14 2010 09:25 KwarK wrote:
My use of the words real people was intended to suggest that rather than girls being some alien being with unique issues who should treated carefully they're pretty much like everyone else. If you're capable of dealing with the internet then most girls probably are too.
Well, if you really want to go down that route, I'd be happy to claim that many guys probably stay away from gamers who frequently do the rape-faggot-nigger thing too. However, I suspect that more guys tend to think that sort of language is macho and edgy, and don't mind tolerating it or adopting it themselves.
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Mod edit: 1984ed to keep the topic on topic
User was banned for this post.
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On August 14 2010 09:29 tryTRY wrote:
Mod edit: 1984ed to keep the topic on topic
wtf
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United States5162 Posts
On August 14 2010 09:11 huameng wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 09:04 Myles wrote:On August 14 2010 09:01 huameng wrote:On August 14 2010 08:56 Myles wrote:On August 14 2010 08:48 huameng wrote:
Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.
Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?
Because when you call someone a faggot, you aren't just offending the person to whom you are speaking, (which is presumably your goal) but you're offending me, the OP, and a lot of other people as well. Calling someone an asshole doesn't have that effect. Do you not see the hypocrisy in that statement? Who are you to decide which words offend which people? I didn't decide anything! I just don't know of bystanders being offended by the word "asshole", while I know of many people offended by "faggot". (When not addressed at them) Do you disagree? I know that my anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence but I believe it to be true. There are people who are offended by curse words in general. I was standing in line having a conversation with a friend(albiet, vulgar conversation which likely included the word asshole) and a lady told me she was offended I was being so rude. The point is that people can be offended by any variety of words and rape is no different. Applying different rules to different words is just setting a double standard. Well, I say let's try not to offend her either. Everyone is going to have a different point at which they draw the line and decide the requests are ridiculous-- I'm not trying to apply a rule to any words. I just want people to know "lots of people are offended by faggot, rape, etc" and with this knowledge I think fewer people will use those words. If you still want to, it's totally fine. I think this mostly addresses your post as well aex-- everyone at some point, doesn't care about your sphincter at all and chooses to offend the 62 people with such a terrible, terrible condition. I am taking up this case specifically because I think lots of people use words like faggot and rape, but wouldn't do so if they realized how many people they were offending. If someone know about that, and still wants to use those words, I think no one should force them to do otherwise. Also yeah I edit a lot >_<
I don't have a problem with wanting people to be courteous, but I think everyone would be so much happier if they didn't get offended by things not directed at them. I understand that shit happens and people have emotional reactions to things. I just hate how with the propagation of political correctness everyone seems to have some expection of a right not to be offended.
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I don't see this guy talking about how gamers love "nigger". Just stfu and don't take it so fucking seriously. If a girl got raped?-who seriously gives a fuck. What do you do to a girl whose been raped; put her up on a pedastool? S.T.F.U. If you said "haha i just abused that kid". And your best friend freaks out because he was beaten as a child should we stop using ALL INSULTS ON THE INTERNET? This was a pointless read imHo.
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If a girl may be present, then I wouldn't say "rape." If I know it's just guys, then I could care less. As for stuff like "gay..." unless I'm directly talking to one then I really wouldn't care. For instance, if gays started using "straight" in a derogatory way, then I would have to be an idiot to get worked up over it. Who cares?
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Luckly most of the world and the internet doesn't have to abide by such ideas of avoiding the use of words we do not like. While I can understand why you and others would not want to use the word and its not even a phrase I use I'll fight for a persons right to say it. You can get offended that's fine but don't expect the world or people to bend around to please you. It's just not how I feel things should work.
*shrug* However feel free to plug in the phrase "complete and total parnage" when demeaning a player. I think it has a good ring to it.
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Interesting thread. Definitely much more interesting than your average OP. Congrats!
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On August 14 2010 09:25 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 09:22 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 09:07 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 09:02 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 09:00 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:55 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:50 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:43 catamorphist wrote:On August 14 2010 08:37 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2010 08:33 catamorphist wrote:
[quote]
This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point? He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions? The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all. I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context. That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it. OK, well, I propose you do an experiment. In the real world, take ten girls or women that you know -- hopefully not coworkers -- and the next time you want to describe something to them that involves one guy losing out, say that the guy got raped. If they don't mind because they can easily obtain a "very basic understanding of the situation", then I am just wrong and I tip my hat to your accurate assessment of the situation. But I'm not going to do that experiment, because I know that I would not have very many female friends who still wanted to talk to me after a few trials. I get the impression the girls you spend time with are very different from the ones I spend time with. Coming full circle, the single useful point of the OP was that maybe this is true, and maybe more girls would play games if there wasn't a generally accepted culture of raping faggots in chat. Taking an anecdotal sample of girls I am friends with (none of whom have been raped) I can estimate that this would be a deciding factor for a total of none of them. I cannot even begin to empathise with a level of sensitivity in which a person who would otherwise enthusiastically play a game would choose not to because of a word. Girls really aren't all that different from us real people. We're all here in spite of the offensive nature of the internet (which doesn't exclusively offend girls). We could perhaps give them a little credit. I'm not offended by jack shit, so it's hard for me to empathize with people who are. But that doesn't seem particularly ridiculous to me. If you're saying that people who make social decisions based on whether people have tact and class, and are thoughtful, or whether they're unnecessarily rude, aren't "real" people for being so sensitive, then sign me up as being a pussy. If I had friends who yammered on about raping faggots in real life, in the presence of other people, I would get new friends, and I'm not even offended by it; I just think it's embarrassing. (I don't care about it online under a pseudonym, because I don't usually have any interest in making friends online.) I guess it's going to be hard for us to agree, because I don't find that strange at all. My use of the words real people was intended to suggest that rather than girls being some alien being with unique issues who should treated carefully they're pretty much like everyone else. If you're capable of dealing with the internet then most girls probably are too.
Men get raped too.
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I'm sorry, but I had to smile a bit at the ones trying to argue with "if we wouldn't say 'rape' there'd be more gurls on the internets/gaming scene". Would you want random girls in the locker room after your [insert any sports]-game while you're celebrating with your teammates or cursing like mad depending on whether you lost or won?
Maybe you'd be cool with certain ones, those who don't get offended by graphic language and testosterone filled atmosphere, but oh wait, these kinda girls are already on the internet and some of them take part in the gaming scene. I wouldn't want hundreds or thousands of random chicks invading TL, making it a less manlier place. Look at what happens when NeverGG goes on one of her oestrogen trips rofl
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On August 14 2010 09:25 catamorphist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 09:22 Caller wrote:
I think there's a big difference between being directly attacked and indirectly seeing it.
For instance let's take the Chinese word for "that," which is pronounced (in some accents, anyways) "ne-ga."
This can be construed to sound like the word "nigga," which can be considered offensive.
When a Chinese person is trying to explain what he wants to do/eat/w/e, he/she may say something like "nega... nega... nega..."
Now let's say a white person walks on by and upon hearing the word is offended. He/she demands for the Chinese person to stop this offensive language.
Who is in the wrong here? When something happens, you don't have to point at someone and tell them they are in the wrong. The white guy is a little bit ignorant, he'd probably be happier if he was less nosy, and he's a stubborn bastard too if the Chinese fellow explains it and he's still irritated. But nobody has committed some mortal sin here. The white guy has the God-given right to be offended at whatever the hell he wants, and the Chinese guy can feel free to go on not giving a shit until the day he dies.
precisely.
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EPT
