And it's not just immature idiots and kids that seem so preoccupied with the word. I've heard MLG commentators almost say it.
I can tell that he doesn't mean to use it, but I have even caught Day9 using the word during casts. Always with a slight hesitation and barely noticeable "oops expression" afterwards. I don't mean to call him out here, but I think it illustrates my point.
When you call people on it the response is always the same, "well we're not talking about 'real' rape, it's just an expression."
I want every one to understand what that word means to people. To those who have had personal experience with rape (I am not such a person btw) it brings to mind horrid memories, horrific thoughts of powerlessness; intense agony and pain.
What's worse, when the word is used in passing by ignorant gamers it cheapens its meaning, it is as if you're saying, "oh this isn't a big deal at all."
I knew a girl (a rape victim) who used to become enraged when my gamer friends would talk about "raping each other."
And they would say "sorry, I didn't mean to; I meant to say I owned him"
And she would say "It makes me really sad that that means the same thing."
And we wonder why women don't want to join our communities and play us?
Now I know a lot of people will think they are being clever when they reply to this thread and say "yeah I hate rape let's rape rape." Or make some other idiotic comment which only reinforces my point. Please don't be one of those idiots.
Understand how it makes our community look from the outside, and how it makes gamers as a whole look to the rest of the world. We do not have to stoop so low just to have fun.
So this is just an open letter to TL and really all of gaming. Stop using this word, there are many substitutes which are much less abhorrent. Please understand that rape is a real problem, a real issue, and that it is an emotionally charged word that can cause real emotional damage to those who hear.
There is no justification and no excuse for the use of this word in the flippant way that it is thrown around. Just stop.
On August 14 2010 choboPEon wrote
I'm all for removing words like rape and faggot and have been for a while. There are so many good, colorful curse words to use that don't recall terrible things like that. But people seem quite set on raping faggots.
Rape is a specific, terrible act that a lot of women suffer silently from. Slaughter is something cows go through before we eat steak. In gaming, rape means to utterly and completely dominate, not unlike the sexual meaning at all.
Only tiny minority or people associate the word rape with sexual assault? Come on, man. Come the fuck on.
This is nothing like the word niggardly being called racist because thats fucking stupid but associating the word rape with sexual assault is so completely understandable that it boggles the mind that someone would deny it.
On August 14 2010 neohero9 wrote: The amount of resistance to changing a single word in one's vocabulary to one which doesn't make people weep hysterically because of trauma, BECAUSE it makes people weep hysterically because of TRAUMA, is amazing.
It's not "something bad that happened to them". Being punched in the face in a barfight is something bad; dropping a hammer on your toe is something bad.
Having someone forcefully shove their cock inside of you AGAINST YOUR WILL is beyond "something bad".
TO BE CLEAR (Since MANY TLers seem to have misunderstood): I am not saying you should be banned for using the word, I am not trying to police your use of the word, I am only asking that you be more mindful of your use of the word and perhaps think twice before you doing so because of the pain and suffering it can cause people and because it makes our community look like a bunch of IDIOTS. That is all.
Hear, hear. Good OP with a good message. Especially the commentators and writers here on TL should refrain from using the term to set a good example. Other people can be warned - the same way as we have a pretty clean forum when it comes to proper language.
Edit: Stealing a way better example made later in the topic. Beat clearly has a negative meaning in domestic violence. Wife beating and physical child abuse are more common than rape and are extremely damaging. That does not mean we should stop using beat as a synonym for win.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
On August 14 2010 04:01 Dance. wrote: It's kind of like "faggot" and that South Park episode. We define it differently, but we understand what we mean.
I understand where you're coming from. I have a handful of female friends who have been raped, and the word is a very sensitive word to them.
I think what drives gamers to use it is the fact that there is no more brutal monosyllabic word in the English language. The concept itself is the nullification of freedom and suppression of resistance, and it signifies a conquest over another person unmatched by any other act.
If this is to stop, there needs to be introduced a new word to use that's easy to use, just as brutal, but doesn't have the psychological scarring associated with it that "rape" does.
I agree with your sentiment, and I really do think it will make a difference in a mature community like TL. Sadly, similar to "fag", "rape" will continue to be used by idiots on the internet hiding behind their veil of anonymity, basically until the end of time.
It's reasons like these that I wish Blizzard's realID feature had actually gone through. (I know, I'm one of the weird minority of people that actually liked it)
On August 14 2010 04:01 KwarK wrote: He's slaughtering those zealots could be offensive to victims of genocide.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
The word niggardly isn't racist? -.-
*looks it up*
oh, haha
but anyways I absolutely agree with your post there and very eloquently put I might add
Well I hate to come off as callous and a complete asshole, but my personal philosophy is that language only has whatever meaning you assign to it. When people use the term "rape" as in to "utterly own their opponent", that is just them using language to communicate their apparent superiority. They are not saying they are actually forcibly raping them, and if they use rape in that sense then it would be a physical threat and then there is reason for concern. I feel the same about all words, including all racial slurs and use of language like "gay", or "retard".
Ultimately telling people not to use a word is not going to change a thing. It's the sentiment behind it that matters. Telling people to stop saying they're "raping" their opponent because it conjures up images of actual rape is if anything hurting the situation. You want to disassociate those meanings from one another, not intertwine them.
IIRC western countries are democracies with laws regarding free speech.
If you don't like people saying the word rape that's your perogative and I respect that, but frankly everyone has a different opinion on everything (from swear words, racial slurs, and acts of violence). To attempt to impose your own viewpoint on a large community seems arrogant.
Wow. A good point. It is a real strong word that is tossed around like a popcorn. I should be careful with that too, now.
Real good of you to post this to make us be more aware of our gamer image. If we wanted to make eSport happen here (everywhere else than Korea), stuff like this has to go. And we as individuals should contribute by watching our silly mouth. lol
It's connotatively completely different. I understand it can upset some people, but there are certain points where I'm going to stop worrying about things for fear of hurting certain minority of peoples. Honestly, this is just another thread preaching political correctness. While I think it has its merits, I think we've all gone overboard on trying to prevent people from having to moderate everything they say because it might be offensive.
I think I have to agree with what you are saying, the word 'rape' shouldn't be used when commenting on gaming. However it is, and while this thread may get a handful of people within the gaming community to think twice before doing it, the word will still be used casually by gamers. The best way to stop people from using it is to introduce another word that makes the old one go out of style until it were second nature for people to just use "owned" or something.
Even then, there are gamers, who when they get mad start being antisemitic and will try to use the most vulgar word choice possible.
It's a sad state but at least there aren't many female gamers so the percentage of people who have to cringe every time they hear the word is really low. Commentators especially, should try to use words like these as little as possible.
I think you have a valid point and casters should do their best to avoid using it to give e-sports a better name. However having this battle over words will be futile for better or worse. People will continue to use it regardless.
I don't have a problem with the word on the internet, but sometimes people tend to use the word without recognizing the audience they're speaking in front of. Even in school I've had situations where someone pissed off a teacher by saying "gay" or "rape" nonchalantly.
Its too embbed to the gaming culture to be removed so its pointless.
Its like say "man dt rushes is so gay". I tried to stop but I couldn't stop using the word gay either. Everyone knows what the actual word means and what gamer definition means. Now if you got someone who is gay or who has been raped then don't use it in front of them. Also remember not to use retarded because that is a word that can affect the mentally challenged. We can keep going on. There is no end... Find this post's idea is right but pointless.
This is something we used to get away with because the SC community was tiny. Now that real sponsors watch casts and read news updates its going to slowly die because its terrible publicity for what we do.
On August 14 2010 04:01 KwarK wrote: He's slaughtering those zealots could be offensive to victims of genocide.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
In the OP's example, saying "I totally owned that fucker" instead of rape would be emotionally charged to anyone who has ever been enslaved (and then called a fucker). Also, in this example, the gamer is putting a bullet through someone's head lol
Maybe your lady friend is still getting through her trauma, that doesn't mean we're evil.
Couldn't "owned" also be construed as negatively affecting people who's ancestors were slaves? That's essentially what the meaning is, "I dominated you, you're my bitch, etc." Not only slaves, but those who were kidnapped, oppressed, etc. It's just too much to worry about when it's not even being used in that manner, imo.
I agree that the word 'rape' itself is a very strong word that can be very offensive to many people. Rape itself is one of the most despicable acts for a human being. However, our generation and especially the gaming community takes these words out of connotation and have used it so much that it is desensitized. But I don't know if this is going to change any time soon.
On August 14 2010 04:00 Emon_ wrote: Here, here. Good OP with a good message. Especially the commentators and writers here on TL should refrain from using the term to set a good example. Other people can be warned - the same way as we have a pretty clean forum when it comes to proper language.
It's "hear, hear" =)
The word rape is definitely thrown around too much, but the majority of gaming will still keep using that word...
When gamers throw words like rape and fag around, it is not used literally. Gamer culture is easily the most vindictive, adolescent culture out there - that is despite the large population of intelligent people that play. While theses words (among others) hold strong emotional ties to awful acts of human indecency, the gaming community uses them in much more playful way - although, there are a-holes out there like anything.
But really though, gamers have to use strong words to talk trash and invoke anger in their opponents (if that is part of their game plan) because the only thing they are is words on a screen - sarcasm has its limitations, tone and inflection don't exist, and body language can't be seen. I know it sounds like I'm defending these words, but truthgully I don't particularly care for them. I just understand why we use them and the reality that abolishing them from the gaming world is unlikely.
On August 14 2010 04:04 sikyon wrote: IIRC western countries are democracies with laws regarding free speech.
If you don't like people saying the word rape that's your perogative and I respect that, but frankly everyone has a different opinion on everything (from swear words, racial slurs, and acts of violence). To attempt to impose your own viewpoint on a large community seems arrogant.
Free speech has nothing to do with my point whatsoever. Free speech refers to governments restricting your right to speak in a certain way. I am certainly not advocating that.
I am not asking the moderation staff to 'crack down'', and I am not asking you to be banned for your words. I am pointing out to people why they shouldn't use a certain word and I am hoping that TL is smart enough to understand why I am right (and yes, I am 100% right.)
I am asking people to be more mindful of the words they are using, that is all.
(Also note that free speech has no bearing on TL whatsoever; it is a private organization and can moderate as it sees fit although I do not expect them to moderate according to my beliefs.)
Edit: Also note, saying that "owned" is analagous to "slavery" is a stretch to say the least, saying "rape" is analagous to... "rape" is probably less of a stretch, no?
On August 14 2010 04:04 sikyon wrote: IIRC western countries are democracies with laws regarding free speech.
If you don't like people saying the word rape that's your perogative and I respect that, but frankly everyone has a different opinion on everything (from swear words, racial slurs, and acts of violence). To attempt to impose your own viewpoint on a large community seems arrogant.
Free speech is great for having an argument and making a point, like OP is doing. Think about what you're gonna say for 2 days and make a topic - brilliant. But using a term that has such a negative meaning, and defending it with free speech isn't the same thing. It's mean and immature. People are being hurt by the usage of the term, and it sends a negative signals about the community. Though we can't change it everywhere, we can at least make an effort here on TL.
Personally I always thought "gay" or "fag" was the worst one, as it's the most personal. Like, saying that you raped someone in a game is just using the word for a different but similar meaning. Whereas calling something "gay" because you don't like it no doubt makes a gay person feel like you don't like them (unless they are understanding).
However, this generally doesn't stop me from calling things "gay", because it's other people's jobs to be understanding.
Words are not the same as the action they imply. Get over it. Fearing words makes us look like a bunch of children. Use the power of your brain and context to determine what is worth complaining about. Originally, the word rape had nothing to do with sex.
I'm sick of people censoring my fucking dictionary.
Words are not the same as the action they imply. Get over it. Fearing words makes us look like a bunch of children. Use the power of your brain and context to determine what is worth complaining about. Originally, the word rape had nothing to do with sex.
I'm sick of people censoring my fucking dictionary.
Believe it or not, real people are victims of rape. You're right, it has nothing to do with sex, but it has a lot to do with a real kind of hell. People who have been through that kind of stuff do not need to be reminded of it every time they watch a piece of StarCraft 2 broadcasting.
This exact issue came up in my head recently, so I decided not to use the word rape when gaming around women. But it's still in my vernacular when alone or just gaming with friends.
On August 14 2010 04:08 xbankx wrote: Its too embbed to the gaming culture to be removed so its pointless.
Its like say "man dt rushes is so gay". I tried to stop but I couldn't stop using the word gay either. Everyone knows what the actual word means and what gamer definition means. Now if you got someone who is gay or who has been raped then don't use it in front of them. Also remember not to use retarded because that is a word that can affect the mentally challenged. We can keep going on. There is no end... Find this post's idea is right but pointless.
Actually retarded is the short hand way of the actual medical condition, it's only recently people started saying (Retarded Sarah Palin for example) that retarded should be regarded as "only people who are affected by this should be allow to say it". Which is pretty retarded
EDIT:
I am not asking the moderation staff to 'crack down'', and I am not asking you to be banned for your words. I am pointing out to people why they shouldn't use a certain word and I am hoping that TL is smart enough to understand why I am right (and yes, I am 100% right.)
Really 100%? That's converting your opinion in to fact, which is a pretty big fallacy that invalidates your argument. In fact by saying that, it seems more like you're trying to troll us than actually trying to convince us.
On August 14 2010 04:04 sikyon wrote: IIRC western countries are democracies with laws regarding free speech.
If you don't like people saying the word rape that's your perogative and I respect that, but frankly everyone has a different opinion on everything (from swear words, racial slurs, and acts of violence). To attempt to impose your own viewpoint on a large community seems arrogant.
Free speech is great for having an argument and making a point, like OP is doing. Think about what you're gonna say for 2 days and make a topic - brilliant. More of this is welcome. But using a term that has such a negative meaning, and defending it with free speech isn't the same thing. It's mean and immature. People are being hurt by the usage of the term, and it sends very negative signals about the community. Though we can't change it everywhere, we can at least make an effort here on TL.
Someone somewhere is hurt by just about everything. At some point you have to draw the line and say that no offense was intended and that they need to get over their own issues. As was pointed out earlier, owning someone could be conceivably misconstrued as a mocking reference to slavery.
To be clear: I am not asking any body to censor any thing, I am asking people to be more intelligent and mindful of their words.
If we decide as a community that "nigger" isn't racist any more because to 'us' it means "bad player" does that mean we get to say it whenever we want and if people get offended they should just "grow up?"
Clearly words have an extended meaning beyond what we decide they mean within OUR community. There is a world outside TL and you should understand that even WITHIN this community there are people whose lives have been touched by rape and the damage it causes.
On August 14 2010 03:56 SpicyCrab wrote: Gamers love rape.
I'm all for removing words like rape and faggot and have been for a while. There are so many good, colorful curse words to use that don't recall terrible things like that. But people seem quite set on raping faggots.
He's slaughtering those zealots could be offensive to victims of genocide.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
Ridiculous first sentence. Rape is a specific, terrible act that a lot of women suffer silently from. Slaughter is something cows go through before we eat steak. In gaming, rape means to utterly and completely dominate, not unlike the sexual meaning at all.
Only tiny minority or people associate the word rape with sexual assault? Come on, man. Come the fuck on.
This is nothing like the word niggardly being called racist because thats fucking stupid but associating the word rape with sexual assault is so completely understandable that it boggles the mind that someone would deny it.
I know the OP has good intentions, but as others such as Kwark,Chancho and Kev have pointed out, he is just wrong. Just because someone has an uneducated view of what the word rape means, doesnt mean I should restrict my vocabulary to not offend that person.
On August 14 2010 04:03 neohero9 wrote:... I understand where you're coming from. I have a handful of female friends who have been raped, and the word is a very sensitive word to them....
On August 14 2010 04:15 SpicyCrab wrote: To be clear: I am not asking any body to censor any thing, I am asking people to be more intelligent and mindful of their words.
If we decide as a community that "nigger" isn't racist any more because to 'us' it means "bad player" does that mean we get to say it whenever we want and if people get offended they should just "grow up?"
Clearly words have an extended meaning beyond what we decide they mean within OUR community. There is a world outside TL and you should understand that even WITHIN this community there are people whose lives have been touched by rape and the damage it causes.
Maybe it's time for YOU to grow up?
Your argument is that we should censor our language so people who don't understand it might not be victims of their own ignorance?
On August 14 2010 04:04 sikyon wrote: IIRC western countries are democracies with laws regarding free speech.
If you don't like people saying the word rape that's your perogative and I respect that, but frankly everyone has a different opinion on everything (from swear words, racial slurs, and acts of violence). To attempt to impose your own viewpoint on a large community seems arrogant.
Free speech is great for having an argument and making a point, like OP is doing. Think about what you're gonna say for 2 days and make a topic - brilliant. More of this is welcome. But using a term that has such a negative meaning, and defending it with free speech isn't the same thing. It's mean and immature. People are being hurt by the usage of the term, and it sends very negative signals about the community. Though we can't change it everywhere, we can at least make an effort here on TL.
Someone somewhere is hurt by just about everything. At some point you have to draw the line and say that no offense was intended and that they need to get over their own issues. As was pointed out earlier, owning someone could be conceivably misconstrued as a mocking reference to slavery.
It could be but its not. For a second, out of your hypothetical defense and realize that in the real world, rape implies sexual assault. When people make forum posts about being raped in game and then in the next sentence talk about being forcibly bent over a table and having dicks stuck into them, it is not some coincidence. It is because rape means rape, even in gaming.
On August 14 2010 04:04 sikyon wrote: IIRC western countries are democracies with laws regarding free speech.
If you don't like people saying the word rape that's your perogative and I respect that, but frankly everyone has a different opinion on everything (from swear words, racial slurs, and acts of violence). To attempt to impose your own viewpoint on a large community seems arrogant.
Free speech has nothing to do with my point whatsoever. Free speech refers to governments restricting your right to speak in a certain way. I am certainly not advocating that.
I am not asking the moderation staff to 'crack down'', and I am not asking you to be banned for your words. I am pointing out to people why they shouldn't use a certain word and I am hoping that TL is smart enough to understand why I am right (and yes, I am 100% right.)
I am asking people to be more mindful of the words they are using, that is all.
(Also note that free speech has no bearing on TL whatsoever; it is a private organization and can moderate as it sees fit although I do not expect them to moderate according to my beliefs.)
Edit: Also note, saying that "owned" is analagous to "slavery" is a stretch to say the least, saying "rape" is analagous to... "rape" is probably less of a stretch, no?
It's just that there are *so* many things you need to be mindful of, there's a point where you stop worrying about offending every particular minority out there. And trust me, there are a ton of them that feel their points are just as valid (although I'd say you'd be hard pressed to find one as valid as "rape" for rape victims). I can understand being mindful of what you say, for example, when you know someone who has been raped (aka your gaming friends and rape victim friend), but when you have no reason to think so, I feel there is very little reason to try to watch out for offending such minorities of people. I'm not going to refrain from saying "God damn it" either because it offends religious people.
I do admit, however, that the trauma associated with rape gives more reason than almost any other to not say it.
On August 14 2010 04:04 sikyon wrote: IIRC western countries are democracies with laws regarding free speech.
If you don't like people saying the word rape that's your perogative and I respect that, but frankly everyone has a different opinion on everything (from swear words, racial slurs, and acts of violence). To attempt to impose your own viewpoint on a large community seems arrogant.
Free speech is great for having an argument and making a point, like OP is doing. Think about what you're gonna say for 2 days and make a topic - brilliant. More of this is welcome. But using a term that has such a negative meaning, and defending it with free speech isn't the same thing. It's mean and immature. People are being hurt by the usage of the term, and it sends very negative signals about the community. Though we can't change it everywhere, we can at least make an effort here on TL.
Someone somewhere is hurt by just about everything. At some point you have to draw the line and say that no offense was intended and that they need to get over their own issues. As was pointed out earlier, owning someone could be conceivably misconstrued as a mocking reference to slavery.
It could be but its not. For a second, out of your hypothetical defense and realize that in the real world, rape implies sexual assault. When people make forum posts about being raped in game and then in the next sentence talk about being forcibly bent over a table and having dicks stuck into them, it is not some coincidence. It is because rape means rape, even in gaming.
No, it doesn't. You can't just make that claim. I'd say more people than not don't use the "bent over a table" comment at all. It's an expression, just as "that's so gay" is a comment. I use the term "faggot" all the time IRL, even around gay friends. Although I knew it upset ONE of them, so I tried my best not to use it around him. Quite clearly I have no hatred of gays, considering I'm friends with like 5+ of them.
Also, no one is restricting your vocabulary, we are simply asking that you consider other people's feelings and decide based on that reality. We're not trying to put you in jail or ban you or anything.
Disagree wholeheartedly. The problem here is not people using the word rape nonchalantly. The problem is people irrationally tying meanings to words that are not there. Rape has more meanings than sexual assault and when Day9 is talking about how zealots rapes zerglings I am quite sure every single person in the world realizes he is not talking about the Zealots forcing zerglings to have sex with them.
This is something we used to get away with because the SC community was tiny. Now that real sponsors watch casts and read news updates its going to slowly die because its terrible publicity for what we do.
This is a somewhat unrelaed point in my opinion. Obviously in this setting using the word rape is bad, but so is doing anything else unserious/immature/that looks bad for the sponsor, unrelated of what the meaning is, as long as its inapropriate.
On August 14 2010 04:17 choboPEon wrote: This is nothing like the word niggardly being called racist because thats fucking stupid but associating the word rape with sexual assault is so completely understandable that it boggles the mind that someone would deny it.
how is that at all understandable when you're watching a sc2 cast
you have to purposely LACK understanding to not get that the word is being used differently
While I don't care if others use it - freedom of speech and everything - the word does seem a little sensitive to me. So I personally don't use it. But really, the vernacular is so popular among gamers there's no way it stops being prevalent. So really don't dwell too much on it.
I do want to say that I believe there is a difference between rape and other normal derogatory words like faggot. Mainly because the word rape represent a very despicable form of violence. And there is something about the nature of the crime of rape, that makes me not wish to use the term.
But, to each his own. Obviously, most gamers don't care enough to avoid the word.
On August 14 2010 04:01 KwarK wrote: He's slaughtering those zealots could be offensive to victims of genocide.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
this post kinda ends this thread. exactly my(and i guess the majoritys) thoughts just way better written then i ever could.
On August 14 2010 03:56 SpicyCrab wrote: Gamers love rape.
I'm all for removing words like rape and faggot and have been for a while. There are so many good, colorful curse words to use that don't recall terrible things like that. But people seem quite set on raping faggots.
He's slaughtering those zealots could be offensive to victims of genocide.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
Ridiculous first sentence. Rape is a specific, terrible act that a lot of women suffer silently from. Slaughter is something cows go through before we eat steak. In gaming, rape means to utterly and completely dominate, not unlike the sexual meaning at all.
Only tiny minority or people associate the word rape with sexual assault? Come on, man. Come the fuck on.
This is nothing like the word niggardly being called racist because thats fucking stupid but associating the word rape with sexual assault is so completely understandable that it boggles the mind that someone would deny it.
So, you say that people object to hearing the word rape, despite no rape occuring in the game, because they associate it with something terrible that happened to them.
However this is nothing like a black guy objecting to hearing the word niggardly used as an insult, even though from a phonetic point of view he is likely to think of the word nigger and therefore be reminded of something terrible that happened.
Are you quite sure that they're not alike? Because they seem pretty alike to me. The whole problem seems to be based on hearing words that sound like other words (or in the case of rape is a homonym) and getting upset over the reminder that the other word exists. That is the case in both.
On August 14 2010 04:17 choboPEon wrote: This is nothing like the word niggardly being called racist because thats fucking stupid but associating the word rape with sexual assault is so completely understandable that it boggles the mind that someone would deny it.
how is that at all understandable when you're watching a sc2 cast
you have to purposely LACK understanding to not get that the word is being used differently
Because niggardly means something completely different from nigger
Hawk; perhaps it is worth considering other peoples feelings even when it does not serve to benefit you in any way?
Once again, associating the word rape with rape is not a stretch. In fact it is a very simple connection, one which is VERY DIRECTLY related to the way in which this community uses the word.
I can only say that I am disappointed that so many are unwilling to accept that the word has a real meaning outside of our games. And that our use, whatever its meaning heapens the emotional distress of literally millions of Americans who silently suffer.
On August 14 2010 04:01 KwarK wrote: He's slaughtering those zealots could be offensive to victims of genocide.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
'Victims' of genocide are dead
I get what you mean, tho. The difference, I think, is that whereas there's an incredibly small probability of meeting someone who was affected by genocide, and that they have a still open psychological scar from it, the corresponding numbers for rape are much higher-- higher than anyone wants to admit.
Many rapes go unreported because the victim is afraid to see their assaulter again, or they can't relive the experience in order to describe what happened, or many other reasons. Nearly every woman I've met has been either the victim or attempted victim of a sexual assault or rape. The statistics for the general population aren't much better.
Think about the way in which we mean "rape" when we say it in a game. It's not simply "that guy got owned" or "stomped" or "destroyed. We mean that our target was so thoroughly beaten that they could not have resisted the inevitable conquest we rained upon them.
Boom, headshot? Raped. Melee from behind? Raped. Simultaneous nukes in mineral lines and army? Raped.
What does a rapist do when they rape? They conquer the victim to the point that there is very little, if anything, they can do to prevent their victimization. They remove the victim's ability to choose their fate.
The usages are conceptually the same. The differences are in application: one is to a virtual conquest, the other to a sexual conquest.
A recent rape victim, in many instances, doesn't have the presence of mind to differentiate between applications of that word. The same way that a woman who had been raped might freak out if you grabbed her in the same way as her rapist, even though you obviously don't mean to replicate that event, a victim can also be sensitive to the word or concept of rape. It's a traumatic event that remains sensitive for some time: years or more in some cases, and we ought to be sensitive to that fact.
It's not their shortcoming, it's their assaulter's.
The "why should we censor ourselves for this minority" argument is silly to me when we consider the effort and effect. Gamers give up the word "rape" in their vocabulary, essentially changing nothing. Victims gain the comfort of knowing they won't be reminded of their assault with every epic kill or beatdown in a video game. Even better, both sides lose the problems of having to deal with victims hysteria when confronted by someone celebrating the thing which causes them so much pain. While the gamers vastly outnumber the victims, the victims still gain much more than the gamers lose.
So if we can do something to help, at little to no cost to us, why not do it?
EDIT: I think, too, that there's a definite difference in the "closeness" of the word "rape" to the concept of sexual assault and victimization, and that of "slaughter" to "genocide". When we think of "rape" there is one definite concept that comes to mind in ALL PEOPLE; when we think of "slaughter", the first association is not to the mass murder of people, it is to the mass murder of animals, which most people don't find offensive in the least; and even fewer find it traumatic on the level of rape.
As far as I'm concerned, words only have the meaning we give them. Words are completely neutral in and of themselves; the context we provide these words in gives them their good or bad connotations. I'm by no means advocating sexual assault when I devastate an opponent in competition and exclaim "You got raped!"... but at the same time, I'm not condemning it either as the context I'm using the term in reveals no intent of sexual violation, and is in no way relevant to the situation.
Suppose I decided to invent a new word (for the sake of argument, let's say this word is "namish" or something). At this point, the word "namish" has absolutely NO positive or negative connotation. But suppose I lose terribly against a friend while playing a competitive game, and I exclaim "Namish!" in a frustrated manner. Now, "namish" has been infused with a negative connotation, since the word was wielded with anger. Over time, "namish" might be used by the friend I lost to previously, and the term spreads. Eventually, "namish" is morphed into a curse word of the highest degree, when it came into being as a completely neutral word, as all words do.
Of course, I won't deny that the word "rape" doesn't quite fit the scenario I've laid out for my made-up word, as its initial definition is itself a violent and depraved act. But again, context means everything, as well as the delivery of the word. If you were to sit down with a person who had been a victim of rape, it's only common decency to tread lightly when discussing the matter. That act (and the word used to describe the act) have been cemented in the victim's mind as incomprehensibly horrible things to endure. However, the word takes on an entirely different connotation when my friends and I are having a heated battle in Starcraft, Street Fighter, or what-have-you. In this scenario, the meaning of "rape" has been altered to the point where the subject is no longer what it means to a victim of sexual assault.
Long story short, words only have the power individuals believe them to have. That's why I don't really think that using the word "rape" in a triumphant manner while competing with others in a friendly way is at all offensive in general, because I have not indicated whatsoever that I support the physical act of rape. If you're sensitive about the use of the word, I won't stop you from discouraging its use in the above context, but again, it's the context that counts. Demonizing words gets you nowhere; instead, demonize the acts that the words describe.
Anyway, I know this is a futile argument and I don't have any real hope of getting many people to stop using the word, but I thought I'd chime in anyway ;p
On August 14 2010 04:17 choboPEon wrote: This is nothing like the word niggardly being called racist because thats fucking stupid but associating the word rape with sexual assault is so completely understandable that it boggles the mind that someone would deny it.
how is that at all understandable when you're watching a sc2 cast
you have to purposely LACK understanding to not get that the word is being used differently
he's not saying that people don't get it. He's saying that the word has more than one meaning and origins of the word are pretty firmly rooted in sexual abuse.
On August 14 2010 04:04 sikyon wrote: IIRC western countries are democracies with laws regarding free speech.
If you don't like people saying the word rape that's your perogative and I respect that, but frankly everyone has a different opinion on everything (from swear words, racial slurs, and acts of violence). To attempt to impose your own viewpoint on a large community seems arrogant.
Free speech has nothing to do with my point whatsoever. Free speech refers to governments restricting your right to speak in a certain way. I am certainly not advocating that.
I am not asking the moderation staff to 'crack down'', and I am not asking you to be banned for your words. I am pointing out to people why they shouldn't use a certain word and I am hoping that TL is smart enough to understand why I am right (and yes, I am 100% right.)
I am asking people to be more mindful of the words they are using, that is all.
(Also note that free speech has no bearing on TL whatsoever; it is a private organization and can moderate as it sees fit although I do not expect them to moderate according to my beliefs.)
Edit: Also note, saying that "owned" is analagous to "slavery" is a stretch to say the least, saying "rape" is analagous to... "rape" is probably less of a stretch, no?
Yes actually free speech does. I can go around calling black people racial slurs and proclaiming white supremacy with protection under free speech if I wanted too (which would be weird since I'm asian). Of course such statements would be hurtful but they fall under the umbrella of my own opinions, as long as I am not attempting to incite violence.
Your post is directed towards "all of gaming" so you are not just addressing TL.
By saing you are 100% you are simply proving my point about you being arrogant.
And rape has many definitions. Raping the countryside doesn't mean I am going to go over to the nearest golpher hole and give'er.
The simple fact is that you are not right. Everybody percieves different words in different ways, and our opinions are protected. I feel sorry for your friend that she was raped, but frankly that doesn't preclude me from using the word rape or ever offending her ever again in that contect. Sure if I did it to her I might be a jerk, and if I did it intentionally I would definatly be a jerk, but not only is being a jerk a protected right but restricting my speech based on her experiences is a rediculous, overbroad premise.
I can use whatever word I want. The last thing I want is politically correct feminists telling me what to do. So what, your feelings got hurt. Grow up, your feelings are going to get hurt many more times in life. Live with it.
On August 14 2010 04:17 choboPEon wrote: This is nothing like the word niggardly being called racist because thats fucking stupid but associating the word rape with sexual assault is so completely understandable that it boggles the mind that someone would deny it.
how is that at all understandable when you're watching a sc2 cast
you have to purposely LACK understanding to not get that the word is being used differently
Because niggardly means something completely different from nigger
but rape means rape
and rape has more than one meaning... that's the entire point of what we are talking about
1. You don't mean actual physical rape, actually questioning someone's sexuality when you call them "gay" or "faggot", actually calling someone mentally deficient when you say "retarded". This is true.
However,
2. Consider just, I don't know, being polite? There's an attitude expressed here by some that it is incumbent on the listener, or reader, to get over their own feelings and just accept that the speaker intends something different. I fundamentally disagree. It's easy to avoid using those words and does no harm to the speaker/writer to not use them.
On August 14 2010 04:17 choboPEon wrote: This is nothing like the word niggardly being called racist because thats fucking stupid but associating the word rape with sexual assault is so completely understandable that it boggles the mind that someone would deny it.
how is that at all understandable when you're watching a sc2 cast
you have to purposely LACK understanding to not get that the word is being used differently
Because niggardly means something completely different from nigger
but rape means rape
Unfortunately rape does not simply mean rape. –verb (used with object) 6. to force to have sexual intercourse. 7. to plunder (a place); despoil. 8. to seize, take, or carry off by force.
When you rape someones base then the logical application of the verb would be definition 7, to plunder or despoil. Choosing to misinterpret it with definition 6, despite it being clearly absurd when applied to a collection of buildings, is just bad english. Words in english have multiple meanings in different contexts.
On August 14 2010 04:04 sikyon wrote: IIRC western countries are democracies with laws regarding free speech.
If you don't like people saying the word rape that's your perogative and I respect that, but frankly everyone has a different opinion on everything (from swear words, racial slurs, and acts of violence). To attempt to impose your own viewpoint on a large community seems arrogant.
Free speech is great for having an argument and making a point, like OP is doing. Think about what you're gonna say for 2 days and make a topic - brilliant. More of this is welcome. But using a term that has such a negative meaning, and defending it with free speech isn't the same thing. It's mean and immature. People are being hurt by the usage of the term, and it sends very negative signals about the community. Though we can't change it everywhere, we can at least make an effort here on TL.
Someone somewhere is hurt by just about everything. At some point you have to draw the line and say that no offense was intended and that they need to get over their own issues. As was pointed out earlier, owning someone could be conceivably misconstrued as a mocking reference to slavery.
I think at a certain level a person knows when something he says is going to offend someone else. I understand if the intent isn't to hurt, but to a traumatized person it still makes a difference if it's used or not. And since we can make a choice with our vocabulary, we should try and steer clear of being unnecessarily hurtful towards others.
On August 14 2010 04:25 hacpee wrote: I can use whatever word I want. The last thing I want is politically correct feminists telling me what to do. So what, your feelings got hurt. Grow up, your feelings are going to get hurt many more times in life. Live with it.
I think the OP has an understanding, somewhat pleading tone. To respond with this aggressive bullshit is stupid.
On August 14 2010 04:01 KwarK wrote: He's slaughtering those zealots could be offensive to victims of genocide.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
I completely agree with this post... People use other words that are offensive too... I personally see murder being worse than rape.. so why don't people get mad at the use of the word slaughter, or murdered ?
Bro, what about owned? You never addressed what we should use because people, formerly victims of slavery, might feel. What about people who have been in a war zone, and actually have killed people or been shot at? Why should we continue to simulate MURDER?
This thread is dumb. Your girl friend has been traumatized and clearly has emotional issues. Of COURSE the word RAPE is going to make her freak out a bit. THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE ARE BAD.
You suggested we should be more intellectual or whatever about our word choice, why don't you learn about the other meanings for the word rape?
On August 14 2010 04:17 choboPEon wrote: This is nothing like the word niggardly being called racist because thats fucking stupid but associating the word rape with sexual assault is so completely understandable that it boggles the mind that someone would deny it.
how is that at all understandable when you're watching a sc2 cast
you have to purposely LACK understanding to not get that the word is being used differently
Because niggardly means something completely different from nigger
but rape means rape
and rape has more than one meaning... that's the entire point of what we are talking about
all of you who are saying that the gaming meaning of rape has no connection the sexual assault rape are intentionally deluding yourself so that you don't have to go through the massive inconvenience of altering your behavior slightly
(a) On a larger scale -- it is almost impossible to shift the entire gaming culture out of offensiveness. If it's a PR issue -- (what is the image of TL to the general public), then it should only apply to the people who claim to officially represent TL.
(b) On a prescriptive level -- it is offensive to some that we are trying to restrict their vocabulary because public Bnet games are so anonymous we never know who we can offend.
(c) On a personal and interpersonal level that's where this matters. I think the strength of the OP's admonishment is to remember our friends around us. If my brother is gay and doesn't care if I say "faggot", then fine. But, if I know that he has a real problem with the word (not in a sensitive asshole way, but in a real, personal way), then this post is a reminder that, if I care for his perspective, then I should care for my words.
On August 14 2010 04:25 hacpee wrote: I can use whatever word I want. The last thing I want is politically correct feminists telling me what to do. So what, your feelings got hurt. Grow up, your feelings are going to get hurt many more times in life. Live with it.
I think the OP has an understanding, somewhat pleading tone. To respond with this aggressive bullshit is stupid.
Actually the OP's pleading tone turned into one of arrogance, I think it's right that people reply in kind. Anyway, gonna log on to bnet and rape some noobs
i don't really care much about shocking, scaring, or offending grown ups with my words. when you grow the fuck up, and are an adult, you should be able to confront things like words without curling up into a fetal position. if words bother you so much then you have a problem that needed to be pointed out to you anyways, and it's something you need to address. callous, maybe. but true.
this is generally my approach. like, in places like forums and when i can just be honest with people. of course there are times for politeness and respect(though generally i can take an approach somewhere inbetween). but when im playing a game, for example, i'd rather just be honest and straightforward - not pandering to other people's flaws.
On August 14 2010 04:25 hacpee wrote: I can use whatever word I want. The last thing I want is politically correct feminists telling me what to do. So what, your feelings got hurt. Grow up, your feelings are going to get hurt many more times in life. Live with it.
I think the OP has an understanding, somewhat pleading tone. To respond with this aggressive bullshit is stupid.
I am pointing out to people why they shouldn't use a certain word and I am hoping that TL is smart enough to understand why I am right (and yes, I am 100% right.)
People need to understand that CONTEXT is what matters, not the word itself.
The word "nigger" isn't offensive. It's the context that makes a word offensive or not offensive. Calling my black friend "mah niggah" isn't offensive to anyone, but people who don't know me may frown a little because I use the word "nigga" and that I am white. But if I were to shout "you fucking nigger piece of shit," people would go absolutely bat-shit crazy because in that context the word "nigger" is offensive.
The word "cock" has two different meanings, and you are not allowed to say the word "cock" on TV or on Radio if you are referring to the male sexual organ. However, when referring to a Rooster, the word "cock" is fine.
Saying that I raped some noob in a videogame isn't offensive, because it's the context that matters.
On August 14 2010 04:25 hacpee wrote: I can use whatever word I want. The last thing I want is politically correct feminists telling me what to do. So what, your feelings got hurt. Grow up, your feelings are going to get hurt many more times in life. Live with it.
I think the OP has an understanding, somewhat pleading tone. To respond with this aggressive bullshit is stupid.
Actually the OP's pleading tone turned into one of arrogance, I think it's right that people reply in kind. Anyway, gonna log on to bnet and rape some noobs
How can a simple change in language that will make the whole community look more professional be met with such resistance?
I really wish that more people would act like they would irl online, seriously grow up.
On August 14 2010 04:23 SpicyCrab wrote: Hawk; perhaps it is worth considering other peoples feelings even when it does not serve to benefit you in any way?
There's a limit to how much I care to walk on eggshells for people, especially ones that I do not know.
Cursing offends people. Cheesing offends newbies. People get offended over stupid shit. Where do you draw the line?? It's not like spamming NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER in a chat to intentionally upset someone.
Gretorp has come up with a great solution. Just say "boppin' clowns" instead of "rapin' bitches." It gets the point across without all the bad feelings
Same thing with the word "retard"-- people with retardation in the family will most likely be offended. It's all about the context you use the word in. People need to be less sensitive when getting trolled over the internet.
i don't really care much about shocking, scaring, or offending grown ups with my words. when you grow the fuck up, and are an adult, you should be able to confront things like words without curling up into a fetal position. if words bother you so much then you have a problem that needed to be pointed out to you anyways, and it's something you need to address. callous, maybe. but true.
I think the problem is that since we were kids, we've been conditioned into believing some words were bad, and some were not. I don't know about you, but when I was about 4, I was absolutely terrified of using the words "heck" or "darn" for fear of retribution, despite those words being laughably tame in comparison to "fuck" or "shit". When you've been predisposed as a child to avoid using those words (this also applies to being taught a religion as a child, or a philosophy, or really any idea), it becomes harder to shake that foundation of thought, because you've grown up with it.
Sure, adults ideally shouldn't be offended by words, but if they TRULY believe that they're bad words because that's what they were taught as children, who's to say whether or not their negative responses are justified?
On August 14 2010 04:25 hacpee wrote: I can use whatever word I want. The last thing I want is politically correct feminists telling me what to do. So what, your feelings got hurt. Grow up, your feelings are going to get hurt many more times in life. Live with it.
I think the OP has an understanding, somewhat pleading tone. To respond with this aggressive bullshit is stupid.
Actually the OP's pleading tone turned into one of arrogance, I think it's right that people reply in kind. Anyway, gonna log on to bnet and rape some noobs
How can a simple change in language that will make the whole community look more professional be met with such resistance?
I really wish that more people would act like they would irl online, seriously grow up.
If you told abunch of mennonites to be abit less conservative to look more acceptable to the rest of the world, what would they think?
Gaming culture is culture. You don't change culture by ordering it to change. That's just going to get you a swift kick to the balls (or a swift cheek turned, I guess).
On August 14 2010 04:25 hacpee wrote: I can use whatever word I want. The last thing I want is politically correct feminists telling me what to do. So what, your feelings got hurt. Grow up, your feelings are going to get hurt many more times in life. Live with it.
I think the OP has an understanding, somewhat pleading tone. To respond with this aggressive bullshit is stupid.
Actually the OP's pleading tone turned into one of arrogance, I think it's right that people reply in kind. Anyway, gonna log on to bnet and rape some noobs
How can a simple change in language that will make the whole community look more professional be met with such resistance?
I don't think many people are actually resisting the idea that when publicly representing gaming we don't use such terms. I think what is being argued is the philosophy of it.
Although I understand what the OP is trying to convey, I can't see this sort of stuff changing. It's embedded in our minds to think that such words are OK to use in our social endeavours.
I remember my elementary teacher getting really upset when one of our students used the word "retarded" in class, and it never really struck me as to what it truly means and how devastating it is for someone endure when taking care of mentally challenged people, which my teacher happened to experience unfortunately. But people still use it. And it's not going to change imo, because our vernacular in the social life are so familiarized and implanted in our minds that we really aren't aware of what our words mean when we talk.
On August 14 2010 04:17 choboPEon wrote: This is nothing like the word niggardly being called racist because thats fucking stupid but associating the word rape with sexual assault is so completely understandable that it boggles the mind that someone would deny it.
how is that at all understandable when you're watching a sc2 cast
you have to purposely LACK understanding to not get that the word is being used differently
Because niggardly means something completely different from nigger
but rape means rape
Unfortunately rape does not simply mean rape. –verb (used with object) 6. to force to have sexual intercourse. 7. to plunder (a place); despoil. 8. to seize, take, or carry off by force.
When you rape someones base then the logical application of the verb would be definition 7, to plunder or despoil. Choosing to misinterpret it with definition 6, despite it being clearly absurd when applied to a collection of buildings, is just bad english. Words in english have multiple meanings in different contexts.
alright this is getting contentious and, again, i know im not going to win any converts so i wont linger in this thread for too much longer.
i will respond to this, though: "Words in english have multiple meanings in different contexts." And often the meanings are connected, they do not exist in a vacuum and, again, for you to claim that when people say rape in a gaming sense that there is no connection to definition #6 seems ridiculous to me! but whatever, it's not like i shed a tear every time i read it, i'm as numb to it as most males 18-35 are.
Everyone knows that the word "rape" has different meanings, and that different contexts bring out different aspects of its meanings.
Duh.
The point is that, no matter what the intended meaning, no matter what the context, those four letters put together in that order will always hurt someone, if they land on the eyes of a victim. Always.
And it's not that hard to not use the word, so why take the chance? Just be a nice person.
On August 14 2010 04:25 hacpee wrote: I can use whatever word I want. The last thing I want is politically correct feminists telling me what to do. So what, your feelings got hurt. Grow up, your feelings are going to get hurt many more times in life. Live with it.
I think the OP has an understanding, somewhat pleading tone. To respond with this aggressive bullshit is stupid.
I am pointing out to people why they shouldn't use a certain word and I am hoping that TL is smart enough to understand why I am right (and yes, I am 100% right.)
OP seems abit full of himself, tbh.
This too.
I don't use the word but when some moralising *insert slur for irony here* tells me I can't use it because it'll offend people who don't understand and if I don't agree with him I'm an idiot then it pisses me off.
My two younger brothers are both severely autistic, and I will never have a conversation with them ever. I got over the term "retard" being offensive pretty quickly. At least rape, as listed by KwarK, has other meanings and connotations other than the traditional definition.
It is different when you bring internet culture and phrases into real life though. Anyone with half a brain should know that saying "get raped" to someones face regardless of the situation is a touchy subject.
And on that note, men get raped too. My official position on this is that saying "you got raped!" when you beat someone in a game is just being colorful, like a joke, and either everything is OK to joke about, or nothing is.
I think you're trying to do something great here OP. It'll never happen, but thoughtfulness should always be encouraged.
And you can say using the term 'slaughter' would upset genocide victims, and 'gay' would offend the obvious, and so on. And when you take all the negative things you say into too much consideration you become a very bland, boring person. That you're right, I call things gay all the time.
Similarly, there will be very acute situations where the word 'slaughter' could offend someone. But realistically you're not going to be around anyone like that when you're playing video games. Moreover, I agree with what you say about words taking on new meanings, and even more with how over that being sensitive enough to quit saying a word all around is going too far. It is.
The difference is, I can call a fag a fag. Homosexuals and blacks call each other derogatory terms all the time as a sign of affection. Flat out. Seldom, if ever, do you reach that point with a rape victim.
I think the OP is addressing a word that causes more quiet pain than most I can think of. It's not like the girls you possibly hang out with have had a lot of time to adjust to being raped.
And you're right, at Day9s level it is a little uncalled for, and he should cringe slightly. Day9s the best, so don't get me wrong on this front.
I'm just saying, of all the words we use, this one might be the most offensive, but if I offended some dude trying to get me to stop, I honestly wouldn't care. But if I painfully depressed someone I never met just because I had to fulfill my excitement with some fad term that'll go out of style soon enough anyway? I'd rather not.
Very thought provoking, thanks for posting :D I will try to stop.
I'm some what divided on this issue, as I can see both sides of the issue. I do believe that casters are going to have to avoid saying "rape" just like they are going to have to avoid cursing to keep their sponsors happy and the people paying the money have the final say. For the community in general I will stick with my hatred of PC and say that if you are offended by it you are gonna need to get some thicker skin (except for poor ned, who has skin that's three inches thick.)
Its not even as if we redefined rape to mean something else, the gamer community is actually using its oldest definition, it didn't have anything to do with women till ~80 years after it first meant "an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation" I think its exactly like the word niggardly, which meant cheep/miserly 200 years before it had anything to do with being black, and that banning its use would have more of a detrimental effect then anything.
On August 14 2010 04:17 choboPEon wrote: This is nothing like the word niggardly being called racist because thats fucking stupid but associating the word rape with sexual assault is so completely understandable that it boggles the mind that someone would deny it.
how is that at all understandable when you're watching a sc2 cast
you have to purposely LACK understanding to not get that the word is being used differently
Because niggardly means something completely different from nigger
but rape means rape
and rape has more than one meaning... that's the entire point of what we are talking about
all of you who are saying that the gaming meaning of rape has no connection the sexual assault rape are intentionally deluding yourself so that you don't have to go through the massive inconvenience of altering your behavior slightly
Seems more like to me you're so sure of yourself and how every other gamer interprets something. You've done nothing but argue with people, all the while giving incorrect definitions and literally defining how people connotatively use a word.
As someone said, saying +1 zealots rape zerglings has utterly zero sexual assault connection.
Funny how you just changed your argument however from arguing "there's no other definition" (aka arguing for dictionary denotation) to "there's a connection with how you use the word, you're wrong and you're convincing yourself you're right, even though I've just been shown that there are many other more valid definitions. I have all knowledge of the matter."
I can understand the pleading tone of the OP (while I may or may not agree), but I just can't get over your "none of you know what you're talking about" tone.
I really am not full of myself. I am just passionate on this issue and I am confident that I am right.
Some of you seem very confident that you are "correct" that rape "should be used" or perhaps that it's "not a big deal to use it"
You are wrong. Sorry.
The very unlikely hypothetical that talking about "murder" is going to offend a murder victim is not even remotely analagous to the very likely and entirely non-hypothetical notion that trivializing the word "rape" by throwing it around constantly could offend or hurt a rape victim.
i don't really care much about shocking, scaring, or offending grown ups with my words. when you grow the fuck up, and are an adult, you should be able to confront things like words without curling up into a fetal position. if words bother you so much then you have a problem that needed to be pointed out to you anyways, and it's something you need to address. callous, maybe. but true.
I think the problem is that since we were kids, we've been conditioned into believing some words were bad, and some were not. I don't know about you, but when I was about 4, I was absolutely terrified of using the words "heck" or "darn" for fear of retribution, despite those words being laughably tame in comparison to "fuck" or "shit". When you've been predisposed as a child to avoid using those words (this also applies to being taught a religion as a child, or a philosophy, or really any idea), it becomes harder to shake that foundation of thought, because you've grown up with it.
Sure, adults ideally shouldn't be offended by words, but if they TRULY believe that they're bad words because that's what they were taught as children, who's to say whether or not their negative responses are justified?
"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me." I'll take a gander and assume that most kids have heard that expression before. :|
As an appeal to check your own vocabulary and remove the potentially offensive terms, I really like the OP. As a debate about semantics: been there, done that, nothing new.
Well I agree with you that people that have never seen sc before and then watch a comentary and hear rape all the time they might reconsider watching it so serious commentators maybe shouldn´t use it. But its already so wide spread that stoping to use it altogether might be difficult.
On August 14 2010 04:34 Eyeon wrote: My two younger brothers are both severely autistic, and I will never have a conversation with them ever. I got over the term "retard" being offensive pretty quickly. At least rape, as listed by KwarK, has other meanings and connotations other than the traditional definition.
In response to a ridiculous lack of ability to communicate between myself and some other players in a ums game the other day, I asked them "what, are you guys autistic?".
Out of curiosity, would that offend you? It sure offended one of them. I got a prompt "man that isn't cool". But I thought it was an entirely appropriate way of explaining what I thought, autistic people have trouble communicating right?
If I got raped I think the language of an internet community would be the least of my problems. But I don't know, it sucks. Your friend will be reminded of rape regardless and she will have to deal with that, probably for the rest of her life ;/
Eh, the use of "rape" and "gay" really doesn't bother me that much because it's just so ingrained in the gaming community. I know what people mean, and especially on a forum that spends half its time commenting on male progamers' looks, I know that people aren't trying to communicate homophobia, and they certainly aren't trying to torture rape victims.
That said, I do find it a bit distasteful, so I don't do it myself (except when I'm being facetious), but it just doesn't bother me enough to get mad about it.
On August 14 2010 04:17 choboPEon wrote: This is nothing like the word niggardly being called racist because thats fucking stupid but associating the word rape with sexual assault is so completely understandable that it boggles the mind that someone would deny it.
how is that at all understandable when you're watching a sc2 cast
you have to purposely LACK understanding to not get that the word is being used differently
Because niggardly means something completely different from nigger
but rape means rape
and rape has more than one meaning... that's the entire point of what we are talking about
all of you who are saying that the gaming meaning of rape has no connection the sexual assault rape are intentionally deluding yourself so that you don't have to go through the massive inconvenience of altering your behavior slightly
The word rape has multiple definitions, so you could say that it has a connection (which is does, in the fact that its the same word, but thats it). However, since we are using a completely different context that people should be aware of (if you take 2 seconds to look at said context instead of flipping out/getting hurt first), i dont see how it could terribly offend people. I'm not using the word incorrectly, someone else is interpreting the word I used incorrectly, hurting them-self. If i used the word wrecked in a sentenced and someone was just in a terrible car accident, would he have the right to be offended based on what i said? What about the use of the word slaughter in the presence of a jew who had parents or grand parents who died in WW2? You cannot say that we are continuing to offend people with this word is we know what context to use it in and the person being offended cannot see that we use it that way.
Well, I am not a native english speaker, and I don't think I have ever looked the exact meaning of this word up. I actually don't know how often I've used it, but I just adapted to the language used around me by other gamers.
At least your post made me think about this issue, and if rape implies specifically nothing else but a sexual act, I can see myself trying to stop using it. I just can hardly believe that the word has only this specific meaning (but I actually don't think I use it much at all).
I don't agree with the op's plea to PC, but how in the hell are you some of you morons suggesting that the word itself doesn't have sexual abuse connotations. That's like not even debatable. Stop being obtuse.
One thread won't change anything. I'm sorry to say but it's already ingrained in gaming culture whether you like it or not. I know quite a few girls personally who got raped in the bad sense and they game.
Unfortunately rape does not simply mean rape. –verb (used with object) 6. to force to have sexual intercourse. 7. to plunder (a place); despoil. 8. to seize, take, or carry off by force.
When you rape someones base then the logical application of the verb would be definition 7, to plunder or despoil. Choosing to misinterpret it with definition 6, despite it being clearly absurd when applied to a collection of buildings, is just bad english. Words in english have multiple meanings in different contexts.
I guarantee that if you surveyed people and say: "Why did you just use the word rape?" in a video game context without biasing them and saying "Oh and here is a list of alternate definitions of the word" The overwhelming majority will be unable to say "Oh I meant that I was pillaging them by force". Instead they will backpedal and say, "Well I didn't literally mean that I had sex with them by force" but they will find it hard to provide an alternate explanation.
Rape may have different dictionary definitions, but culturally, in the game world, rape and the common definition prevail. Just think about teabagging -- how would you try to explain that differently than the sexual implications of the action?
*pre-post note: this post will not be well accepted by all - please understand that this is just an opinion *
Words like "rape" and "gay," while they can be "emotionally charged" are just words like any other and their meanings change and vary in accordince with their usage. If, while playing starcraft, i "rape" somone with my reapers. It obviously means i beat them badly with my reapers, although the direct definition of "forcibly have sex with, against their will" certainly fits for what happened. Just because i say the word "rape," dosen't make rape an OK or cool thing. If I say "man that cheese is gay". I dont mean that the cheese wants to have sex with other cheeses, I mean it was lame. Now when i say that, just because gay and lame can be synonomous, dosent mean that i think homosexuals are lame.
My point is that words are just that, words, and that individuals sensitivty to them should not exclude them from my vocabulary. I have gay friends, and when they are around, I'll call lame things gay, by accident. Then i look around nervously to see if they are crying/whining/looking upset. When they are, I explain to them just what i said above, and generally they are OK. If a girl is upset by somone using the word rape to describe a beating they gave somoene, and they start to cry because they are a rape victim, well that person needs some (more) therapy.
Personally i love the word, "rape," especially when I'm using it to describe starcraft. Sorry OP =/.
And it's not just immature idiots and kids that seem so preoccupied with the word. I've heard MLG commentators almost say it.
I can tell that he doesn't mean to use it, but I have even caught Day9 using the word during casts. Always with a slight hesitation and barely noticeable "oops expression" afterwards. I don't mean to call him out here, but I think it illustrates my point.
When you call people on it the response is always the same, "well we're not talking about 'real' rape, it's just an expression."
I want every one to understand what that word means to people. To those who have had personal experience with rape (I am not such a person btw) it brings to mind horrid memories, horrific thoughts of powerlessness; intense agony and pain.
What's worse, when the word is used in passing by ignorant gamers it cheapens its meaning, it is as if you're saying, "oh this isn't a big deal at all."
I knew a girl (a rape victim) who used to become enraged when my gamer friends would talk about "raping each other."
And they would say "sorry, I didn't mean to; I meant to say I owned him"
And she would say "It makes me really sad that that means the same thing."
And we wonder why women don't want to join our communities and play us?
Now I know a lot of people will think they are being clever when they reply to this thread and say "yeah I hate rape let's rape rape." Or make some other idiotic comment which only reinforces my point. Please don't be one of those idiots.
Understand how it makes our community look from the outside, and how it makes gamers as a whole look to the rest of the world. We do not have to stoop so low just to have fun.
So this is just an open letter to TL and really all of gaming. Stop using this word, there are many substitutes which are much less abhorrent. Please understand that rape is a real problem, a real issue, and that it is an emotionally charged word that can cause real emotional damage to those who hear.
There is no justification and no excuse for the use of this word in the flippant way that it is thrown around. Just stop.
I'm all for removing words like rape and faggot and have been for a while. There are so many good, colorful curse words to use that don't recall terrible things like that. But people seem quite set on raping faggots.
Rape is a specific, terrible act that a lot of women suffer silently from. Slaughter is something cows go through before we eat steak. In gaming, rape means to utterly and completely dominate, not unlike the sexual meaning at all.
Only tiny minority or people associate the word rape with sexual assault? Come on, man. Come the fuck on.
This is nothing like the word niggardly being called racist because thats fucking stupid but associating the word rape with sexual assault is so completely understandable that it boggles the mind that someone would deny it.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. So you want me to not use the word "rape", because it can bring awful memories to surface for people who have gone through something that awful? Nah, not a good enough reason. I truly believe that if someone is so offended by a word that they become adamant about stopping its usage, and create a thread on TL.net for that purpose, then that person (you in this case) should not procreate so as to ensure that future generations are not saddled with people that are so easily upsetted, that a word offends them. In fact I believe it is your duty to your species to not engage in sexual relations of any kind with a member of your opposite sex. PS Im going to use the word "rape" twice as much as I previously did.
On August 14 2010 04:17 choboPEon wrote: This is nothing like the word niggardly being called racist because thats fucking stupid but associating the word rape with sexual assault is so completely understandable that it boggles the mind that someone would deny it.
how is that at all understandable when you're watching a sc2 cast
you have to purposely LACK understanding to not get that the word is being used differently
Because niggardly means something completely different from nigger
but rape means rape
and rape has more than one meaning... that's the entire point of what we are talking about
all of you who are saying that the gaming meaning of rape has no connection the sexual assault rape are intentionally deluding yourself so that you don't have to go through the massive inconvenience of altering your behavior slightly
Seems more like to me you're so sure of yourself and how every other gamer interprets something. You've done nothing but argue with people, all the while giving incorrect definitions and literally defining how people connotatively use a word.
As someone said, saying +1 zealots rape zerglings has utterly zero sexual assault connection.
Funny how you just changed your argument however from arguing "there's no other definition" (aka arguing for dictionary denotation) to "there's a connection with how you use the word, you're wrong and you're convincing yourself you're right, even though I've just been shown that there are many other more valid definitions. I have all knowledge of the matter."
I can understand the pleading tone of the OP (while I may or may not agree), but I just can't get over your "none of you know what you're talking about" tone.
so easily offended by words! get over it, i guess.
i didn't just change my argument. i didn't say there was only one definition in the dictionary for rape, i said that the gaming community's use of the word is connected to the sexual assault definition.
it doesn't help your cause that, when the other definitions take place (To seize and carry off by force, To plunder or pillage.) sexual rape accompanies it more often than not. the meanings are connected intimately.
i get 'i don't care', i do. i don't get 'this rape is totally different'.
Sorry to say this, but this is becoming really ridiculous. I don't use "rape" word, but still i am going to say whatever i want, you know words don't kill people and what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Life is hard and if you would get offended by something someone says on the internet, prepare for the hell ride, when you bump into real problems. Maybe we could just live like in the demolition man movie - if you swear, you pay or get negative credit...just my opinion
On August 14 2010 04:31 SolHeiM wrote: People need to understand that CONTEXT is what matters, not the word itself.
The word "nigger" isn't offensive. It's the context that makes a word offensive or not offensive. Calling my black friend "mah niggah" isn't offensive to anyone, but people who don't know me may frown a little because I use the word "nigga" and that I am white. But if I were to shout "you fucking nigger piece of shit," people would go absolutely bat-shit crazy because in that context the word "nigger" is offensive.
The word "cock" has two different meanings, and you are not allowed to say the word "cock" on TV or on Radio if you are referring to the male sexual organ. However, when referring to a Rooster, the word "cock" is fine.
Saying that I raped some noob in a videogame isn't offensive, because it's the context that matters.
I totally agree.
Plus I'll stop using it when I'll see the english-speaker (i.e. United-Statesians) stop killing their own language and talking loudly & wrongly when visiting places.
Unfortunately rape does not simply mean rape. –verb (used with object) 6. to force to have sexual intercourse. 7. to plunder (a place); despoil. 8. to seize, take, or carry off by force.
When you rape someones base then the logical application of the verb would be definition 7, to plunder or despoil. Choosing to misinterpret it with definition 6, despite it being clearly absurd when applied to a collection of buildings, is just bad english. Words in english have multiple meanings in different contexts.
I guarantee that if you surveyed people and say: "Why did you just use the word rape?" in a video game context without biasing them and saying "Oh and here is a list of alternate definitions of the word" The overwhelming majority will be unable to say "Oh I meant that I was pillaging them by force". Instead they will backpedal and say, "Well I didn't literally mean that I had sex with them by force" but they will find it hard to provide an alternate explanation.
Rape may have different dictionary definitions, but culturally, in the game world, rape and the common definition prevail. Just think about teabagging -- how would you try to explain that differently than the sexual implications of the action?
And what do you think the sexual version of teabagging is derived from genius??
I raped that broad I raped the land of its resources I raped that fucking newbie and bent him over hard
Guess what it all comes back to?
On August 14 2010 04:41 mint_julep wrote: 'Gay' and 'Faggot' as derogatory are stupid homophobic bullshit. It would be no different from calling someone a n*gg*r for cheesing etc.
Rape on the other hand has been used to mean utter destruction in a non sexual way outside of gaming for a long time.
On August 14 2010 04:41 mint_julep wrote: 'Gay' and 'Faggot' as derogatory are stupid homophobic bullshit. It would be no different from calling someone a n*gg*r for cheesing etc.
Rape on the other hand has been used to mean utter destruction in a non sexual way outside of gaming for a long time.
Ever heard of "The Rape of Nanking"?
Rape of Nanking is probably not a great example of using rape in a non sexual way (unless your history books were printed in Japan).
Okay, I think we should stop using the word rape, since it offends a lot of people, and I present you with a new word - raep, it is similar, so you dont have to adjust a lot to it, and it sounds the same way.
And please dont use the word stomped, because when I was "Lion King" when I was a child, Mufasa got stomped preeetty bad and it brings back bad memories ;(((
In all seriousness, though, people get offended by everything, and to be offended by one of the meanings (it was definition 6, like someone pointed out) of a word, is simply stupid. In fact, it is incredibly stupid and childish to get offended by any word. I dont care if you are a rape victim or not, some kids get beaten up by their parents, that is just as fucked up, do you see them flip out when someone mentions "beat"? And dont come to me saying it is not the same thing, it is even worse, unless the rape victim is a child...
When someone suggested that pro gamers interviewed on TV should make an effort to shave, shower and put on clean clothes before hand in order to make esports look more proffesional to outsiders the majority thought it was an excellent idea. When someone suggests that we maybe should stop using a word that to everyone outside of our little sub culture means sexual abuse to describe winning over someone in a video game people calls him an arrogant idiot -.-;; I would say that if people want esports to be taken seriously by sponsors and a wider audience then they have to start acting (and talking) like grown ups. Cutting words like "rape" and "faggot" from official casts is an excellent start in my oppinion.
It's an interesting utilitarian. Millions of gamers will be slightly hurt by forcing themselves not to say "rape." A few gamers will be very hurt when they hear the word rape. In the total aggregate, the greatest pleasure comes from people freely using the word as we do now. However, if we want to maximize average pleasure we should censor ourselves.
Oh and also I can't believe no one has posted this legendary thread yet. So mean but hilarious at the same time.
Many of my "heroes", so to speak, are people who have been fighting or have fought for free speech.
George Carlin and many other comedians have been censored over and over for "joking" about things which offended others. The problem is, you'll always offend someone unless you stick in the oftentimes boring "politically correct" type of humor. Why is it bad to crack a joke about whatever classification of people.
I'm not saying that "I raped your tank" is a form of humor, but I don't understand why the use of rape is offensive whereas "I killed your tank" is fine. What if I play some game and I cast as spell on you which makes you run slower for 10 seconds and then you're "crippled". Doesn't that make light on the situations of cripples? I mean sure it sounds absurd but I don't know that we should cut words from our vocabulary because it makes some close minded people sad.
My gf's sister had it happen to her, my gf almost had it happen to her, yet she "rapes" people on xbox all the time.
On August 14 2010 04:36 SpicyCrab wrote: I really am not full of myself. I am just passionate on this issue and I am confident that I am right.
Some of you seem very confident that you are "correct" that rape "should be used" or perhaps that it's "not a big deal to use it"
You are wrong. Sorry.
The very unlikely hypothetical that talking about "murder" is going to offend a murder victim is not even remotely analagous to the very likely and entirely non-hypothetical notion that trivializing the word "rape" by throwing it around constantly could offend or hurt a rape victim.
Bro, what about owned? You never addressed what we should use because people, formerly victims of slavery, might feel. What about people who have been in a war zone, and actually have killed people or been shot at? Why should we continue to simulate MURDER?
This thread is dumb. Your girl friend has been traumatized and clearly has emotional issues. Of COURSE the word RAPE is going to make her freak out a bit. THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE ARE BAD.
You suggested we should be more intellectual or whatever about our word choice, why don't you learn about the other meanings for the word rape?
I assume this is the text you are responding two with the last sentence. How can you expect us to looking at our language, when you won't look at yours? On top of it, you expect us to listen to you, when you aren't listening to us. Asking us to censor the word RAPE instead of OWN in a game where players MURDER each other is hypocritical. So is everything else you've posted in this thread.
The amount of resistance to changing a single word in one's vocabulary to one which doesn't make people weep hysterically because of trauma, BECAUSE it makes people weep hysterically because of TRAUMA, is amazing.
It's not "something bad that happened to them". Being punched in the face in a barfight is something bad; dropping a hammer on your toe is something bad.
Having someone forcefully shove their cock inside of you AGAINST YOUR WILL is beyond "something bad".
On August 14 2010 04:01 KwarK wrote: He's slaughtering those zealots could be offensive to victims of genocide.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
On August 14 2010 04:45 Slow Motion wrote: It's an interesting utilitarian. Millions of gamers will be slightly hurt by forcing themselves not to say "rape." A few gamers will be very hurt when they hear the word rape. In the total aggregate, the greatest pleasure comes from people freely using the word as we do now. However, if we want to maximize average pleasure we should censor ourselves.
Oh and also I can't believe no one has posted this legendary thread yet. So mean but hilarious at the same time.
No. The greatest pleasure comes from changing it. See my post on Page 3.
Although I personally never use the word rape in game for the reasons stated by the OP, it doesn't really bother me when others do. To the OP, I don't think girls avoid the gaming community because of our language - it's a very minor factor compared to how interesting and worthwhile gaming is to them.
When I say I raped someone it completly means that I had my way with them (not sexually, but that's implied). Of course what it actually means is that my victory was a total domination and it was of course in no way sexual (but I refer to sexual imagary).
The point of "pillaging and burning" is to show that every word has different contexts and even if some contexts are not written in dictionaries they do exist. Language is a constantly changing and evloving creature and if you can't understand a word in a new context or usage that's your own fault. It might be a reasonable fault (ie you were actually raped) but it is still a problem you have to deal with, not us. You might ask us to stop using it while infront of you, which is fine. But if you ask us to stop using it point blank and forever, that extends beyond the bounds of courtesy and into the realm of self-delusion.
For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all.
I can only express intense disappointment at the complete lack of maturity and understanding from this community and what makes me even more sad is that I know that TL is one of the most mature gaming communities that exists; I can only imagine what the response would be on a normal gaming forum.
On August 14 2010 04:17 choboPEon wrote: This is nothing like the word niggardly being called racist because thats fucking stupid but associating the word rape with sexual assault is so completely understandable that it boggles the mind that someone would deny it.
how is that at all understandable when you're watching a sc2 cast
you have to purposely LACK understanding to not get that the word is being used differently
Because niggardly means something completely different from nigger
but rape means rape
and rape has more than one meaning... that's the entire point of what we are talking about
all of you who are saying that the gaming meaning of rape has no connection the sexual assault rape are intentionally deluding yourself so that you don't have to go through the massive inconvenience of altering your behavior slightly
Seems more like to me you're so sure of yourself and how every other gamer interprets something. You've done nothing but argue with people, all the while giving incorrect definitions and literally defining how people connotatively use a word.
As someone said, saying +1 zealots rape zerglings has utterly zero sexual assault connection.
Funny how you just changed your argument however from arguing "there's no other definition" (aka arguing for dictionary denotation) to "there's a connection with how you use the word, you're wrong and you're convincing yourself you're right, even though I've just been shown that there are many other more valid definitions. I have all knowledge of the matter."
I can understand the pleading tone of the OP (while I may or may not agree), but I just can't get over your "none of you know what you're talking about" tone.
so easily offended by words! get over it, i guess.
i didn't just change my argument. i didn't say there was only one definition in the dictionary for rape, i said that the gaming community's use of the word is connected to the sexual assault definition.
it doesn't help your cause that, when the other definitions take place (To seize and carry off by force, To plunder or pillage.) sexual rape accompanies it more often than not. the meanings are connected intimately.
i get 'i don't care', i do. i don't get 'this rape is totally different'.
It's not that I'm offended, I just feel like you're going way over your head making claims on how other people are interpreting things. You're originally saying, "It is because rape means rape, even in gaming." But the things is, many people don't use it to mean "rape" as you're implying in gaming. It's very clear, as said in the Zealot vs Zergling scenario, that isn't what is being implied. Rape may be used to reference sexual assault, but it isn't always, and I would argue most of the time isn't. You're claims of people deluding themselves just comes off to me as a "I'm done arguing with you all, my points are clearly superior, you're just ignoring my points."
On August 14 2010 04:46 neohero9 wrote: The amount of resistance to changing a single word in one's vocabulary to one which doesn't make people weep hysterically because of trauma, BECAUSE it makes people weep hysterically because of TRAUMA, is amazing.
It's not "something bad that happened to them". Being punched in the face in a barfight is something bad; dropping a hammer on your toe is something bad.
Having someone forcefully shove their cock inside of you AGAINST YOUR WILL is beyond "something bad".
If badness is the measuring stick used, not context, then beat is just as bad. Beaten wives, physical child abuse, the world is full of people scarred (both physically and emotionally) from being beaten. Of course in a gaming context it means something completely different to beat someone but we're disregarding context here.
i don't really care much about shocking, scaring, or offending grown ups with my words. when you grow the fuck up, and are an adult, you should be able to confront things like words without curling up into a fetal position. if words bother you so much then you have a problem that needed to be pointed out to you anyways, and it's something you need to address. callous, maybe. but true.
this is generally my approach. like, in places like forums and when i can just be honest with people. of course there are times for politeness and respect(though generally i can take an approach somewhere inbetween). but when im playing a game, for example, i'd rather just be honest and straightforward - not pandering to other people's flaws.
Nice post travis, but there is one thing that bothers me with the last part. Considering folks hide behind a screen on the internet, I find it very dishonest/disconnected at the same time. You can practically say anything you want without any ramifications.
Online persona's tend to be very different from face-to-face in general. I hate generalizations. I like your style though because I'm very similar.
On August 14 2010 04:45 KlaCkoN wrote: When someone suggested that pro gamers interviewed on TV should make an effort to shave, shower and put on clean clothes before hand in order to make esports look more proffesional to outsiders the majority thought it was an excellent idea. When someone suggests that we maybe should stop using a word that to everyone outside of our little sub culture means sexual abuse to describe winning over someone in a video game people calls him an arrogant idiot -.-;; I would say that if people want esports to be taken seriously by sponsors and a wider audience then they have to start acting (and talking) like grown ups. Cutting words like "rape" and "faggot" from official casts is an excellent start in my oppinion.
Did that person ask EVERYONE to shave, shower and put on clean cloathes ever time they hopped on the internet?
I would of course support progamers not using the word rape in public, but that doesn't mean I support putting pressure on everyone to do so.
On August 14 2010 04:48 SpicyCrab wrote: For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all.
I can only express intense disappointment at the complete lack of maturity and understanding from this community and what makes me even more sad is that I know that TL is one of the most mature gaming communities that exists; I can only imagine what the response would be on a normal gaming forum.
Is there something you are trying to tell us? Please you can be honest. Whatever happened TL will listen and care about you .
On August 14 2010 04:46 neohero9 wrote: The amount of resistance to changing a single word in one's vocabulary to one which doesn't make people weep hysterically because of trauma, BECAUSE it makes people weep hysterically because of TRAUMA, is amazing.
It's not "something bad that happened to them". Being punched in the face in a barfight is something bad; dropping a hammer on your toe is something bad.
Having someone forcefully shove their cock inside of you AGAINST YOUR WILL is beyond "something bad".
If badness is the measuring stick used, not context, then beat is just as bad. Beaten wives, physical child abuse, the world is full of people scarred (both physically and emotionally) from being beaten. Of course in a gaming context it means something completely different to beat someone but we're disregarding context here.
You obviously either didn't read, or completely disregarded my post on p3.
No one on this site is going to care because none of them have been raped. Sad, but humans are evil. I feel bad for the OP, everyone is just pushing stupid comparisons in his face and laughing. I think its a fair request although I myself probably wouldn't put much effort into stop using the word. Rape is pretty terrible and personal experience, it's not really the same as using the word gay. When gay people see the word gay they aren't offended by it, theres no terrible experience behind it for them. But when a rape victim sees the word rape, its a different experience.
I personally think the word is OK. At worst, it's a metaphor. However, for practical reasons, I try to limit use, same with stuff like "gay", and other non-PC stuff. Aesthetically, I prefer more clever phrasing. Also, I agree it has little place in a professional or formal setting.
That said, outright banning/discouraging it bothers me a bit- it's illogical. If something is clearly non-offensive, and you are offended, some of the problem is on the receiver end. Both sides have to work together for the best balance imo. Let's not be quick to generalize and be overprotective of victim groups. Often they're a lot stronger than we give them credit for, and might find tiptoeing around them patronizing.
On August 14 2010 04:48 SpicyCrab wrote: For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all.
I can only express intense disappointment at the complete lack of maturity and understanding from this community and what makes me even more sad is that I know that TL is one of the most mature gaming communities that exists; I can only imagine what the response would be on a normal gaming forum.
i cant beliebe you actually made a thread about this. I'm really sorry for you. It's like complaining about speedlings or cracklings as drug addicts or ppl at rehab might feel bad hearing it. Jesus F christ. Or why to go that far, "he killed that marine". My father could have been a marine who was killed, shame on the casters. I'm seriously in shock. Something is really wrong with you man, or you re just trollnig hardcore.
I believe the game has some signs on it, eys i'm talking about the physical copy, which say violence and harsh language and idontknowevenwhatelse. Being raped? That must be terrible but you canot expect ppl to quit using words with negative meaning casually just because it might hurt some ppl.
On August 14 2010 04:48 SpicyCrab wrote: For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all.
I can only express intense disappointment at the complete lack of maturity and understanding from this community and what makes me even more sad is that I know that TL is one of the most mature gaming communities that exists; I can only imagine what the response would be on a normal gaming forum.
On August 14 2010 04:48 SpicyCrab wrote: For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all.
I can only express intense disappointment at the complete lack of maturity and understanding from this community and what makes me even more sad is that I know that TL is one of the most mature gaming communities that exists; I can only imagine what the response would be on a normal gaming forum.
It's not their fault - it's their problem. Of course it's not their fault that they got raped but they carry that burden with them - don't try to forcibly pass it on to the rest of us. This sounds really cold but it's the truth.
You can ask nicely for people to stop using it, but do more than that and you're going to get backlash.
On August 14 2010 04:48 SpicyCrab wrote: For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all.
I can only express intense disappointment at the complete lack of maturity and understanding from this community and what makes me even more sad is that I know that TL is one of the most mature gaming communities that exists; I can only imagine what the response would be on a normal gaming forum.
This kid is a troll. Please get rid of him.
No he is a rape victim, please don't downplay the obvious.
On August 14 2010 04:48 SpicyCrab wrote: For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all.
What a ridiculous straw man. I'm not trivilising rape, I wouldn't ever tell them to just get over it and it's certainly not their fault they got raped. If I wasn't emotionally invested in this argument at this point I'd hand down a warning for that because that kind of logic is akin to godwins law and simply ruins debates.
On August 14 2010 04:01 KwarK wrote: He's slaughtering those zealots could be offensive to victims of genocide.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
Really great post, and I completely agree with all of it 100%. I don't really use the word, "Rape" when I'm playing games, but I tend to say "Get banged on" which derived from my playing WoW and I also use "Get pooped on" or "Get shit on" (these are used most when I'm playing SSBB with my cousins and friends ^_^ man it's always fun as shit to play with them). Also one of my favorite words to use during gaming has got to be "Faggot" something about it just rolls off the tongue and exits the mouth like a nice good shit that you've been holding in an hour.
On August 14 2010 04:48 SpicyCrab wrote: For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all.
I can only express intense disappointment at the complete lack of maturity and understanding from this community and what makes me even more sad is that I know that TL is one of the most mature gaming communities that exists; I can only imagine what the response would be on a normal gaming forum.
The OP is incredibly naive. I've been there too of course, I think we all have; young, naive and full of simple answers. You're having a moral argument and you think you can just state "you're wrong. Sorry" and somehow win?
You don't win. You never win these arguments. These arguments are just people stating their opinions over and over, some based on rational thought while others are not, until everyone lose interest. Then another similar thread appears a month later and we all do the dance again.
Morals are not debatable. There are no simple answers.
I'd just like to make a point to those who are saying that rapes are much more prominent than all the other potential "beatings" "retards" "people being offended by X," that gaming culture appeals mostly to males. The chances you are encountering a random female on SC2 or some game is quite low, and for them to have been raped is even lower.
Just trying to counter the "this is a more valid reason because there are so many people who have been raped," argument, while there aren't many people who have X.
On August 14 2010 04:48 SpicyCrab wrote: For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all.
I can only express intense disappointment at the complete lack of maturity and understanding from this community and what makes me even more sad is that I know that TL is one of the most mature gaming communities that exists; I can only imagine what the response would be on a normal gaming forum.
On August 14 2010 04:48 SpicyCrab wrote: For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all.
I can only express intense disappointment at the complete lack of maturity and understanding from this community and what makes me even more sad is that I know that TL is one of the most mature gaming communities that exists; I can only imagine what the response would be on a normal gaming forum.
Dude, thats a paradox. Why is it so hard to accept that words have different meaning in different situations? Most children even learn this at a young age. Why havnt you?
Kind of like how gamers also call everyone fags, but not necessarily as a negative anti gay word, your just a fag if you go quick void ray, naw sayin? ^_^
On August 14 2010 04:45 Slow Motion wrote: It's an interesting utilitarian. Millions of gamers will be slightly hurt by forcing themselves not to say "rape." A few gamers will be very hurt when they hear the word rape. In the total aggregate, the greatest pleasure comes from people freely using the word as we do now. However, if we want to maximize average pleasure we should censor ourselves.
Oh and also I can't believe no one has posted this legendary thread yet. So mean but hilarious at the same time.
No. The greatest pleasure comes from changing it. See my post on Page 3.
Degree matters.
That's another difficulty with utilitarianism. You state that the greatest aggregate pleasure comes from not using the word but you have no way of actual comparison. My feeling is that a large majority of gamers on this site enjoy using the word "rape" to some small degree as opposed to censorship, while those who are either a little offended by it or very hurt (because of personal experiences) are in a very small minority. Of course I have no real proof of this beyond impression, but neither do you for your argument.
But if you play vT or vP you're killing intelligent beings :/ How is that not worse than rape? If I know someone whose family has been murdered do I have to apologize for playing Starcraft?
For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all.
Oh, come on. They do not have to get over it - but we also shouldn't have to get over it for them. If hearing the word 'rape' is painful for you, maybe you should talk about it rather than try to erase it from your surroundings ('you' being of course generic). That's a deeper problem than some random gamer's speech.
On August 14 2010 04:34 Eyeon wrote: My two younger brothers are both severely autistic, and I will never have a conversation with them ever. I got over the term "retard" being offensive pretty quickly. At least rape, as listed by KwarK, has other meanings and connotations other than the traditional definition.
In response to a ridiculous lack of ability to communicate between myself and some other players in a ums game the other day, I asked them "what, are you guys autistic?".
Out of curiosity, would that offend you? It sure offended one of them. I got a prompt "man that isn't cool". But I thought it was an entirely appropriate way of explaining what I thought, autistic people have trouble communicating right?
Its the Internet. We can't take into account everything we say and do in the context of anonymity. You get over stuff like that pretty quickly(if it bothered you at all to begin with). Changing the way we talk should be the least of our moral concerns in dealing with human interaction online.
On August 14 2010 04:48 SpicyCrab wrote: For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all.
I can only express intense disappointment at the complete lack of maturity and understanding from this community and what makes me even more sad is that I know that TL is one of the most mature gaming communities that exists; I can only imagine what the response would be on a normal gaming forum.
Yes. My use of the word is correct. I know. I even highlighted the bait.
The fact that you in that case lack the ability to comprehend why someone honestly might feel the need to argue the point that the word "rape" should be removed from gaming vernacular says quite a lot about you. The argument quoted might be bad yes, but it's not trolling.
This is disappointing - I honestly expected better of TL.
Look, it's intellectually dishonest to pretend that there's no association between the meaning of sexual assault in the word "rape" and the word many gamers like to use. Similarly, I would find it extremely hard to believe that many people using the word "gay" in a derogatory sense online do not know that the word also means homosexual.
Certainly, one may not actually be trying to intentionally invoke "sexual assault" or a "gay=bad" connection when these words are used, but it is clear that there is a connection that does hurt people, and to pretend that it's an entirely new word that coincidentally happens to sound like words used hurtfully is just bullshit.
The argument is whether or not you should inconvenience yourself (like not saying "nigger" even if you'd love to, because you understand how others may feel about the word) versus whether or not you wanna say "fuck it, it's their problem". Essentially, you're defending your own convenience over someone else's feelings - if it really *is* that trivial, why not just stop?
On August 14 2010 04:45 Slow Motion wrote: It's an interesting utilitarian. Millions of gamers will be slightly hurt by forcing themselves not to say "rape." A few gamers will be very hurt when they hear the word rape. In the total aggregate, the greatest pleasure comes from people freely using the word as we do now. However, if we want to maximize average pleasure we should censor ourselves.
Oh and also I can't believe no one has posted this legendary thread yet. So mean but hilarious at the same time.
No. The greatest pleasure comes from changing it. See my post on Page 3.
Degree matters.
That's another difficulty with utilitarianism. You state that the greatest aggregate pleasure comes from not using the word but you have no way of actual comparison. My feeling is that a large majority of gamers on this site enjoy using the word "rape" to some small degree as opposed to censorship, while those who are either a little offended by it or very hurt (because of personal experiences) are in a very small minority. Of course I have no real proof of this beyond impression, but neither do you for your argument.
The degree of pleasure gained by gamers using the word "rape" is nearly zero; they can substitute another word, with approximately the same meaning, without the vile connotation that rape has. Its actual definition doesn't matter; the immediate thought that comes to mind when someone says the word to another normal person is the issue.
However, the amount of pain dredged up from someone being reminded of this thing that happened to them is incredible. I will never know what it's like to have endured this kind of trauma-- my girlfriend does. I can see the pain she goes thru when a rape scene happens in a movie, or when my brother and his friend make rape jokes. It's something I will never feel, but it is something that is worse than anything I could ever gain by employing this word.
Even if it were a million people tossing this word around, against one lone person on the planet who had been raped, we ought to change it because the degrees are in favor of doing so.
Gretorp used to say raping bitches a lot, but then changed it up because he wanted to be more sensitive and professional. Now he uses bopping clowns, but it means the same thing.
Also, some of you may not acknowledge this, but guys can rape girls, girls can rape guys, girls can rape girls, and guys can rape guys.
I don't really care if anyone uses the word rape in gaming. Everyone knows the connotation and meaning, and at some people you just have to learn to accept it.
I agree with the OP but I'm losing my will to provide good arguments for my opinions because they hardly ever make a difference amongst this crowd. I suppose most gamers have a strong enough combination of feebleness and selfishness that improving their vocabulary for this cause is an insurmountable task. But they feel a bit of guilt so they must repel it with embarrassingly stupid rationalizations and that's the purpose this thread now seems to serve.
On August 14 2010 04:48 SpicyCrab wrote: For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all.
I can only express intense disappointment at the complete lack of maturity and understanding from this community and what makes me even more sad is that I know that TL is one of the most mature gaming communities that exists; I can only imagine what the response would be on a normal gaming forum.
Yes. My use of the word is correct. I know. I even highlighted the bait.
The fact that you in that case lack the ability to comprehend why someone honestly might feel the need to argue the point that the word "rape" should be removed from gaming vernacular says quite a lot about you. The argument quoted might be bad yes, but it's not trolling.
Agreed. It's quite obvious the OP is quite sincere with his point. Whether or not you think his argument sucks is irrelevant of him trolling this thread. To think so is quite ignorant - his intentions are not arguable. He's not asking for censorship or anything, he's pleading for people to be more aware about situations that are hurting trauma victims. He may have used a very poor argument in a subsequent post to try and make a point, but that doesn't make him a troll.
On August 14 2010 05:01 zerglingsfolife wrote: Also, some of you may not acknowledge this, but guys can rape girls, girls can rape guys, girls can rape girls, and guys can rape guys..
I think the OP is oversensitive. One of my sister's best friends is a rape victim and I've yelled you just got raped around her while playing guitar hero. She wasn't offended or hurt because she understands that it's an expression.
To be completely honest I think that words have NO meaning, it's the thoughts and ideas behind them. By itself a word is merely a sound or a bunch of letters written down, it's when we give them a meaning that the become offensive and crude. If you're incapable of interpreting a situation where a sound is made then it isn't exactly the fault of the natives is it? Rape is integral to the gamer culture because it's used to exclaim something that was overwhelming in a monosyllabic form. Fuck Shit Ass Piss Cunt Twat and Faggot all fall into this category of words that people get too upset by. If I say faggot it doesn't mean I'm homophobic, look at the meaning behind my yelling. If I look at a homosexual and snarl the word faggot and turn up my nose that's homophobic, BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WORD FAGGOT all of my actions tone and body language are what is offensive the word is just there to ensure they remember exactly what I was doing to them.
This is the 21st century and being held up on the dogma of "Bad Words" is to quote penn and teller, Bullshit.
For my final addition to this thread leave you with George Carlin's thoughts on Rape + Show Spoiler +
Iceboxman Technologies PocketPC Software Leader George Carlin's Explicit Lyrics CD
1. Offensive Language 2. I Ain't Afraid Of Cancer 3. Some People Are Stupid 4. Rape Can Be Funny 5. Feminist Blowjob 6. Good Ideas 7. Things You Never See 8. Things You Never Hear 9. Things You Don't Wanna Hear 10. Life's Little Moments 11. I Love My Dog 12. Organ Donor Programs 13. Don't Pull The Plug On Me 14. They're Only Words 15. Euphemisms
Thank you, thank you, welcome to our show. Don't you think it's just a little bit strange that Ronald Reagan had an operation on his asshole and George Bush had an operation on his middle finger. Huh? Huh? What are these two men trying to tell us?
Now I'd like to begin tonight with an opening announcement: Because of the FCC, I'm never sure what it is I'm allowed to say. So..so, I now have my own official policy: This is the language you will not be hearing tonight.
You will not hear me say: bottom line, game plan, role model, scenario, or hopefully. I will not kick back, mellow out, or be on a roll. I will not go for it and I will not check it out; I don't even know what it is. And when I leave here I definitely will not boogie. I promise not to refer to anyone as a class act, a beautiful person or a happy camper. I will also not be saying "what a guy." And you will not hear me refer to anyone's lifestyle. If you want to know what a moronic word "lifestyle" is, all you have to do is realize that in a technical sense, Atilla the Hun had an active outdoor lifestyle. I will also not be saying any cute things like "moi." And I will not use the French adverb "tre" to modify any English adjectives. Such as "tre awesome," "tre gnarly," "tre fabou," "tre intense," or "tre out-of-sight." I will not say concept when I mean idea. I will not say impacted when I mean affected. There will be no hands-on state-of-the-art networking. We will not maximize, prioritize, or finalize...and we definitely will not interface. There will also...there will also be no new-age lingo spoken here tonight. No support-group jargon from the human potential movement. For instance, I will not share anything with you. I will not relate to you and you will not identify with me. I will give you no input, and I will expect no feedback. This will not be a learning experience, nor will it be a growth period. There'll be no sharing, no caring, no birthing, no bonding, no parenting, no nurturing. We will not establish a relationship, we will not have any meaningful dialogue and we definitely will not spend any quality time. We will not be supportive of one another, so that we can get in touch with our feelings in order to feel good about ourselves. And if you're one of those people who needs a little space...please...go the fuck outside.
Yeah, about time for me to get a little drink of water. Figure this stuff is safe to drink? Huh? Actually I don't care if it's safe or not, I drink it anyway. You know why? Cause I'm an American and I expect a little cancer in my food and water. That's right, I'm a loyal American and I'm not happy unless I've let government and industry poison me a little bit every day. Let me have a few hundred thousand carcinogens here.
Ahh, a little cancer never hurt anybody. Everybody needs a little cancer I think. It's good for you. Keeps you on you're toes. Besides, I ain't afraid of cancer...I had broccoli for lunch. Broccoli kills cancer. A lot of people don't know that, it's not out yet. It's true. You find out you got some cancer...(click) get yourself a fucking bowl of broccoli. That'll wipe it right out in a day or two. Cauliflower too. Cauliflower kills the really big cancers. The ones you can see through clothing from across the street. Broccoli kills the little ones. The ones that are slowly eating your way from inside...while your goddamn, goofy, half- educated doctor keeps telling you, "your doing fine Jim." In fact bring your doctor a bowl of broccoli. He's probably got cancer too. Probably picked it up from you. They don't know what they're doing, it's all guesswork in a white coat. Here, let me have a few more sips of industrial waste.
Ahh, maybe...maybe I can turn them cancers against one another. That's what you gotta hope for you know, that you get more than one cancer so they eat each other up instead of you. In fact, the way I look at it, the more cancer you got, the healthier you are.
Well I know, some people don't like you to talk about those things. I know that. Some people don't like you to mention certain things. Some people don't want you to say this. Some people don't want you to say that. Some people think if you mention some things they might happen...some people are really fucking stupid!
Did you ever notice that? How many really stupid people you run into during the day? Goddam there's a lot of stupid bastards walking around. Carry a little pad and pencil with you. You'll wind up with thirty or forty names by the end of the day. Look at it this way: Think of how stupid the average person is and then realize that half of them are stupider than that. And it doesn't take you very long to spot one of them does it? Take you about eight seconds. You'll be listening to some guy...you say..."this guy is fucking stupid!" Then...then there are some people, they're not stupid...they're full of shit. Huh? That doesn't take very long to spot either, does it? Take you about the same amount of time. You'll be listening to some guy..and saying, "well, he's fairly intelligent......ahht, he's full of shit!" Then there are some people, they're not stupid, they're not full of shit...they're fucking nuts! Dan Quayle is all three! All three! Stupid, full of shit, and fucking nuts! And where did he get that wife of his? Have you taken a good look at that Marilyn Quayle? Where did he get her, at a Halloween party or something? She looks like Prince Charles for Christ sake! Let me ask you something, does he actually have to fuck that women! Huh? God help him, I wouldn't fuck her with a stolen dick! That's my political humor. People like it when you're topical.
Ohhh, some people don't like you to talk like that. Ohh, some people like to shut you up for saying those things. You know that. Lots of people. Lots of groups in this country want to tell you how to talk. Tell you what you can't talk about. Well, sometimes they'll say, well you can talk about something but you can't joke about it. Say you can't joke about something because it's not funny. Comedians run into that shit all the time. Like rape. They'll say, "you can't joke about rape. Rape's not funny." I say, "fuck you, I think it's hilarious. How do you like that?" I can prove to you that rape is funny. Picture Porky Pig raping Elmer Fudd. See, hey why do you think they call him "Porky," eh? I know what you're going to say. "Elmer was asking for it. Elmer was coming on to Porky. Porky couldn't help himself, he got a hard- on, he got horney, he lost control, he went out of his mind." A lot of men talk like that. A lot of men think that way. They think it's the woman's fault. They like to blame the rape on the woman. Say, "she had it coming, she was wearing a short skirt." These guys think women ought to go to prison for being cock teasers. Don't seem fair to me. Don't seem right, but you can joke about it. I believe you can joke about anything. It all depends on how you construct the joke. What the exaggeration is. What the exaggeration is. Because every joke needs one exaggeration. Every joke needs one thing to be way out of proportion. Give you an example. Did you ever see a news story like this in the paper? Every now and then you run into a story, says, "some guy broke into a house, stole a lot of things, and while he was in there, he raped an 81 year old woman." And I'm thinking to myself, "WHY??? What the fuck kind of a social life does this guy have?" I want to say, "why did you do that?" "Well she was coming on to me. We were dancing and I got horney. Hey, she was asking for it, she had on a tight bathrobe." I'll say, "Jesus Christ, be a little fucking selective next time will you?"
Now, speaking of rape, do you know what I wonder? I wonder is there more rape at the equator or the north pole. These are the kind of things I think about when I'm sitting home alone and the power goes out. I wonder is there more rape at the equator or the north pole. I mean per capita, I know the populations are different. Most people think it's the equator, I think it's the north pole. People think it's the equator because it's hot down there, they don't wear a lot of clothing, guys can see women's tits, they get horney and there's a lot of fucking going on. That's exactly why there's less rape at the equator. Because there's a lot of fucking going on. You can tell there's a lot of fucking at the equator, take a look at the population figures. Billions of people live near the equator. How many Eskimos do we have? Thirty? Thirty five? No one's getting laid at the north pole, it's too fucking cold. Guys say to their wives, "hey tonight honey, huh, tonight, huh?" "Are you crazy? The wind chill factor is three hundred below." These guys are deprived. Their horney. Their pent up. Every now and then...p-pmm...they bust out, they got to rape somebody.
Now, the biggest problem an Eskimo rapist has, trying to get wet leather leggings off a woman who is kicking. Did you ever try to get leather pants off of someone who doesn't want to take them off? You would lose your hard-on in the process. Up at the north pole you dick would shrivel up like a stack of dimes. That's another thing I wonder. I wonder, does a rapist have a hard-on when he leaves the house in the morning, or does he develop it during the day while he's walking around looking for somebody. These are the kind of thoughts that kept me out of the really good schools.
Now I've probably got the feminists all pissed off at me because I'm joking about rape. Feminists want to control your language. Feminists want to tell you how to talk. And they're not alone. Their not alone. I'm not picking on the feminists. They got a lot of company in this country. There's a lot of groups, a lot of institutions in this country want to control your language. Tell you what you can say and what you can't say. Government wants to tell you some things you can't say because it's against the law. Well you can't say this because it's against the regulation. Well here's something you can't say because it's a secret. "You can't tell him that, because he's not clear to know that." Government wants to control information and control language, because that's the way you control thought...and basically that's the game they're in. Same with religion. Religion is nothing but mind control. Religion is just trying to control your mind, control your thought, so they're going to tell you some things you shouldn't say because they're sins. And besides telling you some things you shouldn't say, religion's going to suggest to you some things you ought to be saying. Here's something you ought to say first thing when you wake up in the morning. Here's something you ought to say just before you go to sleep at night. Here's something we always say on the third Wednesday in April after the first full moon in spring at four o'clock when the bells ring. Religion is always suggesting things you ought to be saying. Same with political groups of all kinds, political activists, anti- bias groups, special interest groups, are going to suggest the correct political vocabulary. The way you ought to be saying things, and that's where the feminists come in.
As I said, I got nothing against the feminists. In fact, I happen to agree with most of the feminist philosophy I have read. I agree for instance, that for the most part, men are vain, ignorant, greedy, brutal assholes who've just about ruined this planet...who've just...who've just about ruined this planet because they're afraid someone might have a bigger dick out there somewhere. Men are basically insecure about the size of their dicks and so they go to war over it. You don't have to be a political scientist or a history major to see the bigger dick foreign policy theory at work. It goes something like this..."what they have bigger dicks? Bomb them!!!" And of course the bombs and the bullets and the rockets are all shaped like dicks. I don't understand that part of it, but it is part of the equation. So I agree with that abstract. That man... men...males have pushed the technology that just about has this planet in a stranglehold. Mother Earth raped again, guess who..."hey she was asking for it."
On August 14 2010 04:54 Osmoses wrote: Morals are not debatable.
Morals are debatable and definable. You've obviously never spent a lot of time looking into this.
I have to agree with him, there is nothing to debate in regards to morals. Morals are based on emotion rather than rationality. The act of doing something that is 'morally incorrect' only has an impact on the individual's feelings, it has nothing to do with the act actually being right or wrong. Moral codes are inconsistant from person to person.
If i said rape in front of a rape victim and they broke down in tears, i wouldn't change my vocabulary or ideals or values or w/e the shit u guys are sprouting in here. I would just call a therapist and get her/him(?) some help. Dodeedo
On August 14 2010 04:48 SpicyCrab wrote: For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all.
I can only express intense disappointment at the complete lack of maturity and understanding from this community and what makes me even more sad is that I know that TL is one of the most mature gaming communities that exists; I can only imagine what the response would be on a normal gaming forum.
Been there done that. Like I said, you aren't going to change the culture. As long as you make one or two people think twice about how they approach it then you've done your job. Your thread was a success. Anything more would be fruitless.
Don't put words in our mouths. I'm sure I'm not the only one who understands it. I'm sure many of us know people who have been actually raped. Don't take it out of context. No pun intended.
You said your spiel; you got the pet peeve off your chest. Everyone has pet peeves. C'est la vie; that is life.
There are many derogatory terms in gaming terminology. Heck, there are many social stigmas associated with gaming. The media and rest of the world won't treat us any different maturity wise. It is what it is.
On August 14 2010 04:54 Osmoses wrote: Morals are not debatable.
Morals are debatable and definable. You've obviously never spent a lot of time looking into this.
I believe you are talking about ethics. Morals are the values embedded in you since day 1. They are almost impossible to change let alone debate. Argue maybe, but a moral debate for the sake of changing the other person's views is pointless and won't work. Ethic on the other hand encompass the gray area and were probably what you were thinking about. They are regularly debated and usually revolve around dilemmas where there is no 100% correct answer.
On the matter of rape, I think we should create a rhyming word to express the gaming version.
On August 14 2010 05:03 HeavOnEarth wrote: If i said rape in front of a rape victim and they broke down in tears, i wouldn't change my vocabulary or ideals or values or w/e the shit u guys are sprouting in here. I would just call a therapist and get her/him(?) some help. Dodeedo
On August 14 2010 04:54 Osmoses wrote: Morals are not debatable.
Morals are debatable and definable. You've obviously never spent a lot of time looking into this.
I have to agree with him, there is nothing to debate in regards to morals. Morals are based on emotion rather than rationality. The act of doing something that is 'morally incorrect' only has an impact on the individual's feelings, it has nothing to do with the act actually being right or wrong. Moral codes are inconsistant from person to person.
Just because they are inconsistent doesn't mean they can't be defined. Most people lack the proper tools to do so, is all.
If morality didn't exist outside of individuals, murder would not be a crime. Nor would rape.
On August 14 2010 04:48 SpicyCrab wrote: For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all.
I can only express intense disappointment at the complete lack of maturity and understanding from this community and what makes me even more sad is that I know that TL is one of the most mature gaming communities that exists; I can only imagine what the response would be on a normal gaming forum.
Yes. My use of the word is correct. I know. I even highlighted the bait.
The fact that you in that case lack the ability to comprehend why someone honestly might feel the need to argue the point that the word "rape" should be removed from gaming vernacular says quite a lot about you. The argument quoted might be bad yes, but it's not trolling.
It does say a lot about me, you're right. I like reading and I'm an adult. No one in the entire thread ever said anything about rape being the victim's fault or that its not a big deal. The post that I quoted is either:
a) An idiot posting something stupid. b) A troll, straw-maning and trying to fish for more responses.
I don't have a problem with casters omitting the word rape if they want. That is their choice. The idea that, if they don't, they are being small-minded or hurtful is something I don't agree with. It's just a word being used in the correct context. There are lots of spoken words that will cause someones ears to perk up. Niggardly is a good example. You can't omit words from the english language because they are hurtful to some individuals.
On August 14 2010 05:03 Megalisk wrote: inb4 kids agree with nony solely because he is nony without actually reading the thread
you read the thread. it's full of bizarre hypothetical defenses and chest-thumping selfishness. "I won't change my vocabulary if it hurts someone! THAT'S FREEDOM BABY!"
Morals are not debatable. There are no simple answers.
Don't worry son, you'll grow out of it.
They are debatable just because there are no simple answers. That's how our morals have progressed over the last couple of thousand years, through philosophy and debate.
On August 14 2010 04:54 Osmoses wrote: Morals are not debatable.
Morals are debatable and definable. You've obviously never spent a lot of time looking into this.
I believe you are talking about ethics. Morals are the values embedded in you since day 1. They are almost impossible to change let alone debate. Argue maybe, but a moral debate for the sake of changing the other person's views is pointless and won't work. Ethic on the other hand encompass the gray area and were probably what you were thinking about. They are regularly debated and usually revolve around dilemmas where there is no 100% correct answer.
On the matter of rape, I think we should create a rhyming word to express the gaming version.
Shall we use Grape... oh wait, blizzard's forum word filter also filters out that word. Try discussing the Grapes of Wrath and see what it gets you on there.... but I digress...
On August 14 2010 05:01 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I agree with the OP but I'm losing my will to provide good arguments for my opinions because they hardly ever make a difference amongst this crowd. I suppose most gamers have a strong enough combination of feebleness and selfishness that improving their vocabulary for this cause is an insurmountable task. But they feel a bit of guilt so they must repel it with embarrassingly stupid rationalizations and that's the purpose this thread now seems to serve.
It's far more selfish for someone to ask me to censor myself so they cannot be offended by their own ignorance than it is for me to speak freely and risk them hurting themselves. As I said on the first page, I don't use the word, but I will always object whenever anyone demands censorship to avoid their own issues, be it religious, scientific or emotional.
On August 14 2010 04:45 Slow Motion wrote: It's an interesting utilitarian. Millions of gamers will be slightly hurt by forcing themselves not to say "rape." A few gamers will be very hurt when they hear the word rape. In the total aggregate, the greatest pleasure comes from people freely using the word as we do now. However, if we want to maximize average pleasure we should censor ourselves.
Oh and also I can't believe no one has posted this legendary thread yet. So mean but hilarious at the same time.
No. The greatest pleasure comes from changing it. See my post on Page 3.
Degree matters.
That's another difficulty with utilitarianism. You state that the greatest aggregate pleasure comes from not using the word but you have no way of actual comparison. My feeling is that a large majority of gamers on this site enjoy using the word "rape" to some small degree as opposed to censorship, while those who are either a little offended by it or very hurt (because of personal experiences) are in a very small minority. Of course I have no real proof of this beyond impression, but neither do you for your argument.
The degree of pleasure gained by gamers using the word "rape" is nearly zero; they can substitute another word, with approximately the same meaning, without the vile connotation that rape has. It's actual definition doesn't matter; the immediate thought that comes to mind when someone says the word to another normal person is the issue.
However, the amount of pain dredged up from someone being reminded of this thing that happened to them is incredible. I will never know what it's like to have endured this kind of trauma-- my girlfriend does. I can see the pain she goes thru when a rape scene happens in a movie, or when my brother and his friend make rape jokes. It's something I will never feel, but it is something that is worse than anything I could ever gain by employing this word.
Even if it were a million people tossing this word around, against one lone person on the planet who had been raped, we ought to change it because the degrees are in favor of doing so.
See that's the problem here, is it is very hard to compare small pleasures added up many times against a single instance great suffering. There is no real mathematical way to do it even though we use mathematical terms. In the end there is only our beliefs about what produces the greatest pleasure. I personally think it produces more pleasure for the many on this site to use the word "rape" than pain to the few like you who have been personally touched.
My wishful thinking is that if people's defence is that the use of the word is arbitrary and harmless, then take on board some of the issues here and use apolitical words.
Importantly I also sincerely do believe that a worrying proporition of the gaming community actually do use terms "Rape" "Gay" "Fag" with a 'knowing' malicious intent because, let's face it, the gaming industry promotes overwhelmingly hetero-normative values given that its audience is primarily male youth.
On August 14 2010 05:01 zerglingsfolife wrote: Also, some of you may not acknowledge this, but guys can rape girls, girls can rape guys, girls can rape girls, and guys can rape guys..
This really has nothing to do with anything.
On August 14 2010 03:56 SpicyCrab wrote: And we wonder why women don't want to join our communities and play us?
Goddamit they closed the 'epic' topic before I could answer!
So here: The teacher comes into the class room:
"Kids, there are two words I want you to stop using in my classrom. The first one is epic, and the other one is lame." "Ok teacher, sure, which words?"
Ahem. Apart from that, I have to agree with OP that rape is a bad word to use. Owning, roflstomping, etc, etc, we have so many suitable synonyms that are much better.
On August 14 2010 04:48 SpicyCrab wrote: For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all.
I can only express intense disappointment at the complete lack of maturity and understanding from this community and what makes me even more sad is that I know that TL is one of the most mature gaming communities that exists; I can only imagine what the response would be on a normal gaming forum.
Yes. My use of the word is correct. I know. I even highlighted the bait.
The fact that you in that case lack the ability to comprehend why someone honestly might feel the need to argue the point that the word "rape" should be removed from gaming vernacular says quite a lot about you. The argument quoted might be bad yes, but it's not trolling.
It does say a lot about me, you're right. I like reading and I'm an adult. No one in the entire thread ever said anything about rape being the victim's fault or that its not a big deal. The post that I quoted is either:
a) An idiot posting something stupid. b) A troll, straw-maning and trying to fish for more responses.
I don't have a problem with casters omitting the word rape if they want. That is their choice. The idea that, if they don't, they are being small-minded or hurtful is something I don't agree with. It's just a word being used in the correct context. There are lots of spoken words that will cause someones ears to perk up. Niggardly is a good example. You can't omit words from the english language because they are hurtful to some individuals.
Omitting the word from the language is not the point.
Removing it from our vocabulary because it provides NO GAIN, at GREAT (if infrequently incurred) COST is.
I try to avoid using any time of internet slang in case it seeps into everyday conversation. Also because a lot of it makes you sound immature and strange. I'm talking about words like 'owned', 'raped', and 'fail'.
I also have to avoid using 'gay' and 'faggot' even as playful insults because it would offend my gay friends if I blurted it out of habit.
And the same with 'nazi' for the few german people I know.
I'm not going to convince others to do the same though, not only is it impossible, but for people who's main community is an online gaming one you could even call it the social norm.
On August 14 2010 05:03 Megalisk wrote: inb4 kids agree with nony solely because he is nony without actually reading the thread
you read the thread. it's full of bizarre hypothetical defenses and chest-thumping selfishness. "I won't change my vocabulary if it hurts someone! THAT'S FREEDOM BABY!"
Ok I'm sorry, I'll stop using rape and only stick to the norm like "kill". Oh wait whats that? Thousands of more people are killed everyday than raped. I guess I cant use that either because its offensive. Those zealots got "snugglepuffed" by those vultures. Now thats more like it!~
On August 14 2010 05:03 Megalisk wrote: inb4 kids agree with nony solely because he is nony without actually reading the thread
you read the thread. it's full of bizarre hypothetical defenses and chest-thumping selfishness. "I won't change my vocabulary if it hurts someone! THAT'S FREEDOM BABY!"
That's not the point people are making at all. People are making the point that words have different meaning in different context and that people will get hurt regardless, our usage of the word "Rape" is probably the least of real rape victims problems. They will not fucking forget about it if we stop using the word.
On August 14 2010 05:00 SpicyCrab wrote: Why should we even force them to deal with that? Why should we push this in their faces?
Because it's fun for us? Because it's easier? Because we enjoy using the word?
Really?
Who the hell is forcing them to deal with it and push it in their faces? Are you trying to stop the whole world from using the word "Rape" and should this word be so damned forbidden? I can understand stopping the use on forums or specific things in a thread, but one thing is for sure, you won't stop this use of the word in the real world.
edit: also, don't look down on TL just because some of us like to use the word "Rape" I found that to be pretty arrogant.
There's nothing wrong about using the word rape in video games, because by similar logic, video games should also not be violent because people are physically assaulted and murdered all the time. As long as the word rape is used to describe excessively overcoming an opponent in a video game, there's nothing wrong with it.
After reading this thread for the last 20 mintues, I now know how Keanu Reeves felt in Speed as he saw his bomb-rigged bus begin to approach the stretch of incomplete highway.
On August 14 2010 04:48 SpicyCrab wrote: For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all.
I can only express intense disappointment at the complete lack of maturity and understanding from this community and what makes me even more sad is that I know that TL is one of the most mature gaming communities that exists; I can only imagine what the response would be on a normal gaming forum.
Yes. My use of the word is correct. I know. I even highlighted the bait.
The fact that you in that case lack the ability to comprehend why someone honestly might feel the need to argue the point that the word "rape" should be removed from gaming vernacular says quite a lot about you. The argument quoted might be bad yes, but it's not trolling.
It does say a lot about me, you're right. I like reading and I'm an adult. No one in the entire thread ever said anything about rape being the victim's fault or that its not a big deal. The post that I quoted is either:
a) An idiot posting something stupid. b) A troll, straw-maning and trying to fish for more responses.
I don't have a problem with casters omitting the word rape if they want. That is their choice. The idea that, if they don't, they are being small-minded or hurtful is something I don't agree with. It's just a word being used in the correct context. There are lots of spoken words that will cause someones ears to perk up. Niggardly is a good example. You can't omit words from the english language because they are hurtful to some individuals.
The point is that he wasn't intentionally using a strawman or was "fishing for more responses." That is quite clear if you've followed this thread. Doing so unintentionally is completely different, and can fall under category A if you really want it to.
You seem to miss the fact that many users in this thread have indicated that they don't think it's a big deal and that the impetus should be on the victims to get over it.
So I was making the point that that is incorrect. And that we should not put the blame on the victim in any way. We should not assign guilt to a victim for being hurt by the word. That is not trolling, and it's not really a straw man either. :/
On August 14 2010 05:02 iSiN wrote: If I say faggot it doesn't mean I'm homophobic, look at the meaning behind my yelling. If I look at a homosexual and snarl the word faggot and turn up my nose that's homophobic, BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WORD FAGGOT all of my actions tone and body language are what is offensive the word is just there to ensure they remember exactly what I was doing to them.
You don't mean to be homophobic when you say faggot, but the gay dude who got the shit beaten out of him in school and had to go through hell growing up and was constantly called faggot .. well, he needs to realize that words have different meanings? How about, instead, you realize that words don't exist in a vacuum. You don't get to make up what words mean, despite what people in this thread tell you. Rape and faggot have long histories and although words do change over time, these two words have not lost any of their more terrible meanings.
On August 14 2010 05:03 Megalisk wrote: inb4 kids agree with nony solely because he is nony without actually reading the thread
you read the thread. it's full of bizarre hypothetical defenses and chest-thumping selfishness. "I won't change my vocabulary if it hurts someone! THAT'S FREEDOM BABY!"
Ok I'm sorry, I'll stop using rape and only stick to the norm like "kill". Oh wait whats that? Thousands of more people are killed everyday than raped. I guess I cant use that either because its offensive. Those zealots got "snugglepuffed" by those vultures. Now thats more like it!~
this thread is much to large to read, but i'd like to add (if it hasn't already) when I was in highschool, kids used the phrase "i raped that test" all the time. I thought it was a funny way to put it at the time, but we found out in ap lang that one of the girls in our class was raped. Even if she didn't care at all, i think humans should have enough decency to use a different wording just in case she does care, you never know who has been raped, especially since they rapin errbody out heeyuh.
seriously though, it's SO much easier to not say rape than it is to get over the psychological damage of being raped.
On August 14 2010 05:03 Megalisk wrote: inb4 kids agree with nony solely because he is nony without actually reading the thread
you read the thread. it's full of bizarre hypothetical defenses and chest-thumping selfishness. "I won't change my vocabulary if it hurts someone! THAT'S FREEDOM BABY!"
Ok I'm sorry, I'll stop using rape and only stick to the norm like "kill". Oh wait whats that? Thousands of more people are killed everyday than raped. I guess I cant use that either because its offensive. Those zealots got "snugglepuffed" by those vultures. Now thats more like it!~
lol indeed
yeah because the 'norms' reduce your degree of articulation into words of complete semantic irrelevance like "snugglepuff"
On August 14 2010 05:03 Megalisk wrote: inb4 kids agree with nony solely because he is nony without actually reading the thread
you read the thread. it's full of bizarre hypothetical defenses and chest-thumping selfishness. "I won't change my vocabulary if it hurts someone! THAT'S FREEDOM BABY!"
Ok I'm sorry, I'll stop using rape and only stick to the norm like "kill". Oh wait whats that? Thousands of more people are killed everyday than raped. I guess I cant use that either because its offensive. Those zealots got "snugglepuffed" by those vultures. Now thats more like it!~
lol indeed
yeah because the 'norms' reduce your degree of articulation into words of complete semantic irrelevance like "snugglepuff"
Best watch out homie or I'll have to snugglepuff u.
On August 14 2010 05:01 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I agree with the OP but I'm losing my will to provide good arguments for my opinions because they hardly ever make a difference amongst this crowd. I suppose most gamers have a strong enough combination of feebleness and selfishness that improving their vocabulary for this cause is an insurmountable task. But they feel a bit of guilt so they must repel it with embarrassingly stupid rationalizations and that's the purpose this thread now seems to serve.
It's far more selfish for someone to ask me to censor myself so they cannot be offended by their own ignorance than it is for me to speak freely and risk them hurting themselves. As I said on the first page, I don't use the word, but I will always object whenever anyone demands censorship to avoid their own issues, be it religious, scientific or emotional.
Oh, please, not "censorship" now. He's trying to convince people not to use a word in a certain way because he thinks it's bad. If you're not convinced, you're not convinced. You keep using it or tolerating it or defending it. Fine. People deciding for themselves what to say and what not to say has nothing to do with censorship at all. At all.
And if I got it right, he did not say "stop it, it offends me", but "stop it, it potentially hurts countless rape victims". The former would be selfish, the latter not so much.
On August 14 2010 05:11 UbOs wrote: this thread is much to large to read, but i'd like to add (if it hasn't already) when I was in highschool, kids used the phrase "i raped that test" all the time. I thought it was a funny way to put it at the time, but we found out in ap lang that one of the girls in our class was raped. Even if she didn't care at all, i think humans should have enough decency to use a different wording just in case she does care, you never know who has been raped, especially since they rapin errbody out heeyuh.
seriously though, it's SO much easier to not say rape than it is to get over the psychological damage of being raped.
Except you gain nothing by not saying rape, and they gain everything by getting over their psychological damage.
On August 14 2010 05:03 Megalisk wrote: inb4 kids agree with nony solely because he is nony without actually reading the thread
you read the thread. it's full of bizarre hypothetical defenses and chest-thumping selfishness. "I won't change my vocabulary if it hurts someone! THAT'S FREEDOM BABY!"
Ok I'm sorry, I'll stop using rape and only stick to the norm like "kill". Oh wait whats that? Thousands of more people are killed everyday than raped. I guess I cant use that either because its offensive. Those zealots got "snugglepuffed" by those vultures. Now thats more like it!~
lol indeed
yeah because the 'norms' reduce your degree of articulation into words of complete semantic irrelevance like "snugglepuff"
Best watch out homie or I'll have to snugglepuff u.
On August 14 2010 05:03 Megalisk wrote: inb4 kids agree with nony solely because he is nony without actually reading the thread
you read the thread. it's full of bizarre hypothetical defenses and chest-thumping selfishness. "I won't change my vocabulary if it hurts someone! THAT'S FREEDOM BABY!"
Ok I'm sorry, I'll stop using rape and only stick to the norm like "kill". Oh wait whats that? Thousands of more people are killed everyday than raped. I guess I cant use that either because its offensive. Those zealots got "snugglepuffed" by those vultures. Now thats more like it!~
lol indeed
yeah because the 'norms' reduce your degree of articulation into words of complete semantic irrelevance like "snugglepuff"
Best watch out homie or I'll have to snugglepuff u.
Be my guest, ill dragonite you to into submission
I once owned a dragonite, but hes gone now . Please change your post I find it offensive .
i mean if you're watching baseball and someone hits the ball really hard you could say "oh my god, he absolutely murdered that ball." or even worse "he killed it out there." sometimes i even hear "he totally abused him down low" which is clearly talking about basketball and playing in the post.
but that does not diminish the crime of murder, or killing or any kind of abuse.
me personally i use "destroyed." as in "i went over to play SF4 and i just got straight destroyed."
but still, i don't see the problem in using "rape."
i am against the word "gay" though, because you took a term that defines a group of people and are applying it to something negative, making it seem like the original meaning is also negative.
Unfortunately, when I see a bunch of marines getting shredded by stop lurkers, only one word comes to mind. Also, I don't like to use "PWNED". Maybe "Terrible, Terrible Damage" is the right substitute. Long though.
Agree with OP. Giving rape a double meaning (well, triple if you count the plant) in the way it does, where the action of rape in one context is a glorification of 'the rapist', while in the other context it is one of the most gruesome things in life, is bad. Me saying it is bad won't help out the cause of getting rid of it at all, but perhaps those 'in power' for such things, mainly casters, could make a difference. If they so feel like, of course.
The statistics for sexual harassment are shocking. It's hard to find some global statics, I googled this and I've read numbers between 50% and 80% before. There are a lot of people who don't feel comfortable with the usage of such a word, think about it. Even if peer pressure makes you fear to be seen as a wuss for abstaining from using 'rape' the wrong way.
ok cool lets shift over to "LOL YOU GOT HOLOCAUSTED," since the demographic that is offended by that is decreasing per day.
more seriously though, i think the use of "rape" in videogame domination context actually contains a bit of sympathy for the victim? or maybe this is just in my head?
On August 14 2010 04:01 KwarK wrote: He's slaughtering those zealots could be offensive to victims of genocide.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
On August 14 2010 04:27 KwarK wrote: Unfortunately rape does not simply mean rape. –verb (used with object) 6. to force to have sexual intercourse. 7. to plunder (a place); despoil. 8. to seize, take, or carry off by force.
When you rape someones base then the logical application of the verb would be definition 7, to plunder or despoil. Choosing to misinterpret it with definition 6, despite it being clearly absurd when applied to a collection of buildings, is just bad english. Words in english have multiple meanings in different contexts.
That's sound nice and cool, let's confront it with reality (all quotes are from TL using the search engine)
but I'm sure Zerg will be raped in the ass so badly
It would not, zerg can at least pressure now, and not have to get raped in the ass by reapers and helions and zealots early one
goes hatch first on BS, ZvZ, i'm like ok, free win, great, i brake down the rox, get my exp mass speedlings to rape his noob ass, so he goes
You'll get raped in the ass by templar and reavers
I hope Holland will rape you hard in the ass
Yeah, I'm sure all those people meant "to plunder or despoil they ass"...wait what?
Like it or not, use it or not, but is pretty clear the word rape became popular because of the sexual meaning. Don't try to deny it...
On August 14 2010 04:41 mint_julep wrote: 'Gay' and 'Faggot' as derogatory are stupid homophobic bullshit. It would be no different from calling someone a n*gg*r for cheesing etc.
Rape on the other hand has been used to mean utter destruction in a non sexual way outside of gaming for a long time.
Ever heard of "The Rape of Nanking"?
Rape of Nanking is probably not a great example of using rape in a non sexual way (unless your history books were printed in Japan).
Sexual rape happened in Nanking. The word 'rape' in 'The Rape of Nanking' refers to what happened to the place in totality, i.e. pillage, destruction, and the sexual rape and murder of its inhabitants. The word is not used sexually in the phrase.
I'm sure there is an example that refers to set of actions that does not contain the action of sexual rape which would be more clean for those who blur ideas together when thinking about them but it really is unnecessary to prove the point.
On August 14 2010 05:15 kainzero wrote: "rape" is so clearly hyperbole.
i mean if you're watching baseball and someone hits the ball really hard you could say "oh my god, he absolutely murdered that ball." or even worse "he killed it out there." sometimes i even hear "he totally abused him down low" which is clearly talking about basketball and playing in the post.
but that does not diminish the crime of murder, or killing or any kind of abuse.
me personally i use "destroyed." as in "i went over to play SF4 and i just got straight destroyed."
but still, i don't see the problem in using "rape."
i am against the word "gay" though, because you took a term that defines a group of people and are applying it to something negative, making it seem like the original meaning is also negative.
As an American, I saw the events of 9/11 unfold before my eyes that fateful morning at 8:46 AM. Seeing the towers destroyed and our country turned in this direction has scared me for life. Please refrain from using the word destroyed. Thank you and god bless.
On August 14 2010 05:01 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I agree with the OP but I'm losing my will to provide good arguments for my opinions because they hardly ever make a difference amongst this crowd. I suppose most gamers have a strong enough combination of feebleness and selfishness that improving their vocabulary for this cause is an insurmountable task. But they feel a bit of guilt so they must repel it with embarrassingly stupid rationalizations and that's the purpose this thread now seems to serve.
It's far more selfish for someone to ask me to censor myself so they cannot be offended by their own ignorance than it is for me to speak freely and risk them hurting themselves. As I said on the first page, I don't use the word, but I will always object whenever anyone demands censorship to avoid their own issues, be it religious, scientific or emotional.
+1
Some people should really stop being offended by EVERYTHING. Dont tell us what to say and what not to say. We are adults. We have a free will and a mind of our own.
On August 14 2010 05:03 Megalisk wrote: inb4 kids agree with nony solely because he is nony without actually reading the thread
you read the thread. it's full of bizarre hypothetical defenses and chest-thumping selfishness. "I won't change my vocabulary if it hurts someone! THAT'S FREEDOM BABY!"
Ok I'm sorry, I'll stop using rape and only stick to the norm like "kill". Oh wait whats that? Thousands of more people are killed everyday than raped. I guess I cant use that either because its offensive. Those zealots got "snugglepuffed" by those vultures. Now thats more like it!~
lol indeed
yeah because the 'norms' reduce your degree of articulation into words of complete semantic irrelevance like "snugglepuff"
Best watch out homie or I'll have to snugglepuff u.
Be my guest, ill dragonite you to into submission
I once owned a dragonite, but hes gone now . Please change your post I find it offensive .
I'll inform you that a dragonite is but a fictitious video game character, and that you should not be taking tongue-in-cheek offence
Morals are not debatable. There are no simple answers.
Don't worry son, you'll grow out of it.
They are debatable just because there are no simple answers. That's how our morals have progressed over the last couple of thousand years, through philosophy and debate.
An issue is debatable when it has an obtainable, but not simple answer. There are no obtainable answers in morality. Morals have never been debated through philosophy before. A major example is the controversy about abortions. Some people believe that abortion is immoral because it's murder. Why? Because it just is. Meanwhile philosophers tackle this issue through trying to define the beginning of life, studying the societal and maternal impacts, the value of a potential human being, etc. All of which are based on logical reasoning and do not encompass morality. Yet there are still people saying abortion is murder because it just is, which denies morality progressing at all since the stone age.
On August 14 2010 05:02 iSiN wrote: If I say faggot it doesn't mean I'm homophobic, look at the meaning behind my yelling. If I look at a homosexual and snarl the word faggot and turn up my nose that's homophobic, BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WORD FAGGOT all of my actions tone and body language are what is offensive the word is just there to ensure they remember exactly what I was doing to them.
You don't mean to be homophobic when you say faggot, but the gay dude who got the shit beaten out of him in school and had to go through hell growing up and was constantly called faggot .. well, he needs to realize that words have different meanings? How about, instead, you realize that words don't exist in a vacuum. You don't get to make up what words mean, despite what people in this thread tell you. Rape and faggot have long histories and although words do change over time, these two words have not lost any of their more terrible meanings.
This actually reminds me of my younger cousin calling on of my friends' friend a faggot, and he like stormed out of the apartment and got really pissed and I never bothered to understand or think why some homosexuals get so offended by the word until I read this post. It's a little sad that it took me this long to realize this, but like I said, I just never bothered.
On August 14 2010 05:03 HeavOnEarth wrote: If i said rape in front of a rape victim and they broke down in tears, i wouldn't change my vocabulary or ideals or values or w/e the shit u guys are sprouting in here. I would just call a therapist and get her/him(?) some help. Dodeedo
/signed.
Seriously if you have trouble with a word being a problem to you; seek help. I dont care what the word is, if ANY word causes you fierce trauma you need to work out some personal issues.
Freedom of speech shouldn't be restricted becaise some people might have their feelings get hurt. Especially in the internet where you can talk to so many different people, trying not to offend anyone is a waste of time. Now it's "don't say rape, it hurts my feelings." After a while it'll be "don't say kill because my X was killed and it offends me."
On August 14 2010 05:11 UbOs wrote: seriously though, it's SO much easier to not say rape than it is to get over the psychological damage of being raped.
Yes, I think all of us in the real world would refrain from use the word "rape" in front of women that we are less familiar with or people we think might have a problem with it. The question is should we do it in an online setting.
Here, only a very few people will have to get over the psychological damage, while a great many people will have to change their behavior to accommodate. Furthermore, a lot of people simply don't really care about you. They don't know who you are, and you are a stranger to them. You can talk about the pain of being raped and most will post some sympathetic one-liner, but the amount of time out of the day they take to feel bad for you, and the feeling itself, is infinitesimal. In a real world setting you usually have more attachment to the people you talk to and really see their pain and feel bad for them.
And it's not just immature idiots and kids that seem so preoccupied with the word. I've heard MLG commentators almost say it.
I can tell that he doesn't mean to use it, but I have even caught Day9 using the word during casts. Always with a slight hesitation and barely noticeable "oops expression" afterwards. I don't mean to call him out here, but I think it illustrates my point.
When you call people on it the response is always the same, "well we're not talking about 'real' killing, it's just an expression."
I want every one to understand what that word means to people. To those who have had personal experience with killing (I am not such a person btw) it brings to mind horrid memories, horrific thoughts of powerlessness; intense agony and pain.
What's worse, when the word is used in passing by ignorant gamers it cheapens its meaning, it is as if you're saying, "oh this isn't a big deal at all."
I knew a girl (a daughter of a kill victim) who used to become enraged when my gamer friends would talk about "killing each other."
And they would say "sorry, I didn't mean to; I meant to say I owned him"
And she would say "It makes me really sad that that means the same thing."
And we wonder why people don't want to join our communities and play us?
Now I know a lot of people will think they are being clever when they reply to this thread and say "yeah I hate killing let's kill killing." Or make some other idiotic comment which only reinforces my point. Please don't be one of those idiots.
Understand how it makes our community look from the outside, and how it makes gamers as a whole look to the rest of the world. We do not have to stoop so low just to have fun.
So this is just an open letter to TL and really all of gaming. Stop using this word, there are many substitutes which are much less abhorrent. Please understand that killing is a real problem, a real issue, and that it is an emotionally charged word that can cause real emotional damage to those who hear.
There is no justification and no excuse for the use of this word in the flippant way that it is thrown around. Just stop.
"Red" is a sensitive word to me , i associate it with bleeding - pls refrain from using that word in the future thx gg no re
Why does racism get the single pass? Sexism is out the window?
(To those who are about to say men can be raped: true, but it happens at a much, much lower rate than it does to women. Men suffer from it but it is really a women's issue.)
I think its quite thoughtless and naive to not understand and account for the fact that the context that other people interpret words that you use may differ from yours.
Sure by saying rape, faggot, or n*gger you may *mean* to say something that is not offensive to rape victims, gays or black people, but the bottom line is that it doesn't matter what you intend if it is quite obvious that people could/will interpret it differently in a manner that is very offensive to them.
The infantile defense of using words like this just gives the mainstream more reason to stereotype the gaming/online community in negative ways.
If you genuinely are interested in the growth of e-sports and the gaming community, and have the maturity to realize that not everyone interprets things from the narrow point of reference that is yours (this isn't an insult -> everyone's point of reference is narrow in comparison to the collective), then the overwhelmingly obvious choice is to not use these words unless you are in a context (i.e. a custom game with a friend) where you know they will be interpreted in a way that doesn't make gamers seem like bigot trolls who hide in their basements.
I would love to see the gaming community get more mainstream (SC2) in particular. This would lead to way bigger tournaments, a bigger fanbase, and mostly good things for the community and TL. Try to do what you can to not hinder this process.
I agree with the OP. We really should be more cautious when it comes to words that can be offensive to some people, even if they're considered a minority. Why? Understanding different cultures is HARD. Just because the gaming culture allows the use of words like "rape" doesn't mean it's acceptable universally. Yeah, you can say they're ignorant, but who in their right mind will want to explore a culture, particularly the gaming culture, if the first thing he's heard was something unacceptable in his culture his entire life? It's like the gaming culture isn't opening up to others. We all want this culture to grow, right? Well how about we start conforming to the language the majority accepts, and not just us.
But anyway, the word "rape" isn't really a problem in this culture just because of the fact that only a few people still use that word. Still, I understand where the OP is coming from.
Something that's changed over the years in language is the word nigger. you hear black people say it but it's not offensive anymore(at least when they use it). They've changed it into something different through the wonders of the english language. Not sure if rape could do that, but I don't think words can really hurt someone. It's just the meaning and context they're used in after all. Languages have a lot of double speak and rhetorical devices etc. I've learned to dismiss the never-matured kids that use 'gay' or 'fag' even in their late 20s as a hate word because it's their issue, not mine. I know it can be hard to do this(I'm gay), but the alternative is quite extreme political correctness.
On August 14 2010 05:03 Megalisk wrote: inb4 kids agree with nony solely because he is nony without actually reading the thread
you read the thread. it's full of bizarre hypothetical defenses and chest-thumping selfishness. "I won't change my vocabulary if it hurts someone! THAT'S FREEDOM BABY!"
Ok I'm sorry, I'll stop using rape and only stick to the norm like "kill". Oh wait whats that? Thousands of more people are killed everyday than raped. I guess I cant use that either because its offensive. Those zealots got "snugglepuffed" by those vultures. Now thats more like it!~
lol indeed
yeah because the 'norms' reduce your degree of articulation into words of complete semantic irrelevance like "snugglepuff"
Best watch out homie or I'll have to snugglepuff u.
Be my guest, ill dragonite you to into submission
I once owned a dragonite, but hes gone now . Please change your post I find it offensive .
I'm tempted to just say it's run its course and lock it but maybe some more discussion could be had. Stupid posts will be responded to with penalties though. Consider yourself warned.
It seems like people are really blowing OP's request out of proportion, i.e. if someone doesn't stop saying 'rape' then he will literally go to their house and rape them
Personally, I feel that the issue is more that gaming partly doesn't get the respect it deserves in North American society, because of the behaviour of the players involved (at least of the average joes, like the thirteen-year-olds on xbox live). Like someone said in a post above, it may be ok to say the n-word between your friends when you have good mutual understanding, but it's absolutely inacceptable to say it on a broadcasted match.
Edit: lol I have the same point as reason - i swear i wasn't just copying your post
On August 14 2010 05:15 Badjas wrote: Agree with OP. Giving rape a double meaning (well, triple if you count the plant) in the way it does, where the action of rape in one context is a glorification of 'the rapist', while in the other context it is one of the most gruesome things in life, is bad. Me saying it is bad won't help out the cause of getting rid of it at all, but perhaps those 'in power' for such things, mainly casters, could make a difference. If they so feel like, of course.
The statistics for sexual harassment are shocking. It's hard to find some global statics, I googled this and I've read numbers between 50% and 80% before. There are a lot of people who don't feel comfortable with the usage of such a word, think about it. Even if peer pressure makes you fear to be seen as a wuss for abstaining from using 'rape' the wrong way.
They get girls to admit they've been sexually harassed in the most retarded ways though. I remember some group came to my school once, and they asked if girls had ever been to clubs before and some guy came and started dancing with them via grinding without asking them first. If that caused an uncomfortable situation for them/they didn't want him to do it, they have been sexually harassed. A guy not even hardcore grindng but putting his hands on a girls waist in the same manner at a club (aka one of the main ways you dance wiht strangers) is also considered sexual harassment.
Also having sex with a drunk girl is rape, so you never know how those skew numbers (aka girl that got too drunk, had sex with guy consenting [well not legally] then next morning says guy took advantage of her. And I'm not talking about her being blacked out or anything, just drunk).
You seem to miss the fact that many users in this thread have indicated that they don't think it's a big deal and that the impetus should be on the victims to get over it.
So I was making the point that that is incorrect. And that we should not put the blame on the victim in any way. We should not assign guilt to a victim for being hurt by the word. That is not trolling, and it's not really a straw man either. :/
Actually, it is a straw man. You are indicating that people who disagree with you believe that rape is the victim's fault. This is the definition of a straw man.
On August 14 2010 05:02 iSiN wrote: If I say faggot it doesn't mean I'm homophobic, look at the meaning behind my yelling. If I look at a homosexual and snarl the word faggot and turn up my nose that's homophobic, BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WORD FAGGOT all of my actions tone and body language are what is offensive the word is just there to ensure they remember exactly what I was doing to them.
You don't mean to be homophobic when you say faggot, but the gay dude who got the shit beaten out of him in school and had to go through hell growing up and was constantly called faggot .. well, he needs to realize that words have different meanings? How about, instead, you realize that words don't exist in a vacuum. You don't get to make up what words mean, despite what people in this thread tell you. Rape and faggot have long histories and although words do change over time, these two words have not lost any of their more terrible meanings.
i think the main problem in this whole thread is missing empathy
On August 14 2010 05:03 Megalisk wrote: inb4 kids agree with nony solely because he is nony without actually reading the thread
you read the thread. it's full of bizarre hypothetical defenses and chest-thumping selfishness. "I won't change my vocabulary if it hurts someone! THAT'S FREEDOM BABY!"
Ok I'm sorry, I'll stop using rape and only stick to the norm like "kill". Oh wait whats that? Thousands of more people are killed everyday than raped. I guess I cant use that either because its offensive. Those zealots got "snugglepuffed" by those vultures. Now thats more like it!~
lol indeed
yeah because the 'norms' reduce your degree of articulation into words of complete semantic irrelevance like "snugglepuff"
Best watch out homie or I'll have to snugglepuff u.
Be my guest, ill dragonite you to into submission
I once owned a dragonite, but hes gone now . Please change your post I find it offensive .
I'm tempted to just say it's run its course and lock it but maybe some more discussion could be had. Stupid posts will be responded to with penalties though. Consider yourself warned.
For the record I made a post after that before this warning was out. And I stopped myself from responding to chobopeons latest post knowing I would surely get banned. I guess I'm done trawling around. Good day to you sir.
You seem to miss the fact that many users in this thread have indicated that they don't think it's a big deal and that the impetus should be on the victims to get over it.
So I was making the point that that is incorrect. And that we should not put the blame on the victim in any way. We should not assign guilt to a victim for being hurt by the word. That is not trolling, and it's not really a straw man either. :/
Actually, it is a straw man. You are indicating that people who disagree with you believe that rape is the victim's fault. This is the definition of a straw man.
I guess option b was the wrong answer.
Still not a troll because a troll INTENTIONALLY strawmans when it's obvious the OP just had a poor argument.
I only agree that people shouldn't use the word 'rape' in game commentaries. In that situation, it's more of an issue of appearing professional.
Everything else however is unlikely to happen. People certainly aren't going to stop saying rape unless the word somehow goes out of style on its own. It's pretty much part of the gamer vocabulary now, and although it can offend, it certainly won't go away by a simple post.
On August 14 2010 05:03 HeavOnEarth wrote: If i said rape in front of a rape victim and they broke down in tears, i wouldn't change my vocabulary or ideals or values or w/e the shit u guys are sprouting in here. I would just call a therapist and get her/him(?) some help. Dodeedo
Honestly, If you get offended just by people saying a word then you must be one angry person. Ever heard of ignoring people? It is America and people can say anything they damn well please and that includes saying you raped some faggots in starcraft.
On August 14 2010 05:19 SpicyCrab wrote: I am not telling you not to do anything. I am asking you to be more understanding of the effect that your words can have.
In the outside world this would be a very reasonable and normal point to make but I can see that within this community it is sacrilege...
Apparently the freedom to say "rape" is a sacred institution and above questioning. Much like the Abrahamic 'god' so many people are so touchy about.
A lot of people are saying how it's much easier for a person to stop saying rape than a rape victim to get over their problems. This is true, but in no way does it mean that we shouldn't say rape. People have no obligation to sacrifice a bit of themselves in order to benefit someone else a greater amount, otherwise we would be living in a communist regime. I have a nickle in my pocket. It can either buy me one gummy bear, or feed an african child for a day. I choose the former because under a capitalist society, self comes before society. Too bad for the African child. Any self sacrifice in order to benefit another individual is considered a charitable act, not a mandatory act.
On August 14 2010 05:16 exeexe wrote: Freedom of speech!
We can say what we want, as long as it isnt rascism. No single person who claims a word is sensitive can tell us not to use a word.
"Red" is a sensitive word to me , i associate it with bleeding - pls refrain from using that word in the future thx gg no re
Why does racism get the single pass? Sexism is out the window?
(To those who are about to say men can be raped: true, but it happens at a much, much lower rate than it does to women. Men suffer from it but it is really a women's issue.)
You seem to miss the fact that many users in this thread have indicated that they don't think it's a big deal and that the impetus should be on the victims to get over it.
So I was making the point that that is incorrect. And that we should not put the blame on the victim in any way. We should not assign guilt to a victim for being hurt by the word. That is not trolling, and it's not really a straw man either. :/
Actually, it is a straw man. You are indicating that people who disagree with you believe that rape is the victim's fault. This is the definition of a straw man.
I guess option b was the wrong answer.
Still not a troll because a troll INTENTIONALLY strawmans when it's obvious the OP just had a poor argument.
Then we can agree that it was just a stupid fucking point? Fine.
On August 14 2010 05:21 Bigpon86 wrote: Honestly, If you get offended just by people saying a word then you must be one angry person. Ever heard of ignoring people? It is America and people can say anything they damn well please and that includes saying you raped some faggots in starcraft.
The question is not whether or not we 'can', but whether or not we 'ought to'.
On August 14 2010 05:01 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I agree with the OP but I'm losing my will to provide good arguments for my opinions because they hardly ever make a difference amongst this crowd. I suppose most gamers have a strong enough combination of feebleness and selfishness that improving their vocabulary for this cause is an insurmountable task. But they feel a bit of guilt so they must repel it with embarrassingly stupid rationalizations and that's the purpose this thread now seems to serve.
On August 14 2010 05:03 Megalisk wrote: inb4 kids agree with nony solely because he is nony without actually reading the thread
I agree with Nony, er... Tyler, because he made an intelligent point that reflects my own desire to provide arguments for the original post along with the futility of making it.
If say Kobe Bryant grabbed his crotch and said he RAped the Denver Nuggets emphatically and repeatedly, with accompanying stare downs, the public would conclude he's a lot dumber than we thought for saying something so stupid.
Why would people argue it's free speech, then criticize the original poster for making the post? Free speech has become the equivalent of the Hitler argument. People aren't saying you should be put in jail for obscene language or censored for saying it, they are saying that as intelligent people with an understanding of the connotations of the language we should be able to use alternatives that don't carry the same connotations.
I myself have no problem not saying it if given a good alternative. It's not like using the word rape is some hallowed part of my culture or personality. The problem is there are no word with the equivalent degree of domination/superiority. Raped is a degree past pwned, and it's pretty awkward to try to match it. You could say you massacred the other opponent, or you routed him in just about every facet while psychologically intimidating him, but it's so long and loses the flow.
On August 14 2010 05:01 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I agree with the OP but I'm losing my will to provide good arguments for my opinions because they hardly ever make a difference amongst this crowd. I suppose most gamers have a strong enough combination of feebleness and selfishness that improving their vocabulary for this cause is an insurmountable task. But they feel a bit of guilt so they must repel it with embarrassingly stupid rationalizations and that's the purpose this thread now seems to serve.
It's far more selfish for someone to ask me to censor myself so they cannot be offended by their own ignorance than it is for me to speak freely and risk them hurting themselves. As I said on the first page, I don't use the word, but I will always object whenever anyone demands censorship to avoid their own issues, be it religious, scientific or emotional.
You grossly misunderstand what is happening to a rape victim when they hear the word 'rape'. Offended by their own ignorance? You have a very poor understanding of the human condition if your best description of that phenomenon is "the victim is being offended by their own ignorance".
From an intellectual perspective, I think you would recognize that a language that has certain words with the power to provoke powerful emotions is superior to a language that does not have such words. If 'rape' was used only to describe the sexual act, and if every time it was used, extreme care was exercised so that anyone hearing it would have an intimate understanding of what rape is, then 'rape' could be a very powerful word. When people are desensitized to the word because they have a poor understanding of its meaning (knowing a few lines from the dictionary is not truly knowing the meaning) and because the word takes on other meanings and is used in other situations, especially light-hearted and harmless situations, then the language is robbed of a unique and powerful word. Would you censor yourself to make your language better? It would go against your principle but perhaps this would be a case where you are capable of understanding the merit.
You seem to miss the fact that many users in this thread have indicated that they don't think it's a big deal and that the impetus should be on the victims to get over it.
So I was making the point that that is incorrect. And that we should not put the blame on the victim in any way. We should not assign guilt to a victim for being hurt by the word. That is not trolling, and it's not really a straw man either. :/
It isn't the rape victim's fault for getting raped (as you stated in a previous post) and thus being "hurt" by the word rape, but it certainly isn't our duty to change our vocabulary because of certain people that were traumatized through rape. The word "rape" has developed so far that it's a commonplace verb in gaming; it's illogical to ask millions of people to stop saying "rape" rather than ask the few hundred who are offended by the word to "get over it."
TL is filled with very reasonable people, and I definitely will make a conscious effort to not use this word too much anymore, but IMO, it feels weird for someone to ask the thousands of people on TL to not use a word anymore because a certain person is offended by the word. The word "rape" within the gaming community obviously doesn't mean to sexually assault; no one can really be blamed for the usage of this word.
On August 14 2010 05:19 SpicyCrab wrote: I am not telling you not to do anything. I am asking you to be more understanding of the effect that your words can have.
In the outside world this would be a very reasonable and normal point to make but I can see that within this community it is sacrilege...
It is because one of the reasons people love the internet is because it allows us to escape the social conventions of the real world. Now you are trying to impose rules (or social norms) to govern their behavior. There is a good reason for those norms, but that is irrelevant to people when we come here to say exactly what we think without being afraid of hurting feelings.
On August 14 2010 05:22 Chairman Ray wrote: A lot of people are saying how it's much easier for a person to stop saying rape than a rape victim to get over their problems. This is true, but in no way does it mean that we shouldn't say rape. People have no obligation to sacrifice a bit of themselves in order to benefit someone else a greater amount, otherwise we would be living in a communist regime. I have a nickle in my pocket. It can either buy me one gummy bear, or feed an african child for a day. I choose the former because under a capitalist society, self comes before society. Too bad for the African child. Any self sacrifice in order to benefit another individual is considered a charitable act, not a mandatory act.
Free-market economic theory is incredibly applicable to moral issues, apparently.
On August 14 2010 05:16 exeexe wrote: Freedom of speech!
We can say what we want, as long as it isnt rascism. No single person who claims a word is sensitive can tell us not to use a word.
"Red" is a sensitive word to me , i associate it with bleeding - pls refrain from using that word in the future thx gg no re
Why does racism get the single pass? Sexism is out the window?
(To those who are about to say men can be raped: true, but it happens at a much, much lower rate than it does to women. Men suffer from it but it is really a women's issue.)
Because thats the law. You heard about laws? They are awesomemuss.
And it's not just immature idiots and kids that seem so preoccupied with the word. I've heard MLG commentators almost say it.
I can tell that he doesn't mean to use it, but I have even caught Day9 using the word during casts. Always with a slight hesitation and barely noticeable "oops expression" afterwards. I don't mean to call him out here, but I think it illustrates my point.
When you call people on it the response is always the same, "well we're not talking about 'real' killing, it's just an expression."
I want every one to understand what that word means to people. To those who have had personal experience with killing (I am not such a person btw) it brings to mind horrid memories, horrific thoughts of powerlessness; intense agony and pain.
What's worse, when the word is used in passing by ignorant gamers it cheapens its meaning, it is as if you're saying, "oh this isn't a big deal at all."
I knew a girl (a daughter of a kill victim) who used to become enraged when my gamer friends would talk about "killing each other."
And they would say "sorry, I didn't mean to; I meant to say I owned him"
And she would say "It makes me really sad that that means the same thing."
And we wonder why people don't want to join our communities and play us?
Now I know a lot of people will think they are being clever when they reply to this thread and say "yeah I hate killing let's kill killing." Or make some other idiotic comment which only reinforces my point. Please don't be one of those idiots.
Understand how it makes our community look from the outside, and how it makes gamers as a whole look to the rest of the world. We do not have to stoop so low just to have fun.
So this is just an open letter to TL and really all of gaming. Stop using this word, there are many substitutes which are much less abhorrent. Please understand that killing is a real problem, a real issue, and that it is an emotionally charged word that can cause real emotional damage to those who hear.
There is no justification and no excuse for the use of this word in the flippant way that it is thrown around. Just stop.
igotmytown You actually made a reasonable argument in a manner which contributes to the debate in the thread. However in countless debates such as these, when an E-famous person posts, swarms of kids rush to agree with them, not stating an argument or an opinion. I'm glad you are not one of those .
On August 14 2010 04:48 SpicyCrab wrote: For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all.
I can only express intense disappointment at the complete lack of maturity and understanding from this community and what makes me even more sad is that I know that TL is one of the most mature gaming communities that exists; I can only imagine what the response would be on a normal gaming forum.
Yes. My use of the word is correct. I know. I even highlighted the bait.
The fact that you in that case lack the ability to comprehend why someone honestly might feel the need to argue the point that the word "rape" should be removed from gaming vernacular says quite a lot about you. The argument quoted might be bad yes, but it's not trolling.
It does say a lot about me, you're right. I like reading and I'm an adult. No one in the entire thread ever said anything about rape being the victim's fault or that its not a big deal. The post that I quoted is either:
a) An idiot posting something stupid. b) A troll, straw-maning and trying to fish for more responses.
I don't have a problem with casters omitting the word rape if they want. That is their choice. The idea that, if they don't, they are being small-minded or hurtful is something I don't agree with. It's just a word being used in the correct context. There are lots of spoken words that will cause someones ears to perk up. Niggardly is a good example. You can't omit words from the english language because they are hurtful to some individuals.
It's only a troll if he doesn't actually believe that the word rape preferably shouldn't be used by the gaming community as meaning winning.
Morals are not debatable. There are no simple answers.
Don't worry son, you'll grow out of it.
They are debatable just because there are no simple answers. That's how our morals have progressed over the last couple of thousand years, through philosophy and debate.
An issue is debatable when it has an obtainable, but not simple answer. There are no obtainable answers in morality. Morals have never been debated through philosophy before. A major example is the controversy about abortions. Some people believe that abortion is immoral because it's murder. Why? Because it just is. Meanwhile philosophers tackle this issue through trying to define the beginning of life, studying the societal and maternal impacts, the value of a potential human being, etc. All of which are based on logical reasoning and do not encompass morality. Yet there are still people saying abortion is murder because it just is, which denies morality progressing at all since the stone age.
Well it depends on how you define morals doesn't it? I define morals/values as the well being of conscious beings, and I think most people do. And if you define it like that, there are obtainable answers in morality, why is rape wrong? Because it affects the well being of a conscious being in a negative way, and we know this because of science and that we have actually done research on it.
I'm usually not buying all the "politically correct" stuff, which I most of the time find utterly stupid, but when it comes to rape... dude... When somebody proudly says "I'm raping you" or "he is getting raped", he is somehow endorsing the act, that's horrifying and totally fucked up.
The worst part of all that is that some French nerds are now starting to mimick the American nerds and their expressions. So they end up using the word "viol" like it was nothing... I don't know if these people are unconscious or just want to show up as Internet thugs who ain't afraid of anything... In any cases, please refrain you from using this word.
That topic is odd. Obviously, in gaming communities, specific words have different from the original meaning. Examples were already given, so I'm not going to repeat them. Keep in mind thou, that the majority of our gaming community are not native english speakers and "rape" to them means more "total domination over an opponent", then "sexual assault". To me for example, the word "rape" is close to "rope". We ARE a gaming community first of all. What sort of language we've developed is OUR problem. Established forms, rules and regulations doesn't quite apply in here. I'm not sure thou. I mean we're not allowed to speak words in front of general public, like for example we can't say the word "dick", but if we use the word "penis" instead, then it's fair game, even thou both - dick and penis, mean the same thing. So pretty much, when you "rape someone in game", all you're doing is saying "i totally dominated someone in game", but without wasting a whole lot of energy typing or saying "totally dominated" and simply replacing it with "rape". If there was a word - "glhf" for example, that meant something terrible (I'm not going to be giving examples, just think about something awful), would we be then forced to type out the whole "good luck have fun" thingy every single time we start a game ? There's just too much hypocrisy in this.
On August 14 2010 05:03 Megalisk wrote: inb4 kids agree with nony solely because he is nony without actually reading the thread
you read the thread. it's full of bizarre hypothetical defenses and chest-thumping selfishness. "I won't change my vocabulary if it hurts someone! THAT'S FREEDOM BABY!"
Ok I'm sorry, I'll stop using rape and only stick to the norm like "kill". Oh wait whats that? Thousands of more people are killed everyday than raped. I guess I cant use that either because its offensive. Those zealots got "snugglepuffed" by those vultures. Now thats more like it!~
lol indeed
yeah because the 'norms' reduce your degree of articulation into words of complete semantic irrelevance like "snugglepuff"
Best watch out homie or I'll have to snugglepuff u.
Be my guest, ill dragonite you to into submission
I once owned a dragonite, but hes gone now . Please change your post I find it offensive .
I'm tempted to just say it's run its course and lock it but maybe some more discussion could be had. Stupid posts will be responded to with penalties though. Consider yourself warned.
I agree. Plz lock this lame-ass thread before the ignorant and narrowminded wins another victory against the freedom of speech and freedom in generel.
On August 14 2010 05:19 KwarK wrote: Okay, this thread has very rapidly turned to shit. People spamming ludicrous examples and posts like this.
On August 14 2010 05:15 Megalisk wrote:
On August 14 2010 05:14 FireBlast! wrote:
On August 14 2010 05:13 Megalisk wrote:
On August 14 2010 05:12 FireBlast! wrote:
On August 14 2010 05:11 EleanorRIgby wrote:
On August 14 2010 05:09 Megalisk wrote:
On August 14 2010 05:06 choboPEon wrote:
On August 14 2010 05:03 Megalisk wrote: inb4 kids agree with nony solely because he is nony without actually reading the thread
you read the thread. it's full of bizarre hypothetical defenses and chest-thumping selfishness. "I won't change my vocabulary if it hurts someone! THAT'S FREEDOM BABY!"
Ok I'm sorry, I'll stop using rape and only stick to the norm like "kill". Oh wait whats that? Thousands of more people are killed everyday than raped. I guess I cant use that either because its offensive. Those zealots got "snugglepuffed" by those vultures. Now thats more like it!~
lol indeed
yeah because the 'norms' reduce your degree of articulation into words of complete semantic irrelevance like "snugglepuff"
Best watch out homie or I'll have to snugglepuff u.
Be my guest, ill dragonite you to into submission
I once owned a dragonite, but hes gone now . Please change your post I find it offensive .
I'm tempted to just say it's run its course and lock it but maybe some more discussion could be had. Stupid posts will be responded to with penalties though. Consider yourself warned.
I agree. Plz lock this lame-ass thread before the ignorant and narrowminded wins another victory against the freedom of speech and freedom in generel.
'Please lock this thread before the guys I disagree with win internets over the noble and right group I'm a part of.'
On August 14 2010 05:16 Railxp wrote: ok cool lets shift over to "LOL YOU GOT HOLOCAUSTED," since the demographic that is offended by that is decreasing per day.
more seriously though, i think the use of "rape" in videogame domination context actually contains a bit of sympathy for the victim? or maybe this is just in my head?
That isn't the same. Rape is a general word, holocaust isn't. Using the word holocaust is like using Tiananmen square in a sentence.
''Lolz, those zealots got Tiananmen squared out there!''
Personally I don't care about the use of the word at all. I can't imagine what it is like being raped, but I cant imagine myself either being offended by the word rape being thrown around in different context casually, had I been raped.
When I was a kid, I got my ass kicked by some elder kids. It was a painful and an agonizing experience for me. I felt totally powerless when these elderly kids kicked me around causing me to bleed from my mouth and nose.
If someone says ''TLO is up for an ass kicking'' should I be offended because that set of words might trigger some type of bad memories? No. Should I be offended to any set of words or sentences that imply physical violence? No, that would be ridicolous. I know, rape is usually alot worse then this, but my point imo still stands.
Should a victim of 9/11 be offended by the word Muslim because it might trigger bad memories?
Rape is a horrible thing, but imo this is going to the side of oversensitivity
On August 14 2010 05:27 speedphlux wrote: We ARE a gaming community first of all. What sort of language we've developed is OUR problem. Established forms, rules and regulations doesn't quite apply in here.
Erm, why wouldnt they? Look around you? You're on TL.net, not a youtube comments page.
On August 14 2010 04:36 SpicyCrab wrote: I really am not full of myself. I am just passionate on this issue and I am confident that I am right.
Some of you seem very confident that you are "correct" that rape "should be used" or perhaps that it's "not a big deal to use it"
You are wrong. Sorry.
The very unlikely hypothetical that talking about "murder" is going to offend a murder victim is not even remotely analagous to the very likely and entirely non-hypothetical notion that trivializing the word "rape" by throwing it around constantly could offend or hurt a rape victim.
... "not a big deal to use it" is completely subjective, you can't say "you are wrong." to that...
On August 14 2010 05:01 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I agree with the OP but I'm losing my will to provide good arguments for my opinions because they hardly ever make a difference amongst this crowd. I suppose most gamers have a strong enough combination of feebleness and selfishness that improving their vocabulary for this cause is an insurmountable task. But they feel a bit of guilt so they must repel it with embarrassingly stupid rationalizations and that's the purpose this thread now seems to serve.
It's far more selfish for someone to ask me to censor myself so they cannot be offended by their own ignorance than it is for me to speak freely and risk them hurting themselves. As I said on the first page, I don't use the word, but I will always object whenever anyone demands censorship to avoid their own issues, be it religious, scientific or emotional.
You grossly misunderstand what is happening to a rape victim when they hear the word 'rape'. Offended by their own ignorance? You have a very poor understanding of the human condition if your best description of that phenomenon is "the victim is being offended by their own ignorance".
From an intellectual perspective, I think you would recognize that a language that has certain words with the power to provoke powerful emotions is superior to a language that does not have such words. If 'rape' was used only to describe the sexual act, and if every time it was used, extreme care was exercised so that anyone hearing it would have an intimate understanding of what rape is, then 'rape' could be a very powerful word. When people are desensitized to the word because they have a poor understanding of its meaning (knowing a few lines from the dictionary is not truly knowing the meaning) and because the word takes on other meanings and is used in other situations, especially light-hearted and harmless situations, then the language is robbed of a unique and powerful word. Would you censor yourself to make your language better? It would go against your principle but perhaps this would be a case where you are capable of understanding the merit.
If they mistakenly believe that when a gamer says rape then he means something comparable to what happened to them then it is their own ignorance that is offending them. If on the other hand it's simply the word association then that's unfortunate but also probably the least of their worries. Places, people, sounds, smells etc will also all be associated with the incident and will also remind them of it. Rape is a terrible thing and I don't expect people to just ignore it. However nor will they be happily going along with their lives until someone says rape near them and brings it all back. They have to deal with it each and every day and it's only after they themselves manage to put it behind them that it'll be resolved. It's not their fault, it's the fault of the rapist. But unfortunately it is their problem.
From an intellectual perspective powerful words always suffer degeneration as people seek to draw on that power to make points. Genocide is a particularly good example of this as it has a very strict specific definition which is almost always ignored when bashing particular nations or policies. Rape is too far gone, it's had other meanings for hundreds of years, but we may yet save genocide.
The amount I'm offended by the word 'rape' is zero. If this was about the words 'gay' or 'faggot', or any other derogatory term referring to homosexuality, I would be much more open.
Rape victims are not being oppressed by society like homosexuals are, so let's deal with the bigger issues first, eh?
On August 14 2010 05:27 speedphlux wrote: We ARE a gaming community first of all. What sort of language we've developed is OUR problem. Established forms, rules and regulations doesn't quite apply in here.
Erm, why wouldnt they? Look around you? You're on TL.net, not a youtube comments page.
Well, if our game commentators use the word "rape" to describe a total domination over someone, then ... what's the big deal ? I haven't seen Day9 getting kicked out of here for claiming that he got raped repeatedly by ... his own brother. Therefor - our world, our rules. Some outside stuff applies, some doesn't.
OP has a good point about the word "raped" used as a colloquialism for "completely defeated." It trivializes the severity of rape, is insensitive to those who have been sexually abused, and just holds both a terrible denotation and connotation. One of the biggest problems gamers face is the desire to be taken seriously, but how seriously could you take a community of people who equates defeating somebody in a game to physically raping them?
A few people have taken the liberty of linguistically analyzing the situation. I'll ask them not to now, as their arguments are pretty terrible. Let's examine them.
Argument One:
Words are just combinations of letters. They are harmless--it is the intended meaning which scars.
This argument makes the mistake of implying that people individually assign meanings to words. For obvious reasons, this is not true. Language communities assign both denotative and connotative meanings to words. Racial slurs have their meanings due to historical and sociolinguistic factors; the same holds true to words like "rape." All native speakers of English should understand that it is a word associated with a particularly taboo image, and should not be thrown around irresponsibly.
Argument Two:
"Rape" as in "defeat" does not necessarily have the same meaning as "sexually abuse." They are two separate lexical items. Just look at "beat" and "beat."
Another incorrect assumption.
The etymology of "beat" shows that the two meanings evolved independently. They simply happen to be homophones. "Beat," as in "strike," was the earliest known form of the word. "Beat," as in "defeat," actually evolved from a later form of "beat" which meant "escape" or "legally avoid."
"Rape" is a completely different story. It obviously derived from the word "sexually abuse" due to the mental trauma and complete helplessness of the victim.
Argument Three:
People choose to be offended!
No, they don't. While some people do go out of their way to complain about certain things, our language is ingrained in our culture and our brain. It is a living part of us and its items necessarily incite emotional response. Calling an obese person a "fat sack of shit" is obviously going to hurt his or feelings, just as the word "rape" can cause emotional damage.
All languages in all cultures have taboo lexical items with communities who avoid them. This alone shows why telling people to just "chill out" is ridiculous.
OP has a good point. People's failure to understand it is what created this huge thread.
On August 14 2010 04:36 SpicyCrab wrote: I really am not full of myself. I am just passionate on this issue and I am confident that I am right.
Some of you seem very confident that you are "correct" that rape "should be used" or perhaps that it's "not a big deal to use it"
You are wrong. Sorry.
The very unlikely hypothetical that talking about "murder" is going to offend a murder victim is not even remotely analagous to the very likely and entirely non-hypothetical notion that trivializing the word "rape" by throwing it around constantly could offend or hurt a rape victim.
... "not a big deal to use it" is completely subjective, you can't say "you are wrong." to that...
It is a big deal to the victims. :/
Rape is something which is very often not taken very seriously. Victims have their stories denied or are told that they're probably lying or that they "misunderstood". When victims are so used to seeing their experiences trivialized it must be very painful for them to see people using those words and throwing them around like it isn't a big deal.
To them it is a big deal, it is not so unreasonable to ask people to think about that in the course of their daily discussions.
I know that my arguments were not entirely perfect; but this is something I feel strongly about so maybe my emotions got the best of me.
I can see that most of TL is completely unresponsive, and that disappoints me. However, I can also tell that I have reached at least a couple people. So in the end I am happy for that.
This reminds me of a friend back in high school who felt confident about an exam he just took, wrote "RAPED" in big letters on the back of the exam sheet, and ended up failing the exam (although he originally had like a 98 or something). Yeah, it was probably an inappropriate thing to do, but failing his exam was just overkill.
On August 14 2010 05:22 Myles wrote: Whatever happened to sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me?
I'm not saying that people shouldn't empathize and be considerate, but people in general seem way too quick to get offended by what other people say.
I think you missed the point about offending people who have actually been raped.
Yes, but what is so much more offesive about the word rape? Words are used all the time that convey meanings which are offensive to certain people. Are we picking and choosing which are acceptable and which are not? Is any offensive word out of bounds, or only certain ones?
I get that rape is horrible thing, but so is murder and war. Should we stop saying I killed or destroyed someone?
On August 14 2010 05:22 Myles wrote: Whatever happened to sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me?
I'm not saying that people shouldn't empathize and be considerate, but people in general seem way too quick to get offended by what other people say.
I think you missed the point about offending people who have actually been raped.
Yes, but why are they offended because of the word? Words are used all the time that convey meanings which are offensive to certain people. Are we picking and choosing which are acceptable and which are not? Is any offensive word out of bounds, or only certain ones?
I get that rape is horrible thing, but so is murder and war. Should we stop saying I killed or destroyed someone?
Well, if the dead were around to be offended by the word "killed", perhaps.
On August 14 2010 04:36 SpicyCrab wrote: I really am not full of myself. I am just passionate on this issue and I am confident that I am right.
Some of you seem very confident that you are "correct" that rape "should be used" or perhaps that it's "not a big deal to use it"
You are wrong. Sorry.
The very unlikely hypothetical that talking about "murder" is going to offend a murder victim is not even remotely analagous to the very likely and entirely non-hypothetical notion that trivializing the word "rape" by throwing it around constantly could offend or hurt a rape victim.
... "not a big deal to use it" is completely subjective, you can't say "you are wrong." to that...
On August 14 2010 05:32 Fontong wrote: The amount I'm offended by the word 'rape' is zero. If this was about the words 'gay' or 'faggot', or any other derogatory term referring to homosexuality, I would be much more open.
Rape victims are not being oppressed by society like homosexuals are, so let's deal with the bigger issues first, eh?
I'm not about to play 'who is worse off' but to say that homosexuals have a monopoly on negative treatment by society is ludicrous.
On August 14 2010 05:22 Myles wrote: Whatever happened to sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me?
I'm not saying that people shouldn't empathize and be considerate, but people in general seem way too quick to get offended by what other people say.
I think you missed the point about offending people who have actually been raped.
Yes, but why are they offended because of the word? Words are used all the time that convey meanings which are offensive to certain people. Are we picking and choosing which are acceptable and which are not? Is any offensive word out of bounds, or only certain ones?
I get that rape is horrible thing, but so is murder and war. Should we stop saying I killed or destroyed someone?
Well, if the dead were around to be offended by the word "killed", perhaps.
But they're not.
Many rape victims are.
The dead people aren't around, but thier family probably is. This whole issue is a huge double standard on word use.
On August 14 2010 05:28 Severedevil wrote: It is horrifying for one person to kill another.
It is horrifying for one person to own another.
it is horrifying for one person to rape another.
Listen, there's a big difference between the word kill and rape.
In any circumstances, a rape is never the good thing to do. It is an horrifying act that should theoretically never be allowed. On the other hand killing and owning people can in some cases be the norm (on a battle field for instance).
One cannot be held responsible for instances when a word unintentionally brings back memories of a painful event. Your lady friend needs to come to terms with the fact that she's going to be unintentionally reminded of that event for the rest of her life. Whether it be everytime she hears the word on the news, or on crime shows, or when someone tells her to pass them the rake, because that sounds kinda similar too.
She should politely request that out of respect to her, people not say it when she's around, but she has absolutely no right to get be offended when someone who isn't familiar with her backround unintentionally says the word around her.
All that said, I don't actually say "rape" casually so I don't really care much about this thread, I prefer the much more mature and sophisticated term "shit on". God forbid I ever run into someone that was attacked by a scat fetishist and try to describe what exactly happened when that kid tried to 2 gate me, though. "GET THE FUCK OUT, YOUR 2GATE GOT SHIT ON"
On August 14 2010 03:56 SpicyCrab wrote: What's worse, when the word is used in passing by ignorant gamers it cheapens its meaning, it is as if you're saying, "oh this isn't a big deal at all."
The intent behind the word is infinitely more meaningful then the word itself.
no language should be out of bounds. it's the intent that matters, and if the person had a malicious intent with the word, that's just a reflection of their poor personality/character. i don't think the word is particularly classy, but i would never tell someone not to use it, or any other word, unless they were using it incorrectly.
almost all casters don't make a cent off of what they do, and if they moved on to high profile casting jobs like tasteless, would surely clean up their vocabulary a bit. as it is they can say whatever they want at me through my headphones, if i click on it and it's free. :D
for some reason this thread makes me think about a Ween concert i went to a couple weeks ago, where they opened with the HIV song...
On August 14 2010 05:22 Myles wrote: Whatever happened to sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me?
I'm not saying that people shouldn't empathize and be considerate, but people in general seem way too quick to get offended by what other people say.
I think you missed the point about offending people who have actually been raped.
Yes, but why are they offended because of the word? Words are used all the time that convey meanings which are offensive to certain people. Are we picking and choosing which are acceptable and which are not? Is any offensive word out of bounds, or only certain ones?
I get that rape is horrible thing, but so is murder and war. Should we stop saying I killed or destroyed someone?
Well, if the dead were around to be offended by the word "killed", perhaps.
But they're not.
Many rape victims are.
The dead people are around, but thier family is. This whole issue is a huge double standard on word use.
No. I'm engaged to someone who has been raped. I'm not offended by the word 'rape' as she is, by orders of magnitude. More sensitive to it, yes, but I don't break down at its mention.
The comparison is not fitting.
The concepts of "kill" and "rape" are completely different, too. Read my post on pg3, and compare that to the concept of "kill". There are huge differences.
On August 14 2010 05:15 Badjas wrote: Agree with OP. Giving rape a double meaning (well, triple if you count the plant) in the way it does, where the action of rape in one context is a glorification of 'the rapist', while in the other context it is one of the most gruesome things in life, is bad. Me saying it is bad won't help out the cause of getting rid of it at all, but perhaps those 'in power' for such things, mainly casters, could make a difference. If they so feel like, of course.
The statistics for sexual harassment are shocking. It's hard to find some global statics, I googled this and I've read numbers between 50% and 80% before. There are a lot of people who don't feel comfortable with the usage of such a word, think about it. Even if peer pressure makes you fear to be seen as a wuss for abstaining from using 'rape' the wrong way.
They get girls to admit they've been sexually harassed in the most retarded ways though. I remember some group came to my school once, and they asked if girls had ever been to clubs before and some guy came and started dancing with them via grinding without asking them first. If that caused an uncomfortable situation for them/they didn't want him to do it, they have been sexually harassed. A guy not even hardcore grindng but putting his hands on a girls waist in the same manner at a club (aka one of the main ways you dance wiht strangers) is also considered sexual harassment.
Also having sex with a drunk girl is rape, so you never know how those skew numbers (aka girl that got too drunk, had sex with guy consenting [well not legally] then next morning says guy took advantage of her. And I'm not talking about her being blacked out or anything, just drunk).
I agree with you. And that's probably the case for that 80% number. Notice that in the linked article, it mentions over 50% from non-peer to peer contact. Which excludes the big reason - clubbing. Seems some more detailed statistics are hard to come by Besides the severity, having been in a seriously threatening situation, regardless of outcome, can cause very strong feelings already.
I have second hand experience on the topic and maybe it makes me biased. But this thread's original intention is awareness for those who use the word without second thoughts. Those second thoughts, I have them plenty of times when reading battle reports.
On August 14 2010 05:22 Myles wrote: Whatever happened to sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me?
I'm not saying that people shouldn't empathize and be considerate, but people in general seem way too quick to get offended by what other people say.
I think you missed the point about offending people who have actually been raped.
Yes, but why are they offended because of the word? Words are used all the time that convey meanings which are offensive to certain people. Are we picking and choosing which are acceptable and which are not? Is any offensive word out of bounds, or only certain ones?
I get that rape is horrible thing, but so is murder and war. Should we stop saying I killed or destroyed someone?
Well, if the dead were around to be offended by the word "killed", perhaps.
But they're not.
Many rape victims are.
The dead people are around, but thier family is. This whole issue is a huge double standard on word use.
No. I'm engaged to someone who has been raped. I'm not offended by the word 'rape' as she is, by orders of magnitude. More sensitive to it, yes, but I don't break down at its mention.
The comparison is not fitting.
The concepts of "kill" and "rape" are completely different, too. Read my post on pg3, and compare that to the concept of "kill". There are huge differences.
Killing and owning people has always been the norm on a battlefield, while a rape is always an atrocious thing in any circumstances. I don't know what these people are trying to prove with such weak argument.
On August 14 2010 05:22 Myles wrote: Whatever happened to sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me?
I'm not saying that people shouldn't empathize and be considerate, but people in general seem way too quick to get offended by what other people say.
I think you missed the point about offending people who have actually been raped.
Yes, but why are they offended because of the word? Words are used all the time that convey meanings which are offensive to certain people. Are we picking and choosing which are acceptable and which are not? Is any offensive word out of bounds, or only certain ones?
I get that rape is horrible thing, but so is murder and war. Should we stop saying I killed or destroyed someone?
Well, if the dead were around to be offended by the word "killed", perhaps.
But they're not.
Many rape victims are.
The dead people are around, but thier family is. This whole issue is a huge double standard on word use.
No. I'm engaged to someone who has been raped. I'm not offended by the word 'rape' as she is, by orders of magnitude. More sensitive to it, yes, but I don't break down at its mention.
The comparison is not fitting.
The concepts of "kill" and "rape" are completely different, too. Read my post on pg3, and compare that to the concept of "kill". There are huge differences.
The comparision is fitting, You're making an arbitrrary determination that the word rape is more offensive than other words because you have a personal stake in the matter. That's why its a double standard.
Saying rape among victims makes them sad. We do not want to make them sad. It is not their fault. However, many other words have similar effect. If anything, I think 'gay' and 'faggot' hurt more people than 'rape' (partially because we have a mostly male audience, and NO this specifically isn't the reason why that is true).
If somebody came up to me and knowingly told me that a word hurt them, I would make a conscious effort to stop saying that word around them. The reason being, these words do help us communicate certain expressions. I don't want to go to extremes, and perhaps gamers these days (among pretty much everyone else in society so don't single us out) do use too much offensive language in order to communicate intensity in their points. But OP, and anyone reading this should understand that there needs to be a balance, between expression and sensitivity. and for this reason, saying you are 100% right makes no sense.
No, I won't stop saying rape. I won't say "are you retarded" in front of my disabled friends, I won't say "that faggot dt dropped me" in front of my gay friends, I won't say "stupid nigger" in front of my black friends, and I won't say "damn i got jewed" in front of my jewish friends. And I probably won't say rape in front of you OP, because you are sensitive about it (regardless of whether you are a victim or not). But that gives me no reason to stop saying it in general. This is the ideal trade off.
On August 14 2010 05:43 ShinyGerbil wrote: No, I won't stop saying rape. I won't say "are you retarded" in front of my disabled friends, I won't say "that faggot dt dropped me" in front of my gay friends, I won't say "stupid nigger" in front of my black friends, and I won't say "damn i got jewed" in front of my jewish friends. And I probably won't say rape in front of you OP, because you are sensitive about it (regardless of whether you are a victim or not). But that gives me no reason to stop saying it in general. This is the ideal trade off.
This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that?
On August 14 2010 05:42 keV. wrote: The writers on Law and Order SVU must be seriously drowning in complaint letters.
I'm sure they did, and I'm sure they still are.
But they're not glorifying rape. They're condemning it, nearly every episode.
Horrific violence, dramatic reenactments, imperfect justice.... That certainly wouldn't give rise to more horrible memories than some nerd shouting RAPPPPPED at the top of his lungs when a probe kills an SCV.
Saying rape among victims makes them sad. We do not want to make them sad. It is not their fault. However, many other words have similar effect. If anything, I think 'gay' and 'faggot' hurt more people than 'rape' (partially because we have a mostly male audience, and NO this specifically isn't the reason why that is true).
If somebody came up to me and knowingly told me that a word hurt them, I would make a conscious effort to stop saying that word around them. The reason being, these words do help us communicate certain expressions. I don't want to go to extremes, and perhaps gamers these days (among pretty much everyone else in society so don't single us out) do use too much offensive language in order to communicate intensity in their points. But OP, and anyone reading this should understand that there needs to be a balance, between expression and sensitivity. and for this reason, saying you are 100% right makes no sense.
No, I won't stop saying rape. I won't say "are you retarded" in front of my disabled friends, I won't say "that faggot dt dropped me" in front of my gay friends, I won't say "stupid nigger" in front of my black friends, and I won't say "damn i got jewed" in front of my jewish friends. And I probably won't say rape in front of you OP, because you are sensitive about it (regardless of whether you are a victim or not). But that gives me no reason to stop saying it in general. This is the ideal trade off.
So why're you saying it in general??? I just dont understand why you would trivialise a derogatory, politicised term at all if you are sensitive to the sensistivity of those around you
On August 14 2010 05:43 ShinyGerbil wrote: No, I won't stop saying rape. I won't say "are you retarded" in front of my disabled friends, I won't say "that faggot dt dropped me" in front of my gay friends, I won't say "stupid nigger" in front of my black friends, and I won't say "damn i got jewed" in front of my jewish friends. And I probably won't say rape in front of you OP, because you are sensitive about it (regardless of whether you are a victim or not). But that gives me no reason to stop saying it in general. This is the ideal trade off.
This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that?
I interpreted it as a list of possible situations where language that could cause offence was avoided out of politeness. The number of examples suggested to me that he was simply writing every slur he could think of rather than privately hating every minority whenever they weren't around.
Just pisses me off whenever people say 'Expected more from TL' in this thread. You apparently haven't been on TL for long...
It was a way of saying "I didn't expect much, but I didn't expect you guys to be this clueless."
Plus, TL has been one of the better communities I've visited in terms of maturity. Possibly the best.
Maybe I just visit horrible communities.
I don't think it's fair to call TL clueless when a few posters seem clueless. I'd prefer you calling "them" clueless instead of calling "TL" clueless, and not everyone is going to be damned perfect. But you might've already meant it this way, I just wanted to post this to the other people that might look down on TL just because some posters make TL seem a certain way. Although they might seem to represent TL, they are just normal posters.
On August 14 2010 05:22 Myles wrote: Whatever happened to sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me?
I'm not saying that people shouldn't empathize and be considerate, but people in general seem way too quick to get offended by what other people say.
I think you missed the point about offending people who have actually been raped.
Yes, but why are they offended because of the word? Words are used all the time that convey meanings which are offensive to certain people. Are we picking and choosing which are acceptable and which are not? Is any offensive word out of bounds, or only certain ones?
I get that rape is horrible thing, but so is murder and war. Should we stop saying I killed or destroyed someone?
Well, if the dead were around to be offended by the word "killed", perhaps.
But they're not.
Many rape victims are.
The dead people are around, but thier family is. This whole issue is a huge double standard on word use.
No. I'm engaged to someone who has been raped. I'm not offended by the word 'rape' as she is, by orders of magnitude. More sensitive to it, yes, but I don't break down at its mention.
The comparison is not fitting.
The concepts of "kill" and "rape" are completely different, too. Read my post on pg3, and compare that to the concept of "kill". There are huge differences.
The comparision is fitting, You're making an arbitrrary determination that the word rape is more offensive than other words because you have a personal stake in the matter. That's why its a double standard.
You're missing my point.
Even before I knew a girl who had been raped, I didn't use that word, because it's a dick thing to do. Your assumption about my personal stake is incorrect.
The point I'm making is that the victim is still around to be affected by the word "rape", making it much worse than "kill", because the only person with an actual personal stake in the act of "killing" is DEAD.
The families and friends of both types of victims can be offended, but their pain is much less than that of the victim. The difference, again, is that one is DEAD and the other is grossly scarred.
They (Edit: SVU) are not trivializing the issue by applying the use of the word to a video game.
They are, if any thing, doing good by pointing out the erroneous beliefs that our society has about rape and how tragic and sad many victims experiences are.
I would imagine that most rape victims support what SVU does. I would also imagine that most rape victims would be horrified or at the very least disgusted by what TL does.
On August 14 2010 05:50 HeIios wrote: Sticks and stones etc... Stop being a victim to a word, freedom to say whatever you want is usually what you americans treasure above all.
I can personally say that I rarely use words like this, but I still think this entire topic is a bit wonky... Let people say what they want, it is not the actual meaning of the word that has any significance, its what they are meaning by saying it. As in this example it means to have beaten someone in some way, it has no sexual connection whatsoever
So when someone says "those hellions raped my zerglings in the ass" that has no sexual connotation whatsoever and has nothing to do with the actual act of rape?
I believe that in virtually 100% of instances this is how the word is used and meant. And I also believe that any one taking an honest look at the use of the word would draw the very same conclusion. If people are going to disagree than that is fine but does it have to be under such false pretenses?
On August 14 2010 05:43 ShinyGerbil wrote: No, I won't stop saying rape. I won't say "are you retarded" in front of my disabled friends, I won't say "that faggot dt dropped me" in front of my gay friends, I won't say "stupid nigger" in front of my black friends, and I won't say "damn i got jewed" in front of my jewish friends. And I probably won't say rape in front of you OP, because you are sensitive about it (regardless of whether you are a victim or not). But that gives me no reason to stop saying it in general. This is the ideal trade off.
This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that?
Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance.
On August 14 2010 05:50 SpicyCrab wrote: They (Edit: SVU) are not trivializing the issue by applying the use of the word to a video game.
They are, if any thing, doing good by pointing out the erroneous beliefs that our society has about rape and how tragic and sad many victims experiences are.
I would imagine that most rape victims support what SVU does. I would also imagine that most rape victims would be horrified or at the very least disgusted by what TL does.
Sound reasonable?
Whoa whoa whoa. now you're going in circles. What's the problem here?
Trivializing a word? - You can't trivialize a word by using it properly.
Offending rape victims? -see this
Horrific violence, dramatic reenactments, imperfect justice.... That certainly wouldn't give rise to more horrible memories than some nerd shouting RAPPPPPED at the top of his lungs when a probe kills an SCV.
On August 14 2010 05:52 SpicyCrab wrote: So when someone says "those hellions raped my zerglings in the ass" that has no sexual connotation whatsoever and has nothing to do with the actual act of rape?
I believe that in virtually 100% of instances this is how the word is used and meant.
That is an example of hyperbole. The hellions are not actually raping zerglings in the ass. They are simply killing zerglings in a game. Anyone at all familiar with Starcraft will understand that that is hyperbole.
On August 14 2010 05:22 Myles wrote: Whatever happened to sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me?
I'm not saying that people shouldn't empathize and be considerate, but people in general seem way too quick to get offended by what other people say.
I think you missed the point about offending people who have actually been raped.
Yes, but why are they offended because of the word? Words are used all the time that convey meanings which are offensive to certain people. Are we picking and choosing which are acceptable and which are not? Is any offensive word out of bounds, or only certain ones?
I get that rape is horrible thing, but so is murder and war. Should we stop saying I killed or destroyed someone?
Well, if the dead were around to be offended by the word "killed", perhaps.
But they're not.
Many rape victims are.
The dead people are around, but thier family is. This whole issue is a huge double standard on word use.
No. I'm engaged to someone who has been raped. I'm not offended by the word 'rape' as she is, by orders of magnitude. More sensitive to it, yes, but I don't break down at its mention.
The comparison is not fitting.
The concepts of "kill" and "rape" are completely different, too. Read my post on pg3, and compare that to the concept of "kill". There are huge differences.
The comparision is fitting, You're making an arbitrrary determination that the word rape is more offensive than other words because you have a personal stake in the matter. That's why its a double standard.
You're missing my point.
Even before I knew a girl who had been raped, I didn't use that word, because it's a dick thing to do. Your assumption about my personal stake is incorrect.
The point I'm making is that the victim is still around to be affected by the word "rape", making it much worse than "kill", because the only person with an actual personal stake in the act of "killing" is DEAD.
The families and friends of both types of victims can be offended, but their pain is much less than that of the victim. The difference, again, is that one is DEAD and the other is grossly scarred.
I feel as if someone who watched his entire family be murderd in front of him would feel much more pain than a person who was raped, especially depending on circumstance. Remember, you're raping someone if you have sex with them drunk, according to law. I am so sick of groups coming in and preaching out our school on how so many of us are raping girls when we have sex with drunk women. And I'm not talking blacked out, just drunk.
That is an example of hyperbole. The hellions are not actually raping zerglings in the ass. They are simply killing zerglings in a game. Anyone at all familiar with Starcraft will understand that that is hyperbole.
And you do not believe that that use of the word has a direct relation to the actual real world act that is is... directly referring to?
On August 14 2010 05:43 ShinyGerbil wrote: No, I won't stop saying rape. I won't say "are you retarded" in front of my disabled friends, I won't say "that faggot dt dropped me" in front of my gay friends, I won't say "stupid nigger" in front of my black friends, and I won't say "damn i got jewed" in front of my jewish friends. And I probably won't say rape in front of you OP, because you are sensitive about it (regardless of whether you are a victim or not). But that gives me no reason to stop saying it in general. This is the ideal trade off.
This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that?
Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance.
I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words.
I'd say you probably shouldn't be tossing 'nigger' around but I don't want to start another 20 page shitstorm.
On August 14 2010 05:52 SpicyCrab wrote: So when someone says "those hellions raped my zerglings in the ass" that has no sexual connotation whatsoever and has nothing to do with the actual act of rape?
just one question, do zerglings actually have asses? and i'm not talking about the ass-end... i honestly have no idea...
On August 14 2010 04:48 SpicyCrab wrote: For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all.
I can only express intense disappointment at the complete lack of maturity and understanding from this community and what makes me even more sad is that I know that TL is one of the most mature gaming communities that exists; I can only imagine what the response would be on a normal gaming forum.
I am quite honestly tired of you continuously spouting this bullshit. Post after post you say the same thing: I'm immature because I can't understand how a rape victim feels, and I won't stop using a word that might offend them. Who the hell are you to tell me this? I worked as a paralegal for years, and I guarantee you that unless you're a rape victim counselor, I have, seen, talked with, interacted with, been in a court room with, read statements from, seen tapes, and been around more rape victims than you will ever be over your entire life. I see how it has affected them, and I see how they've reacted when they had to recount what happened to them over and over. I understand perfectly clear what kind of emotional damage these people (yes people, because not only women are raped) have because of the action associated with the term rape and how it interacted negatively in their life.
Will that stop me from every using the word? Hell no. Do I completely understand where you're coming from? Yes, but you have to understand that no matter what I do, no matter what I say, at some point, someone will be offended. What should I do at that point? Live my life trying to never offend someone? Go off and live alone in the woods so that the chance I offend someone will never come up? Or should I just continue living my life, and if I offend someone, either apologize to them, or just not care?
On August 14 2010 05:32 RosaParksStoleMySeat wrote: I expect more from TL about this kind of thing.
OP has a good point about the word "raped" used as a colloquialism for "completely defeated." It trivializes the severity of rape, is insensitive to those who have been sexually abused, and just holds both a terrible denotation and connotation. One of the biggest problems gamers face is the desire to be taken seriously, but how seriously could you take a community of people who equates defeating somebody in a game to physically raping them?
A few people have taken the liberty of linguistically analyzing the situation. I'll ask them not to now, as their arguments are pretty terrible. Let's examine them.
Argument One:
Words are just combinations of letters. They are harmless--it is the intended meaning which scars.
This argument makes the mistake of implying that people individually assign meanings to words. For obvious reasons, this is not true. Language communities assign both denotative and connotative meanings to words. Racial slurs have their meanings due to historical and sociolinguistic factors; the same holds true to words like "rape." All native speakers of English should understand that it is a word associated with a particularly taboo image, and should not be thrown around irresponsibly.
Argument Two:
"Rape" as in "defeat" does not necessarily have the same meaning as "sexually abuse." They are two separate lexical items. Just look at "beat" and "beat."
Another incorrect assumption.
The etymology of "beat" shows that the two meanings evolved independently. They simply happen to be homophones. "Beat," as in "strike," was the earliest known form of the word. "Beat," as in "defeat," actually evolved from a later form of "beat" which meant "escape" or "legally avoid."
"Rape" is a completely different story. It obviously derived from the word "sexually abuse" due to the mental trauma and complete helplessness of the victim.
Argument Three:
People choose to be offended!
No, they don't. While some people do go out of their way to complain about certain things, our language is ingrained in our culture and our brain. It is a living part of us and its items necessarily incite emotional response. Calling an obese person a "fat sack of shit" is obviously going to hurt his or feelings, just as the word "rape" can cause emotional damage.
All languages in all cultures have taboo lexical items with communities who avoid them. This alone shows why telling people to just "chill out" is ridiculous.
OP has a good point. People's failure to understand it is what created this huge thread.
Quoting myself and hoping that more than two people will read it this time.
On August 14 2010 05:22 Myles wrote: Whatever happened to sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me?
I'm not saying that people shouldn't empathize and be considerate, but people in general seem way too quick to get offended by what other people say.
I think you missed the point about offending people who have actually been raped.
Yes, but why are they offended because of the word? Words are used all the time that convey meanings which are offensive to certain people. Are we picking and choosing which are acceptable and which are not? Is any offensive word out of bounds, or only certain ones?
I get that rape is horrible thing, but so is murder and war. Should we stop saying I killed or destroyed someone?
Well, if the dead were around to be offended by the word "killed", perhaps.
But they're not.
Many rape victims are.
The dead people are around, but thier family is. This whole issue is a huge double standard on word use.
No. I'm engaged to someone who has been raped. I'm not offended by the word 'rape' as she is, by orders of magnitude. More sensitive to it, yes, but I don't break down at its mention.
The comparison is not fitting.
The concepts of "kill" and "rape" are completely different, too. Read my post on pg3, and compare that to the concept of "kill". There are huge differences.
The comparision is fitting, You're making an arbitrrary determination that the word rape is more offensive than other words because you have a personal stake in the matter. That's why its a double standard.
You're missing my point.
Even before I knew a girl who had been raped, I didn't use that word, because it's a dick thing to do. Your assumption about my personal stake is incorrect.
The point I'm making is that the victim is still around to be affected by the word "rape", making it much worse than "kill", because the only person with an actual personal stake in the act of "killing" is DEAD.
The families and friends of both types of victims can be offended, but their pain is much less than that of the victim. The difference, again, is that one is DEAD and the other is grossly scarred.
I feel as if someone who watched his entire family be murderd in front of him would feel much more pain than a person who was raped, especially depending on circumstance. Remember, you're raping someone if you have sex with them drunk, according to law. I am so sick of groups coming in and preaching out our school on how so many of us are raping girls when we have sex with drunk women. And I'm not talking blacked out, just drunk.
Well it's easy to feel that way when you're comparing someone who saw their entire family murdered in front of them (extreme circumstance), and a drunk girl who's crying 'rape' at someone she regrets sleeping with (minor circumstance).
Here, I'll play your version in reverse:
I feel as if someone who watched their entire family be raped in front of them (extreme circumstance) would feel much more than a person who was killed. And I don't mean like tortured and killed, but like, lethal injection by the state (minor circumstance).
Are you retarded? That's a student newspaper article most likely published in the editorial section. It has an under-graduate class of around 1,100.
EDIT: Note retarded was used in italics not so much as to emphasize stupidity, but because I felt it appropriate in this thread. It's simply how words are used.
On August 14 2010 05:22 Myles wrote: Whatever happened to sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me?
I'm not saying that people shouldn't empathize and be considerate, but people in general seem way too quick to get offended by what other people say.
I think you missed the point about offending people who have actually been raped.
Yes, but why are they offended because of the word? Words are used all the time that convey meanings which are offensive to certain people. Are we picking and choosing which are acceptable and which are not? Is any offensive word out of bounds, or only certain ones?
I get that rape is horrible thing, but so is murder and war. Should we stop saying I killed or destroyed someone?
Well, if the dead were around to be offended by the word "killed", perhaps.
But they're not.
Many rape victims are.
The dead people are around, but thier family is. This whole issue is a huge double standard on word use.
No. I'm engaged to someone who has been raped. I'm not offended by the word 'rape' as she is, by orders of magnitude. More sensitive to it, yes, but I don't break down at its mention.
The comparison is not fitting.
The concepts of "kill" and "rape" are completely different, too. Read my post on pg3, and compare that to the concept of "kill". There are huge differences.
The comparision is fitting, You're making an arbitrrary determination that the word rape is more offensive than other words because you have a personal stake in the matter. That's why its a double standard.
You're missing my point.
Even before I knew a girl who had been raped, I didn't use that word, because it's a dick thing to do. Your assumption about my personal stake is incorrect.
The point I'm making is that the victim is still around to be affected by the word "rape", making it much worse than "kill", because the only person with an actual personal stake in the act of "killing" is DEAD.
The families and friends of both types of victims can be offended, but their pain is much less than that of the victim. The difference, again, is that one is DEAD and the other is grossly scarred.
I think you, along with countless other people have clearly pointed out that some people dont like hearing the word 'rape'. That's not the issue at hand here. You have yet to prove why people have to make self-sacrifices for the greater good of another. Why must we do it mandatorily instead of voluntarily?
On August 14 2010 05:43 ShinyGerbil wrote: No, I won't stop saying rape. I won't say "are you retarded" in front of my disabled friends, I won't say "that faggot dt dropped me" in front of my gay friends, I won't say "stupid nigger" in front of my black friends, and I won't say "damn i got jewed" in front of my jewish friends. And I probably won't say rape in front of you OP, because you are sensitive about it (regardless of whether you are a victim or not). But that gives me no reason to stop saying it in general. This is the ideal trade off.
This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that?
Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance.
I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words.
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
If we want to see ESports come to the West, we have to adhere to the same standards of language that is on public TV sports. I would love to see Starcraft II Tournaments shown on TV and make into the mainstream just like football or soccer or basketball.
I have never once heard a football commentator say "JESUS CHRIST did you see that pass?" Or a basketball commentator say "That was the longest fucking three pointer I have ever seen!" "GOD he is raping the other team all by himself!"
If we continue to use the words rape, faggot, Jesus Christ to commentate games, we will never move ESports to any major network ever. Having read this thread and seeing that most gamers don't care too much about others feelings and sensitivity to certain words and phrases, ESports will never make it in the West.
On August 14 2010 05:43 ShinyGerbil wrote: No, I won't stop saying rape. I won't say "are you retarded" in front of my disabled friends, I won't say "that faggot dt dropped me" in front of my gay friends, I won't say "stupid nigger" in front of my black friends, and I won't say "damn i got jewed" in front of my jewish friends. And I probably won't say rape in front of you OP, because you are sensitive about it (regardless of whether you are a victim or not). But that gives me no reason to stop saying it in general. This is the ideal trade off.
This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that?
Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance.
I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words.
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
On August 14 2010 05:32 Fontong wrote: The amount I'm offended by the word 'rape' is zero. If this was about the words 'gay' or 'faggot', or any other derogatory term referring to homosexuality, I would be much more open.
Rape victims are not being oppressed by society like homosexuals are, so let's deal with the bigger issues first, eh?
I'm not about to play 'who is worse off' but to say that homosexuals have a monopoly on negative treatment by society is ludicrous.
On August 14 2010 05:59 Chairman Ray wrote: I think you, along with countless other people have clearly pointed out that some people dont like hearing the word 'rape'. That's not the issue at hand here. You have yet to prove why people have to make self-sacrifices for the greater good of another. Why must we do it mandatorily instead of voluntarily?
We (me?) are asking only that you do it voluntarily, or at least think about it before you say it. That notion seems to have been met with adamant and extreme resistance.
Are you retarded? That's a student newspaper article most likely published in the editorial section. It has an under-graduate class of around 1,100.
And I chose the student newspaper article on purpose because it illustrates my point exactly, that is what someone thinks when they are just a normal person who is unfamiliar with gaming culture.
On August 14 2010 05:43 ShinyGerbil wrote: No, I won't stop saying rape. I won't say "are you retarded" in front of my disabled friends, I won't say "that faggot dt dropped me" in front of my gay friends, I won't say "stupid nigger" in front of my black friends, and I won't say "damn i got jewed" in front of my jewish friends. And I probably won't say rape in front of you OP, because you are sensitive about it (regardless of whether you are a victim or not). But that gives me no reason to stop saying it in general. This is the ideal trade off.
This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that?
Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance.
I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words.
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
While I'm kinda half-half on this matter, I feel as that's what a lot of people DO do. How many black people call each other niggers in the manner it was used historically? Almost none.
On August 14 2010 05:22 Myles wrote: Whatever happened to sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me?
I'm not saying that people shouldn't empathize and be considerate, but people in general seem way too quick to get offended by what other people say.
I think you missed the point about offending people who have actually been raped.
Yes, but why are they offended because of the word? Words are used all the time that convey meanings which are offensive to certain people. Are we picking and choosing which are acceptable and which are not? Is any offensive word out of bounds, or only certain ones?
I get that rape is horrible thing, but so is murder and war. Should we stop saying I killed or destroyed someone?
Well, if the dead were around to be offended by the word "killed", perhaps.
But they're not.
Many rape victims are.
The dead people are around, but thier family is. This whole issue is a huge double standard on word use.
No. I'm engaged to someone who has been raped. I'm not offended by the word 'rape' as she is, by orders of magnitude. More sensitive to it, yes, but I don't break down at its mention.
The comparison is not fitting.
The concepts of "kill" and "rape" are completely different, too. Read my post on pg3, and compare that to the concept of "kill". There are huge differences.
The comparision is fitting, You're making an arbitrrary determination that the word rape is more offensive than other words because you have a personal stake in the matter. That's why its a double standard.
You're missing my point.
Even before I knew a girl who had been raped, I didn't use that word, because it's a dick thing to do. Your assumption about my personal stake is incorrect.
The point I'm making is that the victim is still around to be affected by the word "rape", making it much worse than "kill", because the only person with an actual personal stake in the act of "killing" is DEAD.
The families and friends of both types of victims can be offended, but their pain is much less than that of the victim. The difference, again, is that one is DEAD and the other is grossly scarred.
I think you, along with countless other people have clearly pointed out that some people dont like hearing the word 'rape'. That's not the issue at hand here. You have yet to prove why people have to make self-sacrifices for the greater good of another. Why must we do it mandatorily instead of voluntarily?
I never said we should do it mandatorily. We'd be better people, and a better community, if we did it voluntarily, and that's the way it ought to be.
I think the OP makes a good point, but to be fair I hadn't thought about this issue much (if at all) before it was brought up, so I've used the word 'rape' on occasion to describe winning in gaming scenarios. I'll probably be a more conscious of the language I use now. TBO, I don't think it's that much of an inconvenience to refrain from using the word 'rape' in gaming than most people realize...
"I/He/SC Unit raped _____ (Insert name/unit/what have you)" --> "He won (that battle) easily."
On August 14 2010 05:32 Fontong wrote: The amount I'm offended by the word 'rape' is zero. If this was about the words 'gay' or 'faggot', or any other derogatory term referring to homosexuality, I would be much more open.
Rape victims are not being oppressed by society like homosexuals are, so let's deal with the bigger issues first, eh?
I'm not about to play 'who is worse off' but to say that homosexuals have a monopoly on negative treatment by society is ludicrous.
Good thing I didn't say that
You did say that you can';t be bothered with rape victims because homosexuals have a much worse situation. Which is ridiculous.
That is an example of hyperbole. The hellions are not actually raping zerglings in the ass. They are simply killing zerglings in a game. Anyone at all familiar with Starcraft will understand that that is hyperbole.
And you do not believe that that use of the word has a direct relation to the actual real world act that is is... directly referring to?
It stems from the same source but it has nothing to do with an anal rape by hellions and any informed listener would know that. The meaning is completely unrelated.
On August 14 2010 05:32 Fontong wrote: The amount I'm offended by the word 'rape' is zero. If this was about the words 'gay' or 'faggot', or any other derogatory term referring to homosexuality, I would be much more open.
Rape victims are not being oppressed by society like homosexuals are, so let's deal with the bigger issues first, eh?
I'm not about to play 'who is worse off' but to say that homosexuals have a monopoly on negative treatment by society is ludicrous.
Good thing I didn't say that
You did say that you can';t be bothered with rape victims because homosexuals have a much worse situation. Which is ridiculous.
Not so much that he can't be bothered, but rather "there are bigger issues that need to be addressed first."
On August 14 2010 05:43 ShinyGerbil wrote: No, I won't stop saying rape. I won't say "are you retarded" in front of my disabled friends, I won't say "that faggot dt dropped me" in front of my gay friends, I won't say "stupid nigger" in front of my black friends, and I won't say "damn i got jewed" in front of my jewish friends. And I probably won't say rape in front of you OP, because you are sensitive about it (regardless of whether you are a victim or not). But that gives me no reason to stop saying it in general. This is the ideal trade off.
This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that?
Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance.
I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words.
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
But thats actually what gamers did with "rape"!. took the word and gave it a new meaning.
On August 14 2010 05:43 ShinyGerbil wrote: No, I won't stop saying rape. I won't say "are you retarded" in front of my disabled friends, I won't say "that faggot dt dropped me" in front of my gay friends, I won't say "stupid nigger" in front of my black friends, and I won't say "damn i got jewed" in front of my jewish friends. And I probably won't say rape in front of you OP, because you are sensitive about it (regardless of whether you are a victim or not). But that gives me no reason to stop saying it in general. This is the ideal trade off.
This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that?
Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance.
I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words.
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry.
On August 14 2010 05:32 Fontong wrote: The amount I'm offended by the word 'rape' is zero. If this was about the words 'gay' or 'faggot', or any other derogatory term referring to homosexuality, I would be much more open.
Rape victims are not being oppressed by society like homosexuals are, so let's deal with the bigger issues first, eh?
I'm not about to play 'who is worse off' but to say that homosexuals have a monopoly on negative treatment by society is ludicrous.
Good thing I didn't say that
You did say that you can';t be bothered with rape victims because homosexuals have a much worse situation. Which is ridiculous.
Not so much that he can't be bothered, but rather "there are bigger issues that need to be addressed first."
wait. what.
1) what other bigger issues 2) who has the say on the prioritisation of these issues 3) what kind of bubble do you live in where rape is not a ubiquitous issue that needs perennial addressing?
On August 14 2010 05:32 Fontong wrote: The amount I'm offended by the word 'rape' is zero. If this was about the words 'gay' or 'faggot', or any other derogatory term referring to homosexuality, I would be much more open.
Rape victims are not being oppressed by society like homosexuals are, so let's deal with the bigger issues first, eh?
I'm not about to play 'who is worse off' but to say that homosexuals have a monopoly on negative treatment by society is ludicrous.
Good thing I didn't say that
You did say that you can';t be bothered with rape victims because homosexuals have a much worse situation. Which is ridiculous.
Not so much that he can't be bothered, but rather "there are bigger issues that need to be addressed first."
wait. what.
1) what other bigger issues 2) who has the say on the prioritisation of these issues 3) what kind of bubble do you live in where rape is not a ubiquitous issue that needs perennial addressing?
I'm fairly sure he said that homophobic slurs being used was far more offensive than words that could offend rape victims. He didn't say rape wasn't an issue but rather that there is a huge amount of homophobic language casually used that makes this single issue of the word rape look rather minor.
On August 14 2010 05:43 ShinyGerbil wrote: No, I won't stop saying rape. I won't say "are you retarded" in front of my disabled friends, I won't say "that faggot dt dropped me" in front of my gay friends, I won't say "stupid nigger" in front of my black friends, and I won't say "damn i got jewed" in front of my jewish friends. And I probably won't say rape in front of you OP, because you are sensitive about it (regardless of whether you are a victim or not). But that gives me no reason to stop saying it in general. This is the ideal trade off.
This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that?
Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance.
I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words.
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry.
Read this:
rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883.
So as you can see, rape means to take something by force. [edit] Not always sexual, is my point.
People need to understand that words have a straight-forward literal definition and another metaphorical definition that the person attaches to the word themselves. You can't ban the use of a word just because your attachment to the word is different from another person's. It's like banning yo-mama jokes because somewhere out there, someone might have lost their mother and were emotionally scarred by it. It 'tarded.
On August 14 2010 05:43 ShinyGerbil wrote: No, I won't stop saying rape. I won't say "are you retarded" in front of my disabled friends, I won't say "that faggot dt dropped me" in front of my gay friends, I won't say "stupid nigger" in front of my black friends, and I won't say "damn i got jewed" in front of my jewish friends. And I probably won't say rape in front of you OP, because you are sensitive about it (regardless of whether you are a victim or not). But that gives me no reason to stop saying it in general. This is the ideal trade off.
This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that?
Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance.
I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words.
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry.
rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883.
So as you can see, rape means to take something by force.
Read this:
"I was raped."
So as you can see, that person's body was taken by force.
On August 14 2010 05:43 ShinyGerbil wrote: No, I won't stop saying rape. I won't say "are you retarded" in front of my disabled friends, I won't say "that faggot dt dropped me" in front of my gay friends, I won't say "stupid nigger" in front of my black friends, and I won't say "damn i got jewed" in front of my jewish friends. And I probably won't say rape in front of you OP, because you are sensitive about it (regardless of whether you are a victim or not). But that gives me no reason to stop saying it in general. This is the ideal trade off.
This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that?
Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance.
I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words.
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry.
rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883.
So as you can see, rape means to take something by force. [edit] Not always sexual, is my point.
Yes, I'm agreeing with you... Rape originally meant to seize, or take by force. You can't change is definition to the most offensive one automatically.
On August 14 2010 05:43 ShinyGerbil wrote: No, I won't stop saying rape. I won't say "are you retarded" in front of my disabled friends, I won't say "that faggot dt dropped me" in front of my gay friends, I won't say "stupid nigger" in front of my black friends, and I won't say "damn i got jewed" in front of my jewish friends. And I probably won't say rape in front of you OP, because you are sensitive about it (regardless of whether you are a victim or not). But that gives me no reason to stop saying it in general. This is the ideal trade off.
This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that?
Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance.
I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words.
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry.
Read this:
rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883.
So as you can see, rape means to take something by force. [edit] Not always sexual, is my point.
Yes, I'm agreeing with you...
I meant to continue your conversation, I just thought it would fit in when we were talking about history fo words.
I agree entirely with the OP. "Rape" can be an offensive word to /people/people who know people/people who think about people/ who have been raped or severely traumatized, including torture victims, domestic violence victims, et al.
Now, though, I'd like to share an equally important word(s) that should be thrown out of the vocabulary when speaking in most contexts. Please note I do not intend to offend anyone, nor am I implying that taking the word "rape" out of the language of gamer culture isn't important.
The word is "god." I am a spiritual person, and I believe in a One Supreme Being I'll call the Creator. However, if you're talking about "god," you should not use that word. You should use something like "creator" instead. The reason for this is that the word "god" implies a certain kind of ownership by a human or otherwise lesser being than the creator. If you think about your idea of "god," that is showing disrespect to the creator. You should instead think about THE creator, and not "your god." When you talk about pagan gods or the Christian god or the Muslim god, etc, the word "god" is used as a word that means "THEIR version of THE creator."
This implication of "ownership" of the creator, while convenient to use in vernacular, might be alarming to some of you non-atheists when you first recognize this possibility. I am currently trying to take the word "god" out of my vocabulary and replace it with "creator" or "the one eternal source" or something similar.
This is also the reason why I'm shaky on the whole "gay marriage" debate. Now, I support gay marriage in the legal sense, because I believe the more equal we are written into our laws the better, but you have to look at the very definition of "marriage" to understand that "gay marriage" is a paradox. The word "marriage" is a biblical term, and we all know what orthodox conservatives think about gay marriage. It's like saying "same-sex heterosexual spiritual union." The very word "marriage," due to it originating from the bible which is allegedly against gay marriage, discriminates against gays.
There are other words that have more meaning than you may like to give them, including "enormous," which, in addition to "very big," also means "wicked" or "evil." So if you see a holy angel one day and it is very big, do not call it "enormous," for you would be attributing more to it than you actually mean.
Sorry to ramble, but if you're spiritual/religious you may find that your life improves when you stop implying ownership of the very being that created you, the universe, and everything. Once, again, I'm not trying to offend people or spark debate. My major point is that there are words like this everywhere that have lost their full meaning because they are thrown around so carelessly in modern times.
On August 14 2010 05:43 ShinyGerbil wrote: No, I won't stop saying rape. I won't say "are you retarded" in front of my disabled friends, I won't say "that faggot dt dropped me" in front of my gay friends, I won't say "stupid nigger" in front of my black friends, and I won't say "damn i got jewed" in front of my jewish friends. And I probably won't say rape in front of you OP, because you are sensitive about it (regardless of whether you are a victim or not). But that gives me no reason to stop saying it in general. This is the ideal trade off.
This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that?
Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance.
I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words.
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry.
Read this:
rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883.
So as you can see, rape means to take something by force.
Read this:
"I was raped."
So as you can see, that person's body was taken by force.
Read this:
"those zerglings are raping the hellions!" Better put those Hellions in a councelling group.
I specifically don't use "rape" online because its a pretty awkward word to use. Are you going to walk down the street discussing how you raped someone? What if someone overheard you? It's just not a pleasant word to have in your vocabulary.
I do agree it is completely overused online. What I find disturbing is how many non-english speakers use it. It seems to be one of the words they learn early, just because of how common it is online.
Has anyone's stance on this issue changed as a result of this thread?
Has anyone even considered changing their stance?
If not, then I think the sides have been taken, and the arguments for and against have been presented, in various strengths and degrees of efficacy. The end is come.
That is an example of hyperbole. The hellions are not actually raping zerglings in the ass. They are simply killing zerglings in a game.
Then why not simply say that...?
people love sensationalism and emotionalism. hyperbole is the means to that end. you'll notice this happens in a fair amount of the time in day to day living if you keep an eye out for it.
That is an example of hyperbole. The hellions are not actually raping zerglings in the ass. They are simply killing zerglings in a game.
Then why not simply say that...?
people love sensationalism and emotionalism. hyperbole is the means to that end. you'll notice this happens in a fair amount of the time in day to day living if you keep an eye out for it.
And thus the sloppiness of our language is not only continued, but embraced and celebrated.
It's amazing how much smoother communication becomes when one is deliberate about the words they choose to use.
On August 14 2010 05:32 Fontong wrote: The amount I'm offended by the word 'rape' is zero. If this was about the words 'gay' or 'faggot', or any other derogatory term referring to homosexuality, I would be much more open.
Rape victims are not being oppressed by society like homosexuals are, so let's deal with the bigger issues first, eh?
I'm not about to play 'who is worse off' but to say that homosexuals have a monopoly on negative treatment by society is ludicrous.
Good thing I didn't say that
You did say that you can';t be bothered with rape victims because homosexuals have a much worse situation. Which is ridiculous.
Not so much that he can't be bothered, but rather "there are bigger issues that need to be addressed first."
wait. what.
1) what other bigger issues 2) who has the say on the prioritisation of these issues 3) what kind of bubble do you live in where rape is not a ubiquitous issue that needs perennial addressing?
I'm fairly sure he said that homosexual slurs being used was far more offensive than words that could offend rape victims. He didn't say rape wasn't an issue but rather that there is a huge amount of homophobic language casually used that makes this single issue of the word rape look rather minor.
So would you say kwark that the use of homophobic language is an issue that needs to be addressed? And if so you're saying it would require a certain amount of prominent, mainstream use of a word for it to become a sufficient enough political issue?
On August 14 2010 05:43 ShinyGerbil wrote: No, I won't stop saying rape. I won't say "are you retarded" in front of my disabled friends, I won't say "that faggot dt dropped me" in front of my gay friends, I won't say "stupid nigger" in front of my black friends, and I won't say "damn i got jewed" in front of my jewish friends. And I probably won't say rape in front of you OP, because you are sensitive about it (regardless of whether you are a victim or not). But that gives me no reason to stop saying it in general. This is the ideal trade off.
This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that?
Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance.
I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words.
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry.
Read this:
rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883.
So as you can see, rape means to take something by force.
Read this:
"I was raped."
So as you can see, that person's body was taken by force.
Read this:
"those zerglings are raping the hellions!" Better put those Hellions in a councelling group.
Sorry, but your attempt at circumventing the cultural understanding of what the word rape means is funny at best.
On August 14 2010 05:59 Phyrion wrote: The main point I take away from the OP is this:
If we want to see ESports come to the West, we have to adhere to the same standards of language that is on public TV sports. I would love to see Starcraft II Tournaments shown on TV and make into the mainstream just like football or soccer or basketball.
I have never once heard a football commentator say "JESUS CHRIST did you see that pass?" Or a basketball commentator say "That was the longest fucking three pointer I have ever seen!" "GOD he is raping the other team all by himself!"
If we continue to use the words rape, faggot, Jesus Christ to commentate games, we will never move ESports to any major network ever. Having read this thread and seeing that most gamers don't care too much about others feelings and sensitivity to certain words and phrases, ESports will never make it in the West.
Here's the problem with that. We're talking about amateur sport. What the caster's do on their own streams is their business. It isn't professional. Get that through your head. Sure, they might take it seriously, but the thing is many of us don't. It's something we do in our leisure time for shits, giggles and entertainment purposes. You are taking things out of context. It's purely situational.
Many gamers here don't feel the necessity, correction. Let me rephrase that. Don't want, or need to be taken seriously.
I think this is political correctness gone overboard.
It's all about context guys. If lings raped a bunch of hellions, it certainly does not imply that the zerglings did the down and dirty and force themselves on the hellions... It's part of the gaming culture, just like how the hip hop scene uses such as nigga, bling and booty and all that junk.
Neo, at least a couple of people have said that they never thought about the issue before and will be more mindful of their use of the word in the future. :/
On August 14 2010 06:19 SpicyCrab wrote: Neo, at least a couple of people have said that they never thought about the issue before and will be more mindful of their use of the word in the future. :/
Good. Then this thread wasn't merely ending with my brain exploding out of my ears.
On August 14 2010 05:43 ShinyGerbil wrote: No, I won't stop saying rape. I won't say "are you retarded" in front of my disabled friends, I won't say "that faggot dt dropped me" in front of my gay friends, I won't say "stupid nigger" in front of my black friends, and I won't say "damn i got jewed" in front of my jewish friends. And I probably won't say rape in front of you OP, because you are sensitive about it (regardless of whether you are a victim or not). But that gives me no reason to stop saying it in general. This is the ideal trade off.
This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that?
Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance.
I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words.
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry.
Read this:
rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883.
So as you can see, rape means to take something by force. [edit] Not always sexual, is my point.
Yes, I'm agreeing with you...
I meant to continue your conversation, I just thought it would fit in when we were talking about history fo words.
On August 14 2010 05:43 ShinyGerbil wrote: No, I won't stop saying rape. I won't say "are you retarded" in front of my disabled friends, I won't say "that faggot dt dropped me" in front of my gay friends, I won't say "stupid nigger" in front of my black friends, and I won't say "damn i got jewed" in front of my jewish friends. And I probably won't say rape in front of you OP, because you are sensitive about it (regardless of whether you are a victim or not). But that gives me no reason to stop saying it in general. This is the ideal trade off.
This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that?
Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance.
I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words.
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry.
Read this:
rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883.
So as you can see, rape means to take something by force.
Read this:
"I was raped."
So as you can see, that person's body was taken by force.
So like... captured? Or kidnapped? I'm still missing the part about sexual intercourse.
Oh and the comparison to professional sports casting is ludicrous. If E-sports got sponsored with millions of dollars and was seen on national TV, you're going to see a lot more mature casters lol.
On August 14 2010 06:18 toadstool wrote: I think this is political correctness gone overboard.
It's all about context guys. If lings raped a bunch of hellions, it certainly does not imply that the zerglings did the down and dirty and force themselves on the hellions... It's part of the gaming culture, just like how the hip hop scene uses such as nigga, bling and booty and all that junk.
They did force themselves on the hellions, and violate the bodies of the hellion pilots. That they tore them open rather than merely penetrating a pre-existing orifice makes the event far worse.
On August 14 2010 05:32 Fontong wrote: The amount I'm offended by the word 'rape' is zero. If this was about the words 'gay' or 'faggot', or any other derogatory term referring to homosexuality, I would be much more open.
Rape victims are not being oppressed by society like homosexuals are, so let's deal with the bigger issues first, eh?
I'm not about to play 'who is worse off' but to say that homosexuals have a monopoly on negative treatment by society is ludicrous.
Good thing I didn't say that
You did say that you can';t be bothered with rape victims because homosexuals have a much worse situation. Which is ridiculous.
Not so much that he can't be bothered, but rather "there are bigger issues that need to be addressed first."
wait. what.
1) what other bigger issues 2) who has the say on the prioritisation of these issues 3) what kind of bubble do you live in where rape is not a ubiquitous issue that needs perennial addressing?
I'm fairly sure he said that homosexual slurs being used was far more offensive than words that could offend rape victims. He didn't say rape wasn't an issue but rather that there is a huge amount of homophobic language casually used that makes this single issue of the word rape look rather minor.
So would you say kwark that the use of homophobic language is an issue that needs to be addressed? And if so you're saying it would require a certain amount of prominent, mainstream use of a word for it to become a sufficient enough political issue?
No, I was merely clarifying his point. My personal view is that if I wish to call someone a faggot (I very much dislike that term) then as long as I'm not doing so because he's gay or because of negative values I associate with homosexuality then I should feel free to do so. It's an insult, just like bitch. It's only a hate word when it's used as a hate word. This is another topic though.
On August 14 2010 05:50 HeIios wrote: Sticks and stones etc... Stop being a victim to a word, freedom to say whatever you want is usually what you americans treasure above all.
The correct version of 'sticks and stones' should be "Stick and stones may break my bones, but words will break my soul". Words actually can hurt, in a physical sense. Brain scans provethis (some google fu here, can't find better keywords for now). I agree that saying the word falls under free speech, and everyone is free do to so. This thread is about being considerate towards a minority out of kindness. Not about banning the word.
the only way you are gonna get people to stop using the word rape is to come up with something even more harsh, such as by going to the next taboo (which i feel would be a combination of sexual and racist reference)
i have some suggestions but I don't want to be perma-banned.
On August 14 2010 06:19 SpicyCrab wrote: Neo, at least a couple of people have said that they never thought about the issue before and will be more mindful of their use of the word in the future. :/
That's what I said earlier. So my question to you is, why are you continuing to push the subject?
Yeah, I never really started using the term "rape" until i came to high school and people started using the term like anything. Then I caught onto to using it and its been liek that for 3 years. =\
At first i was really confused as to why the term "rape" was being used, but eventually i just went with the flow and not really thought about it afterwards =/
On August 14 2010 04:01 KwarK wrote: Edit: Stealing a way better example made later in the topic. Beat clearly has a negative meaning in domestic violence. Wife beating and physical child abuse are more common than rape and are extremely damaging. That does not mean we should stop using beat as a synonym for win.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
I know I'm not really adding anything to this rough and tumble jungle of a thread, but I feel strongly enough about the use of words that I feel compelled to quote this post.
I'm glad KwarK's viewpoint (and mine) was expressed properly as early as the first page of this thread. Newcomers to explosive threads that generate lots of replies never read the entire thread - and why would we expect them to? Normal people don't have that kind of time. Full disclosure: the reply you're reading was posted without the author having read the whole discussion.
I don't know what to say. I'm married and I'm sensitive to women's issues, including sexual violence. But I'm also a wordsmith and a linguist. Because our species can't read minds, all we have are symbol systems to communicate meaning. Call me callous, but I am unmoved by pleas stating that words mean the same thing all the time - they don't.
Yes: Rape victims were physically and psychologically harmed. No, that does not mean that the word "rape" always means the same thing. The same psychological counseling that some rape victims need to recover their senses should also suffice to alert them to the fact that their experience does not extend to everyone, that their use of a word in a language is not special or sacred. It is powerful in their own context. It is not powerful in gaming. It is casual, colorful, expressive. Words need context and ABOVE ALL, they need agreement, in order to communicate meaning.
Agreement. We have to agree on what our symbols mean, or they are meaningless. I'm sorry, but I am not willing to agree that when Day9 says "Argh, these vultures are raping my probes!" it means "real sexual violence is being committed against a real person" or anything else equally silly. If your mind isn't powerful enough to assign meaning with context, then I daresay you need further counseling after the sexual assault you experienced. Our use of language is not a threat or an insult to anyone. It is not a positive framing of violence. It's a metaphor for a video game.
On August 14 2010 06:20 toadstool wrote: Oh and the comparison to professional sports casting is ludicrous. If E-sports got sponsored with millions of dollars and was seen on national TV, you're going to see a lot more mature casters lol.
But we (the gaming/SC community) are trying to bring SC/SC2/E-Sports up to a professional level (at least in the West), are we not?
I sure hope, and I mean this sincerely, that this at least helps some people change and grow out of their childish use of the english language.
Rape is not a word that would be appropriate for a dinner conversation or at a business meeting. I sure hope one day gamers can hold themselves to a higher standard of conversation but I doubt it after reading through 18 pages of idiots.
On August 14 2010 06:21 BillClinton wrote: i still dont get whats good about offending people, it seems some people insist on their right being free to offend others
You offend me by saying that. Plz dont post anymore mkay!
agree with the OP! - I was kind of shocked the first time i read the word. I got accustomed to people using it, but I think it is a bad thing to do.
Reason why I write: Some say its ignorance to be offended by the word - apparently meaning people were obliged to identify that the very specific gaming vocabularies meaning is used, but the general understanding.
As long as you use the word in game and with your gaming friends - I dont see a big issue. These people usally know there is a specific gaming language. Its far fetched to expect everyone to know this. YOU as the gamer know when you enter a place where your "gaming vocab" will be missunderstood. Thus it is YOUR resposibility to take care people understand your meaning - not theirs to understand your very specific one. I agree, if you think someone entering a LAN might be ignorant to get up to wall by the language there. He is the guest of the community and should be able to identify there is a specific language and specific rules. BUT a gamer using the word in public expecting people to not understand the most obvious meaning is in my eyes ignorant.
A grown-up should be able to realize this. Using a usually very sensitive word in public and expecting public to recon its gaming roots is bold.
I am more relaxed to the usage within the community, but some examples from this thread ("raped" on an exam paper") show me that some people are not able to distinguish between the acceptable and non-acceptable use - which rises concerns about our communities public image.
Finally I personally feel the word should not be used as it is glorifying a perverse act even in gaming context.
No, I was merely clarifying his point. My personal view is that if I wish to call someone a faggot (I very much dislike that term) then as long as I'm not doing so because he's gay or because of negative values I associate with homosexuality then I should feel free to do so. It's an insult, just like bitch. It's only a hate word when it's used as a hate word. This is another topic though.
It is easy to fall into the trap of thinking 'my intentions' clear me of any wrongdoing. Since you are not against gay practices and you are not intending to express homophobia you think that thus using the terms would not be harmful. But there are unintended consequences and in the very least using the word 'faggot' negatively all the time, at the very least it reinforced a negative connotation.
That is an example of hyperbole. The hellions are not actually raping zerglings in the ass. They are simply killing zerglings in a game.
Then why not simply say that...?
people love sensationalism and emotionalism. hyperbole is the means to that end. you'll notice this happens in a fair amount of the time in day to day living if you keep an eye out for it.
And thus the sloppiness of our language is not only continued, but embraced and celebrated.
It's amazing how much smoother communication becomes when one is deliberate about the words they choose to use.
It's not sloppiness of language, it's part of our culture. Hyperbole and quick words has been part of digital media and society for the past century or so?
On August 14 2010 06:21 BillClinton wrote: i still dont get whats good about offending people, it seems some people insist on their right being free to offend others
On August 14 2010 06:21 BillClinton wrote: i still dont get whats good about offending people, it seems some people insist on their right being free to offend others
This is not the argument being discussed.
The point is everything you say could possibly offend someone and rather than having a dictionary that is 40% blacked out. We could all just use the power of our mind to let it roll off and understand that what is being said is just common language.
That is an example of hyperbole. The hellions are not actually raping zerglings in the ass. They are simply killing zerglings in a game.
Then why not simply say that...?
people love sensationalism and emotionalism. hyperbole is the means to that end. you'll notice this happens in a fair amount of the time in day to day living if you keep an eye out for it.
And thus the sloppiness of our language is not only continued, but embraced and celebrated.
It's amazing how much smoother communication becomes when one is deliberate about the words they choose to use.
I see no negatives from removing this term from the "pro" scene of casters. I think it is a step in NOT alienating potential fans. We, as gamers, are already fighting enough stereotypes. Let's not add to the problem.
This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that?
Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance.
I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words.
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry.
Read this:
rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883.
So as you can see, rape means to take something by force. [edit] Not always sexual, is my point.
Yes, I'm agreeing with you...
I meant to continue your conversation, I just thought it would fit in when we were talking about history fo words.
On August 14 2010 05:43 ShinyGerbil wrote: No, I won't stop saying rape. I won't say "are you retarded" in front of my disabled friends, I won't say "that faggot dt dropped me" in front of my gay friends, I won't say "stupid nigger" in front of my black friends, and I won't say "damn i got jewed" in front of my jewish friends. And I probably won't say rape in front of you OP, because you are sensitive about it (regardless of whether you are a victim or not). But that gives me no reason to stop saying it in general. This is the ideal trade off.
This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that?
Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance.
I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words.
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry.
Read this:
rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883.
So as you can see, rape means to take something by force.
Read this:
"I was raped."
So as you can see, that person's body was taken by force.
So like... captured? Or kidnapped? I'm still missing the part about sexual intercourse.
Name one person in our lifetimes who has said "I was raped" and meant I was kidnapped or captured and meant 0 about sexual abuse. Cmon :[
On August 14 2010 06:14 hp.Shell wrote: I agree entirely with the OP. "Rape" can be an offensive word to /people/people who know people/people who think about people/ who have been raped or severely traumatized, including torture victims, domestic violence victims, et al.
Now, though, I'd like to share an equally important word(s) that should be thrown out of the vocabulary when speaking in most contexts. Please note I do not intend to offend anyone, nor am I implying that taking the word "rape" out of the language of gamer culture isn't important.
The word is "god." I am a spiritual person, and I believe in a One Supreme Being I'll call the Creator. However, if you're talking about "god," you should not use that word. You should use something like "creator" instead. The reason for this is that the word "god" implies a certain kind of ownership by a human or otherwise lesser being than the creator. If you think about your idea of "god," that is showing disrespect to the creator. You should instead think about THE creator, and not "your god." When you talk about pagan gods or the Christian god or the Muslim god, etc, the word "god" is used as a word that means "THEIR version of THE creator."
This implication of "ownership" of the creator, while convenient to use in vernacular, might be alarming to some of you non-atheists when you first recognize this possibility. I am currently trying to take the word "god" out of my vocabulary and replace it with "creator" or "the one eternal source" or something similar.
This is also the reason why I'm shaky on the whole "gay marriage" debate. Now, I support gay marriage in the legal sense, because I believe the more equal we are written into our laws the better, but you have to look at the very definition of "marriage" to understand that "gay marriage" is a paradox. The word "marriage" is a biblical term, and we all know what orthodox conservatives think about gay marriage. It's like saying "same-sex heterosexual spiritual union." The very word "marriage," due to it originating from the bible which is allegedly against gay marriage, discriminates against gays.
There are other words that have more meaning than you may like to give them, including "enormous," which, in addition to "very big," also means "wicked" or "evil." So if you see a holy angel one day and it is very big, do not call it "enormous," for you would be attributing more to it than you actually mean.
Sorry to ramble, but if you're spiritual/religious you may find that your life improves when you stop implying ownership of the very being that created you, the universe, and everything. Once, again, I'm not trying to offend people or spark debate. My major point is that there are words like this everywhere that have lost their full meaning because they are thrown around so carelessly in modern times.
I'm an atheist but I thought that Christians believed that God owned them? I don't think creator is a good word because people will think you are a creationist and probably think less of you. Marriage doesn't have to be religious. When I get married it will not be in a church, and we have this lovely thing called separation of church and state, so I think when talking about Gay marriage, you should use the secular definition of marriage and not a biblical one. The same book in the Bible also says that you can't eat shellfish, etc. It can't be taken literally.
P.S. I know we shouldn't be talking about this on TL, but since he brought these things up I feel obligated to respond. I really hate to see religion get in the way of rational thought
On August 14 2010 05:53 ShinyGerbil wrote: [quote]
Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance.
I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words.
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry.
Read this:
rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883.
So as you can see, rape means to take something by force. [edit] Not always sexual, is my point.
Yes, I'm agreeing with you...
I meant to continue your conversation, I just thought it would fit in when we were talking about history fo words.
Ah, OK, that makes sense!
On August 14 2010 06:12 fly.stat wrote:
On August 14 2010 06:11 HeIios wrote:
On August 14 2010 06:06 keV. wrote:
On August 14 2010 06:00 choboPEon wrote:
On August 14 2010 05:59 DaCruise wrote:
On August 14 2010 05:56 choboPEon wrote:
On August 14 2010 05:53 ShinyGerbil wrote:
On August 14 2010 05:46 choboPEon wrote: [quote]
This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that?
Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance.
I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words.
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry.
Read this:
rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883.
So as you can see, rape means to take something by force.
Read this:
"I was raped."
So as you can see, that person's body was taken by force.
So like... captured? Or kidnapped? I'm still missing the part about sexual intercourse.
Name one person in our lifetimes who has said "I was raped" and meant I was kidnapped or captured and meant 0 about sexual abuse. Cmon :[
On August 14 2010 06:20 toadstool wrote: Oh and the comparison to professional sports casting is ludicrous. If E-sports got sponsored with millions of dollars and was seen on national TV, you're going to see a lot more mature casters lol.
But we (the gaming/SC community) are trying to bring SC/SC2/E-Sports up to a professional level (at least in the West), are we not?
The sponsors are not going to drop E-sports because we say rape a lot, or we're a bunch of immature little kids. They'll start putting money into E-sports when they can make money out of E-sports.
They're marketing a gaming culture who say rape and gg to a whole market of gaming people who say rape and gg.
I am sure the Korean gaming culture have the same immature idiosyncrasies as our gaming culture, but their E-sports is quite successful?
On August 14 2010 06:23 ThE.SparkZ wrote: I sure hope, and I mean this sincerely, that this at least helps some people change and grow out of their childish use of the english language.
Rape is not a word that would be appropriate for a dinner conversation or at a business meeting. I sure hope one day gamers can hold themselves to a higher standard of conversation but I doubt it after reading through 18 pages of idiots.
That's the point though. We don't want to feel like we're in a business meeting or a formal dinner all the time. Many of us do and have the ability to use English properly when the situation calls for it. Right after owning/raping some noob with cannon rushes is not one of those times.
That is an example of hyperbole. The hellions are not actually raping zerglings in the ass. They are simply killing zerglings in a game.
Then why not simply say that...?
people love sensationalism and emotionalism. hyperbole is the means to that end. you'll notice this happens in a fair amount of the time in day to day living if you keep an eye out for it.
And thus the sloppiness of our language is not only continued, but embraced and celebrated.
It's amazing how much smoother communication becomes when one is deliberate about the words they choose to use.
It's not sloppiness of language, it's part of our culture. Hyperbole and quick words has been part of digital media and society for the past century or so?
Damn you, I squirted milk on my keyboard.
History and cultural norm have little to do with the descriptors that can otherwise be attached to a concept.
Homophobia was a cultural norm for a long time, it was and still is bigotry. Slavery was a cultural norm, it was still oppressive, and in many cases, racism.
Sloppiness can be part of a culture; it will still be sloppiness.
I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words.
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry.
Read this:
rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883.
So as you can see, rape means to take something by force. [edit] Not always sexual, is my point.
Yes, I'm agreeing with you...
I meant to continue your conversation, I just thought it would fit in when we were talking about history fo words.
Ah, OK, that makes sense!
On August 14 2010 06:12 fly.stat wrote:
On August 14 2010 06:11 HeIios wrote:
On August 14 2010 06:06 keV. wrote:
On August 14 2010 06:00 choboPEon wrote:
On August 14 2010 05:59 DaCruise wrote:
On August 14 2010 05:56 choboPEon wrote:
On August 14 2010 05:53 ShinyGerbil wrote: [quote]
Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance.
I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words.
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry.
Read this:
rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883.
So as you can see, rape means to take something by force.
Read this:
"I was raped."
So as you can see, that person's body was taken by force.
So like... captured? Or kidnapped? I'm still missing the part about sexual intercourse.
Name one person in our lifetimes who has said "I was raped" and meant I was kidnapped or captured and meant 0 about sexual abuse. Cmon :[
Gamers?
... when you say I was raped in game you mean you were kidnapped?
Let's not be silly. My point is that it is OBVIOUS what is meant.
Wow, great thought. I never thought how that one word could affect so many that have been through such a horrific incident. But at first I thought u were gonna talk about rape in games haha.
On August 14 2010 05:32 Fontong wrote: The amount I'm offended by the word 'rape' is zero. If this was about the words 'gay' or 'faggot', or any other derogatory term referring to homosexuality, I would be much more open.
Rape victims are not being oppressed by society like homosexuals are, so let's deal with the bigger issues first, eh?
I'm not about to play 'who is worse off' but to say that homosexuals have a monopoly on negative treatment by society is ludicrous.
Good thing I didn't say that
You did say that you can';t be bothered with rape victims because homosexuals have a much worse situation. Which is ridiculous.
Not so much that he can't be bothered, but rather "there are bigger issues that need to be addressed first."
wait. what.
1) what other bigger issues 2) who has the say on the prioritisation of these issues 3) what kind of bubble do you live in where rape is not a ubiquitous issue that needs perennial addressing?
I'm fairly sure he said that homosexual slurs being used was far more offensive than words that could offend rape victims. He didn't say rape wasn't an issue but rather that there is a huge amount of homophobic language casually used that makes this single issue of the word rape look rather minor.
So would you say kwark that the use of homophobic language is an issue that needs to be addressed? And if so you're saying it would require a certain amount of prominent, mainstream use of a word for it to become a sufficient enough political issue?
No, I was merely clarifying his point. My personal view is that if I wish to call someone a faggot (I very much dislike that term) then as long as I'm not doing so because he's gay or because of negative values I associate with homosexuality then I should feel free to do so. It's an insult, just like bitch. It's only a hate word when it's used as a hate word. This is another topic though.
Do you not see the merit in the reduction in the use of these hate-words altogether regardless of the context to reduce the cases whereby it is used as a hate-word? Or let me put it this way; to an extent the hate exists BECAUSE the word exists preceding it in the discursive landscape?
Chappelle's Show for example underwent a transformation from subversive satire into the realms of post-racism given its white middle-class audience. In a similar sense if you look at those in the gaming community that use the word 'rape' in its depoliticised context, the word is politicised, and sexualised once more because of where it exists, a hetero-normative community, no matter how it is used.
On August 14 2010 05:53 ShinyGerbil wrote: [quote]
Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance.
I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words.
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry.
Read this:
rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883.
So as you can see, rape means to take something by force. [edit] Not always sexual, is my point.
Yes, I'm agreeing with you...
I meant to continue your conversation, I just thought it would fit in when we were talking about history fo words.
Ah, OK, that makes sense!
On August 14 2010 06:12 fly.stat wrote:
On August 14 2010 06:11 HeIios wrote:
On August 14 2010 06:06 keV. wrote:
On August 14 2010 06:00 choboPEon wrote:
On August 14 2010 05:59 DaCruise wrote:
On August 14 2010 05:56 choboPEon wrote:
On August 14 2010 05:53 ShinyGerbil wrote:
On August 14 2010 05:46 choboPEon wrote: [quote]
This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that?
Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance.
I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words.
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry.
Read this:
rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883.
So as you can see, rape means to take something by force.
Read this:
"I was raped."
So as you can see, that person's body was taken by force.
So like... captured? Or kidnapped? I'm still missing the part about sexual intercourse.
Name one person in our lifetimes who has said "I was raped" and meant I was kidnapped or captured and meant 0 about sexual abuse. Cmon :[
I'm not talking about our lifetimes, the point that was made is that rape has always meant to rape in a sexual way. It wasn't. I think that has been said multiple times. You could easily find the word rape used in another way in a book written this year probably.
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry.
Read this:
rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883.
So as you can see, rape means to take something by force. [edit] Not always sexual, is my point.
Yes, I'm agreeing with you...
I meant to continue your conversation, I just thought it would fit in when we were talking about history fo words.
Ah, OK, that makes sense!
On August 14 2010 06:12 fly.stat wrote:
On August 14 2010 06:11 HeIios wrote:
On August 14 2010 06:06 keV. wrote:
On August 14 2010 06:00 choboPEon wrote:
On August 14 2010 05:59 DaCruise wrote:
On August 14 2010 05:56 choboPEon wrote: [quote]
I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words.
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry.
Read this:
rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883.
So as you can see, rape means to take something by force.
Read this:
"I was raped."
So as you can see, that person's body was taken by force.
So like... captured? Or kidnapped? I'm still missing the part about sexual intercourse.
Name one person in our lifetimes who has said "I was raped" and meant I was kidnapped or captured and meant 0 about sexual abuse. Cmon :[
Gamers?
... when you say I was raped in game you mean you were kidnapped?
You're a bit on the thick side. Remember: Rape meant to take something by force, being taken by force. Along with all those other things.
You could say the word has different meanings. Scary thought, right?
On August 14 2010 06:18 toadstool wrote: I think this is political correctness gone overboard.
It's all about context guys. If lings raped a bunch of hellions, it certainly does not imply that the zerglings did the down and dirty and force themselves on the hellions... It's part of the gaming culture, just like how the hip hop scene uses such as nigga, bling and booty and all that junk.
They did force themselves on the hellions, and violate the bodies of the hellion pilots. That they tore them open rather than merely penetrating a pre-existing orifice makes the event far worse.
Oh... well then.
I guess this just turned into a sensitive subject. My condolenses to the hellion's family.
Thank you thank you thank you OP. I have been trying to formulate the words for this for so long. I understand that 'rape' is embedded in gaming culture, but just think how it sounds to the outside world. Gaming and gamers will continue to garner an adolescent (and horridly immature) reputation if we insist on defending the use of word like this. YOU don't think it's a big deal. I get it. It is. So stop. It's a small change with a hugely positive impact. You can't know how it affects people if it hasn't happened to you, so by saying it you are speaking out of ignorance, and then defending our own ignorance. It sounds moronic. Consider yourself lucky you don't know what it's like, and defer to the people who are asking you to stop. Being competitive is one thing, being grossly macho and sophomoric is something else.
That is an example of hyperbole. The hellions are not actually raping zerglings in the ass. They are simply killing zerglings in a game.
Then why not simply say that...?
people love sensationalism and emotionalism. hyperbole is the means to that end. you'll notice this happens in a fair amount of the time in day to day living if you keep an eye out for it.
And thus the sloppiness of our language is not only continued, but embraced and celebrated.
It's amazing how much smoother communication becomes when one is deliberate about the words they choose to use.
I see no negatives from removing this term from the "pro" scene of casters. I think it is a step in NOT alienating potential fans. We, as gamers, are already fighting enough stereotypes. Let's not add to the problem.
Agreed. Other than forcing us to take up slightly more time to think before we say something (Which by the way, seems to be lacking in the majority of gaming circles), I can't think of a reason why the term should be used in e-sports/gaming.
That is an example of hyperbole. The hellions are not actually raping zerglings in the ass. They are simply killing zerglings in a game.
Then why not simply say that...?
people love sensationalism and emotionalism. hyperbole is the means to that end. you'll notice this happens in a fair amount of the time in day to day living if you keep an eye out for it.
And thus the sloppiness of our language is not only continued, but embraced and celebrated.
It's amazing how much smoother communication becomes when one is deliberate about the words they choose to use.
It's not sloppiness of language, it's part of our culture. Hyperbole and quick words has been part of digital media and society for the past century or so?
Damn you, I squirted milk on my keyboard.
History and cultural norm have little to do with the descriptors that can otherwise be attached to a concept.
Homophobia was a cultural norm for a long time, it was and still is bigotry. Slavery was a cultural norm, it was still oppressive, and in the many cases, racism.
So? Being polite has been the cultural norm for a very long time. Giving handshakes has been a cultural norm for a long time? I don't get your point.
So, you're in the heat of the moment. Your opponents HT/colossi army is sitting in the middle of the map, and you are in the perfect position to strike. You move in, quickly and ruthlessly, only to find out that he had a hidden mothership. It recalls a whole mass of carriers, which proceed to decimate your force.
What is the first thing that comes to your mind?
A) My inaccurate assessment of his composition has inevitably led me to this inglorious demise. B) I just got raped.
On August 14 2010 06:34 AmbitiousNub wrote: So, you're in the heat of the moment. Your opponents HT/colossi army is sitting in the middle of the map, and you are in the perfect position to strike. You move in, quickly and ruthlessly, only to find out that he had a hidden mothership. It recalls a whole mass of carriers, which proceed to decimate your force.
What is the first thing that comes to your mind?
A) My inaccurate assessment of his composition has inevitably led me to this inglorious demise. B) I just got raped.
"I shouldn't have done that," or for the even more hastily-inclinded, "Oh ____" (Insert expletive).
On August 14 2010 05:59 Phyrion wrote: If we want to see ESports come to the West, we have to adhere to the same standards of language that is on public TV sports. I would love to see Starcraft II Tournaments shown on TV and make into the mainstream just like football or soccer or basketball.
I have never once heard a football commentator say "JESUS CHRIST did you see that pass?" Or a basketball commentator say "That was the longest fucking three pointer I have ever seen!" "GOD he is raping the other team all by himself!"
If we continue to use the words rape, faggot, Jesus Christ to commentate games, we will never move ESports to any major network ever. Having read this thread and seeing that most gamers don't care too much about others feelings and sensitivity to certain words and phrases, ESports will never make it in the West.
Basically this ^
It is not the responsibility of the gaming community to stop using words like 'rape' and 'owned', just like it is not the responsibility of the sports watching community to stop using the words described above. It is the responsibility of the broadcasters if they want to attain mass appeal, if they want to appeal to the Soccer Moms of America. You could claim it is the responsibility of the community to condemn the usage of the word, but I don't feel that the majority of the gaming community finds the words offensive in this context, and this is definitely not a community where the Soccer Moms of America have a large say, unlike broadcasted television. Sure, the rest of the world might find it offensive, but the rest of the world probably doesn't even take gaming seriously, so why should we care what they think?
OP, Perhaps you should have said something along the lines as the poster quoted here. Something along the lines as, you can personally use the word as much as you like, but refrain from using it during tournaments or broadcasts, and hold those who do responsible. So, that we as a community can display ourselves in a much more positive light to an outsider looking in. Instead you come off as trying to tell the community what words to use and not use, because of how you and your friends feel they are offensive. You portray a holier than thou complex, insisting your opinion is '100% right', and that is not a good way to get your core message across.
What you people are doing is detrimental to our digital evolution. With the internet getting faster, and little memes and internet culture evolving and taking over our lives, you want to hold on to old conventions, because those old conventions do not apply to our online selves.
The English language and our general youth are changing at a much more rapid pace than ever before because of technology, it's better to deal with the change as it comes along rather than using pre-internet mannerisms to dictate where we're heading.
On August 14 2010 06:20 toadstool wrote: Oh and the comparison to professional sports casting is ludicrous. If E-sports got sponsored with millions of dollars and was seen on national TV, you're going to see a lot more mature casters lol.
But we (the gaming/SC community) are trying to bring SC/SC2/E-Sports up to a professional level (at least in the West), are we not?
The sponsors are not going to drop E-sports because we say rape a lot, or we're a bunch of immature little kids. They'll start putting money into E-sports when they can make money out of E-sports.
They're marketing a gaming culture who say rape and gg to a whole market of gaming people who say rape and gg.
I am sure the Korean gaming culture have the same immature idiosyncrasies as our gaming culture, but their E-sports is quite successful?
They would if it portrays them with a negative image. They'd do it in a second.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry.
Read this:
rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883.
So as you can see, rape means to take something by force. [edit] Not always sexual, is my point.
Yes, I'm agreeing with you...
I meant to continue your conversation, I just thought it would fit in when we were talking about history fo words.
Ah, OK, that makes sense!
On August 14 2010 06:12 fly.stat wrote:
On August 14 2010 06:11 HeIios wrote:
On August 14 2010 06:06 keV. wrote:
On August 14 2010 06:00 choboPEon wrote:
On August 14 2010 05:59 DaCruise wrote: [quote]
Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry.
You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry.
Read this:
rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883.
So as you can see, rape means to take something by force.
Read this:
"I was raped."
So as you can see, that person's body was taken by force.
So like... captured? Or kidnapped? I'm still missing the part about sexual intercourse.
Name one person in our lifetimes who has said "I was raped" and meant I was kidnapped or captured and meant 0 about sexual abuse. Cmon :[
Gamers?
... when you say I was raped in game you mean you were kidnapped?
You're a bit on the thick side. Remember: Rape meant to take something by force, being taken by force. Along with all those other things.
You could say the word has different meanings. Scary thought, right?
A) Don't personally insult me, thanks.
B) We're going in circles but my point was: the poster was jokingly saying he didn't know what was meant by "i was raped" and said "you were kidnapped?" which is never used. then it was said that gamers use the kidnapped meaning. I found this to be a little silly. Then you got red-faced and angry and decided it was time to show me who was boss and insult me.
Anyway, I can't seem to tear myself away from this thread argh. But I will now. Have fun.
On August 14 2010 05:59 Phyrion wrote: If we want to see ESports come to the West, we have to adhere to the same standards of language that is on public TV sports. I would love to see Starcraft II Tournaments shown on TV and make into the mainstream just like football or soccer or basketball.
I have never once heard a football commentator say "JESUS CHRIST did you see that pass?" Or a basketball commentator say "That was the longest fucking three pointer I have ever seen!" "GOD he is raping the other team all by himself!"
If we continue to use the words rape, faggot, Jesus Christ to commentate games, we will never move ESports to any major network ever. Having read this thread and seeing that most gamers don't care too much about others feelings and sensitivity to certain words and phrases, ESports will never make it in the West.
Basically this ^
It is not the responsibility of the gaming community to stop using words like 'rape' and 'owned', just like it is not the responsibility of the sports watching community to stop using the words described above. It is the responsibility of the broadcasters if they want to attain mass appeal, if they want to appeal to the Soccer Moms of America. You could claim it is the responsibility of the community to condemn the usage of the word, but I don't feel that the majority of the gaming community finds the words offensive in this context, and this is definitely not a community where the Soccer Moms of America have a large say, unlike broadcasted television. Sure, the rest of the world might find it offensive, but the rest of the world probably doesn't even take gaming seriously, so why should we care what they think?
OP, Perhaps you should have said something along the lines as the poster quoted here. Something along the lines as, you can personally use the word as much as you like, but refrain from using it during tournaments or broadcasts, and hold those who do responsible. So, that we as a community can display ourselves in a much more positive light to an outsider looking in. Instead you come off as trying to tell the community what words to use and not use, because of how you and your friends feel they are offensive. You portray a holier than thou complex, insisting your opinion is '100% right', and that is not a good way to get your core message across.
Hip hop celebrates drive bys shootings, the gangsta life style and drug dealing. Yet it is the driving force of our music and pop culture at the moment. Why is that? The soccer mums of America would be outraged that Eminem is singing about killing his girlfriend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stop being so damn sensitive. Money dictates what will be in popular culture. If the money is right, E-sports will grow. And the money will come from the audience, which will appreciate rape and pwnage in all its un adulterated un filtered use. Unless we're tryng to expand into the soccer mums of America audience, well then we're shit out of luck.
On August 14 2010 05:59 Phyrion wrote: If we want to see ESports come to the West, we have to adhere to the same standards of language that is on public TV sports. I would love to see Starcraft II Tournaments shown on TV and make into the mainstream just like football or soccer or basketball.
I have never once heard a football commentator say "JESUS CHRIST did you see that pass?" Or a basketball commentator say "That was the longest fucking three pointer I have ever seen!" "GOD he is raping the other team all by himself!"
If we continue to use the words rape, faggot, Jesus Christ to commentate games, we will never move ESports to any major network ever. Having read this thread and seeing that most gamers don't care too much about others feelings and sensitivity to certain words and phrases, ESports will never make it in the West.
Basically this ^
It is not the responsibility of the gaming community to stop using words like 'rape' and 'owned', just like it is not the responsibility of the sports watching community to stop using the words described above. It is the responsibility of the broadcasters if they want to attain mass appeal, if they want to appeal to the Soccer Moms of America. You could claim it is the responsibility of the community to condemn the usage of the word, but I don't feel that the majority of the gaming community finds the words offensive in this context, and this is definitely not a community where the Soccer Moms of America have a large say, unlike broadcasted television. Sure, the rest of the world might find it offensive, but the rest of the world probably doesn't even take gaming seriously, so why should we care what they think?
OP, Perhaps you should have said something along the lines as the poster quoted here. Something along the lines as, you can personally use the word as much as you like, but refrain from using it during tournaments or broadcasts, and hold those who do responsible. So, that we as a community can display ourselves in a much more positive light to an outsider looking in. Instead you come off as trying to tell the community what words to use and not use, because of how you and your friends feel they are offensive. You portray a holier than thou complex, insisting your opinion is '100% right', and that is not a good way to get your core message across.
Hip hop celebrates drive bys shootings, the gangsta life style and drug dealing. Yet it is the driving force of our music and pop culture at the moment. Why is that? The soccer mums of America would be outraged that Eminem is singing about killing his girlfriend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stop being so damn sensitive. Money dictates what will be in popular culture. If the money is right, E-sports will grow. And the money will come from the audience, which will appreciate rape and pwnage in all its un adulterated un filtered use. Unless we're tryng to expand into the soccer mums of America audience, well then we're shit out of luck.
I truly hope you're not talking about his song with Rihanna that is preaching against the harms of domestic violence.
Everybody says "he/she/it sucks" and nobody gets mad at it, but if you think about it, it has pretty obvious sexual connotations. It's just the matter of perception.
"Rape" in the gaming culture is not offensive at all, but it should not be used in public casts.
On August 14 2010 06:39 FabledIntegral wrote: They would if it portrays them with a negative image. They'd do it in a second.
Not true in all cases, they would only drop if that negative image affects profits.
the assumed negative image will not quite be in their favour would it given that they are antagonising their own market...
Well it seems that their market, us, doesn't have a big issue with the words 'rape' or 'owned', if we did and people started to tune out because their broadcasters let it slip every now and then, then of course you'd see sponsors pulling out, start holding their commentators to higher standards or go about finding new broadcasters that don't let it slip, but that currently is not the case.
Let's be clear about this. We use the word "rape" because it has a connotation of being utterly controlled, destroyed, and violated. Similar to an actual sexual assault. Hell, sometimes we do say "raped in the ass" or "his ass must hurt." Using exaggerations like this and "probe genocide/worker Holocaust" is colorful and makes the commentary more interesting, but can offend some. I'd rather have the commentary be more interesting. But hey, I also enjoy racist jokes and dead baby jokes (not that I would tell either in the presence of certain groups).
On August 14 2010 06:33 thatdontmakecent wrote: Thank you thank you thank you OP. I have been trying to formulate the words for this for so long. I understand that 'rape' is embedded in gaming culture, but just think how it sounds to the outside world. Gaming and gamers will continue to garner an adolescent (and horridly immature) reputation if we insist on defending the use of word like this. YOU don't think it's a big deal. I get it. It is. So stop. It's a small change with a hugely positive impact. You can't know how it affects people if it hasn't happened to you, so by saying it you are speaking out of ignorance, and then defending our own ignorance. It sounds moronic. Consider yourself lucky you don't know what it's like, and defer to the people who are asking you to stop. Being competitive is one thing, being grossly macho and sophomoric is something else.
If you disagree, ok. But think about it? Please?
Great post OP.
What would you do if those words offended someone? Sophomore is just someone in second year of high school. By yours and the OP's argument you must adhere to my sentiment of, let's make up a common story, being picked on by the seniors for being a sophomore. I was bullied and picked on and physically abused, and you using that word makes me feel terrible.
How do you feel about that logic? Are you enticed to cater to my wishes because you had a different meaning, as well as different aim in your statement?
On August 14 2010 06:34 AmbitiousNub wrote: So, you're in the heat of the moment. Your opponents HT/colossi army is sitting in the middle of the map, and you are in the perfect position to strike. You move in, quickly and ruthlessly, only to find out that he had a hidden mothership. It recalls a whole mass of carriers, which proceed to decimate your force.
What is the first thing that comes to your mind?
A) My inaccurate assessment of his composition has inevitably led me to this inglorious demise. B) I just got raped.
"I shouldn't have done that," or for the even more hastily-inclinded, "Oh ____" (Insert expletive).
Not so hard, is it?
I think you missed my point. I'm not going to change the way I think because someone, millions of miles away, got raped, and they might possibly be offended at my train of thought.
This whole moral argument of people saying that rape should not be used in context of getting owned because it offends people is almost as laughable as saying that airplanes are dangerous because terrorists can hijack them.
Rape has happened. And so have airplane hijackings. Does that mean I shouldn't ride an airplane? Does that mean I shouldn't use the term raped, when I did, indeed, get raped?
On August 14 2010 05:32 RosaParksStoleMySeat wrote: The etymology of "beat" shows that the two meanings evolved independently. They simply happen to be homophones. "Beat," as in "strike," was the earliest known form of the word. "Beat," as in "defeat," actually evolved from a later form of "beat" which meant "escape" or "legally avoid."
"Rape" is a completely different story. It obviously derived from the word "sexually abuse" due to the mental trauma and complete helplessness of the victim.
The word "rape" also has multiple meanings, just like "beat".
According to dictionary.com:
–verb (used with object) 6. to force to have sexual intercourse. 7. to plunder (a place); despoil. 8. to seize, take, or carry off by force.
"from Latin rapere to seize"
Words change their meaning over time. I wouldn't be surprised at all if in ten years time the dictionary has added a new meaning for the word "rape".
9. to utterly defeat an opponent.
Is it insensitive to use the word in the meaning "to rape the land"? No, this is the original meaning. Is it insensitive for a gamer to use the word to describe a victory? Maybe, but it's hardly clear-cut. And even if it's considered insensitive today it may not be tomorrow.
I wouldn't personally use such a loaded word but that's mostly cause I'm a total pussy.
If gamers stopped flippantly using the words rape, own, fag, gay, the world would be a better place. But too many gamers feel selfishly entitled to use offensive speech regardless of how it affects others. They don't realize that using abusive language can only harm your reputation with others and has no positive benefits.
On August 14 2010 06:39 FabledIntegral wrote: They would if it portrays them with a negative image. They'd do it in a second.
Not true in all cases, they would only drop if that negative image affects profits.
the assumed negative image will not quite be in their favour would it given that they are antagonising their own market...
Well it seems that their market, us, doesn't have a big issue with the words 'rape' or 'owned', if we did and people started to tune out because their broadcasters let it slip every now and then, then of course you'd see sponsors pulling out, start holding their commentators to higher standards or go about finding new broadcasters that don't let it slip, but that currently is not the case.
The current broadcasting of SC2 games is not a commercial industry, the broadcasters you are referring to are not paid professionals, they are passionate contributors. The idea of 'losing profit' here is far off the mark from the model you are proposing.
The age-old argument. As society is exposed more and more to violence and sex, we become more immune. Hence, we need stronger dosages to get the same euphoric sensations. Likewise words lose their appeal and vocabulary evolves as well.
It's funny because other mediums want more censorship in video games.
EDIT: My post was in response to toadstool's btw. I digress.
On August 14 2010 06:33 thatdontmakecent wrote: Thank you thank you thank you OP. I have been trying to formulate the words for this for so long. I understand that 'rape' is embedded in gaming culture, but just think how it sounds to the outside world. Gaming and gamers will continue to garner an adolescent (and horridly immature) reputation if we insist on defending the use of word like this. YOU don't think it's a big deal. I get it. It is. So stop. It's a small change with a hugely positive impact. You can't know how it affects people if it hasn't happened to you, so by saying it you are speaking out of ignorance, and then defending our own ignorance. It sounds moronic. Consider yourself lucky you don't know what it's like, and defer to the people who are asking you to stop. Being competitive is one thing, being grossly macho and sophomoric is something else.
If you disagree, ok. But think about it? Please?
Great post OP.
What would you do if those words offended someone? Sophomore is just someone in second year of high school. By yours and the OP's argument you must adhere to my sentiment of, let's make up a common story, being picked on by the seniors for being a sophomore. I was bullied and picked on and physically abused, and you using that word makes me feel terrible.
How do you feel about that logic? Are you enticed to cater to my wishes because you had a different meaning, as well as different aim in your statement?
On August 14 2010 06:46 Slow Motion wrote: Let's be clear about this. We use the word "rape" because it has a connotation of being utterly controlled, destroyed, and violated. Similar to an actual sexual assault. Hell, sometimes we do say "raped in the ass" or "his ass must hurt." Using exaggerations like this and "probe genocide/worker Holocaust" is colorful and makes the commentary more interesting, but can offend some. I'd rather have the commentary be more interesting. But hey, I also enjoy racist jokes and dead baby jokes (not that I would tell either in the presence of certain groups).
Okay good good, now take the following step: Think about others who will read what you write. Just think about it, nothing more. You mention the presence of 'other groups', and you and I understand what you mean by that. You don't know what your audience is when you post on TL. Certainly not with the recent growth due to SC2. Those 'certain groups' might withhold you from saying certain things out of fear of retaliation. Those sensitive to the word 'rape' (with their minds on the negative connotation, of course) won't hurt you, but they'll feel hurt indirectly and shun this community. Sure you don't have to care, but you could.
On August 14 2010 06:49 Zealotdriver wrote: If gamers stopped flippantly using the words rape, own, fag, gay, the world would be a better place. But too many gamers feel selfishly entitled to use offensive speech regardless of how it affects others. They don't realize that using abusive language can only harm your reputation with others and has no positive benefits.
this.
I think this post perfectly sums up the argument for why using rape, fag and gay could be seen as bad. Like all the 4chan /b/tards who use it, noone takes them seriously.
The idea is both sides are competing and wanna win. But the superior gamer is one that imposes his will and rapes the inferior gamer. The inferior gamer did not want to lose, he wanted to fight and win, but ultimately had no choice but to be "raped."
On August 14 2010 06:49 Zealotdriver wrote: If gamers stopped flippantly using the words rape, own, fag, gay, the world would be a better place. But too many gamers feel selfishly entitled to use offensive speech regardless of how it affects others. They don't realize that using abusive language can only harm your reputation with others and has no positive benefits.
Gaming IS selfish. I'm not playing Starcraft to make the world a better place. I'm playing to entertain myself. I do this by raping noobs left and right, and by telling them so if I so choose. Low brow and immature? Sure. Great way to blow off steam after a long day at work? Fuck yeah.
On August 14 2010 05:59 Phyrion wrote: If we want to see ESports come to the West, we have to adhere to the same standards of language that is on public TV sports. I would love to see Starcraft II Tournaments shown on TV and make into the mainstream just like football or soccer or basketball.
I have never once heard a football commentator say "JESUS CHRIST did you see that pass?" Or a basketball commentator say "That was the longest fucking three pointer I have ever seen!" "GOD he is raping the other team all by himself!"
If we continue to use the words rape, faggot, Jesus Christ to commentate games, we will never move ESports to any major network ever. Having read this thread and seeing that most gamers don't care too much about others feelings and sensitivity to certain words and phrases, ESports will never make it in the West.
Basically this ^
It is not the responsibility of the gaming community to stop using words like 'rape' and 'owned', just like it is not the responsibility of the sports watching community to stop using the words described above. It is the responsibility of the broadcasters if they want to attain mass appeal, if they want to appeal to the Soccer Moms of America. You could claim it is the responsibility of the community to condemn the usage of the word, but I don't feel that the majority of the gaming community finds the words offensive in this context, and this is definitely not a community where the Soccer Moms of America have a large say, unlike broadcasted television. Sure, the rest of the world might find it offensive, but the rest of the world probably doesn't even take gaming seriously, so why should we care what they think?
OP, Perhaps you should have said something along the lines as the poster quoted here. Something along the lines as, you can personally use the word as much as you like, but refrain from using it during tournaments or broadcasts, and hold those who do responsible. So, that we as a community can display ourselves in a much more positive light to an outsider looking in. Instead you come off as trying to tell the community what words to use and not use, because of how you and your friends feel they are offensive. You portray a holier than thou complex, insisting your opinion is '100% right', and that is not a good way to get your core message across.
Hip hop celebrates drive bys shootings, the gangsta life style and drug dealing. Yet it is the driving force of our music and pop culture at the moment. Why is that? The soccer mums of America would be outraged that Eminem is singing about killing his girlfriend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stop being so damn sensitive. Money dictates what will be in popular culture. If the money is right, E-sports will grow. And the money will come from the audience, which will appreciate rape and pwnage in all its un adulterated un filtered use. Unless we're tryng to expand into the soccer mums of America audience, well then we're shit out of luck.
Those songs you are describing often get censored heavily to attain mass appeal. If they didn't censor them, they would get no radio play time. If they received no radio playtime, their profits would not be as high... Money dictates that to gain mass appeal, you need to censor yourself in certain cases...
I'm not advocating in telling someone what they can or cannot say. I'm just saying that if they want to gain mass appeal, they need to accommodate a lower common denominator.
although everything you said is the absolute truth, the fact is that there is just no censorship on the internet, and there is nothing you can do about it. Everyone on the internet is, for the most part, hidden, and their personal life and experiences are meaningless. English changes every day. the meanings of words change daily. Look at many of the curse words that in the 90s were absolutely forbidden and now they're thrown around like the change in your pocket. Rape is an expression, it's said for the lols. If you are offended by it you clearly have a predisposed bias on the word and you really need to grow up and understand that what people say and what people mean are two different things and what they said is not directed at you simply because you have emotional baggage attached to the word.
On August 14 2010 06:49 Zealotdriver wrote: If gamers stopped flippantly using the words rape, own, fag, gay, the world would be a better place. But too many gamers feel selfishly entitled to use offensive speech regardless of how it affects others. They don't realize that using abusive language can only harm your reputation with others and has no positive benefits.
this.
I think this post perfectly sums up the argument for why using rape, fag and gay could be seen as bad. Like all the 4chan /b/tards who use it, noone takes them seriously.
I take them deadly seriously as tragically depressing indicators of our decaying times.
On August 14 2010 06:49 Zealotdriver wrote: If gamers stopped flippantly using the words rape, own, fag, gay, the world would be a better place. But too many gamers feel selfishly entitled to use offensive speech regardless of how it affects others. They don't realize that using abusive language can only harm your reputation with others and has no positive benefits.
Gaming IS selfish. I'm not playing Starcraft to make the world a better place. I'm playing to entertain myself. I do this by raping noobs left and right, and by telling them so if I so choose. Low brow and immature? Sure. Great way to blow off steam after a long day at work? Fuck yeah.
On August 14 2010 06:14 hp.Shell wrote: I agree entirely with the OP. "Rape" can be an offensive word to /people/people who know people/people who think about people/ who have been raped or severely traumatized, including torture victims, domestic violence victims, et al.
Now, though, I'd like to share an equally important word(s) that should be thrown out of the vocabulary when speaking in most contexts. Please note I do not intend to offend anyone, nor am I implying that taking the word "rape" out of the language of gamer culture isn't important.
The word is "god." I am a spiritual person, and I believe in a One Supreme Being I'll call the Creator. However, if you're talking about "god," you should not use that word. You should use something like "creator" instead. The reason for this is that the word "god" implies a certain kind of ownership by a human or otherwise lesser being than the creator. If you think about your idea of "god," that is showing disrespect to the creator. You should instead think about THE creator, and not "your god." When you talk about pagan gods or the Christian god or the Muslim god, etc, the word "god" is used as a word that means "THEIR version of THE creator."
This implication of "ownership" of the creator, while convenient to use in vernacular, might be alarming to some of you non-atheists when you first recognize this possibility. I am currently trying to take the word "god" out of my vocabulary and replace it with "creator" or "the one eternal source" or something similar.
This is also the reason why I'm shaky on the whole "gay marriage" debate. Now, I support gay marriage in the legal sense, because I believe the more equal we are written into our laws the better, but you have to look at the very definition of "marriage" to understand that "gay marriage" is a paradox. The word "marriage" is a biblical term, and we all know what orthodox conservatives think about gay marriage. It's like saying "same-sex heterosexual spiritual union." The very word "marriage," due to it originating from the bible which is allegedly against gay marriage, discriminates against gays.
There are other words that have more meaning than you may like to give them, including "enormous," which, in addition to "very big," also means "wicked" or "evil." So if you see a holy angel one day and it is very big, do not call it "enormous," for you would be attributing more to it than you actually mean.
Sorry to ramble, but if you're spiritual/religious you may find that your life improves when you stop implying ownership of the very being that created you, the universe, and everything. Once, again, I'm not trying to offend people or spark debate. My major point is that there are words like this everywhere that have lost their full meaning because they are thrown around so carelessly in modern times.
I'm an atheist but I thought that Christians believed that God owned them? I don't think creator is a good word because people will think you are a creationist and probably think less of you. Marriage doesn't have to be religious. When I get married it will not be in a church, and we have this lovely thing called separation of church and state, so I think when talking about Gay marriage, you should use the secular definition of marriage and not a biblical one. The same book in the Bible also says that you can't eat shellfish, etc. It can't be taken literally.
P.S. I know we shouldn't be talking about this on TL, but since he brought these things up I feel obligated to respond. I really hate to see religion get in the way of rational thought
I don't know much about Christianity, but I agree, I think Christians believe they were created by "God," therefore they are "God's creation," implying that "God" owns them, as part of his creation. The word "god" is used for many different religions / spiritual preferences, therefore by definition it is a word that describes the type of creator that particular group believes in. If I say I believe in a giant flashing bright light shapeshifting orb of infinite energy god that can travel throughout his creation (that I call the "universe") thereby manifesting itself as a part of its own creation, that is different from what Christians believe created the universe. Basically it's not a proper noun, and it implies ownership. "My" god as opposed to "yours."
I now am beginning to see that "creator" could be seen the same way. Idk what to use, but I disagree with the general use of "god" to define the creator. There needs to be a word that actually means the ONE. Meaning the ACTUAL Supreme Initiator, regardless of what you or I think it could possibly be / do / want. Idk how to make myself clearer, but hopefully you understand what I mean.
I'm not against gay marriage. I'm just saying the definition of the word was changed when the idea of "legal gay marriage" came up in debate. "Legal gay marriage" meaning "the written law that acknowledges gay equality that gives the same benefits / opportunities as heterosexual couples when pertaining to spiritual / monogamous matters." I'm not saying to take the Bible literally, or any other holy book for that matter. In fact my major belief is that there are a small number of truths in any "holy book," and the rest is a bunch of bs. Some of it is intended bs to control the masses, and other things are probably unintentional misguided / misinformed info. Definitely don't kill your family.
I'm not saying atheism is wrong either but I was turning toward atheism when I realized that I can simply believe in the creator without all the attached dogma / bs that comes with some religions such as killing in the name of Jesus or burning witches at the stake. You could call me a-religious.
I think my own use of words are related to this thread.
I constantly call my friends and even people I have just met "bad" words. I don't mean the litterary meaning of those words and that's the point. It is what I mean as a speaker that matters, not the actual letters or the pronounciation.
Should people stop saying blowjob and substitute oral sex because someone maybe has a bad experience from an event related to the word?
This, is freedom. Restricting other people, is not.
On August 14 2010 06:56 love1another wrote: So true. It's like the world is falling apart and we, the people who use these hurtful words, are the cause of that decadence!
That's what they said about rock n' roll back in the 70's.
This was JUST posted in another topic around 5 minutes ago... I don't find too much harm really with how it's said... I just can't see the harm, although I must admit I'm not a rape victim.
On August 14 2010 05:59 larjarse wrote: Open your brain folks. I'm sure this has already been said a thousand times, but reapers are baller at sniping buildings mid-late game. In and out expo rape.
This.
If the enemy is out of position, reapers RAAAAAAAPE.
On August 14 2010 05:59 larjarse wrote: Open your brain folks. I'm sure this has already been said a thousand times, but reapers are baller at sniping buildings mid-late game. In and out expo rape.
This.
If the enemy is out of position, reapers RAAAAAAAPE.
On August 14 2010 06:56 love1another wrote: So true. It's like the world is falling apart and we, the people who use these hurtful words, are the cause of that decadence!
That's what they said about rock n' roll back in the 70's.
That's what they said about copulation back when we are all asexual protists.
Games are about war. War has rape in it. And by rape I mean like "The Rape of Nanking" or however you spell it. Rape doesn't mean a penetration by sexual means, it can mean by combat. If you don't understand that there are mutliple meanigns for words, or that if you get offended by anything and everything I feel bad for you. I will continue to say rape in games, as I have never meant it in "I penetrated you sexually" because thats just homosexual, why would I want to rape some nerd? I mean it in I dominated you because of my skills and strategy way. I hate this politically correct idiocy where everyone is offended by everything. Its nearly impossible to be PC b/c of the new terms that keep chaning. Like retarded < special < mentally challenged and instead of disabled we have "differently abled". Its so stupid I refuse to perpetuate the name game cycle.
I don't think it's that big of a deal. The people that take offense to these words know the context that we use it in, and we as a society have made it different meanings. "The girl was raped" is different from "I raped that guy with a dt rush" Saying "That was a pretty gay move by dt rushing" is different from saying "I think that guy over there is gay". It's like cock fighting. It sounds dirty yea, because society made that into a dirty word, but we know that cock fight doesn't mean the dirty version of the word. Maybe the chickens take offense.
On August 14 2010 07:07 Ploppytheman wrote: Games are about war. War has rape in it. And by rape I mean like "The Rape of Nanking" or however you spell it. Rape doesn't mean a penetration by sexual means, it can mean by combat. If you don't understand that there are mutliple meanigns for words, or that if you get offended by anything and everything I feel bad for you. I will continue to say rape in games, as I have never meant it in "I penetrated you sexually" because thats just homosexual, why would I want to rape some nerd? I mean it in I dominated you because of my skills and strategy way. I hate this politically correct idiocy where everyone is offended by everything. Its nearly impossible to be PC b/c of the new terms that keep chaning. Like retarded < special < mentally challenged and instead of disabled we have "differently abled". Its so stupid I refuse to perpetuate the name game cycle.
Its not about predisposition dude wtf. Its like if i say "I raped u hard u fucking nigger!" and you just happen to be a afro american whos 12 year old daughter just got raped if you get offended thats just predisposed bias right? I didnt mean rape you know, i just meant "I destroyed your base hard u dumb player!' The word rape is disturbing on so many levels some can never understand. Think hard what it means. Think hard if you as a man would rather die or get forcefully ass fucked by two junkies or something. Use murder instead of rape then. Not to mention what that means to a woman.
I've wanted to comment on this in the past but I figured it would be a waste of time seeing as how most of the individuals who say these sorts of things are maladjusted and would react in a maladjusted way. But since there is already a thread I guess I will say my piece (and probably not read the replies, if any).
"Owned" makes you look lame enough, but "raped" is worse. I'm not offended when you say it. I just have contempt for you, that's all. Aside from it being an obnoxious word to use in that context, it has become such a symbol of online "I'm so edgy" nonsense that you instantly reveal yourself as a powerfully uninteresting person when you use it.
On August 14 2010 07:07 Ploppytheman wrote: Games are about war. War has rape in it. And by rape I mean like "The Rape of Nanking" or however you spell it. Rape doesn't mean a penetration by sexual means, it can mean by combat. If you don't understand that there are mutliple meanigns for words, or that if you get offended by anything and everything I feel bad for you. I will continue to say rape in games, as I have never meant it in "I penetrated you sexually" because thats just homosexual, why would I want to rape some nerd? I mean it in I dominated you because of my skills and strategy way. I hate this politically correct idiocy where everyone is offended by everything. Its nearly impossible to be PC b/c of the new terms that keep chaning. Like retarded < special < mentally challenged and instead of disabled we have "differently abled". Its so stupid I refuse to perpetuate the name game cycle.
I don't mind at all. I think as a non-native speaker it is much easier to adjust to how words are meant, instead of stopping to think about their original meaning. To me the word rape in the setting used has absolutely nothing to do anymore with the original meaning. I can understand people being bothered with it though.
On August 14 2010 07:08 sadyque wrote: Its not about predisposition dude wtf. Its like if i say "I raped u hard u fucking nigger!" and you just happen to be a afro american whos 12 year old daughter just got raped if you get offended thats just predisposed bias right? I didnt mean rape you know, i just meant "I destroyed your base hard u dumb player!' The word rape is disturbing on so many levels some can never understand. Think hard what it means. Think hard if you as a man would rather die or get forcefully ass fucked by two junkies or something. Use murder instead of rape then. Not to mention what that means to a woman.
Yeah but that's exactly why people choose to use "raped" instead of "murdered," is because "raped" seems so much worse. And people will always want to use the worse, more-loaded term to describe what Flash did to ZerO a couple weeks ago. I mean c'mon, we all saw what really happened to that kid.
rape /reɪp/ Show Spelled [reyp] Show IPA noun, verb, raped, rap·ing. –noun 1.the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse. 2.any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person. 3.statutory rape. 4.an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside. 5.Archaic . the act of seizing and carrying off by force.
I understand the idea is that some people are offended by the word, and reasonably so.
But why shouldn't gamers be allowed to use "rape" in the context that it's been growing in? Why should "rape" come to mean forceful sexual intercourse? Are we not allowed to use the word's other definitions? Even the ORIGINAL definition?
At first I was on the fence about this issue but I think I've come to decide that there's no reason to force a particular definition on any word. In the end it's up to the individual to decide what kind of word they want to use.
If you want to use the word, just be sure that you understand what sort of consequences there could be.
If you hear the word, just be sure that you understand the context it's being used in.
There needs to be understanding on both sides, so thanks for this thread.
On August 14 2010 07:07 Ploppytheman wrote: Games are about war. War has rape in it. And by rape I mean like "The Rape of Nanking" or however you spell it. Rape doesn't mean a penetration by sexual means, it can mean by combat. If you don't understand that there are mutliple meanigns for words, or that if you get offended by anything and everything I feel bad for you. I will continue to say rape in games, as I have never meant it in "I penetrated you sexually" because thats just homosexual, why would I want to rape some nerd? I mean it in I dominated you because of my skills and strategy way. I hate this politically correct idiocy where everyone is offended by everything. Its nearly impossible to be PC b/c of the new terms that keep chaning. Like retarded < special < mentally challenged and instead of disabled we have "differently abled". Its so stupid I refuse to perpetuate the name game cycle.
"Rape of Nanking" is probably not the best example you could have used there...
Yeh I know they raped people but that wasn't why the book was called Rape. This is how I learned that rape had a second meaning when I was like 10 or so.
Also I have this joke that I use a lot that I feel is relevant to this thread.
"I'm hella good at Halo, I rape all my friends. Then I beat them in Halo."
On August 14 2010 07:13 toadstool wrote: Let's take Merry Christmas and Santa Clause out of our culture and Starcraft 2 as well!
because ... God forbid...
Somebody might get offended!
We are not talking about somebody. We are talking about aprox 50% or something of the worlds population (women). Go ask your mother or your sister if she feels offended about you using the word rape repeatedly on the internetz. Then ask them if they have a problem with Santa Clause....
Edit: Also for everyone who quotes the dictionary for other meanings...pls cut the crap. When u say rape in Sc you mean forced sexual intercourse not pillage or some other crap.
The English language is constantly evolving, not always for the best, but it is. A word like "rape" shouldn't be offensive when used in the terms of owning someone etc in a videogame, because thats what that word means in that setting. Multiple other examples but whatever.
I understand what you're saying but the truth is that the word has a different meaning in this context. Think about the word gay. If something unusual happens its "gay" and by saying that I don't mean that that particular unusual thing happens to like other unusual things of the same gender. It's just an alternate meaning to the word. This is what happens in english, words develop multiple meanings, or are used in different ways without a hurtful intent.
I have a gay cousin and I love the kid but even he says things are gay. Sometimes you just have to disassociate the word from the it's other meanings.
On August 14 2010 07:13 toadstool wrote: Let's take Merry Christmas and Santa Clause out of our culture and Starcraft 2 as well!
because ... God forbid...
Somebody might get offended!
We are not talking about somebody. We are talking about aprox 50% or something of the worlds population (women). Go ask your mother or your sister if she feels offended about you using the word rape repeatedly on the internetz. Then ask them if they have a problem with Santa Clause....
So how do you think you handled that argument? Only women can get raped? I bet all the men who have been raped are offended by that statement.
Do you see what you are doing? By restricting other peoples use of words you are even offending people with your own words. There is nothing anybody can say that someone can't find offensive. Just stop trying to make people say things that YOU can tolerate.
maybe if i know my words will hurt someone apart from my idea that this person is "too sensitive", maybe i will think twice if the cost-benefit is worth it
On August 14 2010 07:23 PanN wrote: The English language is constantly evolving, not always for the best, but it is. A word like "rape" shouldn't be offensive when used in the terms of owning someone etc in a videogame, because thats what that word means in that setting. Multiple other examples but whatever.
On August 14 2010 07:21 sadyque wrote: Edit: Also for everyone who quotes the dictionary for other meanings...pls cut the crap. When u say rape in Sc you mean forced sexual intercourse not pillage or some other crap.
I am pretty much certain that if I said rape in bw I would never be referring to anything literally forcing sex upon anything else.
The whole idea of "offensive language" is retarded from the get go. (I bet "retarded" is offensive too?) You can be offended by anything. Stereotyping users of profanity or offensive language as "kids", "tragically depressing indicators of our decaying times", or uneducated, ignorant, or whatever, is completely hypocritical, and just a trip through your own list of prejudices.
In fact, the irony is that users of these "offensive" words, use them flippantly, hence, their usage should hardly offend anyone. They also rarely get offended when receiving the same. Because they know they're just harmless words. What exactly is the difference between "poop" and "shit"? Tell me. Why is one bad, and one isn't? What exactly is the difference between "fuck" and "sleep with"? What's really the difference between "rape" and "dominate"? Suppose I said, "I am going to forcibly penetrate you" to my opponent. Is that better or worse? What exactly is the value function that determines the offensiveness of a given string of words?
Somewhere along the line, somebody decided that they weren't going to tolerate some arbitrarily offensive language, and then they whipped up everyone else they could, to give shit to people who didn't respect their arbitrary set of rules. It's another nonsense threat that people use to gain control over how you behave. Let's face it here, if you are offended by a random person you don't know using a word in a completely different context in reference to another person you don't know, then this is quite clearly YOUR problem, and not theirs. Even the assertion that "your language is offensive and mine is not" is a self-absorbed notion buried deep in your own narrow-mindedness.
People mock and slander the things I hold dear on a daily basis. I am exposed to reminders of traumatic events, every damn day. And yet, I wouldn't have it any different.
As Penn and Teller put it "You do not have the right to not be offended". They've also run an excellent profanity episode, which I hope everyone has seen.
Now that's not to say that you should cuss out your grandma, or say "fuck" 42 times in a job interview, or intentionally incite anger in people, because often the rewards outweigh the sacrifice. But when you so choose to apply them, they don't have to like it, they don't have to be your friend, they don't have to hire you, but they damn well can't tell you any different.
On August 14 2010 07:21 sadyque wrote: Edit: Also for everyone who quotes the dictionary for other meanings...pls cut the crap. When u say rape in Sc you mean forced sexual intercourse not pillage or some other crap.
I am pretty much certain that if I said rape in bw I would never be referring to anything literally forcing sex upon anything else.
On August 14 2010 07:12 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I don't mind at all. I think as a non-native speaker it is much easier to adjust to how words are meant, instead of stopping to think about their original meaning. To me the word rape in the setting used has absolutely nothing to do anymore with the original meaning. I can understand people being bothered with it though.
Rape didn't originally have sexual connotation.
Personally, I see nothing wrong with using such words. Do you have a problem with expressions like "fuck" and "shit" as well?
The whole idea of "offensive language" is retarded from the get go. (I bet "retarded" is offensive too?) You can be offended by anything. Stereotyping users of profanity or offensive language as "kids", "tragically depressing indicators of our decaying times", or uneducated, ignorant, or whatever, is completely hypocritical, and just a trip through your own list of prejudices.
In fact, the irony is that users of these "offensive" words, use them flippantly, hence, their usage should hardly offend anyone. They also rarely get offended when receiving the same. Because they know they're just harmless words. What exactly is the difference between "poop" and "shit"? Tell me. Why is one bad, and one isn't? What exactly is the difference between "fuck" and "sleep with"? What's really the difference between "rape" and "dominate"? Suppose I said, "I am going to forcibly penetrate you" to my opponent. Is that better or worse? What exactly is the value function that determines the offensiveness of a given string of words?
Somewhere along the line, somebody decided that they weren't going to tolerate some arbitrarily offensive language, and then they whipped up everyone else they could, to give shit to people who didn't respect their arbitrary set of rules. It's another nonsense threat that people use to gain control over how you behave. Let's face it here, if you are offended by a random person you don't know using a word in a completely different context in reference to another person you don't know, then this is quite clearly YOUR problem, and not theirs. Even the assertion that "your language is offensive and mine is not" is a self-absorbed notion buried deep in your own narrow-mindedness.
People mock and slander the things I hold dear on a daily basis. I am exposed to reminders of traumatic events, every damn day. And yet, I wouldn't have it any different.
As Penn and Teller put it "You do not have the right to not be offended". They've also run an excellent profanity episode, which I hope everyone has seen.
The whole idea of "offensive language" is retarded from the get go. (I bet "retarded" is offensive too?) You can be offended by anything. Stereotyping users of profanity or offensive language as "kids", "tragically depressing indicators of our decaying times", or uneducated, ignorant, or whatever, is completely hypocritical, and just a trip through your own list of prejudices.
In fact, the irony is that users of these "offensive" words, use them flippantly, hence, their usage should hardly offend anyone. They also rarely get offended when receiving the same. Because they know they're just harmless words. What exactly is the difference between "poop" and "shit"? Tell me. Why is one bad, and one isn't? What exactly is the difference between "fuck" and "sleep with"? What's really the difference between "rape" and "dominate"? Suppose I said, "I am going to forcibly penetrate you" to my opponent. Is that better or worse? What exactly is the value function that determines the offensiveness of a given string of words?
Somewhere along the line, somebody decided that they weren't going to tolerate some arbitrarily offensive language, and then they whipped up everyone else they could, to give shit to people who didn't respect their arbitrary set of rules. It's another nonsense threat that people use to gain control over how you behave. Let's face it here, if you are offended by a random person you don't know using a word in a completely different context in reference to another person you don't know, then this is quite clearly YOUR problem, and not theirs. Even the assertion that "your language is offensive and mine is not" is a self-absorbed notion buried deep in your own narrow-mindedness.
People mock and slander the things I hold dear on a daily basis. I am exposed to reminders of traumatic events, every damn day. And yet, I wouldn't have it any different.
As Penn and Teller put it "You do not have the right to not be offended". They've also run an excellent profanity episode, which I hope everyone has seen.
On August 14 2010 07:21 sadyque wrote: Edit: Also for everyone who quotes the dictionary for other meanings...pls cut the crap. When u say rape in Sc you mean forced sexual intercourse not pillage or some other crap.
I am pretty much certain that if I said rape in bw I would never be referring to anything literally forcing sex upon anything else.
Then why is that song "DTs on top" a total sexual metaphor? By On Top they mean in the sexual sense. By tentacles up your asshole, they mean in the sexual sense. By feeling like Jaedong, they mean they feel like a Jade Dong, in the sexual sense. By 3-hatch mutas on the way, they mean "I have impregnated so many women that I'm like a hatchery causing all those women to spawn mutalisks from larvae" in a sexual sense.
On August 14 2010 07:13 toadstool wrote: Let's take Merry Christmas and Santa Clause out of our culture and Starcraft 2 as well!
because ... God forbid...
Somebody might get offended!
We are not talking about somebody. We are talking about aprox 50% or something of the worlds population (women). Go ask your mother or your sister if she feels offended about you using the word rape repeatedly on the internetz. Then ask them if they have a problem with Santa Clause....
So how do you think you handled that argument? Only women can get raped? I bet all the men who have been raped are offended by that statement.
Do you see what you are doing? By restricting other peoples use of words you are even offending people with your own words. There is nothing anybody can say that someone can't find offensive. Just stop trying to make people say things that YOU can tolerate.
Actually if you read a few posts above i mentioned man rape too... The point was to was the females in your family what they think about the word. I actually dont have any problems with words like gay, fag or whatever. Its just another word for homosexual. If some people are offended if called homosexuals thats another problem. And the point im trying to make its not about offense and how this can offend some1. Its about how it can make A LOT of people remember horrible situations and emotions.
Here's an excerpt from a book No One Owns You by Andrew Knight, which pretty much sums up how I feel about this:
"There is, in my opinion, nothing inherently wrong, vulgar, violent, or indecent about any language, including profanity. Words are just fucking words. Without doubt, they can be used (in conjunction with raised voices and aggressive body language) to intimidate and verbally abuse others. However, the mere use of these words to communicate is not, per se, violent. So what might a Libertarian say about a hypersensitive Puritan woman who is stuck in the same room with a man who honed his vocabulary in a federal penitentiary? Assume that the man has no intention of being violent but, in speaking naturally, discusses things the Puritan finds acutely objectionable and in a language that makes her want to squeal in disgust.
Let’s make no mistake: the Puritan experiences emotional trauma by the man’s words. In some metaphysical sense, the man’s nonviolent words are causing her pain, but only in conjunction with her hypersensitivity. Who is to blame and what should be done to alleviate the pain?
First, to assign blame here is to assume that someone is acting wrongly. I suggest that neither is wrong. The Puritan woman is merely reacting according to her pre-programming and emotional conditioning, and so is the man. In other words, they are both merely being themselves. Because the man is not being offensively violent to the woman, and also because he is not intending to harm her, the woman has no right to use violence against him in defense. Without an offense, there is no defense. Libertarianism respects the right of every person to be himself and to act, speak, and live freely to the extent that he does not violate the rights of others. The woman’s rights to life, liberty, and property have not been abrogated by the man’s choice of words.
To assert that neither is to blame and that no offensive attack has occurred is not to invalidate the woman’s feelings. Indeed, she does feel pain (of discomfort, at the very least) and she is not to blame for having these feelings. However, she is responsible for them. She must be held accountable for the ease with which she feels pain. A hypersensitive person cannot expect the world’s inhabitants to tiptoe around her in constant fear that she will be disturbed by the sounds of their footfall. People are people. Sometimes they’re loud. Sometimes they’re obnoxious. Sometimes they get in our way. But we share this tiny planet with several billion of them. To require every person to conform to our individual standards of comfort or morality would be chaotic as there are several billion such standards – one for each person. But to let people be themselves, to accept and understand even if we don’t agree – that is the recipe for peace and tranquility. Therefore, in my opinion, it is the woman’s responsibility to either leave the room or to learn to accept the man for who he is. The woman’s pain – a very real and understandable pain – is nonetheless her problem, not his. To hold otherwise would be to allow the world to be controlled by the most hypersensitive people. I say: let them be sensitive. Let them take offense. Let them be perpetually annoyed, bothered, angry, and judgemental. In the meanwhile, I’ll continue to be the free, unhindered, joyful child that I am. In the meanwhile, I’ll continue to live without artificial constraints, respecting the rights of others to live freely, and with little concern as to who may find me offensive, rude, or socially inept. To require every person to stay in his own space, to tread lightly, to speak softly, to conform to the hypersensitive person’s arbitrary standards and notions of decency is to blame every person for his very existence. Humans are creatures of nature. Neither the Victorian Era nor the Industrial Revolution changed the fact that we are all, fundamentally, children. Children are loud, cantankerous, silly, rude animals and they neither understand nor fully obey societal rules. On the other hand, to set a very high threshold for discomfort – to let the people around you be themselves without your resorting to anger, judgement, or criticism – is one of the kindest gifts you can bestow on the world. You can meaningfully contribute to humanity by accepting others as they are and decreasing your sensitivity to their differing opinions and ways of life.
The Puritan woman need not like the man, nor is she required to engage in conversation with him. But he has not offensively attacked her and, therefore, she has no defensive recourse. She has three options: a) continue to experience pain; b) leave the room; or c) learn to accept the man as he is, reduce her sensitivities, and increase her pain threshold. Of course, option a) seems unwise and option b) will doom the woman to isolation and loneliness. After all, we’ve all known lonely elderly folks stuck in retirement homes whom few will visit for fear of their judgements, hypersensitivity, and manipulation. Arguably, the woman’s best option is c): she has the power to accept the man as he is. She need not feel pain when surrounded by people who look differently, speak differently, and have different priorities than she does.
I believe that it is every person’s responsibility, both for his own happiness as well as that of the world’s populace, to shed his sensitivities and artificial dictates about how others “should” act, speak, dress, and live. The Puritan woman may feel a very real discomfort to which we can all empathize, but that is her problem to solve. To allow her to push her insecurities and discomforts on others is to allow the world to be ruled by fear, prejudice, hatred, and the psychological constraints imposed by cowards."
Oh come on, it's just slang. Nothing to get worked up about. It's just like using the word "gay" negatively. Homosexuals and females are a minority in the gaming community so nothing will change anyway.
On August 14 2010 07:23 PanN wrote: The English language is constantly evolving, not always for the best, but it is. A word like "rape" shouldn't be offensive when used in the terms of owning someone etc in a videogame, because thats what that word means in that setting. Multiple other examples but whatever.
This.
I can understand this argument, but why don't sports casters ever use words like retarded or gay? Are gamers less mature than sports fans? No, but the word was able to slip by because of the low restrictions we've had on online speech.
I doubt we can remove words like "gay" used as "stupid" from everyday vernacular, but commentators at least, should not use them.
Anyways, I find how this thread has grown kind of sad too, I'd rather some more entertaining thread were growing like this. I liked coming by TL to chill.
On August 14 2010 06:22 Ploppytheman wrote: Rape has more than one meaning. Stop crying you PoS liberal PC nazi.
Not to be as harsh as this man, but I agree with the sentiment running through the thread that words can have multiple meanings. Also, I think that it is one thing to be conscientious, but where do you draw the line? If there's no intent to cause harm, it's a bit absurd to hold that person liable (in regard to language).
TlDr: It is not impolite to use rape to describe something in a gaming context.
I mean, if someone has another word that can successfully connote how I got my soul ripped out of me, totally dominated by a stronger force over my weak trembling body, and violated in every way the first time I was killed with mass voidrays on Metalopolis I will gladly use it.
On August 14 2010 07:31 johnlee wrote: Here's an excerpt from a book No One Owns You by Andrew Knight, which pretty much sums up how I feel about this: + Show Spoiler +
"There is, in my opinion, nothing inherently wrong, vulgar, violent, or indecent about any language, including profanity. Words are just fucking words. Without doubt, they can be used (in conjunction with raised voices and aggressive body language) to intimidate and verbally abuse others. However, the mere use of these words to communicate is not, per se, violent. So what might a Libertarian say about a hypersensitive Puritan woman who is stuck in the same room with a man who honed his vocabulary in a federal penitentiary? Assume that the man has no intention of being violent but, in speaking naturally, discusses things the Puritan finds acutely objectionable and in a language that makes her want to squeal in disgust.
Let’s make no mistake: the Puritan experiences emotional trauma by the man’s words. In some metaphysical sense, the man’s nonviolent words are causing her pain, but only in conjunction with her hypersensitivity. Who is to blame and what should be done to alleviate the pain?
First, to assign blame here is to assume that someone is acting wrongly. I suggest that neither is wrong. The Puritan woman is merely reacting according to her pre-programming and emotional conditioning, and so is the man. In other words, they are both merely being themselves. Because the man is not being offensively violent to the woman, and also because he is not intending to harm her, the woman has no right to use violence against him in defense. Without an offense, there is no defense. Libertarianism respects the right of every person to be himself and to act, speak, and live freely to the extent that he does not violate the rights of others. The woman’s rights to life, liberty, and property have not been abrogated by the man’s choice of words.
To assert that neither is to blame and that no offensive attack has occurred is not to invalidate the woman’s feelings. Indeed, she does feel pain (of discomfort, at the very least) and she is not to blame for having these feelings. However, she is responsible for them. She must be held accountable for the ease with which she feels pain. A hypersensitive person cannot expect the world’s inhabitants to tiptoe around her in constant fear that she will be disturbed by the sounds of their footfall. People are people. Sometimes they’re loud. Sometimes they’re obnoxious. Sometimes they get in our way. But we share this tiny planet with several billion of them. To require every person to conform to our individual standards of comfort or morality would be chaotic as there are several billion such standards – one for each person. But to let people be themselves, to accept and understand even if we don’t agree – that is the recipe for peace and tranquility. Therefore, in my opinion, it is the woman’s responsibility to either leave the room or to learn to accept the man for who he is. The woman’s pain – a very real and understandable pain – is nonetheless her problem, not his. To hold otherwise would be to allow the world to be controlled by the most hypersensitive people. I say: let them be sensitive. Let them take offense. Let them be perpetually annoyed, bothered, angry, and judgemental. In the meanwhile, I’ll continue to be the free, unhindered, joyful child that I am. In the meanwhile, I’ll continue to live without artificial constraints, respecting the rights of others to live freely, and with little concern as to who may find me offensive, rude, or socially inept. To require every person to stay in his own space, to tread lightly, to speak softly, to conform to the hypersensitive person’s arbitrary standards and notions of decency is to blame every person for his very existence. Humans are creatures of nature. Neither the Victorian Era nor the Industrial Revolution changed the fact that we are all, fundamentally, children. Children are loud, cantankerous, silly, rude animals and they neither understand nor fully obey societal rules. On the other hand, to set a very high threshold for discomfort – to let the people around you be themselves without your resorting to anger, judgement, or criticism – is one of the kindest gifts you can bestow on the world. You can meaningfully contribute to humanity by accepting others as they are and decreasing your sensitivity to their differing opinions and ways of life.
The Puritan woman need not like the man, nor is she required to engage in conversation with him. But he has not offensively attacked her and, therefore, she has no defensive recourse. She has three options: a) continue to experience pain; b) leave the room; or c) learn to accept the man as he is, reduce her sensitivities, and increase her pain threshold. Of course, option a) seems unwise and option b) will doom the woman to isolation and loneliness. After all, we’ve all known lonely elderly folks stuck in retirement homes whom few will visit for fear of their judgements, hypersensitivity, and manipulation. Arguably, the woman’s best option is c): she has the power to accept the man as he is. She need not feel pain when surrounded by people who look differently, speak differently, and have different priorities than she does.
I believe that it is every person’s responsibility, both for his own happiness as well as that of the world’s populace, to shed his sensitivities and artificial dictates about how others “should” act, speak, dress, and live. The Puritan woman may feel a very real discomfort to which we can all empathize, but that is her problem to solve. To allow her to push her insecurities and discomforts on others is to allow the world to be ruled by fear, prejudice, hatred, and the psychological constraints imposed by cowards."
Erm so your point is that if we allow a woman who was raped to have a problem with that then we " allow her to push her insecurities and discomforts on others is to allow the world to be ruled by fear, prejudice, hatred, and the psychological constraints imposed by cowards"+ Show Spoiler +
There are lots of "emotionally charged words" if you go by what you say. How about: Abuse Harass Stalk anything violent related Own anything race related, including words like Black (which was censored during beta btw)
You can go and censor anything that might have ever done people discomfort, or you can just realize that they're only words and people having a mental trigger on a word need help.
lightman Well I guess shit like this happens all the time.
My girlfriend got raped, doesn't matter the circumstances the fact is that, and when she told it to me I really listened her very calmy, of course my first reaction was anger and well you know, "I'm going to find the sucker and kill him even if the world cracks down", but now I'm pretty calm and I think things like "then what?, will that really ease and remove the pain and suffering she's going through, and return happiness to her life?. It will not".
Response:
My only question is...
What map was it on?
Yeah, I guess you guys are right. That was a really funny joke and the positive response it received in the thread in question was totally great and speaks very highly of our community.
Just a small illustration of the REAL attitudes that our lexicon creates. That's the last i'll post in the thread.
On August 14 2010 07:23 PanN wrote: The English language is constantly evolving, not always for the best, but it is. A word like "rape" shouldn't be offensive when used in the terms of owning someone etc in a videogame, because thats what that word means in that setting. Multiple other examples but whatever.
This.
I can understand this argument, but why don't sports casters ever use words like retarded or gay? Are gamers less mature than sports fans? No, but the word was able to slip by because of the low restrictions we've had on online speech.
I doubt we can remove words like "gay" used as "stupid" from everyday vernacular, but commentators at least, should not use them.
Anyways, I find how this thread has grown kind of sad too, I'd rather some more entertaining thread were growing like this. I liked coming by TL to chill.
Sports casters don't cuss or say anything offensive because they have to appeal to a larger audience, for the sake of $$$ and sponsors, and also they have to deal with the FCC. I'm fine with casters doing this if they want to get large sponsors and go pro (in fact I would recommend it). However, a lot of us are basically the internet version of guys hanging out with beers and watching a game. And lets not pretend that some fucked up shit doesn't come out of your mouth during those times.
On August 14 2010 06:33 thatdontmakecent wrote: + Show Spoiler +
Thank you thank you thank you OP. I have been trying to formulate the words for this for so long. I understand that 'rape' is embedded in gaming culture, but just think how it sounds to the outside world. Gaming and gamers will continue to garner an adolescent (and horridly immature) reputation if we insist on defending the use of word like this. YOU don't think it's a big deal. I get it. It is. So stop. It's a small change with a hugely positive impact. You can't know how it affects people if it hasn't happened to you, so by saying it you are speaking out of ignorance, and then defending our own ignorance. It sounds moronic. Consider yourself lucky you don't know what it's like, and defer to the people who are asking you to stop. Being competitive is one thing, being grossly macho and sophomoric is something else.
If you disagree, ok. But think about it? Please?
Great post OP.
What would you do if those words offended someone? Sophomore is just someone in second year of high school. By yours and the OP's argument you must adhere to my sentiment of, let's make up a common story, being picked on by the seniors for being a sophomore. I was bullied and picked on and physically abused, and you using that word makes me feel terrible.
How do you feel about that logic? Are you enticed to cater to my wishes because you had a different meaning, as well as different aim in your statement?
I'm not going to get dragged into a flame war with you. Look up the word sophomoric, it means more than just being a sophomore in high school. The words I used describe how we look when we use words line that. We look immature. It isn't asking much to stop using a horrible word. You will make whatever decisions you want, I'm just asking you to think about how it looks when we use words like that.
The whole idea of "offensive language" is retarded from the get go. (I bet "retarded" is offensive too?) You can be offended by anything. Stereotyping users of profanity or offensive language as "kids", "tragically depressing indicators of our decaying times", or uneducated, ignorant, or whatever, is completely hypocritical, and just a trip through your own list of prejudices.
In fact, the irony is that users of these "offensive" words, use them flippantly, hence, their usage should hardly offend anyone. They also rarely get offended when receiving the same. Because they know they're just harmless words. What exactly is the difference between "poop" and "shit"? Tell me. Why is one bad, and one isn't? What exactly is the difference between "fuck" and "sleep with"? What's really the difference between "rape" and "dominate"? Suppose I said, "I am going to forcibly penetrate you" to my opponent. Is that better or worse? What exactly is the value function that determines the offensiveness of a given string of words?
Somewhere along the line, somebody decided that they weren't going to tolerate some arbitrarily offensive language, and then they whipped up everyone else they could, to give shit to people who didn't respect their arbitrary set of rules. It's another nonsense threat that people use to gain control over how you behave. Let's face it here, if you are offended by a random person you don't know using a word in a completely different context in reference to another person you don't know, then this is quite clearly YOUR problem, and not theirs. Even the assertion that "your language is offensive and mine is not" is a self-absorbed notion buried deep in your own narrow-mindedness.
People mock and slander the things I hold dear on a daily basis. I am exposed to reminders of traumatic events, every damn day. And yet, I wouldn't have it any different.
As Penn and Teller put it "You do not have the right to not be offended". They've also run an excellent profanity episode, which I hope everyone has seen.
Now that's not to say that you should cuss out your grandma, or say "fuck" 42 times in a job interview, or intentionally incite anger in people, because often the rewards outweigh the sacrifice. But when you so choose to apply them, they don't have to like it, they don't have to be your friend, they don't have to hire you, but they damn well can't tell you any different.
You seem really determined to offend others. Avoiding the use of the words "rape," "retard," "fag," etc. in inappropriate contexts is not an incredibly difficult thing to do.
On August 14 2010 07:23 PanN wrote: The English language is constantly evolving, not always for the best, but it is. A word like "rape" shouldn't be offensive when used in the terms of owning someone etc in a videogame, because thats what that word means in that setting. Multiple other examples but whatever.
This.
I can understand this argument, but why don't sports casters ever use words like retarded or gay? Are gamers less mature than sports fans? No, but the word was able to slip by because of the low restrictions we've had on online speech.
I doubt we can remove words like "gay" used as "stupid" from everyday vernacular, but commentators at least, should not use them.
Anyways, I find how this thread has grown kind of sad too, I'd rather some more entertaining thread were growing like this. I liked coming by TL to chill.
Guess you missed my posts because I already addressed this. A simple search should suffice.
On August 14 2010 07:31 johnlee wrote: Here's an excerpt from a book No One Owns You by Andrew Knight, which pretty much sums up how I feel about this: + Show Spoiler +
"There is, in my opinion, nothing inherently wrong, vulgar, violent, or indecent about any language, including profanity. Words are just fucking words. Without doubt, they can be used (in conjunction with raised voices and aggressive body language) to intimidate and verbally abuse others. However, the mere use of these words to communicate is not, per se, violent. So what might a Libertarian say about a hypersensitive Puritan woman who is stuck in the same room with a man who honed his vocabulary in a federal penitentiary? Assume that the man has no intention of being violent but, in speaking naturally, discusses things the Puritan finds acutely objectionable and in a language that makes her want to squeal in disgust.
Let’s make no mistake: the Puritan experiences emotional trauma by the man’s words. In some metaphysical sense, the man’s nonviolent words are causing her pain, but only in conjunction with her hypersensitivity. Who is to blame and what should be done to alleviate the pain?
First, to assign blame here is to assume that someone is acting wrongly. I suggest that neither is wrong. The Puritan woman is merely reacting according to her pre-programming and emotional conditioning, and so is the man. In other words, they are both merely being themselves. Because the man is not being offensively violent to the woman, and also because he is not intending to harm her, the woman has no right to use violence against him in defense. Without an offense, there is no defense. Libertarianism respects the right of every person to be himself and to act, speak, and live freely to the extent that he does not violate the rights of others. The woman’s rights to life, liberty, and property have not been abrogated by the man’s choice of words.
To assert that neither is to blame and that no offensive attack has occurred is not to invalidate the woman’s feelings. Indeed, she does feel pain (of discomfort, at the very least) and she is not to blame for having these feelings. However, she is responsible for them. She must be held accountable for the ease with which she feels pain. A hypersensitive person cannot expect the world’s inhabitants to tiptoe around her in constant fear that she will be disturbed by the sounds of their footfall. People are people. Sometimes they’re loud. Sometimes they’re obnoxious. Sometimes they get in our way. But we share this tiny planet with several billion of them. To require every person to conform to our individual standards of comfort or morality would be chaotic as there are several billion such standards – one for each person. But to let people be themselves, to accept and understand even if we don’t agree – that is the recipe for peace and tranquility. Therefore, in my opinion, it is the woman’s responsibility to either leave the room or to learn to accept the man for who he is. The woman’s pain – a very real and understandable pain – is nonetheless her problem, not his. To hold otherwise would be to allow the world to be controlled by the most hypersensitive people. I say: let them be sensitive. Let them take offense. Let them be perpetually annoyed, bothered, angry, and judgemental. In the meanwhile, I’ll continue to be the free, unhindered, joyful child that I am. In the meanwhile, I’ll continue to live without artificial constraints, respecting the rights of others to live freely, and with little concern as to who may find me offensive, rude, or socially inept. To require every person to stay in his own space, to tread lightly, to speak softly, to conform to the hypersensitive person’s arbitrary standards and notions of decency is to blame every person for his very existence. Humans are creatures of nature. Neither the Victorian Era nor the Industrial Revolution changed the fact that we are all, fundamentally, children. Children are loud, cantankerous, silly, rude animals and they neither understand nor fully obey societal rules. On the other hand, to set a very high threshold for discomfort – to let the people around you be themselves without your resorting to anger, judgement, or criticism – is one of the kindest gifts you can bestow on the world. You can meaningfully contribute to humanity by accepting others as they are and decreasing your sensitivity to their differing opinions and ways of life.
The Puritan woman need not like the man, nor is she required to engage in conversation with him. But he has not offensively attacked her and, therefore, she has no defensive recourse. She has three options: a) continue to experience pain; b) leave the room; or c) learn to accept the man as he is, reduce her sensitivities, and increase her pain threshold. Of course, option a) seems unwise and option b) will doom the woman to isolation and loneliness. After all, we’ve all known lonely elderly folks stuck in retirement homes whom few will visit for fear of their judgements, hypersensitivity, and manipulation. Arguably, the woman’s best option is c): she has the power to accept the man as he is. She need not feel pain when surrounded by people who look differently, speak differently, and have different priorities than she does.
I believe that it is every person’s responsibility, both for his own happiness as well as that of the world’s populace, to shed his sensitivities and artificial dictates about how others “should” act, speak, dress, and live. The Puritan woman may feel a very real discomfort to which we can all empathize, but that is her problem to solve. To allow her to push her insecurities and discomforts on others is to allow the world to be ruled by fear, prejudice, hatred, and the psychological constraints imposed by cowards."
Erm so your point is that if we allow a woman who was raped to have a problem with that then we " allow her to push her insecurities and discomforts on others is to allow the world to be ruled by fear, prejudice, hatred, and the psychological constraints imposed by cowards"+ Show Spoiler +
Yep. If we let a woman who was raped push onto us HER issues with the way WE use the word, then we definitely a problem. I'm not okay-ing the fact that woman was raped. I'm saying that the fact that she is trying to use her rape experiences (which was clearly unfortunate) to disallow a gaming community or anything else for that matter from using the word, is wrong when it's clear that we are not using the word rape in the sense that she experienced.
the reason gamers are prone to say rape, faggot, and even N****r, is because we are too desensitized to common profanity. If some zerg 6pooled you, and you went into a rage and said "FUCK YOU FUCKER" It just doesnt have any meaning behind, so people go on to use things that are stronger... but since "fuck" IS the strongest word, you then have to move onto something borderline risky. Like faggot, which pushes some peoples buttons... some people use rape. which pushes more peoples button, and then some people even use racist slurs... not because they are racist, but because its the only words they can say that cause people to say "oh my god he just called me a ____!"
But shooting someone in the face with an AK47 is not cool neither. For me it is more wrong to play CS were you have to kill your opponent, than using the word rape. When I say "Oh shit", I'm not really talking about fecal matter.
Same deal.
That's why I got raped by a C+ player this afternoon, but I don't pllay Counter Strike or any FPS, that I find purely shocking.
Starcraft is an other deal since you are not impersonating (if that means anything at all, I'm sure you understand) your marines and your hydralisks (preventing counter argument coming.)
On August 14 2010 07:31 johnlee wrote: Here's an excerpt from a book No One Owns You by Andrew Knight, which pretty much sums up how I feel about this: + Show Spoiler +
"There is, in my opinion, nothing inherently wrong, vulgar, violent, or indecent about any language, including profanity. Words are just fucking words. Without doubt, they can be used (in conjunction with raised voices and aggressive body language) to intimidate and verbally abuse others. However, the mere use of these words to communicate is not, per se, violent. So what might a Libertarian say about a hypersensitive Puritan woman who is stuck in the same room with a man who honed his vocabulary in a federal penitentiary? Assume that the man has no intention of being violent but, in speaking naturally, discusses things the Puritan finds acutely objectionable and in a language that makes her want to squeal in disgust.
Let’s make no mistake: the Puritan experiences emotional trauma by the man’s words. In some metaphysical sense, the man’s nonviolent words are causing her pain, but only in conjunction with her hypersensitivity. Who is to blame and what should be done to alleviate the pain?
First, to assign blame here is to assume that someone is acting wrongly. I suggest that neither is wrong. The Puritan woman is merely reacting according to her pre-programming and emotional conditioning, and so is the man. In other words, they are both merely being themselves. Because the man is not being offensively violent to the woman, and also because he is not intending to harm her, the woman has no right to use violence against him in defense. Without an offense, there is no defense. Libertarianism respects the right of every person to be himself and to act, speak, and live freely to the extent that he does not violate the rights of others. The woman’s rights to life, liberty, and property have not been abrogated by the man’s choice of words.
To assert that neither is to blame and that no offensive attack has occurred is not to invalidate the woman’s feelings. Indeed, she does feel pain (of discomfort, at the very least) and she is not to blame for having these feelings. However, she is responsible for them. She must be held accountable for the ease with which she feels pain. A hypersensitive person cannot expect the world’s inhabitants to tiptoe around her in constant fear that she will be disturbed by the sounds of their footfall. People are people. Sometimes they’re loud. Sometimes they’re obnoxious. Sometimes they get in our way. But we share this tiny planet with several billion of them. To require every person to conform to our individual standards of comfort or morality would be chaotic as there are several billion such standards – one for each person. But to let people be themselves, to accept and understand even if we don’t agree – that is the recipe for peace and tranquility. Therefore, in my opinion, it is the woman’s responsibility to either leave the room or to learn to accept the man for who he is. The woman’s pain – a very real and understandable pain – is nonetheless her problem, not his. To hold otherwise would be to allow the world to be controlled by the most hypersensitive people. I say: let them be sensitive. Let them take offense. Let them be perpetually annoyed, bothered, angry, and judgemental. In the meanwhile, I’ll continue to be the free, unhindered, joyful child that I am. In the meanwhile, I’ll continue to live without artificial constraints, respecting the rights of others to live freely, and with little concern as to who may find me offensive, rude, or socially inept. To require every person to stay in his own space, to tread lightly, to speak softly, to conform to the hypersensitive person’s arbitrary standards and notions of decency is to blame every person for his very existence. Humans are creatures of nature. Neither the Victorian Era nor the Industrial Revolution changed the fact that we are all, fundamentally, children. Children are loud, cantankerous, silly, rude animals and they neither understand nor fully obey societal rules. On the other hand, to set a very high threshold for discomfort – to let the people around you be themselves without your resorting to anger, judgement, or criticism – is one of the kindest gifts you can bestow on the world. You can meaningfully contribute to humanity by accepting others as they are and decreasing your sensitivity to their differing opinions and ways of life.
The Puritan woman need not like the man, nor is she required to engage in conversation with him. But he has not offensively attacked her and, therefore, she has no defensive recourse. She has three options: a) continue to experience pain; b) leave the room; or c) learn to accept the man as he is, reduce her sensitivities, and increase her pain threshold. Of course, option a) seems unwise and option b) will doom the woman to isolation and loneliness. After all, we’ve all known lonely elderly folks stuck in retirement homes whom few will visit for fear of their judgements, hypersensitivity, and manipulation. Arguably, the woman’s best option is c): she has the power to accept the man as he is. She need not feel pain when surrounded by people who look differently, speak differently, and have different priorities than she does.
I believe that it is every person’s responsibility, both for his own happiness as well as that of the world’s populace, to shed his sensitivities and artificial dictates about how others “should” act, speak, dress, and live. The Puritan woman may feel a very real discomfort to which we can all empathize, but that is her problem to solve. To allow her to push her insecurities and discomforts on others is to allow the world to be ruled by fear, prejudice, hatred, and the psychological constraints imposed by cowards."
Erm so your point is that if we allow a woman who was raped to have a problem with that then we " allow her to push her insecurities and discomforts on others is to allow the world to be ruled by fear, prejudice, hatred, and the psychological constraints imposed by cowards"+ Show Spoiler +
Yep. If we let a woman who was raped push onto us HER issues with the way WE use the word, then we definitely a problem. I'm not okay-ing the fact that woman was raped. I'm saying that the fact that she is trying to use her rape experiences (which was clearly unfortunate) to disallow a gaming community or anything else for that matter from using the word, is wrong when it's clear that we are not using the word rape in the sense that she experienced.
It's as simple as that.
Would it be incorrect to sum up your views as "I don't care one iota about you, deal with it"?
I think we should care about these people and not use offensive words. I don't get why such a tiny thing that could make so many people hurt less is being resisted so much.
On August 14 2010 07:31 johnlee wrote: Here's an excerpt from a book No One Owns You by Andrew Knight, which pretty much sums up how I feel about this: + Show Spoiler +
"There is, in my opinion, nothing inherently wrong, vulgar, violent, or indecent about any language, including profanity. Words are just fucking words. Without doubt, they can be used (in conjunction with raised voices and aggressive body language) to intimidate and verbally abuse others. However, the mere use of these words to communicate is not, per se, violent. So what might a Libertarian say about a hypersensitive Puritan woman who is stuck in the same room with a man who honed his vocabulary in a federal penitentiary? Assume that the man has no intention of being violent but, in speaking naturally, discusses things the Puritan finds acutely objectionable and in a language that makes her want to squeal in disgust.
Let’s make no mistake: the Puritan experiences emotional trauma by the man’s words. In some metaphysical sense, the man’s nonviolent words are causing her pain, but only in conjunction with her hypersensitivity. Who is to blame and what should be done to alleviate the pain?
First, to assign blame here is to assume that someone is acting wrongly. I suggest that neither is wrong. The Puritan woman is merely reacting according to her pre-programming and emotional conditioning, and so is the man. In other words, they are both merely being themselves. Because the man is not being offensively violent to the woman, and also because he is not intending to harm her, the woman has no right to use violence against him in defense. Without an offense, there is no defense. Libertarianism respects the right of every person to be himself and to act, speak, and live freely to the extent that he does not violate the rights of others. The woman’s rights to life, liberty, and property have not been abrogated by the man’s choice of words.
To assert that neither is to blame and that no offensive attack has occurred is not to invalidate the woman’s feelings. Indeed, she does feel pain (of discomfort, at the very least) and she is not to blame for having these feelings. However, she is responsible for them. She must be held accountable for the ease with which she feels pain. A hypersensitive person cannot expect the world’s inhabitants to tiptoe around her in constant fear that she will be disturbed by the sounds of their footfall. People are people. Sometimes they’re loud. Sometimes they’re obnoxious. Sometimes they get in our way. But we share this tiny planet with several billion of them. To require every person to conform to our individual standards of comfort or morality would be chaotic as there are several billion such standards – one for each person. But to let people be themselves, to accept and understand even if we don’t agree – that is the recipe for peace and tranquility. Therefore, in my opinion, it is the woman’s responsibility to either leave the room or to learn to accept the man for who he is. The woman’s pain – a very real and understandable pain – is nonetheless her problem, not his. To hold otherwise would be to allow the world to be controlled by the most hypersensitive people. I say: let them be sensitive. Let them take offense. Let them be perpetually annoyed, bothered, angry, and judgemental. In the meanwhile, I’ll continue to be the free, unhindered, joyful child that I am. In the meanwhile, I’ll continue to live without artificial constraints, respecting the rights of others to live freely, and with little concern as to who may find me offensive, rude, or socially inept. To require every person to stay in his own space, to tread lightly, to speak softly, to conform to the hypersensitive person’s arbitrary standards and notions of decency is to blame every person for his very existence. Humans are creatures of nature. Neither the Victorian Era nor the Industrial Revolution changed the fact that we are all, fundamentally, children. Children are loud, cantankerous, silly, rude animals and they neither understand nor fully obey societal rules. On the other hand, to set a very high threshold for discomfort – to let the people around you be themselves without your resorting to anger, judgement, or criticism – is one of the kindest gifts you can bestow on the world. You can meaningfully contribute to humanity by accepting others as they are and decreasing your sensitivity to their differing opinions and ways of life.
The Puritan woman need not like the man, nor is she required to engage in conversation with him. But he has not offensively attacked her and, therefore, she has no defensive recourse. She has three options: a) continue to experience pain; b) leave the room; or c) learn to accept the man as he is, reduce her sensitivities, and increase her pain threshold. Of course, option a) seems unwise and option b) will doom the woman to isolation and loneliness. After all, we’ve all known lonely elderly folks stuck in retirement homes whom few will visit for fear of their judgements, hypersensitivity, and manipulation. Arguably, the woman’s best option is c): she has the power to accept the man as he is. She need not feel pain when surrounded by people who look differently, speak differently, and have different priorities than she does.
I believe that it is every person’s responsibility, both for his own happiness as well as that of the world’s populace, to shed his sensitivities and artificial dictates about how others “should” act, speak, dress, and live. The Puritan woman may feel a very real discomfort to which we can all empathize, but that is her problem to solve. To allow her to push her insecurities and discomforts on others is to allow the world to be ruled by fear, prejudice, hatred, and the psychological constraints imposed by cowards."
Erm so your point is that if we allow a woman who was raped to have a problem with that then we " allow her to push her insecurities and discomforts on others is to allow the world to be ruled by fear, prejudice, hatred, and the psychological constraints imposed by cowards"+ Show Spoiler +
Yep. If we let a woman who was raped push onto us HER issues with the way WE use the word, then we definitely a problem. I'm not okay-ing the fact that woman was raped. I'm saying that the fact that she is trying to use her rape experiences (which was clearly unfortunate) to disallow a gaming community or anything else for that matter from using the word, is wrong when it's clear that we are not using the word rape in the sense that she experienced.
It's as simple as that.
Would it be incorrect to sum up your views as "I don't care one iota about you, deal with it"?
I think it would be better stated 'if I'm not intentionally insulting you, get over it'
On August 14 2010 07:23 PanN wrote: The English language is constantly evolving, not always for the best, but it is. A word like "rape" shouldn't be offensive when used in the terms of owning someone etc in a videogame, because thats what that word means in that setting. Multiple other examples but whatever.
This.
I can understand this argument, but why don't sports casters ever use words like retarded or gay? Are gamers less mature than sports fans? No, but the word was able to slip by because of the low restrictions we've had on online speech.
I doubt we can remove words like "gay" used as "stupid" from everyday vernacular, but commentators at least, should not use them.
Anyways, I find how this thread has grown kind of sad too, I'd rather some more entertaining thread were growing like this. I liked coming by TL to chill.
We don't use the word gay because there is nothing wrong about being gay.
We use the word rape because you are still talking about something really nasty which happens to somebody.
Same way that when you say "shit" you use something which has a very negative connotation already. If you were saying "Oh, Jew!" when something nasty happens to you, I would find it pretty shocking.
This is an incredibly emotive issue, and as this thread has proven everyone has an opinion on it. I just wanted to throw in my two cents.
We all agree that the use of the word 'rape' is hurtful and offensive to a fairly broad selection of our society. People defending the word seem to be saying 'It's a different context, a different meaning. If they understood that then they wouldn't be offended'.
I'm not so sure they wouldn't be offended after you explained it and that you have to explain it in the first place says there is an issue.
In the end, if you think using the word in this way is completely inoffensive, call your Mum. Call her right now and say the following: "Hey Mum! I was playing Starcraft 2 and just totally raped the shit out of some random dude! Raped him up and down the map. The most brutal, brutal rape ever witnessed in the history of internet gaming".
Actually lets imagine your opponent had been a girl and for whatever reason you had known that. Imagine saying the above but replace 'him' with 'her'. It's completely inoffensive, has a totally different context right? Doesn't even mean the same thing at all ... but it is not ok to say it. My view
On August 14 2010 07:23 PanN wrote: The English language is constantly evolving, not always for the best, but it is. A word like "rape" shouldn't be offensive when used in the terms of owning someone etc in a videogame, because thats what that word means in that setting. Multiple other examples but whatever.
This.
I can understand this argument, but why don't sports casters ever use words like retarded or gay? Are gamers less mature than sports fans? No, but the word was able to slip by because of the low restrictions we've had on online speech.
I doubt we can remove words like "gay" used as "stupid" from everyday vernacular, but commentators at least, should not use them.
Anyways, I find how this thread has grown kind of sad too, I'd rather some more entertaining thread were growing like this. I liked coming by TL to chill.
Because "gay" is also frequently used by the same football fans to disparage homosexuals. Homosexuality, unlike rape, is a controversial subject that some people feel supportive of, some neutral, and statistically, most people look down on gays. So, a commentator would not use the term "gay" to describe something because it is not 100% accepted to mean "stupid" in most of its uses by its fans. The same tailgating republican Football fan could just as easily go make fun of gay "faggots" after a game.
Contrasting this, gamers all agree that rape sucks and isn't a cool thing (except the .001% who try to act cool or controversial or whatever). When we say we raped someone, we would never shit-talk a rape victim and be like LOL U GOT OWNED. Gamers agree on BOTH meanings of rape: in game context rape is the act of ownage, and outside of games it is a despicable act.
Back to why gay isn't used: gay isn't agreed upon on what its definition is. To liberal, (bias inc) more educated people, gay just means something stupid/lame and has no correlation to sexual orientation AT ALL. To a hick, gay could mean something stupid AND that gay people are stupid. Its definitions in all its contexts are not agreed upon; to some gayness, stupidity, and homosexuality are all the same thing. To others, people would label a 7pool as gay/stupid but never label a homosexual as "stupid" in the same definition of gay.
I try to avoid saying faggot, but am completely guilty of using the word rape. Rape, I guess unfortunately, has multiple meanings now. I guess you could argue that for faggot as well, but if you aren't going to run around screaming chink and nigger, then you probably shouldn't say faggot either. Same goes for any other slur like that.
On August 14 2010 07:31 johnlee wrote: Here's an excerpt from a book No One Owns You by Andrew Knight, which pretty much sums up how I feel about this: + Show Spoiler +
"There is, in my opinion, nothing inherently wrong, vulgar, violent, or indecent about any language, including profanity. Words are just fucking words. Without doubt, they can be used (in conjunction with raised voices and aggressive body language) to intimidate and verbally abuse others. However, the mere use of these words to communicate is not, per se, violent. So what might a Libertarian say about a hypersensitive Puritan woman who is stuck in the same room with a man who honed his vocabulary in a federal penitentiary? Assume that the man has no intention of being violent but, in speaking naturally, discusses things the Puritan finds acutely objectionable and in a language that makes her want to squeal in disgust.
Let’s make no mistake: the Puritan experiences emotional trauma by the man’s words. In some metaphysical sense, the man’s nonviolent words are causing her pain, but only in conjunction with her hypersensitivity. Who is to blame and what should be done to alleviate the pain?
First, to assign blame here is to assume that someone is acting wrongly. I suggest that neither is wrong. The Puritan woman is merely reacting according to her pre-programming and emotional conditioning, and so is the man. In other words, they are both merely being themselves. Because the man is not being offensively violent to the woman, and also because he is not intending to harm her, the woman has no right to use violence against him in defense. Without an offense, there is no defense. Libertarianism respects the right of every person to be himself and to act, speak, and live freely to the extent that he does not violate the rights of others. The woman’s rights to life, liberty, and property have not been abrogated by the man’s choice of words.
To assert that neither is to blame and that no offensive attack has occurred is not to invalidate the woman’s feelings. Indeed, she does feel pain (of discomfort, at the very least) and she is not to blame for having these feelings. However, she is responsible for them. She must be held accountable for the ease with which she feels pain. A hypersensitive person cannot expect the world’s inhabitants to tiptoe around her in constant fear that she will be disturbed by the sounds of their footfall. People are people. Sometimes they’re loud. Sometimes they’re obnoxious. Sometimes they get in our way. But we share this tiny planet with several billion of them. To require every person to conform to our individual standards of comfort or morality would be chaotic as there are several billion such standards – one for each person. But to let people be themselves, to accept and understand even if we don’t agree – that is the recipe for peace and tranquility. Therefore, in my opinion, it is the woman’s responsibility to either leave the room or to learn to accept the man for who he is. The woman’s pain – a very real and understandable pain – is nonetheless her problem, not his. To hold otherwise would be to allow the world to be controlled by the most hypersensitive people. I say: let them be sensitive. Let them take offense. Let them be perpetually annoyed, bothered, angry, and judgemental. In the meanwhile, I’ll continue to be the free, unhindered, joyful child that I am. In the meanwhile, I’ll continue to live without artificial constraints, respecting the rights of others to live freely, and with little concern as to who may find me offensive, rude, or socially inept. To require every person to stay in his own space, to tread lightly, to speak softly, to conform to the hypersensitive person’s arbitrary standards and notions of decency is to blame every person for his very existence. Humans are creatures of nature. Neither the Victorian Era nor the Industrial Revolution changed the fact that we are all, fundamentally, children. Children are loud, cantankerous, silly, rude animals and they neither understand nor fully obey societal rules. On the other hand, to set a very high threshold for discomfort – to let the people around you be themselves without your resorting to anger, judgement, or criticism – is one of the kindest gifts you can bestow on the world. You can meaningfully contribute to humanity by accepting others as they are and decreasing your sensitivity to their differing opinions and ways of life.
The Puritan woman need not like the man, nor is she required to engage in conversation with him. But he has not offensively attacked her and, therefore, she has no defensive recourse. She has three options: a) continue to experience pain; b) leave the room; or c) learn to accept the man as he is, reduce her sensitivities, and increase her pain threshold. Of course, option a) seems unwise and option b) will doom the woman to isolation and loneliness. After all, we’ve all known lonely elderly folks stuck in retirement homes whom few will visit for fear of their judgements, hypersensitivity, and manipulation. Arguably, the woman’s best option is c): she has the power to accept the man as he is. She need not feel pain when surrounded by people who look differently, speak differently, and have different priorities than she does.
I believe that it is every person’s responsibility, both for his own happiness as well as that of the world’s populace, to shed his sensitivities and artificial dictates about how others “should” act, speak, dress, and live. The Puritan woman may feel a very real discomfort to which we can all empathize, but that is her problem to solve. To allow her to push her insecurities and discomforts on others is to allow the world to be ruled by fear, prejudice, hatred, and the psychological constraints imposed by cowards."
Erm so your point is that if we allow a woman who was raped to have a problem with that then we " allow her to push her insecurities and discomforts on others is to allow the world to be ruled by fear, prejudice, hatred, and the psychological constraints imposed by cowards"+ Show Spoiler +
Yep. If we let a woman who was raped push onto us HER issues with the way WE use the word, then we definitely a problem. I'm not okay-ing the fact that woman was raped. I'm saying that the fact that she is trying to use her rape experiences (which was clearly unfortunate) to disallow a gaming community or anything else for that matter from using the word, is wrong when it's clear that we are not using the word rape in the sense that she experienced.
It's as simple as that.
Sooo she disallows the gaming community and not the other way around? And im pretty sure no one EVER tried to USE their real rape experiences to gain anything. As far as i know aprox 70% of women dont even report the fact to the police due to intense shame caused by dumbasses who think like "She asked for it fo sure!" or "im sure she was a ho anyways" or "the bitch is lying she wanted it"
I've noticed a few of the posts lately are talking about rights. I hope people are aware the OP never intended to take away your right to say it, he was instead trying to say "please look at the repercussions it can cause on others. I'm not telling you that you're not allowed to say it. I'm asking you to be considerate." No one is saying you have to stop using it, it's merely a request. Which is fine when people are saying no, imo, but those who are bringing in "rights" and "free speech" are missing the entire point of the OP.
He's not saying "she has the right not to be offended." He's saying "please be considerate and don't offend her."
It's not up to you to tell me what words to use. Sure you can inform me of what the word 'rape' means to certain people but thats not gonna stop me from saying shit like faggot rape gay.
This conversation is stupid as fuck. I'm pretty sure the two following things are undeniable:
* Using "raped" as a synonym for "beat" or "owned" will make most women think you are an immature piece of shit.
* Lots of people will keep using it anyway because they don't give a damn. I sure will.
It's idiotic to discuss whether women "ought to" be offended, or draw some weird comparisons to other words. It's not up to you to decide who gets offended and who doesn't. It's up to you to decide whether to use words that offend people.
Is there something worth talking about here that I'm missing?
On August 14 2010 07:59 FabledIntegral wrote: I've noticed a few of the posts lately are talking about rights. I hope people are aware the OP never intended to take away your right to say it, he was instead trying to say "please look at the repercussions it can cause on others. I'm not telling you that you're not allowed to say it. I'm asking you to be considerate." No one is saying you have to stop using it, it's merely a request. Which is fine when people are saying no, imo, but those who are bringing in "rights" and "free speech" are missing the entire point of the OP.
He's not saying "she has the right not to be offended." He's saying "please be considerate and don't offend her."
He's editted his post somewhat but his tone was extremely arrogant and he suggested everyone who disagreed with him was immature, stupid or both. I think he'd have had a lot less of an argument on his hands had he taken a less sanctimonious approach.
On August 14 2010 05:32 Fontong wrote: The amount I'm offended by the word 'rape' is zero. If this was about the words 'gay' or 'faggot', or any other derogatory term referring to homosexuality, I would be much more open.
Rape victims are not being oppressed by society like homosexuals are, so let's deal with the bigger issues first, eh?
I'm not about to play 'who is worse off' but to say that homosexuals have a monopoly on negative treatment by society is ludicrous.
Good thing I didn't say that
You did say that you can';t be bothered with rape victims because homosexuals have a much worse situation. Which is ridiculous.
Kwark did a good job of elucidating my pointed, however, more explanation on my part would be prudent.
I'm not dismissing the use of the word 'rape' as an issue entirely. The difference between the use of words like rape and the use of words that are slang for homosexual is that no one who uses the word rape is a proponent of forced sexual intercourse. Is this not true? The word rape came into use in the gaming community because of its stipulation that the victim was helpless to defend against it. The phrase 'wow raped' obviously means that someone got completely dominated.
On the other hand, terms like 'fag' and 'gay' are derogatory terms based on some peoples belief that homosexuals don't have the same rights, or are in some way worse(going to hell, hated by god, ect) than a regular heterosexual human being. Using 'rape' on the internet isn't dehumanizing like 'fag' is - fag is equivalent to racial slander imo. If gay had the same stigma as nigger, and so was unacceptable in all but the closest and tight knit of circles, I think people would be much more likely to drop the usage online. As it is, people think it is ok to call people a fag if they think they are an idiot. Why should all kinds of racial slander be disallowed on our forums if gay and fag as derogatory terms are allowed? How are those usages any different from racial slander? There isn't a real difference in my opinion.
By supporting the usage of fag casually, we support the use of fag as an insult to homosexuals. It makes the term non-polarizing, since people who use or see the word casually will be less offended when it is aimed towards actual homosexuals. Rape has not lost its actual meaning, and I doubt it will even continue to do so. Since rape is universal, and applies to all humans(though most predominantly women), it is much harder for it to lose its meaning. We aren't dehumanizing people by using rape casually, though it might be offensive. No one would have their lessened reaction when hearing that their friend, significant other, or family member was raped just because they heard rape used casually.
Sorry for not elaborating on my opinion in my original post.
On August 14 2010 07:56 Klamity wrote: I try to avoid saying faggot, but am completely guilty of using the word rape. Rape, I guess unfortunately, has multiple meanings now. I guess you could argue that for faggot as well, but if you aren't going to run around screaming chink and nigger, then you probably shouldn't say faggot either. Same goes for any other slur like that.
well if you're going to say chink and nigger you might as well go around running saying EVERY other offensive word known to man, right, because language is a dichotomy with no transitory stages or intermediates...
btw the word faggot has gone through an amazing amount of definitions through its days, probably because it's awesomely fun to say. chink and nigger are just racist, man. =p
when someone calls someone a faggot, they likely aren't implying that they have the moral worth of a homosexual. they're probably just calling them, in their mind, an annoying piece of shit tool. and just btw, last night when I was LANing playing League of Legends with my friends I recall saying stuff like "wow is this fucking nigger serious," and blackness was the last thing on my mind. it's just an expression of ephemeral but intense frustration/anger. well not that intense, LoL doesn't make me rage at all compared to sc~
I know I said I would not post again but please do not lie about me.
I did not edit my original post at all except to add the two quotes and the bolded portions. I did not change any of the original language.
And if you read my post carefully you will see that I said "and it's NOT just immature and stupid people" that use the word.
What I DID say (in a later post which I also did not edit), was that I am 100% right. I regret my wording but I still do believe 100% that using those words the way that we use them IS immature and IS hurtful and DOES reflect poorly on our community.
And if you can avoid lying about me I will stick by my claim and refrain from posting in this thread again.
On August 14 2010 07:31 johnlee wrote: Here's an excerpt from a book No One Owns You by Andrew Knight, which pretty much sums up how I feel about this: + Show Spoiler +
"There is, in my opinion, nothing inherently wrong, vulgar, violent, or indecent about any language, including profanity. Words are just fucking words. Without doubt, they can be used (in conjunction with raised voices and aggressive body language) to intimidate and verbally abuse others. However, the mere use of these words to communicate is not, per se, violent. So what might a Libertarian say about a hypersensitive Puritan woman who is stuck in the same room with a man who honed his vocabulary in a federal penitentiary? Assume that the man has no intention of being violent but, in speaking naturally, discusses things the Puritan finds acutely objectionable and in a language that makes her want to squeal in disgust.
Let’s make no mistake: the Puritan experiences emotional trauma by the man’s words. In some metaphysical sense, the man’s nonviolent words are causing her pain, but only in conjunction with her hypersensitivity. Who is to blame and what should be done to alleviate the pain?
First, to assign blame here is to assume that someone is acting wrongly. I suggest that neither is wrong. The Puritan woman is merely reacting according to her pre-programming and emotional conditioning, and so is the man. In other words, they are both merely being themselves. Because the man is not being offensively violent to the woman, and also because he is not intending to harm her, the woman has no right to use violence against him in defense. Without an offense, there is no defense. Libertarianism respects the right of every person to be himself and to act, speak, and live freely to the extent that he does not violate the rights of others. The woman’s rights to life, liberty, and property have not been abrogated by the man’s choice of words.
To assert that neither is to blame and that no offensive attack has occurred is not to invalidate the woman’s feelings. Indeed, she does feel pain (of discomfort, at the very least) and she is not to blame for having these feelings. However, she is responsible for them. She must be held accountable for the ease with which she feels pain. A hypersensitive person cannot expect the world’s inhabitants to tiptoe around her in constant fear that she will be disturbed by the sounds of their footfall. People are people. Sometimes they’re loud. Sometimes they’re obnoxious. Sometimes they get in our way. But we share this tiny planet with several billion of them. To require every person to conform to our individual standards of comfort or morality would be chaotic as there are several billion such standards – one for each person. But to let people be themselves, to accept and understand even if we don’t agree – that is the recipe for peace and tranquility. Therefore, in my opinion, it is the woman’s responsibility to either leave the room or to learn to accept the man for who he is. The woman’s pain – a very real and understandable pain – is nonetheless her problem, not his. To hold otherwise would be to allow the world to be controlled by the most hypersensitive people. I say: let them be sensitive. Let them take offense. Let them be perpetually annoyed, bothered, angry, and judgemental. In the meanwhile, I’ll continue to be the free, unhindered, joyful child that I am. In the meanwhile, I’ll continue to live without artificial constraints, respecting the rights of others to live freely, and with little concern as to who may find me offensive, rude, or socially inept. To require every person to stay in his own space, to tread lightly, to speak softly, to conform to the hypersensitive person’s arbitrary standards and notions of decency is to blame every person for his very existence. Humans are creatures of nature. Neither the Victorian Era nor the Industrial Revolution changed the fact that we are all, fundamentally, children. Children are loud, cantankerous, silly, rude animals and they neither understand nor fully obey societal rules. On the other hand, to set a very high threshold for discomfort – to let the people around you be themselves without your resorting to anger, judgement, or criticism – is one of the kindest gifts you can bestow on the world. You can meaningfully contribute to humanity by accepting others as they are and decreasing your sensitivity to their differing opinions and ways of life.
The Puritan woman need not like the man, nor is she required to engage in conversation with him. But he has not offensively attacked her and, therefore, she has no defensive recourse. She has three options: a) continue to experience pain; b) leave the room; or c) learn to accept the man as he is, reduce her sensitivities, and increase her pain threshold. Of course, option a) seems unwise and option b) will doom the woman to isolation and loneliness. After all, we’ve all known lonely elderly folks stuck in retirement homes whom few will visit for fear of their judgements, hypersensitivity, and manipulation. Arguably, the woman’s best option is c): she has the power to accept the man as he is. She need not feel pain when surrounded by people who look differently, speak differently, and have different priorities than she does.
I believe that it is every person’s responsibility, both for his own happiness as well as that of the world’s populace, to shed his sensitivities and artificial dictates about how others “should” act, speak, dress, and live. The Puritan woman may feel a very real discomfort to which we can all empathize, but that is her problem to solve. To allow her to push her insecurities and discomforts on others is to allow the world to be ruled by fear, prejudice, hatred, and the psychological constraints imposed by cowards."
Erm so your point is that if we allow a woman who was raped to have a problem with that then we " allow her to push her insecurities and discomforts on others is to allow the world to be ruled by fear, prejudice, hatred, and the psychological constraints imposed by cowards"+ Show Spoiler +
Yep. If we let a woman who was raped push onto us HER issues with the way WE use the word, then we definitely a problem. I'm not okay-ing the fact that woman was raped. I'm saying that the fact that she is trying to use her rape experiences (which was clearly unfortunate) to disallow a gaming community or anything else for that matter from using the word, is wrong when it's clear that we are not using the word rape in the sense that she experienced.
It's as simple as that.
Would it be incorrect to sum up your views as "I don't care one iota about you, deal with it"?
I think we should care about these people and not use offensive words. I don't get why such a tiny thing that could make so many people hurt less is being resisted so much.
I find a lot of Americans inherently don't like socialism. Thre reason is: "Why should I have to do "insert something here" to benefit someone I don't know or care about?" It sounds selfish when you look at one example in a vacuum. It is just one little word right? Well, there are other words that offend people too. Why should you stop saying one little word that offends people, but be allowed to say other words that offend people? We should stop saying those other words too and make so many more hurt even less. Where should it stop? When do we get to the point where it becomes burdensome?
Some people think socialism is good. Some people think socialism is bad. It is basically the root behind this discussion about using one little word. You can agree or disagree with how people feel about it, but that's basically the jist.
On August 14 2010 07:56 Klamity wrote: I try to avoid saying faggot, but am completely guilty of using the word rape. Rape, I guess unfortunately, has multiple meanings now. I guess you could argue that for faggot as well, but if you aren't going to run around screaming chink and nigger, then you probably shouldn't say faggot either. Same goes for any other slur like that.
well if you're going to say chink and nigger you might as well go around running saying EVERY other offensive word known to man, right, because language is a dichotomy with no transitory stages or intermediates...
btw the word faggot has gone through an amazing amount of definitions through its days, probably because it's awesomely fun to say. chink and nigger are just racist, man. =p
when someone calls someone a faggot, they likely aren't implying that they have the moral worth of a homosexual. they're probably just calling them, in their mind, an annoying piece of shit tool.
What if they call someone a faggot and then tell them that they are probably sucking a dick right now?
It's common, believe me. It is implying that a man giving fellatio to another man makes him a lesser person.
Bringing up the fact that rape and own are synonyms in the gamers dictionary kinda grossed me out. It's not something I'd thought about before. I'm in full support of not using the words rape, gay, faggot, and retard in negative and insulting ways.
On August 14 2010 07:59 FabledIntegral wrote: I've noticed a few of the posts lately are talking about rights. I hope people are aware the OP never intended to take away your right to say it, he was instead trying to say "please look at the repercussions it can cause on others. I'm not telling you that you're not allowed to say it. I'm asking you to be considerate." No one is saying you have to stop using it, it's merely a request. Which is fine when people are saying no, imo, but those who are bringing in "rights" and "free speech" are missing the entire point of the OP.
He's not saying "she has the right not to be offended." He's saying "please be considerate and don't offend her."
He's editted his post somewhat but his tone was extremely arrogant and he suggested everyone who disagreed with him was immature, stupid or both. I think he'd have had a lot less of an argument on his hands had he taken a less sanctimonious approach.
I agree, he was arrogant. He sounded like environmental wackos, Peta members, Vegans, religious wackos, and other people who try to impose their views and standards on you. His pattern of posting conforms to how these groups make arguments.
On August 14 2010 07:31 johnlee wrote: Here's an excerpt from a book No One Owns You by Andrew Knight, which pretty much sums up how I feel about this: + Show Spoiler +
"There is, in my opinion, nothing inherently wrong, vulgar, violent, or indecent about any language, including profanity. Words are just fucking words. Without doubt, they can be used (in conjunction with raised voices and aggressive body language) to intimidate and verbally abuse others. However, the mere use of these words to communicate is not, per se, violent. So what might a Libertarian say about a hypersensitive Puritan woman who is stuck in the same room with a man who honed his vocabulary in a federal penitentiary? Assume that the man has no intention of being violent but, in speaking naturally, discusses things the Puritan finds acutely objectionable and in a language that makes her want to squeal in disgust.
Let’s make no mistake: the Puritan experiences emotional trauma by the man’s words. In some metaphysical sense, the man’s nonviolent words are causing her pain, but only in conjunction with her hypersensitivity. Who is to blame and what should be done to alleviate the pain?
First, to assign blame here is to assume that someone is acting wrongly. I suggest that neither is wrong. The Puritan woman is merely reacting according to her pre-programming and emotional conditioning, and so is the man. In other words, they are both merely being themselves. Because the man is not being offensively violent to the woman, and also because he is not intending to harm her, the woman has no right to use violence against him in defense. Without an offense, there is no defense. Libertarianism respects the right of every person to be himself and to act, speak, and live freely to the extent that he does not violate the rights of others. The woman’s rights to life, liberty, and property have not been abrogated by the man’s choice of words.
To assert that neither is to blame and that no offensive attack has occurred is not to invalidate the woman’s feelings. Indeed, she does feel pain (of discomfort, at the very least) and she is not to blame for having these feelings. However, she is responsible for them. She must be held accountable for the ease with which she feels pain. A hypersensitive person cannot expect the world’s inhabitants to tiptoe around her in constant fear that she will be disturbed by the sounds of their footfall. People are people. Sometimes they’re loud. Sometimes they’re obnoxious. Sometimes they get in our way. But we share this tiny planet with several billion of them. To require every person to conform to our individual standards of comfort or morality would be chaotic as there are several billion such standards – one for each person. But to let people be themselves, to accept and understand even if we don’t agree – that is the recipe for peace and tranquility. Therefore, in my opinion, it is the woman’s responsibility to either leave the room or to learn to accept the man for who he is. The woman’s pain – a very real and understandable pain – is nonetheless her problem, not his. To hold otherwise would be to allow the world to be controlled by the most hypersensitive people. I say: let them be sensitive. Let them take offense. Let them be perpetually annoyed, bothered, angry, and judgemental. In the meanwhile, I’ll continue to be the free, unhindered, joyful child that I am. In the meanwhile, I’ll continue to live without artificial constraints, respecting the rights of others to live freely, and with little concern as to who may find me offensive, rude, or socially inept. To require every person to stay in his own space, to tread lightly, to speak softly, to conform to the hypersensitive person’s arbitrary standards and notions of decency is to blame every person for his very existence. Humans are creatures of nature. Neither the Victorian Era nor the Industrial Revolution changed the fact that we are all, fundamentally, children. Children are loud, cantankerous, silly, rude animals and they neither understand nor fully obey societal rules. On the other hand, to set a very high threshold for discomfort – to let the people around you be themselves without your resorting to anger, judgement, or criticism – is one of the kindest gifts you can bestow on the world. You can meaningfully contribute to humanity by accepting others as they are and decreasing your sensitivity to their differing opinions and ways of life.
The Puritan woman need not like the man, nor is she required to engage in conversation with him. But he has not offensively attacked her and, therefore, she has no defensive recourse. She has three options: a) continue to experience pain; b) leave the room; or c) learn to accept the man as he is, reduce her sensitivities, and increase her pain threshold. Of course, option a) seems unwise and option b) will doom the woman to isolation and loneliness. After all, we’ve all known lonely elderly folks stuck in retirement homes whom few will visit for fear of their judgements, hypersensitivity, and manipulation. Arguably, the woman’s best option is c): she has the power to accept the man as he is. She need not feel pain when surrounded by people who look differently, speak differently, and have different priorities than she does.
I believe that it is every person’s responsibility, both for his own happiness as well as that of the world’s populace, to shed his sensitivities and artificial dictates about how others “should” act, speak, dress, and live. The Puritan woman may feel a very real discomfort to which we can all empathize, but that is her problem to solve. To allow her to push her insecurities and discomforts on others is to allow the world to be ruled by fear, prejudice, hatred, and the psychological constraints imposed by cowards."
Erm so your point is that if we allow a woman who was raped to have a problem with that then we " allow her to push her insecurities and discomforts on others is to allow the world to be ruled by fear, prejudice, hatred, and the psychological constraints imposed by cowards"+ Show Spoiler +
Yep. If we let a woman who was raped push onto us HER issues with the way WE use the word, then we definitely a problem. I'm not okay-ing the fact that woman was raped. I'm saying that the fact that she is trying to use her rape experiences (which was clearly unfortunate) to disallow a gaming community or anything else for that matter from using the word, is wrong when it's clear that we are not using the word rape in the sense that she experienced.
It's as simple as that.
Would it be incorrect to sum up your views as "I don't care one iota about you, deal with it"?
I think we should care about these people and not use offensive words. I don't get why such a tiny thing that could make so many people hurt less is being resisted so much.
I find a lot of Americans inherently don't like socialism. Thre reason is: "Why should I have to do "insert something here" to benefit someone I don't know or care about?" It sounds selfish when you look at one example in a vacuum. It is just one little word right? Well, there are other words that offend people too. Why should you stop saying one little word that offends people, but be allowed to say other words that offend people? We should stop saying those other words too and make so many more hurt even less. Where should it stop? When do we get to the point where it becomes burdensome?
Some people think socialism is good. Some people think socialism is bad. It is basically the root behind this discussion about using one little word. You can agree or disagree with how people feel about it, but that's basically the jist.
If we add Hitler to the discussion, we will have had everything: human rights, socialism, community prides, politically correct AND Nazism. Isn't that wonderful?
Actually most post i read here didn't try to force anyone to censor their language. No one tried to stop anyone from doing anything. Its a free internet everyone can say anyhing about anyone. I for one im just trying to ask you to THINK what some words we as gamers use can mean to other people. People who could be valued members of the community. Im pretty sure most of us when we see a nickname like Nikky or Jess we imagine that our opponent is some hot blonde chick. Im pretty sure 99% of the time its just some fat guy. No hot blonde chick would play in a community who uses words like rape... Just my opionon...
Anyways like the saying goes " Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win youre still retarded"
I think the usage of "rape" in a gaming sense is legitimate. The word does not strictly imply a sexual act (look it up in a dictionary). That doesn't mean that it's a good thing, as there are other words that can be used to describe defeat. Ultimately I don't think you can really say it's that offensive. It's (kind of) like saying that a kid's magazine cover is inappropriate because it talks about cleavage. And explains cells dividing.
However, "gay", "faggot", "nigger", are all despicably derogatory and there is no excuse to use these words as insults.
On August 14 2010 07:56 Klamity wrote: I try to avoid saying faggot, but am completely guilty of using the word rape. Rape, I guess unfortunately, has multiple meanings now. I guess you could argue that for faggot as well, but if you aren't going to run around screaming chink and nigger, then you probably shouldn't say faggot either. Same goes for any other slur like that.
well if you're going to say chink and nigger you might as well go around running saying EVERY other offensive word known to man, right, because language is a dichotomy with no transitory stages or intermediates...
btw the word faggot has gone through an amazing amount of definitions through its days, probably because it's awesomely fun to say. chink and nigger are just racist, man. =p
when someone calls someone a faggot, they likely aren't implying that they have the moral worth of a homosexual. they're probably just calling them, in their mind, an annoying piece of shit tool.
What if they call someone a faggot and then tell them that they are probably sucking a dick right now?
It's common, believe me. It is implying that a man giving fellatio to another man makes him a lesser person.
One could argue that oral copulation is commonly used to insult people. Suck My [blank], Eat Me, etc... It is implying that the person giving fellatio to another makes them a lesser person, regardless of sex or sexuality, due to being in the more submissive position of the relationship. The word used above, due to common views in society, instantly gives the mental image of the submissive role in the relationship.
When someone calls you gay, they aren't inferring you take the dominate role in the relationship. Just as if someone were to call you a woman. They aren't doing it to put down women, or to say that women are lesser persons than man, they are just noting the fact that society sees women are usually the submissive partner in a relationship.
On August 14 2010 07:59 FabledIntegral wrote: I've noticed a few of the posts lately are talking about rights. I hope people are aware the OP never intended to take away your right to say it, he was instead trying to say "please look at the repercussions it can cause on others. I'm not telling you that you're not allowed to say it. I'm asking you to be considerate." No one is saying you have to stop using it, it's merely a request. Which is fine when people are saying no, imo, but those who are bringing in "rights" and "free speech" are missing the entire point of the OP.
He's not saying "she has the right not to be offended." He's saying "please be considerate and don't offend her."
He's editted his post somewhat but his tone was extremely arrogant and he suggested everyone who disagreed with him was immature, stupid or both. I think he'd have had a lot less of an argument on his hands had he taken a less sanctimonious approach.
Admittedly some of his other posts were not the greatest, but I feel the original OP was fine without much arrogance at all, and I've followed the thread almost in its entirety. I do agree with you on parts, but I feel people don't see the actual message. He clearly stated in one post though what I said above.
Btw, I'm not saying I'm even agreeing with him, it's just annoying people not seeing the message he's trying to say. The validity of the message might be in question, but when they miss it entirely...
On August 14 2010 08:15 sadyque wrote: Actually most post i read here didn't try to force anyone to censor their language. No one tried to stop anyone from doing anything. Its a free internet everyone can say anyhing about anyone. I for one im just trying to ask you to THINK what some words we as gamers use can mean to other people. People who could be valued members of the community. Im pretty sure most of us when we see a nickname like Nikky or Jess we imagine that our opponent is some hot blonde chick. Im pretty sure 99% of the time its just some fat guy. No hot blonde chick would play in a community who uses words like rape... Just my opionon...
Anyways like the saying goes " Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win youre still retarded"
Hahahahahahaha :-) Some Romanian power here. Made me smile.
On August 14 2010 08:19 Sunyveil wrote: I think the usage of "rape" in a gaming sense is legitimate. The word does not strictly imply a sexual act (look it up in a dictionary). That doesn't mean that it's a good thing, as there are other words that can be used to describe defeat. Ultimately I don't think you can really say it's that offensive. It's (kind of) like saying that a kid's magazine cover is inappropriate because it talks about cleavage. And explains cells dividing.
However, "gay", "faggot", "nigger", are all despicably derogatory and there is no excuse to use these words as insults.
there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.
On August 14 2010 07:31 johnlee wrote: Here's an excerpt from a book No One Owns You by Andrew Knight, which pretty much sums up how I feel about this: + Show Spoiler +
"There is, in my opinion, nothing inherently wrong, vulgar, violent, or indecent about any language, including profanity. Words are just fucking words. Without doubt, they can be used (in conjunction with raised voices and aggressive body language) to intimidate and verbally abuse others. However, the mere use of these words to communicate is not, per se, violent. So what might a Libertarian say about a hypersensitive Puritan woman who is stuck in the same room with a man who honed his vocabulary in a federal penitentiary? Assume that the man has no intention of being violent but, in speaking naturally, discusses things the Puritan finds acutely objectionable and in a language that makes her want to squeal in disgust.
Let’s make no mistake: the Puritan experiences emotional trauma by the man’s words. In some metaphysical sense, the man’s nonviolent words are causing her pain, but only in conjunction with her hypersensitivity. Who is to blame and what should be done to alleviate the pain?
First, to assign blame here is to assume that someone is acting wrongly. I suggest that neither is wrong. The Puritan woman is merely reacting according to her pre-programming and emotional conditioning, and so is the man. In other words, they are both merely being themselves. Because the man is not being offensively violent to the woman, and also because he is not intending to harm her, the woman has no right to use violence against him in defense. Without an offense, there is no defense. Libertarianism respects the right of every person to be himself and to act, speak, and live freely to the extent that he does not violate the rights of others. The woman’s rights to life, liberty, and property have not been abrogated by the man’s choice of words.
To assert that neither is to blame and that no offensive attack has occurred is not to invalidate the woman’s feelings. Indeed, she does feel pain (of discomfort, at the very least) and she is not to blame for having these feelings. However, she is responsible for them. She must be held accountable for the ease with which she feels pain. A hypersensitive person cannot expect the world’s inhabitants to tiptoe around her in constant fear that she will be disturbed by the sounds of their footfall. People are people. Sometimes they’re loud. Sometimes they’re obnoxious. Sometimes they get in our way. But we share this tiny planet with several billion of them. To require every person to conform to our individual standards of comfort or morality would be chaotic as there are several billion such standards – one for each person. But to let people be themselves, to accept and understand even if we don’t agree – that is the recipe for peace and tranquility. Therefore, in my opinion, it is the woman’s responsibility to either leave the room or to learn to accept the man for who he is. The woman’s pain – a very real and understandable pain – is nonetheless her problem, not his. To hold otherwise would be to allow the world to be controlled by the most hypersensitive people. I say: let them be sensitive. Let them take offense. Let them be perpetually annoyed, bothered, angry, and judgemental. In the meanwhile, I’ll continue to be the free, unhindered, joyful child that I am. In the meanwhile, I’ll continue to live without artificial constraints, respecting the rights of others to live freely, and with little concern as to who may find me offensive, rude, or socially inept. To require every person to stay in his own space, to tread lightly, to speak softly, to conform to the hypersensitive person’s arbitrary standards and notions of decency is to blame every person for his very existence. Humans are creatures of nature. Neither the Victorian Era nor the Industrial Revolution changed the fact that we are all, fundamentally, children. Children are loud, cantankerous, silly, rude animals and they neither understand nor fully obey societal rules. On the other hand, to set a very high threshold for discomfort – to let the people around you be themselves without your resorting to anger, judgement, or criticism – is one of the kindest gifts you can bestow on the world. You can meaningfully contribute to humanity by accepting others as they are and decreasing your sensitivity to their differing opinions and ways of life.
The Puritan woman need not like the man, nor is she required to engage in conversation with him. But he has not offensively attacked her and, therefore, she has no defensive recourse. She has three options: a) continue to experience pain; b) leave the room; or c) learn to accept the man as he is, reduce her sensitivities, and increase her pain threshold. Of course, option a) seems unwise and option b) will doom the woman to isolation and loneliness. After all, we’ve all known lonely elderly folks stuck in retirement homes whom few will visit for fear of their judgements, hypersensitivity, and manipulation. Arguably, the woman’s best option is c): she has the power to accept the man as he is. She need not feel pain when surrounded by people who look differently, speak differently, and have different priorities than she does.
I believe that it is every person’s responsibility, both for his own happiness as well as that of the world’s populace, to shed his sensitivities and artificial dictates about how others “should” act, speak, dress, and live. The Puritan woman may feel a very real discomfort to which we can all empathize, but that is her problem to solve. To allow her to push her insecurities and discomforts on others is to allow the world to be ruled by fear, prejudice, hatred, and the psychological constraints imposed by cowards."
Erm so your point is that if we allow a woman who was raped to have a problem with that then we " allow her to push her insecurities and discomforts on others is to allow the world to be ruled by fear, prejudice, hatred, and the psychological constraints imposed by cowards"+ Show Spoiler +
Yep. If we let a woman who was raped push onto us HER issues with the way WE use the word, then we definitely a problem. I'm not okay-ing the fact that woman was raped. I'm saying that the fact that she is trying to use her rape experiences (which was clearly unfortunate) to disallow a gaming community or anything else for that matter from using the word, is wrong when it's clear that we are not using the word rape in the sense that she experienced.
It's as simple as that.
Would it be incorrect to sum up your views as "I don't care one iota about you, deal with it"?
I think we should care about these people and not use offensive words. I don't get why such a tiny thing that could make so many people hurt less is being resisted so much.
I find a lot of Americans inherently don't like socialism. Thre reason is: "Why should I have to do "insert something here" to benefit someone I don't know or care about?" It sounds selfish when you look at one example in a vacuum. It is just one little word right? Well, there are other words that offend people too. Why should you stop saying one little word that offends people, but be allowed to say other words that offend people? We should stop saying those other words too and make so many more hurt even less. Where should it stop? When do we get to the point where it becomes burdensome?
Some people think socialism is good. Some people think socialism is bad. It is basically the root behind this discussion about using one little word. You can agree or disagree with how people feel about it, but that's basically the jist.
If we add Hitler to the discussion, we will have had everything: human rights, socialism, community prides, politically correct AND Nazism. Isn't that wonderful?
One more effort comrades!
Hit the "All" button and "Find" --> Hitler. He's been mentioned. Same with Nazi. Maybe not with the same elaboration, but it's there.
On August 14 2010 08:14 StarStruck wrote: Um, how are we lying? You do realize mods can see all your edits right? You didn't deny any of it.
Your tone speaks for itself. Just look at the way you address the issue. People can read between the lines man.
You are a funny guy.
It was implied that I edited my original post to make it less abrasive and that is not the case. I really am sorry that I came off as arrogant and I certainly didn't mean to do so. I am speaking for an issue that embarrasses me as a gamer and that has caused emotional damage to friends of mine so I do believe I became overly emotional and I do apologize.
However my original post stands. Any way, I really hope I can actually not post in this thread any more, please direct the discussion away from me personally if possible.
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote: there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.
This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?
On August 14 2010 08:19 Sunyveil wrote: I think the usage of "rape" in a gaming sense is legitimate. The word does not strictly imply a sexual act (look it up in a dictionary). That doesn't mean that it's a good thing, as there are other words that can be used to describe defeat. Ultimately I don't think you can really say it's that offensive. It's (kind of) like saying that a kid's magazine cover is inappropriate because it talks about cleavage. And explains cells dividing.
However, "gay", "faggot", "nigger", are all despicably derogatory and there is no excuse to use these words as insults.
This post is truly bizarre. What do you mean, "you" can't really say it's that offensive? If it offends a bunch of people, then it's offensive by definition! You don't get to veto them and decide that they're not actually offended because you don't think they should be! You get to decide whether to offend them or not.
On August 14 2010 08:14 StarStruck wrote: Um, how are we lying? You do realize mods can see all your edits right? You didn't deny any of it.
Your tone speaks for itself. Just look at the way you address the issue. People can read between the lines man.
You are a funny guy.
It was implied that I edited my original post to make it less abrasive and that is not the case. I really am sorry that I came off as arrogant and I certainly didn't mean to do so. I am speaking for an issue that embarrasses me as a gamer and that has caused emotional damage to friends of mine so I do believe I became overly emotional and I do apologize.
However my original post stands. Any way, I really hope I can actually not post in this thread any more, please direct the discussion away from me personally if possible.
At one point people like you probably opposed the description of dumb things as 'dumb' so as to not insult deaf and mute people.
language always has this cycle. A term that describes something viewed as pitiful/bad, dumb/retard/rape/gay, turns into an insult. Then over time, that insult loses its strength as it becomes more and more used and people grow complacent towards it.
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote: there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.
This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?
He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions?
On August 14 2010 07:49 huameng wrote: Would it be incorrect to sum up your views as "I don't care one iota about you, deal with it"?
I think we should care about these people and not use offensive words. I don't get why such a tiny thing that could make so many people hurt less is being resisted so much.
I find a lot of Americans inherently don't like socialism. Thre reason is: "Why should I have to do "insert something here" to benefit someone I don't know or care about?" It sounds selfish when you look at one example in a vacuum. It is just one little word right? Well, there are other words that offend people too. Why should you stop saying one little word that offends people, but be allowed to say other words that offend people? We should stop saying those other words too and make so many more hurt even less. Where should it stop? When do we get to the point where it becomes burdensome?
Some people think socialism is good. Some people think socialism is bad. It is basically the root behind this discussion about using one little word. You can agree or disagree with how people feel about it, but that's basically the jist.
I'm not trying to generalize this opinion to a philosophy or political system or anything, I'm just trying to solve this specific problem of people being offended by faggot, rape, nigger, etc. And no one thinks you shouldn't be allowed to offend people, or be vulgar. I just think you should try to not offend anyone, at least not anyone who hasn't done anything to deserve it. We, as a community, don't have to draw a line anywhere, but we, as a community, could be a better one by calling people assholes instead of faggots.
There is a difference between using the word 'rape' and using the word 'faggot'. The difference is that rape victims often suffer from something known as post traumatic stress disorder. When a person who suffers from post traumatic stress disorder hears the word 'rape', they often experience flashbacks and relive the emotions that they experienced from the incident. This isn't simply someone remembering a negative experience; post traumatic stress disorder can only be caused by extreme fear and emotional damage during the incident. Saying 'murder' to a someone who had a family member that was killed is nothing like saying 'rape' to someone who's suffering from post traumatic stress disorder. The former is simply reminding someone of a sad event. The latter is striking at someone's mental disorder causing them to relive the actual emotions.
When you call someone a 'faggot', whether or not it is homophobic is purely contextual. If I yell "get off the road faggot" to some guy driving a loud motorcycle, it does not mean that I'm anti-homosexual. There is no reason that it would offend gay people. The history behind that word is just being a bundle of sticks, or a British cigar. Saying 'rape' is different in that there are consequences to using the word even when not in an offensive context.
Back on track. What this issue boils down to is the well being of rape victims vs gaming culture. I personally do not use the word 'rape' or any other insulting terms because of the reasons that OP stated, and also because I simply don't like all the trash talk that happens in video games. However, I do not wish for other people to follow in my footsteps. The crux of online gaming culture is all the trash talk, the extreme language, and how badly you can verbally offend people. This is something that a lot of people want to experience and it can only happen in online gaming. In real life, you can't say any of that. It's not just the word 'rape' that's bad. There is a lot of context in online gaming that deals with racism, sexism, antisemitism, terrorism, etc. Anything verbal that can possibly offend someone has a place in online gaming. This shady culture that we have in our world has a great value in that it allows people to express their darkest sides without consequence. It allows people to express their deepest anger and hate. For a lot of people, it is an escape from the dreary reality where everyone hides under a mask and only say what won't get them beaten up. By removing certain vocabulary that may hurt people, you are undermining the crux of gaming culture. That is why it is so essential to preserve gaming culture to its fullest. Even though some people may be unintentionally harmed by this, it is more important in life to embrace the things we enjoy rather than avoid the things we detest.
I was actually thinking about this same issue last week, since I noticed that (I think it was) DJWheat and Chill kept using it very casually in the Weapon of Choice broadcast last sunday. I doubt they're anything but nice people and would refrain from using that word if someone felt genuinely offended, so probably it's just a habit many gamers have picked up. I myself often use religious imagery to express strong emotions because I like how colorful it sounds and although I've never been personally asked to refrain from such words in the Netherlands there do exist adds that plead to people to stop using the name of Jesus Christ casually. To be honest I thought that was a completely silly request; most people aren't terribly religious and would never be offended by such things, so to ask me to change phrases I use regularly seemed like oversensitivity.
What I find very troubling about the abuse of the word rape however is that first of all it reflects very badly on teamliquid. It perpetuates the stereotype that gaming is for emotionally immature adolescents, similarly to how homosexual slurs are used. Second, it is glorifying rape because the complete domination of one person over the other is in starcraft a very empowering state and if you just call that rape at the very least you're not helping to lower how horrificly widespread rape is.
I do think the world would be a nicer place if people were just more careful with choosing the words they used. Complete insensitivity to other's sensibilities might make you cool and adult, but hardly emotionally mature, and there's a reward in itself for properly using language as you're often able to express yourself better and think more clearly.
Haven't read EVERYTHING but yes OP thank you. I'm proud of my beloved StarCraft community as one of the most mannared ones in gaming culture and although it's deteriorating I'll try my best to salvage it. Even though I like my fucks and fuckings when pumpedly casting I'll try to pay more attention and not use offensive terminology anymore.
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote: there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.
This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?
He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions?
The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all.
On August 14 2010 07:49 huameng wrote: Would it be incorrect to sum up your views as "I don't care one iota about you, deal with it"?
I think we should care about these people and not use offensive words. I don't get why such a tiny thing that could make so many people hurt less is being resisted so much.
I find a lot of Americans inherently don't like socialism. Thre reason is: "Why should I have to do "insert something here" to benefit someone I don't know or care about?" It sounds selfish when you look at one example in a vacuum. It is just one little word right? Well, there are other words that offend people too. Why should you stop saying one little word that offends people, but be allowed to say other words that offend people? We should stop saying those other words too and make so many more hurt even less. Where should it stop? When do we get to the point where it becomes burdensome?
Some people think socialism is good. Some people think socialism is bad. It is basically the root behind this discussion about using one little word. You can agree or disagree with how people feel about it, but that's basically the jist.
I'm not trying to generalize this opinion to a philosophy or political system or anything, I'm just trying to solve this specific problem of people being offended by faggot, rape, nigger, etc. And no one thinks you shouldn't be allowed to offend people, or be vulgar. I just think you should try to not offend anyone, at least not anyone who hasn't done anything to deserve it. We, as a community, don't have to draw a line anywhere, but we, as a community, could be a better one by calling people assholes instead of faggots.
Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.
Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote: there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.
This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?
He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions?
Do you think characterizing the argument made by the OP as "stop using words that people could misunderstand" is the best, or even one of the best, ways you could do so? I think you are seriously dodging the issue here, and it has nothing to do with any sort of misunderstanding.
Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.
Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?
Because when you call someone a faggot, you aren't just offending the person to whom you are speaking, (which is presumably your goal) but you're offending me, the OP, and a lot of other people as well. Calling someone an asshole doesn't have that effect.
On August 14 2010 07:49 huameng wrote: Would it be incorrect to sum up your views as "I don't care one iota about you, deal with it"?
I think we should care about these people and not use offensive words. I don't get why such a tiny thing that could make so many people hurt less is being resisted so much.
I find a lot of Americans inherently don't like socialism. Thre reason is: "Why should I have to do "insert something here" to benefit someone I don't know or care about?" It sounds selfish when you look at one example in a vacuum. It is just one little word right? Well, there are other words that offend people too. Why should you stop saying one little word that offends people, but be allowed to say other words that offend people? We should stop saying those other words too and make so many more hurt even less. Where should it stop? When do we get to the point where it becomes burdensome?
Some people think socialism is good. Some people think socialism is bad. It is basically the root behind this discussion about using one little word. You can agree or disagree with how people feel about it, but that's basically the jist.
I'm not trying to generalize this opinion to a philosophy or political system or anything, I'm just trying to solve this specific problem of people being offended by faggot, rape, nigger, etc. And no one thinks you shouldn't be allowed to offend people, or be vulgar. I just think you should try to not offend anyone, at least not anyone who hasn't done anything to deserve it. We, as a community, don't have to draw a line anywhere, but we, as a community, could be a better one by calling people assholes instead of faggots.
Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.
Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?
There is not actually a word god telling you that it's OK to use one, but that you will go to hell if you use the other. If you like to be the guy who doesn't give a shit and is totally edgy and if someone thinks otherwise they can fuck off -- then go rape some faggots and forget about it. The point of the post is that when you're sixteen and you grew up on Battle.net and 4chan, sometimes you forget that "rape" and "faggot" and "nigger" offend people in the real world, and you end up insulting a lot of people inadvertently. "Asshole" offends different people, and hell, if you don't want to offend them, then maybe you shouldn't use that word either, huh?
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote: there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.
This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?
He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions?
The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all.
I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context.
That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it.
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote: there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.
This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?
He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions?
Do you think characterizing the argument made by the OP as "stop using words that people could misunderstand" is the best, or even one of the best, ways you could do so? I think you are seriously dodging the issue here, and it has nothing to do with any sort of misunderstanding.
catamorphist seemed to not understand a fairly simply point someone was making so I clarified it for that person. That does not make it my argument, that makes me a translator. Feel free to read any of the previous dozens of posts I've made in the topic for my views.
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote: there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.
This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?
He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions?
The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all.
I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context.
That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it.
OK, well, I propose you do an experiment. In the real world, take ten girls or women that you know -- hopefully not coworkers -- and the next time you want to describe something to them that involves one guy losing out, say that the guy got raped. If they don't mind because they can easily obtain a "very basic understanding of the situation", then I am just wrong and I tip my hat to your accurate assessment of the situation.
But I'm not going to do that experiment, because I know that I would not have very many female friends who still wanted to talk to me after a few trials. I think I know a total of two girls who hang around some gamer guys and don't mind such things, and some rather large amount who would perceive it as either sexist, creepy, offensive, or something an oblivious twelve-year-old would say.
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote: there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.
This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?
He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions?
Do you think characterizing the argument made by the OP as "stop using words that people could misunderstand" is the best, or even one of the best, ways you could do so? I think you are seriously dodging the issue here, and it has nothing to do with any sort of misunderstanding.
Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.
Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?
Because when you call someone a faggot, you aren't just offending the person to whom you are speaking, (which is presumably your goal) but you're offending me, the OP, and a lot of other people as well. Calling someone an asshole doesn't have that effect.
Do you not see the hypocrisy in that statement? Who are you to decide which words offend which people and which one is worse?
Yeah I agree its a terrible word that has worked its way in to our accepted speech about destroying somebody completely. Nothing we can do to change it though. Just don't use it yourself and feel good about that. However if you use the word you don't have to feel bad about it, it's just another word that has gained a seperate less demonic meaning.
I read this thread initially thinking "what a retarded OP this is, clearly a person who is clutching at vague straws to make some loose moral point" but then I realised what a truly visionary point this was.
Phrases such as "you got burned" trivialise people who have been harmed in fires
"Oh man, your killing me!" Clearly this also trivialises murder, Don't they know people die god damn it!
"You got owned!" - all I can saw is wow, how people can even say something that pangs of trivialising slavery and the oppression of a whole race of people is beyond me.
"You got raped" ahh here we come strait to the matter of importance here. Clearly rape is not a word used metaphorically in any sense, CLEARLY it is a way of gamers trivialising (what a fun word that is) rape.
This is a really serious problem and ought be treated as such, in no way is this a ridiculous point to make.
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote: there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.
This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?
He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions?
Do you think characterizing the argument made by the OP as "stop using words that people could misunderstand" is the best, or even one of the best, ways you could do so? I think you are seriously dodging the issue here, and it has nothing to do with any sort of misunderstanding.
Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.
Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?
Because when you call someone a faggot, you aren't just offending the person to whom you are speaking, (which is presumably your goal) but you're offending me, the OP, and a lot of other people as well. Calling someone an asshole doesn't have that effect.
I would argue that many feel the same way about the word faggot that you feel about asshole, it just doesn't have that offensive effect on them. It is possible asshole could have the same effect for others. It may not offend you, and it seems you have no issue about using the word, but it may offend the person next to you, or someone else? The only difference is you can put a face/name to the people offended by the word faggot (you and the OP), but you are unable to put a face/name to the people offended by the word asshole.
On a side note: Outside of these postings, I never use the word. I don't like it, and it makes me cringe hearing other people say it. I might even ask them to not use it while I'm around and if they keep using it I may even remove myself from the situation. Though, I'm not going to tell them they can't use the word because it offends me.
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote: there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.
This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?
He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions?
The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all.
I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context.
That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it.
OK, well, I propose you do an experiment. In the real world, take ten girls or women that you know -- hopefully not coworkers -- and the next time you want to describe something to them that involves one guy losing out, say that the guy got raped. If they don't mind because they can easily obtain a "very basic understanding of the situation", then I am just wrong and I tip my hat to your accurate assessment of the situation.
But I'm not going to do that experiment, because I know that I would not have very many female friends who still wanted to talk to me after a few trials.
Am I the only one that hears the word "rape" used CONSTANTLY in everyday life in these terms? Maybe it has to do with being in a fraternity, but with PLENTY of sorority (and nonaffiliated girls) around the term is still used frequently. Especially in beer pong. "Dude, we just RAPED their team," "man we just raped face."
I agree that it is ridiculous for people to use the term rape for games.
I do not at all agree with the counter arguments that are given either. This is not the case of it being a different meaning of a word. When the word is used in games, it is specifically referring to the definition of rape, not creating it's own definition. It may use it lightly and not literally mean "to rape," but it still is only used on the basis of what rape actually is.
I think this will always just be a terrible thing in gaming communities, though. Not just rape, but excessive use of gay and racial slurs. I do not think that it is too crazy to believe that a thread like this can help at least the teamliquid community, though.
Please do not use the word you guys. I know you don't think you mean anything by it and you can argue about how it is acceptable, but at the end of the day, there are people out there who are still hurt by it regardless of what you believe. Please try not to hurt others, be considerate, friends : ).
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote: there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.
This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?
He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions?
The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all.
I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context.
That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it.
OK, well, I propose you do an experiment. In the real world, take ten girls or women that you know -- hopefully not coworkers -- and the next time you want to describe something to them that involves one guy losing out, say that the guy got raped. If they don't mind because they can easily obtain a "very basic understanding of the situation", then I am just wrong and I tip my hat to your accurate assessment of the situation.
But I'm not going to do that experiment, because I know that I would not have very many female friends who still wanted to talk to me after a few trials.
I get the impression the girls you spend time with are very different from the ones I spend time with.
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote: there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.
This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?
He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions?
The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all.
I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context.
That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it.
OK, well, I propose you do an experiment. In the real world, take ten girls or women that you know -- hopefully not coworkers -- and the next time you want to describe something to them that involves one guy losing out, say that the guy got raped. If they don't mind because they can easily obtain a "very basic understanding of the situation", then I am just wrong and I tip my hat to your accurate assessment of the situation.
But I'm not going to do that experiment, because I know that I would not have very many female friends who still wanted to talk to me after a few trials.
Am I the only one that hears the word "rape" used CONSTANTLY in everyday life in these terms? Maybe it has to do with being in a fraternity, but with PLENTY of sorority (and nonaffiliated girls) around the term is still used frequently. Especially in beer pong. "Dude, we just RAPED their team," "man we just raped face."
I'm not in college anymore; I went to a faggy liberal arts college (so faggy that there were no fraternities) and I heard it in gamer circles but not often outside of that. Now I don't hear it in public ever.
Only on TL could there be a 26 page discussion on 'rape' in gaming. I love this place.
And as for the topic:
'Rape' is a word that is fully ingrained into the gaming culture. It's different than the classic definition of the word. In gaming it means to completely dominate the opponent. It's close to the classic definition, but it has changed as bit. Language is constantly evolving. And some people just won't be able to deal with that.
Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.
Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?
Because when you call someone a faggot, you aren't just offending the person to whom you are speaking, (which is presumably your goal) but you're offending me, the OP, and a lot of other people as well. Calling someone an asshole doesn't have that effect.
Do you not see the hypocrisy in that statement? Who are you to decide which words offend which people?
I didn't decide anything! I just don't know of bystanders being offended by the word "asshole", while I know of many people offended by "faggot". (When not addressed at them) Do you disagree? I know that my anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence but I believe it to be true.
To aex: I'm not sure many people who feel about "asshole" as I do about "faggot" exist, but if they did I would certainly try not to use it either. (I'm not even close to perfect wrt not using such words, but I'm trying) People feeling about "faggot" how I do about "asshole" doesn't really make a difference-- obviously not everything is going to offend everyone.
And I don't think anyone is trying to tell people that they can't say whatever they want, and if they are, well they are just wrong. I'm just saying that I'd like it if you didn't use those words, and I think it could lead to some good things for the community.
On August 14 2010 07:49 huameng wrote: Would it be incorrect to sum up your views as "I don't care one iota about you, deal with it"?
I think we should care about these people and not use offensive words. I don't get why such a tiny thing that could make so many people hurt less is being resisted so much.
I find a lot of Americans inherently don't like socialism. Thre reason is: "Why should I have to do "insert something here" to benefit someone I don't know or care about?" It sounds selfish when you look at one example in a vacuum. It is just one little word right? Well, there are other words that offend people too. Why should you stop saying one little word that offends people, but be allowed to say other words that offend people? We should stop saying those other words too and make so many more hurt even less. Where should it stop? When do we get to the point where it becomes burdensome?
Some people think socialism is good. Some people think socialism is bad. It is basically the root behind this discussion about using one little word. You can agree or disagree with how people feel about it, but that's basically the jist.
I'm not trying to generalize this opinion to a philosophy or political system or anything, I'm just trying to solve this specific problem of people being offended by faggot, rape, nigger, etc. And no one thinks you shouldn't be allowed to offend people, or be vulgar. I just think you should try to not offend anyone, at least not anyone who hasn't done anything to deserve it. We, as a community, don't have to draw a line anywhere, but we, as a community, could be a better one by calling people assholes instead of faggots.
Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.
Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?
There is not actually a word god telling you that it's OK to use one, but that you will go to hell if you use the other. If you like to be the guy who doesn't give a shit and is totally edgy and if someone thinks otherwise they can fuck off -- then go rape some faggots and forget about it. The point of the post is that when you're sixteen and you grew up on Battle.net and 4chan, sometimes you forget that "rape" and "faggot" and "nigger" offend people in the real world, and you end up insulting a lot of people inadvertently. "Asshole" offends different people, and hell, if you don't want to offend them, then maybe you shouldn't use that word either, huh?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you should or should not use that language. I'm just trying to get people to take a peek at the other side
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote: there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.
This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?
He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions?
The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all.
I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context.
That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it.
OK, well, I propose you do an experiment. In the real world, take ten girls or women that you know -- hopefully not coworkers -- and the next time you want to describe something to them that involves one guy losing out, say that the guy got raped. If they don't mind because they can easily obtain a "very basic understanding of the situation", then I am just wrong and I tip my hat to your accurate assessment of the situation.
But I'm not going to do that experiment, because I know that I would not have very many female friends who still wanted to talk to me after a few trials.
I get the impression the girls you spend time with are very different from the ones I spend time with.
Coming full circle, the single useful point of the OP was that maybe this is true, and maybe more girls would play games if there wasn't a generally accepted culture of raping faggots in chat.
Is anyone watching GLHF.TV? Socke is clearly an expert at raping faggots judging by the past few games. We should get his opinion.
Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.
Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?
Because when you call someone a faggot, you aren't just offending the person to whom you are speaking, (which is presumably your goal) but you're offending me, the OP, and a lot of other people as well. Calling someone an asshole doesn't have that effect.
Do you not see the hypocrisy in that statement? Who are you to decide which words offend which people?
I didn't decide anything! I just don't know of bystanders being offended by the word "asshole", while I know of many people offended by "faggot". (When not addressed at them) Do you disagree? I know that my anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence but I believe it to be true.
There are people who are offended by curse words in general. I was standing in line having a conversation with a friend(albiet, vulgar conversation which likely included the word asshole) and a lady told me she was offended I was being so rude. The point is that people can be offended by any variety of words and rape is no different. Applying different rules to different words is just setting a double standard.
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote: there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.
This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?
He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions?
The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all.
I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context.
That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it.
OK, well, I propose you do an experiment. In the real world, take ten girls or women that you know -- hopefully not coworkers -- and the next time you want to describe something to them that involves one guy losing out, say that the guy got raped. If they don't mind because they can easily obtain a "very basic understanding of the situation", then I am just wrong and I tip my hat to your accurate assessment of the situation.
But I'm not going to do that experiment, because I know that I would not have very many female friends who still wanted to talk to me after a few trials.
I get the impression the girls you spend time with are very different from the ones I spend time with.
Coming full circle, the single useful point of the OP was that maybe this is true, and maybe more girls would play games if there wasn't a generally accepted culture of raping faggots in chat.
Hardly. Casuals start playing by playing single player first, not jumping into online competitive gaming. Most girls don't own a console or gaming PC or buy games like SC not because they dislike the multiplayer aspect, but they dislike gaming in general. Gaming culture has little to nothing to do with it I'd imagine.
If you think about it ..rape its a pretty poor insult to use if you are trying to insult someone. Most of the kids actually have no clue what that means and others think its a good thing and some day it might even happen to them (like they saw in some crazy ass hentai). <Insert Random guy Here> has no problem with rape, likes it in porn movies, never worries about it, never had a female around him with this problem...so he pretty much doesnt care about it. Its like insulting some one by calling him Rabbit and then mentioning that "rabbit" is a really really bad word in teh fantasy world were you are living in. The only people you are insulting when you are using the word rape are your mother, your sister, your gran'ma and your female friends (doubtfull you have any if you use the word constantly).
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote: there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.
This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?
He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions?
The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all.
I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context.
That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it.
OK, well, I propose you do an experiment. In the real world, take ten girls or women that you know -- hopefully not coworkers -- and the next time you want to describe something to them that involves one guy losing out, say that the guy got raped. If they don't mind because they can easily obtain a "very basic understanding of the situation", then I am just wrong and I tip my hat to your accurate assessment of the situation.
But I'm not going to do that experiment, because I know that I would not have very many female friends who still wanted to talk to me after a few trials.
I get the impression the girls you spend time with are very different from the ones I spend time with.
Coming full circle, the single useful point of the OP was that maybe this is true, and maybe more girls would play games if there wasn't a generally accepted culture of raping faggots in chat.
Taking an anecdotal sample of girls I am friends with (none of whom have been raped) I can estimate that this would be a deciding factor for a total of none of them. I cannot even begin to empathise with a level of sensitivity in which a person who would otherwise enthusiastically play a game would choose not to because of a word. Girls really aren't all that different from us real people. We're all here in spite of the offensive nature of the internet (which doesn't exclusively offend girls). We could perhaps give them a little credit.
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote: there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.
This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?
He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions?
The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all.
I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context.
That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it.
OK, well, I propose you do an experiment. In the real world, take ten girls or women that you know -- hopefully not coworkers -- and the next time you want to describe something to them that involves one guy losing out, say that the guy got raped. If they don't mind because they can easily obtain a "very basic understanding of the situation", then I am just wrong and I tip my hat to your accurate assessment of the situation.
But I'm not going to do that experiment, because I know that I would not have very many female friends who still wanted to talk to me after a few trials.
I get the impression the girls you spend time with are very different from the ones I spend time with.
Coming full circle, the single useful point of the OP was that maybe this is true, and maybe more girls would play games if there wasn't a generally accepted culture of raping faggots in chat.
Hardly. Casuals start playing by playing single player first, not jumping into online competitive gaming. Most girls don't own a console or gaming PC or buy games like SC not because they dislike the multiplayer aspect, but they dislike gaming in general. Gaming culture has little to nothing to do with it I'd imagine.
I agree with you, personally, but the inverse isn't ridiculous; if girls are just dissuaded somewhat from becoming "hardcore" gamers because of the culture, then there's going to be less word-of-mouth encouragement and evangelism coming from girls, and their friends might be less likely to do more gaming themselves. Traditionally, these kinds of gender disparities seem to be vicious cycles, with small discouragements multiplying into big differences.
Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.
Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?
Because when you call someone a faggot, you aren't just offending the person to whom you are speaking, (which is presumably your goal) but you're offending me, the OP, and a lot of other people as well. Calling someone an asshole doesn't have that effect.
Do you not see the hypocrisy in that statement? Who are you to decide which words offend which people?
I didn't decide anything! I just don't know of bystanders being offended by the word "asshole", while I know of many people offended by "faggot". (When not addressed at them) Do you disagree? I know that my anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence but I believe it to be true.
What if someone came up to you and said, the word asshole offends me because I was born with a closed sphincter. That's a completely silly scenario, right? Would you stop using it? What about when that person was no longer in the area? Or would you just dismiss their feelings because you think the reason they are offended is silly? How about the mother, with the gaggle of children at her side, when you nonchalantly called the guy who cut you in line an asshole?
People are going to be offended by vulgar language, and just because one word might offend bystanders than another word, doesn't mean it is better to use the "less offensive" offensive word. There is no gray area. You cannot use offensive language and not be offensive to some bystander somewhere.
Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.
Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?
Because when you call someone a faggot, you aren't just offending the person to whom you are speaking, (which is presumably your goal) but you're offending me, the OP, and a lot of other people as well. Calling someone an asshole doesn't have that effect.
Do you not see the hypocrisy in that statement? Who are you to decide which words offend which people?
I didn't decide anything! I just don't know of bystanders being offended by the word "asshole", while I know of many people offended by "faggot". (When not addressed at them) Do you disagree? I know that my anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence but I believe it to be true.
There are people who are offended by curse words in general. I was standing in line having a conversation with a friend(albiet, vulgar conversation which likely included the word asshole) and a lady told me she was offended I was being so rude. The point is that people can be offended by any variety of words and rape is no different. Applying different rules to different words is just setting a double standard.
Well, I say let's try not to offend her either. Everyone is going to have a different point at which they draw the line and decide the requests are ridiculous-- I'm not trying to apply a rule to any words. I just want people to know "lots of people are offended by faggot, rape, etc" and with this knowledge I think fewer people will use those words. If you still want to, it's totally fine.
I think this mostly addresses your post as well aex-- everyone at some point, doesn't care about your sphincter at all and chooses to offend the 62 people with such a terrible, terrible condition. I am taking up this case specifically because I think lots of people use words like faggot and rape, but wouldn't do so if they realized how many people they were offending. If someone know about that, and still wants to use those words, I think no one should force them to do otherwise.
Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.
Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?
Because when you call someone a faggot, you aren't just offending the person to whom you are speaking, (which is presumably your goal) but you're offending me, the OP, and a lot of other people as well. Calling someone an asshole doesn't have that effect.
Do you not see the hypocrisy in that statement? Who are you to decide which words offend which people?
I didn't decide anything! I just don't know of bystanders being offended by the word "asshole", while I know of many people offended by "faggot". (When not addressed at them) Do you disagree? I know that my anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence but I believe it to be true.
To aex: I'm not sure many people who feel about "asshole" as I do about "faggot" exist, but if they did I would certainly try not to use it either. (I'm not even close to perfect wrt not using such words, but I'm trying) People feeling about "faggot" how I do about "asshole" doesn't really make a difference-- obviously not everything is going to offend everyone.
And I don't think anyone is trying to tell people that they can't say whatever they want, and if they are, well they are just wrong. I'm just saying that I'd like it if you didn't use those words, and I think it could lead to some good things for the community.
Ahh, I didn't catch your edit in time. I agree, that if people didn't use offensive language it could lead to some good things for the community, but sometimes it is fun to rile up your opponent and those around you with some good ole' fashion terribly crude smack talk.
Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.
Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?
Because when you call someone a faggot, you aren't just offending the person to whom you are speaking, (which is presumably your goal) but you're offending me, the OP, and a lot of other people as well. Calling someone an asshole doesn't have that effect.
Do you not see the hypocrisy in that statement? Who are you to decide which words offend which people?
I didn't decide anything! I just don't know of bystanders being offended by the word "asshole", while I know of many people offended by "faggot". (When not addressed at them) Do you disagree? I know that my anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence but I believe it to be true.
There are people who are offended by curse words in general. I was standing in line having a conversation with a friend(albiet, vulgar conversation which likely included the word asshole) and a lady told me she was offended I was being so rude. The point is that people can be offended by any variety of words and rape is no different. Applying different rules to different words is just setting a double standard.
If the word asshole offends her maybe she should just lock herself in her house and remove all forms of media.
On August 14 2010 04:01 KwarK wrote: Edit: Stealing a way better example made later in the topic. Beat clearly has a negative meaning in domestic violence. Wife beating and physical child abuse are more common than rape and are extremely damaging. That does not mean we should stop using beat as a synonym for win.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
Agreed. Gamer jargon is the way it is for a reason. When gamers or commentators say rape they mean 'had their way with'. It is an easy to understand meaning and just as easy to say. People who are offended deserve to be.
I think there's a big difference between being directly attacked and indirectly seeing it.
For instance let's take the Chinese word for "that," which is pronounced (in some accents, anyways) "ne-ga." This can be construed to sound like the word "nigga," which can be considered offensive.
When a Chinese person is trying to explain what he wants to do/eat/w/e, he/she may say something like "nega... nega... nega..."
Now let's say a white person walks on by and upon hearing the word is offended. He/she demands for the Chinese person to stop this offensive language.
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote: there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.
This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?
He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions?
The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all.
I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context.
That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it.
OK, well, I propose you do an experiment. In the real world, take ten girls or women that you know -- hopefully not coworkers -- and the next time you want to describe something to them that involves one guy losing out, say that the guy got raped. If they don't mind because they can easily obtain a "very basic understanding of the situation", then I am just wrong and I tip my hat to your accurate assessment of the situation.
But I'm not going to do that experiment, because I know that I would not have very many female friends who still wanted to talk to me after a few trials.
I get the impression the girls you spend time with are very different from the ones I spend time with.
Coming full circle, the single useful point of the OP was that maybe this is true, and maybe more girls would play games if there wasn't a generally accepted culture of raping faggots in chat.
Taking an anecdotal sample of girls I am friends with (none of whom have been raped) I can estimate that this would be a deciding factor for a total of none of them. I cannot even begin to empathise with a level of sensitivity in which a person who would otherwise enthusiastically play a game would choose not to because of a word. Girls really aren't all that different from us real people. We're all here in spite of the offensive nature of the internet (which doesn't exclusively offend girls). We could perhaps give them a little credit.
I'm not offended by jack shit, so it's hard for me to empathize with people who are. But that doesn't seem particularly ridiculous to me. If you're saying that people who make social decisions based on whether people have tact and class, and are thoughtful, or whether they're unnecessarily rude, aren't "real" people for being so sensitive, then sign me up as being a pussy. If I had friends who yammered on about raping faggots in real life, in the presence of other people, I would get new friends, and I'm not even offended by it; I just think it's embarrassing. (I don't care about it online under a pseudonym, because I don't usually have any interest in making friends online.)
I guess it's going to be hard for us to agree, because I don't find that strange at all.
On August 14 2010 09:22 Caller wrote: I think there's a big difference between being directly attacked and indirectly seeing it.
For instance let's take the Chinese word for "that," which is pronounced (in some accents, anyways) "ne-ga." This can be construed to sound like the word "nigga," which can be considered offensive.
When a Chinese person is trying to explain what he wants to do/eat/w/e, he/she may say something like "nega... nega... nega..."
Now let's say a white person walks on by and upon hearing the word is offended. He/she demands for the Chinese person to stop this offensive language.
Who is in the wrong here?
I used to tell my mom she said "nigga nigga nigga" a lot as a kid, and she always got frustrated and said she said no such thing ever and that it was inappropriate ahha.
If we reacted like this to everything life would suck. For those who are affected, sorry but too bad.
edit: i had some older uptight-looking guy rant at me and friends for using "hate speech" all night, we said...damn...and crap i think, we were pretty low key...i think he may have been schizo or just insane.
Uptight people will react that way regardless of what you say, if you tone it down they will just tone it up. if you give ground they will want more.
As for those with trauma, im sorry but i will use those words, i think this video has a good explanation.
On August 14 2010 08:24 IrrasO wrote: there's really not much that anyone can say that won't offend someone else in the world. "yeah man, i totally beat this terran on incineration zone." oh man, i have a friend that is a victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word 'beat', better not use it. "damn, yesterday i totally killed his whole army with just a couple of storms, it was sweet." that's not cool, you can't use that phrase, i have a friend a friend that went to iraq and is totally traumatized from the experience. even though these examples clearly aren't used in the same way that the victims interpret it, doesn't make it any less offensive to them.
This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?
He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions?
The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all.
I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context.
That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it.
OK, well, I propose you do an experiment. In the real world, take ten girls or women that you know -- hopefully not coworkers -- and the next time you want to describe something to them that involves one guy losing out, say that the guy got raped. If they don't mind because they can easily obtain a "very basic understanding of the situation", then I am just wrong and I tip my hat to your accurate assessment of the situation.
But I'm not going to do that experiment, because I know that I would not have very many female friends who still wanted to talk to me after a few trials.
I get the impression the girls you spend time with are very different from the ones I spend time with.
Coming full circle, the single useful point of the OP was that maybe this is true, and maybe more girls would play games if there wasn't a generally accepted culture of raping faggots in chat.
Taking an anecdotal sample of girls I am friends with (none of whom have been raped) I can estimate that this would be a deciding factor for a total of none of them. I cannot even begin to empathise with a level of sensitivity in which a person who would otherwise enthusiastically play a game would choose not to because of a word. Girls really aren't all that different from us real people. We're all here in spite of the offensive nature of the internet (which doesn't exclusively offend girls). We could perhaps give them a little credit.
I'm not offended by jack shit, so it's hard for me to empathize with people who are. But that doesn't seem particularly ridiculous to me. If you're saying that people who make social decisions based on whether people have tact and class, and are thoughtful, or whether they're unnecessarily rude, aren't "real" people for being so sensitive, then sign me up as being a pussy. If I had friends who yammered on about raping faggots in real life, in the presence of other people, I would get new friends, and I'm not even offended by it; I just think it's embarrassing. (I don't care about it online under a pseudonym, because I don't usually have any interest in making friends online.)
I guess it's going to be hard for us to agree, because I don't find that strange at all.
My use of the words real people was intended to suggest that rather than girls being some alien being with unique issues who should treated carefully they're pretty much like everyone else. If you're capable of dealing with the internet then most girls probably are too.
On August 14 2010 09:22 Caller wrote: I think there's a big difference between being directly attacked and indirectly seeing it.
For instance let's take the Chinese word for "that," which is pronounced (in some accents, anyways) "ne-ga." This can be construed to sound like the word "nigga," which can be considered offensive.
When a Chinese person is trying to explain what he wants to do/eat/w/e, he/she may say something like "nega... nega... nega..."
Now let's say a white person walks on by and upon hearing the word is offended. He/she demands for the Chinese person to stop this offensive language.
Who is in the wrong here?
When something happens, you don't have to point at someone and tell them they are in the wrong. The white guy is a little bit ignorant, he'd probably be happier if he was less nosy, and he's a stubborn bastard too if the Chinese fellow explains it and he's still irritated. But nobody has committed some mortal sin here. The white guy has the God-given right to be offended at whatever the hell he wants, and the Chinese guy can feel free to go on not giving a shit until the day he dies.
On August 14 2010 07:13 toadstool wrote: Let's take Merry Christmas and Santa Clause out of our culture and Starcraft 2 as well!
because ... God forbid...
Somebody might get offended!
We are not talking about somebody. We are talking about aprox 50% or something of the worlds population (women). Go ask your mother or your sister if she feels offended about you using the word rape repeatedly on the internetz. Then ask them if they have a problem with Santa Clause....
So how do you think you handled that argument? Only women can get raped? I bet all the men who have been raped are offended by that statement.
Do you see what you are doing? By restricting other peoples use of words you are even offending people with your own words. There is nothing anybody can say that someone can't find offensive. Just stop trying to make people say things that YOU can tolerate.
Exactly. You are making a very broad statement by saying EVERY woman in the world would be offended by the word rape.
Your mother and your sister might get offended. But my mom and sister might not be offended. They'll just shrug and be whatever, and go wash the dishes or something.
On August 14 2010 09:25 KwarK wrote: My use of the words real people was intended to suggest that rather than girls being some alien being with unique issues who should treated carefully they're pretty much like everyone else. If you're capable of dealing with the internet then most girls probably are too.
Well, if you really want to go down that route, I'd be happy to claim that many guys probably stay away from gamers who frequently do the rape-faggot-nigger thing too. However, I suspect that more guys tend to think that sort of language is macho and edgy, and don't mind tolerating it or adopting it themselves.
Just playing devil's advocate here, so don't take it the wrong way, I just want you to think about it.
Why is it OK to use the word asshole and not faggot? Both are offensive words. Is it because one offends some people more than the other? Isn't that the point of using an insult... to offend people? Wouldn't that make the more offensive word a more potent insult, thus accomplishing the goal one has set out for?
Because when you call someone a faggot, you aren't just offending the person to whom you are speaking, (which is presumably your goal) but you're offending me, the OP, and a lot of other people as well. Calling someone an asshole doesn't have that effect.
Do you not see the hypocrisy in that statement? Who are you to decide which words offend which people?
I didn't decide anything! I just don't know of bystanders being offended by the word "asshole", while I know of many people offended by "faggot". (When not addressed at them) Do you disagree? I know that my anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence but I believe it to be true.
There are people who are offended by curse words in general. I was standing in line having a conversation with a friend(albiet, vulgar conversation which likely included the word asshole) and a lady told me she was offended I was being so rude. The point is that people can be offended by any variety of words and rape is no different. Applying different rules to different words is just setting a double standard.
Well, I say let's try not to offend her either. Everyone is going to have a different point at which they draw the line and decide the requests are ridiculous-- I'm not trying to apply a rule to any words. I just want people to know "lots of people are offended by faggot, rape, etc" and with this knowledge I think fewer people will use those words. If you still want to, it's totally fine.
I think this mostly addresses your post as well aex-- everyone at some point, doesn't care about your sphincter at all and chooses to offend the 62 people with such a terrible, terrible condition. I am taking up this case specifically because I think lots of people use words like faggot and rape, but wouldn't do so if they realized how many people they were offending. If someone know about that, and still wants to use those words, I think no one should force them to do otherwise.
Also yeah I edit a lot >_<
I don't have a problem with wanting people to be courteous, but I think everyone would be so much happier if they didn't get offended by things not directed at them. I understand that shit happens and people have emotional reactions to things. I just hate how with the propagation of political correctness everyone seems to have some expection of a right not to be offended.
I don't see this guy talking about how gamers love "nigger". Just stfu and don't take it so fucking seriously. If a girl got raped?-who seriously gives a fuck. What do you do to a girl whose been raped; put her up on a pedastool? S.T.F.U. If you said "haha i just abused that kid". And your best friend freaks out because he was beaten as a child should we stop using ALL INSULTS ON THE INTERNET? This was a pointless read imHo.
If a girl may be present, then I wouldn't say "rape." If I know it's just guys, then I could care less. As for stuff like "gay..." unless I'm directly talking to one then I really wouldn't care. For instance, if gays started using "straight" in a derogatory way, then I would have to be an idiot to get worked up over it. Who cares?
Luckly most of the world and the internet doesn't have to abide by such ideas of avoiding the use of words we do not like. While I can understand why you and others would not want to use the word and its not even a phrase I use I'll fight for a persons right to say it. You can get offended that's fine but don't expect the world or people to bend around to please you. It's just not how I feel things should work. *shrug* However feel free to plug in the phrase "complete and total parnage" when demeaning a player. I think it has a good ring to it.
On August 14 2010 08:33 catamorphist wrote: [quote]
This doesn't make any sense as an argument about whether to use the word "rape." You don't have a friend that is the victim of domestic abuse that shudders at the word "beat," and if you did, and if you actually gave a shit about him, you would probably try not to use the word in front of him. So what's your point?
He is quite clearly equating the double meaning of rape with the double meaning of beat. Both have useful meanings in gaming and both can refer to terrible acts that emotionally scar people. By presenting the two side by side he hopes to demonstrate the absurdity of asking people not to use a word because it can be misunderstood. Most people would accept that beat is a legitimate word, despite victims of domestic abuse, and he uses that to demonstrate that the same should apply for rape. Any questions?
The question is what that has to do with anything except an English lesson. Whether or not "rape" "can be misunderstood" is beside the point, because the majority of the population of the English-speaking world misunderstands it -- it's not a hypothetical! If you think a lot of people misunderstand "beat" as well, then maybe you should reconsider using "beat," if you don't want them to misunderstand you. Personally, I've never met anyone who is offended by the word "beat", so it's not exactly a convincing example of anything at all.
I don't accept your premise that people fail to understand the meaning of the word rape as used in gaming. All you need is a very basic understanding of the situation and game in question to work out that firstly, a sexual rape is unlikely to be occuring, and that secondly the term is used whenever one player significantly outplays another. Therefore I propose that the vast majority of the English speaking world understand the meaning of the word rape as it pertains to gaming and those that don't can rapidly work it out when seeing it within its context.
That brings us to the second part of the issue. If people who know that the word means something completely different to a sexual assault on a person should still get offended to it.
OK, well, I propose you do an experiment. In the real world, take ten girls or women that you know -- hopefully not coworkers -- and the next time you want to describe something to them that involves one guy losing out, say that the guy got raped. If they don't mind because they can easily obtain a "very basic understanding of the situation", then I am just wrong and I tip my hat to your accurate assessment of the situation.
But I'm not going to do that experiment, because I know that I would not have very many female friends who still wanted to talk to me after a few trials.
I get the impression the girls you spend time with are very different from the ones I spend time with.
Coming full circle, the single useful point of the OP was that maybe this is true, and maybe more girls would play games if there wasn't a generally accepted culture of raping faggots in chat.
Taking an anecdotal sample of girls I am friends with (none of whom have been raped) I can estimate that this would be a deciding factor for a total of none of them. I cannot even begin to empathise with a level of sensitivity in which a person who would otherwise enthusiastically play a game would choose not to because of a word. Girls really aren't all that different from us real people. We're all here in spite of the offensive nature of the internet (which doesn't exclusively offend girls). We could perhaps give them a little credit.
I'm not offended by jack shit, so it's hard for me to empathize with people who are. But that doesn't seem particularly ridiculous to me. If you're saying that people who make social decisions based on whether people have tact and class, and are thoughtful, or whether they're unnecessarily rude, aren't "real" people for being so sensitive, then sign me up as being a pussy. If I had friends who yammered on about raping faggots in real life, in the presence of other people, I would get new friends, and I'm not even offended by it; I just think it's embarrassing. (I don't care about it online under a pseudonym, because I don't usually have any interest in making friends online.)
I guess it's going to be hard for us to agree, because I don't find that strange at all.
My use of the words real people was intended to suggest that rather than girls being some alien being with unique issues who should treated carefully they're pretty much like everyone else. If you're capable of dealing with the internet then most girls probably are too.
I'm sorry, but I had to smile a bit at the ones trying to argue with "if we wouldn't say 'rape' there'd be more gurls on the internets/gaming scene". Would you want random girls in the locker room after your [insert any sports]-game while you're celebrating with your teammates or cursing like mad depending on whether you lost or won? Maybe you'd be cool with certain ones, those who don't get offended by graphic language and testosterone filled atmosphere, but oh wait, these kinda girls are already on the internet and some of them take part in the gaming scene. I wouldn't want hundreds or thousands of random chicks invading TL, making it a less manlier place. Look at what happens when NeverGG goes on one of her oestrogen trips rofl
On August 14 2010 09:22 Caller wrote: I think there's a big difference between being directly attacked and indirectly seeing it.
For instance let's take the Chinese word for "that," which is pronounced (in some accents, anyways) "ne-ga." This can be construed to sound like the word "nigga," which can be considered offensive.
When a Chinese person is trying to explain what he wants to do/eat/w/e, he/she may say something like "nega... nega... nega..."
Now let's say a white person walks on by and upon hearing the word is offended. He/she demands for the Chinese person to stop this offensive language.
Who is in the wrong here?
When something happens, you don't have to point at someone and tell them they are in the wrong. The white guy is a little bit ignorant, he'd probably be happier if he was less nosy, and he's a stubborn bastard too if the Chinese fellow explains it and he's still irritated. But nobody has committed some mortal sin here. The white guy has the God-given right to be offended at whatever the hell he wants, and the Chinese guy can feel free to go on not giving a shit until the day he dies.
Never have really liked the use of this word, but it also doesn't have to mean forced sexual intercourse so I just convince myself it's talking about pillaging and plundering the countryside!
Well I hate to come off as callous and a complete asshole, but my personal philosophy is that language only has whatever meaning you assign to it. When people use the term "rape" as in to "utterly own their opponent", that is just them using language to communicate their apparent superiority.
Yes, words have the meaning we assign to them. What you, in your "callous and a complete asshole" fortress fail to realize is that different people assign different meanings to them.
If you intend to communicate concept A to someone, but use a word that the other person interprets as communicates concept B, you have failed to communicate. As the person doing the communicating, it is your responsibility to understand the person to whom you're communicating (whether deliberately or accidentally), so that you can use the proper words and thus be properly understood.
Here's the simple fact: if you use the word "rape" in the context of a competitive victory, then you are saying more than just A dominated B. You are saying that sexual assault is as important and serious a matter as a sport. You're saying that sexual assault isn't particularly important, and victims of actual rape should just do what victims of videogame rape do: walk it off and try again.
I know that you (probably) don't mean to say these things. But what you mean to say is irrelevant; only what you actually say matters. Just like what you intend to do doesn't make up for not doing it.
So if you do not wish to communicate this idea, then use the proper words to communicate exactly what you want and nothing more.
I understand it can upset some people, but there are certain points where I'm going to stop worrying about things for fear of hurting certain minority of peoples.
Right. Because the thing that people who have been raped need to feel is victimized by society itself. They need society to constantly tell them that the crime perpetrated against their body is equivalent to someone beating someone else in a videogame.
That should put their rape in perspective.
On August 14 2010 04:08 xbankx wrote: Its too embbed to the gaming culture to be removed so its pointless.
Its like say "man dt rushes is so gay". I tried to stop but I couldn't stop using the word gay either. Everyone knows what the actual word means and what gamer definition means. Now if you got someone who is gay or who has been raped then don't use it in front of them. Also remember not to use retarded because that is a word that can affect the mentally challenged. We can keep going on. There is no end... Find this post's idea is right but pointless.
No end? Really?
Alternatives to Retarded: weak, pathetic, idiotic, foolish, vapid, witless, etc.
Alternatives to Gay: see Retarded.
You say you can't stop using the word gay as a pejorative? It's a habit you shouldn't have started, and it is entirely within your own power to stop. Unless you're saying that you're such a slave to peer pressure and the need to conform
In which case, I have to ask you a question: are you in fact a human being, blessed with the gift of free will? Or should you be considered an automaton, a base animal, and therefore not responsible for his actions, but simultaneously not worthy of the rights given to actual human beings? With rights come responsibility.
There's an end. If each one of us chooses to abandon these words in favor of other, perfectly functional ones, then this won't be an issue. It is our responsibility as reasonable people to choose what we say, to say what we mean, and only what we mean.
On August 14 2010 09:35 Parnage wrote: Luckly most of the world and the internet doesn't have to abide by such ideas of avoiding the use of words we do not like. While I can understand why you and others would not want to use the word and its not even a phrase I use I'll fight for a persons right to say it. You can get offended that's fine but don't expect the world or people to bend around to please you. It's just not how I feel things should work. *shrug* However feel free to plug in the phrase "complete and total parnage" when demeaning a player. I think it has a good ring to it.
That's completely irrelevant of what he's asking. Stop turning this into a rights issue. It's not.
On August 14 2010 07:23 PanN wrote: The English language is constantly evolving, not always for the best, but it is. A word like "rape" shouldn't be offensive when used in the terms of owning someone etc in a videogame, because thats what that word means in that setting. Multiple other examples but whatever.
This.
I can understand this argument, but why don't sports casters ever use words like retarded or gay? Are gamers less mature than sports fans? No, but the word was able to slip by because of the low restrictions we've had on online speech.
I doubt we can remove words like "gay" used as "stupid" from everyday vernacular, but commentators at least, should not use them.
Anyways, I find how this thread has grown kind of sad too, I'd rather some more entertaining thread were growing like this. I liked coming by TL to chill.
Guess you missed my posts because I already addressed this. A simple search should suffice.
I hate it when people act all arrogant like everything they say is absolute truth and therefore if I don't agree with what you've said, I've missed it.
On August 14 2010 05:59 Phyrion wrote: The main point I take away from the OP is this:
If we want to see ESports come to the West, we have to adhere to the same standards of language that is on public TV sports. I would love to see Starcraft II Tournaments shown on TV and make into the mainstream just like football or soccer or basketball.
I have never once heard a football commentator say "JESUS CHRIST did you see that pass?" Or a basketball commentator say "That was the longest fucking three pointer I have ever seen!" "GOD he is raping the other team all by himself!"
If we continue to use the words rape, faggot, Jesus Christ to commentate games, we will never move ESports to any major network ever. Having read this thread and seeing that most gamers don't care too much about others feelings and sensitivity to certain words and phrases, ESports will never make it in the West.
Here's the problem with that. We're talking about amateur sport. What the caster's do on their own streams is their business. It isn't professional. Get that through your head. Sure, they might take it seriously, but the thing is many of us don't. It's something we do in our leisure time for shits, giggles and entertainment purposes. You are taking things out of context. It's purely situational.
Many gamers here don't feel the necessity, correction. Let me rephrase that. Don't want, or need to be taken seriously.
This whole crusade is ridiculous.
Perhaps you've missed out on the point that commentators whether professional or not try to cater to as large a crowd as possible. As such they should try to be as politically correct as possible unless their stream is aimed at being politically incorrect.
And maybe you should get through your head that the post you were addressing is focused on commentators and not what gamers do. Acting like he is talking about gamers is just taking things out of context. Day9 has sponsorships, do you think his sponsors would like hearing him use the word rape in every commentary? Do you think that if commentators ever did make it on TV outside Korea it would be ok for them to use vulgar language?
I'm trying to be offensive here because I'm trying to show a point: your style of writing is rather condescending.
meh, people who use words like 'rape' 'gay' etc in lieu of more p.c. terms are just victims of isolation, i dropped the word 'gay' from my lexicon the minute i had openly gay friends, including my roommate in college. i'm glad to see a push to get this word removed though, i've noticed a lot of casters actively removing it (see: quake live casters saying "conversion frag" instead of "spawn rape"). i'm always impressed by the zeal at which gamers defend bad behavior.
Quite the explosive thread, probably means this was overdue here.
Instead of arguing the merits of self-censorship, which generally has lead nowhere except towards a battle of crappy metaphors and ridiculous hypothetical situations, I'd be interested to hear from anyone who previously used the word rape consistently in their games, but will now try to use it less or not at all.
Unfortunately, to do so, you'll probably have to admit to yourself that you were being inexcusably insensitive all along, moreover, you were being insensitive to the degree that the OP makes you out to be at the start of this. This is probably why many people here try to justify it as the culture and free speech. Sure, they're being somewhat insensitive to rape victims, homosexuals, black people, jews, etc. by using slurs and slang in their gaming, they know it, we know it. If you want people to change, however, you really have to make it easy for them mentally, and this is where the OP and many other people who support his views are failing and being hypocritical. Who honestly likes being told what they can and cannot say? Or likes feeling judged for what they say and do?
On August 14 2010 03:56 SpicyCrab wrote:
So this is just an open letter to TL and really all of gaming. Stop using this word, there are many substitutes which are much less abhorrent. Please understand that rape is a real problem, a real issue, and that it is an emotionally charged word that can cause real emotional damage to those who hear.
There is no justification and no excuse for the use of this word in the flippant way that it is thrown around. Just stop.
TO BE CLEAR (Since MANY TLers seem to have misunderstood): I am not saying you should be banned for using the word, I am not trying to police your use of the word, I am only asking that you be more mindful of your use of the word and perhaps think twice before you doing so because of the pain and suffering it can cause people and because it makes our community look like a bunch of IDIOTS. That is all.
By saying there's no justification and no excuse, you're lecturing people much like their parents would, except here, we really don't have to give a damn what you have to say. Also, you're being hypocritical in declaring that you're not trying to police people's use of the word, yet you're trying to judge these unjustified, inexcusable idiots into agreeing with you. Let people judge themselves, unless you really feel like you can be "The guy who saved all the TLers by preaching the righteous way of being."
So, to anyone who wants people to stop using words like "rape," think about how you'd like to be told. I wouldn't try to attack people and force them to believe or do what I want; otherwise, are you really better than the rapists themselves?
On August 14 2010 07:23 PanN wrote: The English language is constantly evolving, not always for the best, but it is. A word like "rape" shouldn't be offensive when used in the terms of owning someone etc in a videogame, because thats what that word means in that setting. Multiple other examples but whatever.
This.
I can understand this argument, but why don't sports casters ever use words like retarded or gay? Are gamers less mature than sports fans? No, but the word was able to slip by because of the low restrictions we've had on online speech.
I doubt we can remove words like "gay" used as "stupid" from everyday vernacular, but commentators at least, should not use them.
Anyways, I find how this thread has grown kind of sad too, I'd rather some more entertaining thread were growing like this. I liked coming by TL to chill.
Guess you missed my posts because I already addressed this. A simple search should suffice.
I hate it when people act all arrogant like everything they say is absolute truth and therefore if I don't agree with what you've said, I've missed it.
On August 14 2010 05:59 Phyrion wrote: The main point I take away from the OP is this:
If we want to see ESports come to the West, we have to adhere to the same standards of language that is on public TV sports. I would love to see Starcraft II Tournaments shown on TV and make into the mainstream just like football or soccer or basketball.
I have never once heard a football commentator say "JESUS CHRIST did you see that pass?" Or a basketball commentator say "That was the longest fucking three pointer I have ever seen!" "GOD he is raping the other team all by himself!"
If we continue to use the words rape, faggot, Jesus Christ to commentate games, we will never move ESports to any major network ever. Having read this thread and seeing that most gamers don't care too much about others feelings and sensitivity to certain words and phrases, ESports will never make it in the West.
Here's the problem with that. We're talking about amateur sport. What the caster's do on their own streams is their business. It isn't professional. Get that through your head. Sure, they might take it seriously, but the thing is many of us don't. It's something we do in our leisure time for shits, giggles and entertainment purposes. You are taking things out of context. It's purely situational.
Many gamers here don't feel the necessity, correction. Let me rephrase that. Don't want, or need to be taken seriously.
This whole crusade is ridiculous.
Perhaps you've missed out on the point that commentators whether professional or not try to cater to as large a crowd as possible. As such they should try to be as politically correct as possible unless their stream is aimed at being politically incorrect.
And maybe you should get through your head that the post you were addressing is focused on commentators and not what gamers do. Acting like he is talking about gamers is just taking things out of context. Day9 has sponsorships, do you think his sponsors would like hearing him use the word rape in every commentary? Do you think that if commentators ever did make it on TV outside Korea it would be ok for them to use vulgar language?
I'm trying to be offensive here because I'm trying to show a point: your style of writing is rather condescending.
What? You're telling amateur streamers what they should do with their own stream? If they aren't getting paid to be professional by someone else and aren't being employed or asked to promote a particular image, then they shouldn't have to. Stop telling people what they should to.
Political correctness now when people are just doing things in their leisure time? Amazing.
I support your cause, OP, if that matters. I also dislike the word "own", as human slavery has been abolished and there is nothing honorable in owning other people. Yes, in gaming none of these words mean what they literally mean, but then why use them? Other disliked: "retarded", "pimp" plays etc. I use them, as long as I realize at some point it's part of the normal flow of communication within some culture of its own kind, but I don't forget that a majority of the slang phrases have horrible original meaning which shouldn't be tossed around lightly. At least I have that in mind, while using them.
let stop using the word Kill then as well... because I know someone who got killed and we use it like it means nothing. I killed 5 zerglings... You murdered something. Use a new word, Kill doesn't belong in games...
Nice OP. I self-consciously realized how I was using the word some time ago, I still think it sometimes, but there are many other words that capture the same meaning.
There will always be people using the word, of course, but I applaud the OP in raising awareness of the connotations of this word, and how we play a role in trivializing it in our community. Hopefully you've helped convince people to change their thinking.
On August 14 2010 10:25 HeaveNTiMe wrote: let stop using the word Kill then as well... because I know someone who got killed and we use it like it means nothing. I killed 5 zerglings... You murdered something. Use a new word, Kill doesn't belong in games...
yes, sarcasm. Thats why we should keep rape.
Whereas I can prove to you that in starcraft, my goal is to kill all your units, and destroy your base, I doubt you can show me that starcraft has anything to do with rape.
On August 14 2010 04:06 FabledIntegral wrote: It's connotatively completely different. I understand it can upset some people, but there are certain points where I'm going to stop worrying about things for fear of hurting certain minority of peoples. Honestly, this is just another thread preaching political correctness. While I think it has its merits, I think we've all gone overboard on trying to prevent people from having to moderate everything they say because it might be offensive.
There is no justification and no excuse for the use of this word in the flippant way that it is thrown around.
The fact that it is used in a flippant way completely changes the meaning of the word.
When you tell someone you owned or pwned him, no one's going to say: "Hey that's fucking disrespectful to the millions of people who are the victims of human smugglers, or the slaves of yesteryear". Why? Because that's simply not what the word refers to.
On August 14 2010 10:26 tree.hugger wrote: Nice OP. I self-consciously realized how I was using the word some time ago, I still think it sometimes, but there are many other words that capture the same meaning.
There will always be people using the word, of course, but I applaud the OP in raising awareness of the connotations of this word, and how we play a role in trivializing it in our community. Hopefully you've helped convince people to change their thinking.
On August 14 2010 10:25 HeaveNTiMe wrote: let stop using the word Kill then as well... because I know someone who got killed and we use it like it means nothing. I killed 5 zerglings... You murdered something. Use a new word, Kill doesn't belong in games...
yes, sarcasm. Thats why we should keep rape.
Whereas I can prove to you that in starcraft, my goal is to kill all your units, and destroy your base, I doubt you can show me that starcraft has anything to do with rape.
When you destroy an enemy expansion and build your own expansion on it, you're raping his expansion.
You have a valid point OP, but you must realize that language is a constantly evolving entity. I used to stand for the same position that you have taken, but then I realized that a vast majority of the population of those I communicate with really do understand the context and meaning in the gamer sense.
I'm fairly suprised this is such an active topic, is it not fairly obvious, without need to analyse, discuss or consider that metaphorical use of the word "rape" in a gamer setting is fairly innocuous and that the idea that it somehow demeans the seriousness, or even encourages//glamorises rape itself is ludicrous.
I guess you could make an argument about how fairly young children become desensitised to vulgar language or explicit ideas in gaming culture and this might be used to support such a claim but thats about the extent of it.
On August 14 2010 04:17 choboPEon wrote: This is nothing like the word niggardly being called racist because thats fucking stupid but associating the word rape with sexual assault is so completely understandable that it boggles the mind that someone would deny it.
how is that at all understandable when you're watching a sc2 cast
you have to purposely LACK understanding to not get that the word is being used differently
Because niggardly means something completely different from nigger
but rape means rape
Unfortunately rape does not simply mean rape. –verb (used with object) 6. to force to have sexual intercourse. 7. to plunder (a place); despoil. 8. to seize, take, or carry off by force.
When you rape someones base then the logical application of the verb would be definition 7, to plunder or despoil. Choosing to misinterpret it with definition 6, despite it being clearly absurd when applied to a collection of buildings, is just bad english. Words in english have multiple meanings in different contexts.
alright this is getting contentious and, again, i know im not going to win any converts so i wont linger in this thread for too much longer.
i will respond to this, though: "Words in english have multiple meanings in different contexts." And often the meanings are connected, they do not exist in a vacuum and, again, for you to claim that when people say rape in a gaming sense that there is no connection to definition #6 seems ridiculous to me! but whatever, it's not like i shed a tear every time i read it, i'm as numb to it as most males 18-35 are.
It isnt ridiculous. The English language is (again/still^^) "influencing" other languages. Look at poker - we talk about a "Full House", a "Flush", or a "Straight" in German. When I hear "rape" in a gaming environment I honestly do not think about the sexual forcing. There is no connection.
If I hear "rape" in another context though - I think about the fitting translation.
English is the language we gamers communicate in - but I, personally, and a lot of other foreigners adapt those words without considering their "normal" meaning. Though I dislike the word "rape" (because I think it is too strong) I often say to friends (in German): "Ich habe ihn owned" for "I owned him". Owned is no longer a word I have to translate - the meaning is clear to me & my friends. I could also say "I habe ihn geraped" for "I raped him" and we all knew what I meant. And we wouldnt think about something bad / negative while using the word.
And a german girl would never be offended if I use the word "rape" in the german language - if I'd use it's translation on the other hand - I'm not so sure So I do understand your point - but I honestly doubt we can change this. There are too many gamers who use the word "rape" but dont associate it with the meaning a rape-victim would do.
I agree with your concept that using "rape" may be inappropriate for casting and such. However I have a problem with someone omitting a word simply because others find it offensive. From what you are saying we have to change to accommodate their needs, however I believe they need to overcome their own experiences and not force others speak a certain way to alleviate that pain.
I find the words death, dead, die, kill, and murder all offensive. My grandfather has passed away. No one should ever use these words because they offend me.
It's kind of funny, back in grade school when wc was coming out my friend called it rapecraft, and that's all I knew about this funny game that wasn't for nintendo. Rapecraft is an important part of my childhood, don't take it away from me!
It's all about context. In most everyday situations I would avoid using the word (never use it really, just making a point here) simply because it sounds indecent and, of course, potentially could offend/hurt people. And I don't want to do that unless I have my reasons.
Being mindful about contexts go both ways though. People who catch the word "rape" in a starcraft commentary for instance really shouldn't get offended because the intention of to the usage is completely different. Hassling gamers for their usage of the word is neither righteous nor very understanding at all. But of course we can cut people some slack if they are emotionally hurt, so I wouldn't confront them on that err, and would certainly avoid using the word around them again.
But really, it is not like you are helping anyone by avoiding that word. A rape victim will recall the gruesome experience again and again whether or not confronted by casual usage of "rape", so the beef they/other might have with the word is all about showing respect (or the lack of it), and here context is everything. As long "rape" is used in a totally different context without the intention of hurting, it's not morally wrong. That doesn't mean professional casters and other public figures shouldn't avoid it - part of being a public face is working on a clean and gracious conduct.
Absolutely agree with the OP. Thanks for posting that.
I remember seeing a front page article that used the word 'rape' in it. It was honestly a bit shocking. I kind of expect to see 'rape' thrown around on the forums, but I was caught off guard that what I think of as so inappropriate a term to use, would be used by the writing staff here. I don't hold it against the writers, but it really just goes to show how prevalent the term is in this culture.
I think targeting the specific word 'rape' is a mistake. As has been said above rape has more then one meaning depending on the context (Definition). I disagree with not using the word because of one of it's meanings and will continue to use rape in my vocabulary within the right context.
But I agree with casters and players not using any vulgar language in a public forum (broader sense of the word then just a web forum) as they are the face of e-sport in the west and foul language is another barrier to becoming a main stream entertainment. I personally swear like a sailor but there is no reason alienating what little support we can gather in the west with language some may find offensive.
you could say the same thing about the word owned. Anyone who was a slave is offended and reminded of when they were owned. Black people all over the US are turning in their graves.
The problem with using words like "own" or "beat" as an example for how the word "rape" is regarded in gaming culture is that "own" and "beat" are words with very general meanings while "rape" specifically means sexual intercourse without consent.
Yes, words can change intrinsic meanings in different contexts. Two young African Americans calling each other "nigger" is more or less socially acceptable. If I called either one of them a "nigger" I'd probably get beaten to a pulp.
However, "nigger" cannot be compared to "rape" because "nigger" possesses an enormous cultural scaffold to back it, while "rape" does not. Truly, the gamers are the minority in this sense.
On August 14 2010 11:21 CharlieMurphy wrote: you could say the same thing about the word owned. Anyone who was a slave is offended and reminded of when they were owned. Black people all over the US are turning in their graves.
"Own" is a word that can be applied to many things. I can "own" a desk lamp. The term CharlieMurphy is looking for is probably "enslaved". But gamers will never say that they "enslaved" some noob. Too many syllables.
On August 14 2010 11:21 CharlieMurphy wrote: you could say the same thing about the word owned. Anyone who was a slave is offended and reminded of when they were owned. Black people all over the US are turning in their graves.
I dont understand why people keep using the word owned as an example when its implications are broader and more abstract. Owned in gaming terms in no way intentionally or unintentionally makes connections to slavery. Its semantic impetus comes from "to seize something completely, to hit the spot" whereas "rape" specifically evokes sexual violation. This has been covered many times throughout the thread
On August 14 2010 11:21 CharlieMurphy wrote: you could say the same thing about the word owned. Anyone who was a slave is offended and reminded of when they were owned. Black people all over the US are turning in their graves.
So many people are saying this. Slavery was abolished hundreds of years ago and there are, I believe, very few people in the developed nations who were slaves in their lifetime.
There are thousands of victims of rape living in my country alone. You cannot compare the use of the words 'owned' and 'raped' for their impact. It makes no sense at all to me.
How many 30 page threads are there arguing the morality of using the word owned? That alone tells you that this is a much more charged issue and is trivialised by people saying 'owned isn't offensive so niether is rape' or 'people are offended by christmas, so should I stop saying that?'. Does Christmas devastate peoples emotional well being for their lifetime? Really?!?!
On August 14 2010 11:13 howerpower wrote: I'm so tired of people getting offended over everything, its childish and immature.
Yeah man, rape victims should just get over it. Sheesh. O_o
To be fair, that is a lot worse than it sounds. In this case it wouldn't be to "get over" the rape event, but rather get over being affected by simply hearing a term related to your traumatic incident, which is more reasonable.
I already stated my position, which is basically "try to avoid it out of politeness, but nothing wrong" , but just saying. Sometimes its too tempting to use the shock and sympathy factor in these debates.
On August 14 2010 11:21 CharlieMurphy wrote: you could say the same thing about the word owned. Anyone who was a slave is offended and reminded of when they were owned. Black people all over the US are turning in their graves.
So many people are saying this. Slavery was abolished hundreds of years ago and there are, I believe, very few people in the developed nations who were slaves in their lifetime.
There are thousands of victims of rape living in my country alone. You cannot compare the use of the words 'owned' and 'raped' for their impact. It makes no sense at all to me.
How many 30 page threads are there arguing the morality of using the word owned? That alone tells you that this is a much more charged issue and is trivialised by people saying 'owned isn't offensive so niether is rape' or 'people are offended by christmas, so should I stop saying that?'. Does Christmas devastate peoples emotional well being for their lifetime? Really?!?!
No, but neither does the word rape. It is the act that cripple people, not the word. You point is mote, imo, but I do agree "owned" is totally different and nowhere near as emotionally laden.
1. It's not that it's hard to use "rape" less. It's that "rape" isn't the only thing I say that offends someone. Every insult known to man is discriminatory by definition. It characterizes certain things as being inferior to others.
2. Now I can spend all my time just speaking rainbows and sunshine, but this, in truth, reduces my ability to communicate. Discriminatory speech is part of language. It is absolutely necessary.
3. Because of 1 and 2, I have a conundrum. What is absolutely necessary is also absolutely offensive. I must be offensive to someone. Accepting this, the choice then, is what language to use in what situation. If I knew it bothered someone I cared about? Sure, I'd tone it down (provided I wasn't trying to bother them) If it didn't? Why would I stop?
4. So far, nobody has informed me I am offending them by using the word rape. This includes females, rape victims, and etc.
What I will not do is pre-screen everything I say, cease to say some things that I wish to say, on the supposition that someone (a random someone) may be offended. If you are offended by something I do, you owe me at least a personal request to cease my offensive behaviour. If an agreement cannot be reached, then both parties have the right to take their conversation elsewhere.
I think this is both the polite and correct way to ensure that both parties interests are represented.
Otherwise, we'll be considering words like "retard" and "idiot." Think of the children.. er, the actually retarded people, and the actual idiots! We're using the words, so that must offend them for some reason, although we are in no actual way insulting them or threatening to do anything to them.
What a fucking shitty OP. Sorry, but that sounds like it's coming from one of those "you may not use foul words or else you will become dumb" idiots.
Yeah, the word rape might be special to some people. So what the flying fuck? So do the words "gay", "owned" (slavery) etc. It's ridiculous. In that context, people couldn't ever swear about anything becaues some people have mental problems with any word.
On August 14 2010 07:23 PanN wrote: The English language is constantly evolving, not always for the best, but it is. A word like "rape" shouldn't be offensive when used in the terms of owning someone etc in a videogame, because thats what that word means in that setting. Multiple other examples but whatever.
This.
I can understand this argument, but why don't sports casters ever use words like retarded or gay? Are gamers less mature than sports fans? No, but the word was able to slip by because of the low restrictions we've had on online speech.
I doubt we can remove words like "gay" used as "stupid" from everyday vernacular, but commentators at least, should not use them.
Anyways, I find how this thread has grown kind of sad too, I'd rather some more entertaining thread were growing like this. I liked coming by TL to chill.
Guess you missed my posts because I already addressed this. A simple search should suffice.
I hate it when people act all arrogant like everything they say is absolute truth and therefore if I don't agree with what you've said, I've missed it.
On August 14 2010 05:59 Phyrion wrote: The main point I take away from the OP is this:
If we want to see ESports come to the West, we have to adhere to the same standards of language that is on public TV sports. I would love to see Starcraft II Tournaments shown on TV and make into the mainstream just like football or soccer or basketball.
I have never once heard a football commentator say "JESUS CHRIST did you see that pass?" Or a basketball commentator say "That was the longest fucking three pointer I have ever seen!" "GOD he is raping the other team all by himself!"
If we continue to use the words rape, faggot, Jesus Christ to commentate games, we will never move ESports to any major network ever. Having read this thread and seeing that most gamers don't care too much about others feelings and sensitivity to certain words and phrases, ESports will never make it in the West.
Here's the problem with that. We're talking about amateur sport. What the caster's do on their own streams is their business. It isn't professional. Get that through your head. Sure, they might take it seriously, but the thing is many of us don't. It's something we do in our leisure time for shits, giggles and entertainment purposes. You are taking things out of context. It's purely situational.
Many gamers here don't feel the necessity, correction. Let me rephrase that. Don't want, or need to be taken seriously.
This whole crusade is ridiculous.
Perhaps you've missed out on the point that commentators whether professional or not try to cater to as large a crowd as possible. As such they should try to be as politically correct as possible unless their stream is aimed at being politically incorrect.
And maybe you should get through your head that the post you were addressing is focused on commentators and not what gamers do. Acting like he is talking about gamers is just taking things out of context. Day9 has sponsorships, do you think his sponsors would like hearing him use the word rape in every commentary? Do you think that if commentators ever did make it on TV outside Korea it would be ok for them to use vulgar language?
I'm trying to be offensive here because I'm trying to show a point: your style of writing is rather condescending.
I addressed both you schmuck. Who is to say what a commentator can and cannot say in their own stream? Needless to say this changes when your paycheck comes from a network like NBC. Then they have the right to filter you. We're talking about amateurs! AMATEURS. Put it into perspective. The guy's post I was addressing pointed directly at Professional sport. You need a quick reality check. Sean Plott's cast started from the ground up. It's his baby boy and no one else owns it. Wow, some people.
-_-
Me = arrogant? Yeah, that's a good laugh. There's a difference between fact and fiction. Your ideas of ownership and freedom of speech are baffling.
I'm sure that it's insensitive of me to post this but I disagree with the OP anyways. I thought it was interesting that they were talking about this subject at penny-arcade today too. I get the feeling that they are part of the "you're making too much of this" camp.
On August 14 2010 11:22 LunarC wrote: The problem with using words like "own" or "beat" as an example for how the word "rape" is regarded in gaming culture is that "own" and "beat" are words with very general meanings while "rape" specifically means sexual intercourse without consent.
Yes, words can change intrinsic meanings in different contexts. Two young African Americans calling each other "nigger" is more or less socially acceptable. If I called either one of them a "nigger" I'd probably get beaten to a pulp.
However, "nigger" cannot be compared to "rape" because "nigger" possesses an enormous cultural scaffold to back it, while "rape" does not. Truly, the gamers are the minority in this sense.
On August 14 2010 11:21 CharlieMurphy wrote: you could say the same thing about the word owned. Anyone who was a slave is offended and reminded of when they were owned. Black people all over the US are turning in their graves.
"Own" is a word that can be applied to many things. I can "own" a desk lamp. The term CharlieMurphy is looking for is probably "enslaved". But gamers will never say that they "enslaved" some noob. Too many syllables.
The word rape does not originally refer to non-consensual sex. The origin of the word means to seize and was only rarely used sexually. It was frequently used to describe the plundering and destruction of warfare and thus, actually has context when describing starcraft and war games in general.
On August 14 2010 11:37 ToxNub wrote: Here's the thing:
1. It's not that it's hard to use "rape" less. It's that "rape" isn't the only thing I say that offends someone. Every insult known to man is discriminatory by definition. It characterizes certain things as being inferior to others.
2. Now I can spend all my time just speaking rainbows and sunshine, but this, in truth, reduces my ability to communicate. Discriminatory speech is part of language. It is absolutely necessary.
3. Because of 1 and 2, I have a conundrum. What is absolutely necessary is also absolutely offensive. I must be offensive to someone. Accepting this, the choice then, is what language to use in what situation. If I knew it bothered someone I cared about? Sure, I'd tone it down (provided I wasn't trying to bother them) If it didn't? Why would I stop?
4. So far, nobody has informed me I am offending them by using the word rape. This includes females, rape victims, and etc.
What I will not do is pre-screen everything I say, cease to say some things that I wish to say, on the supposition that someone (a random someone) may be offended. If you are offended by something I do, you owe me at least a personal request to cease my offensive behaviour. If an agreement cannot be reached, then both parties have the right to take their conversation elsewhere.
I think this is both the polite and correct way to ensure that both parties interests are represented.
1. While most insults may have started as being highly offensive, I would say there are now only a few categories which really fit that bill. Mental handicaps, gay jokes, rape, and ethnic slurs. Possibly some others. Yes it could be argued that retard, idiot and moron all once meant the same thing, but I think most of us know which word would stand out, and which words truly have a different meaning in this day and age.
2. This is kinda silly. No one anywhere, NEEDS to call someone a fag, or to say they raped someone, in order to get a point across clearly. If anything it could obscure the real meaning. I go every day of my life without calling someone a fag, derogatorily calling something Jewish or gay, or casually using the word rape. There is just no reason to do this.
I wonder how many people in this thread arguing for the usage of rape know anyone who's been raped? I'd guess not many, because most of those people stop using the word rape, because they have an idea of what it really means.
I used to use the word retarded all the time. I'd never think twice. Except now I have several friends who work with people who have developmental disabilities, and I'd be absolutely ashamed to say retarded in a derogatory context around them.
Really what we're talking about here, is people making a conscious effort to control their speech, and to speak appropriately. This is a good thing! Realizing that words are hurtful to other people and avoiding saying those words, is a good thing. We can all afford to be a little more considerate to the people around us.
Rape and such words are foul language. It is intended to offed someone. Foul words have an original meaning and context but they can always be used to just curse at someone in a general way. Asking to stop using the word rape in a gaming context because women might be offended is sexist in my opinion. Women shouldn't be offended, and probably aren't. If a rape victim (there's a better way to describe that btw.) is playing then the context changes and the person that uses the word is a jerk or oblivious.
On August 14 2010 11:22 LunarC wrote: The problem with using words like "own" or "beat" as an example for how the word "rape" is regarded in gaming culture is that "own" and "beat" are words with very general meanings while "rape" specifically means sexual intercourse without consent.
Yes, words can change intrinsic meanings in different contexts. Two young African Americans calling each other "nigger" is more or less socially acceptable. If I called either one of them a "nigger" I'd probably get beaten to a pulp.
However, "nigger" cannot be compared to "rape" because "nigger" possesses an enormous cultural scaffold to back it, while "rape" does not. Truly, the gamers are the minority in this sense.
On August 14 2010 11:21 CharlieMurphy wrote: you could say the same thing about the word owned. Anyone who was a slave is offended and reminded of when they were owned. Black people all over the US are turning in their graves.
"Own" is a word that can be applied to many things. I can "own" a desk lamp. The term CharlieMurphy is looking for is probably "enslaved". But gamers will never say that they "enslaved" some noob. Too many syllables.
The word rape does not originally refer to non-consensual sex. The origin of the word means to seize and was only rarely used sexually. It was frequently used to describe the plundering and destruction of warfare and thus, actually has context when describing starcraft and war games in general.
While that may be true, you surely agree that rape basically only has one meaning in this day and age.
On August 14 2010 12:02 Cloud wrote: Rape and such words are foul language. It is intended to offed someone. Foul words have an original meaning and context but they can always be used to just curse at someone in a general way. Asking to stop using the word rape in a gaming context because women might be offended is sexist in my opinion. Women shouldn't be offended, and probably aren't. If a rape victim (there's a better way to describe that btw.) is playing then the context changes and the person that uses the word is a jerk or oblivious.
Would you also advocate racial slurs as well? I mean in a general way, not targeted at someone who actually is black, or jewish or whatever. Are these also part of your standard foul word vocab?
I was once raped at a dark alley in a pile of rubble. It all happened because I was too greedy. I shouldn't have gone there at that time, and I knew it. He pressured me at the start, but I wasn't sure what his intentions were. Soon he came full force into my backdoor.
I'll link the replay to this pvz on scrapyard when I find it.
On August 14 2010 11:22 LunarC wrote: The problem with using words like "own" or "beat" as an example for how the word "rape" is regarded in gaming culture is that "own" and "beat" are words with very general meanings while "rape" specifically means sexual intercourse without consent.
Yes, words can change intrinsic meanings in different contexts. Two young African Americans calling each other "nigger" is more or less socially acceptable. If I called either one of them a "nigger" I'd probably get beaten to a pulp.
However, "nigger" cannot be compared to "rape" because "nigger" possesses an enormous cultural scaffold to back it, while "rape" does not. Truly, the gamers are the minority in this sense.
On August 14 2010 11:21 CharlieMurphy wrote: you could say the same thing about the word owned. Anyone who was a slave is offended and reminded of when they were owned. Black people all over the US are turning in their graves.
"Own" is a word that can be applied to many things. I can "own" a desk lamp. The term CharlieMurphy is looking for is probably "enslaved". But gamers will never say that they "enslaved" some noob. Too many syllables.
The word rape does not originally refer to non-consensual sex. The origin of the word means to seize and was only rarely used sexually. It was frequently used to describe the plundering and destruction of warfare and thus, actually has context when describing starcraft and war games in general.
While that may be true, you surely agree that rape basically only has one meaning in this day and age.
I do agree that when rape is mentioned, it is usually referred to in a sexual context. But it can also be used to describe a general violation since no other words carry such a strong connotation.
On August 14 2010 06:21 BillClinton wrote: i still dont get whats good about offending people, it seems some people insist on their right being free to offend others
inb4 weakly relevant misquote of Voltaire.
User was temp banned for this post.
cause he posted garbage for like 12 pages of this thread
I've read most of this thread and just got more confused as I went along. I'm pretty sure most of the people responding just get a gut reaction when they read the OP and then go with that and try to justify it with their response. What that gut reaction is is affected by upbringing, socio-political views, etc. I'll admit that my personal gut reaction was against the OP.
However, I've honestly tried to come up with an organized analysis of the issue, and since everyone else has given their 2 cents here's mine:
Let's take step back and take a more deductive, principled view about this. The OP is suggesting we self-impose a ban on a word that we use as a hyperbole to describe a situation commonly found in the gaming culture: namely that of getting thoroughly beaten into submission against one's will to the great pleasure of your oppressor.
There are a great many words in the English language. There are a great many words that could be taken by some part of the populace to be offensive or derogatory. There could even be strings of perfectly innocuous words that when stringed together become highly offensive to most people.
However, in society there is a banned list of words known as "taboo" words, like "fuck", "shit", etc etc. It is immoral to use a taboo word.
But what makes a word taboo?
The fact that it conjures images of indencency? Nope. Dick is taboo while pecker isn't. Fuck is taboo while intercourse isn't.
The fact that it is a slur/ pains a certain group? Also no. Nigger, chink, and jap are taboo while hillbilly isn't.
The reason any word is taboo (immoral) is because the vast majority of people in the community perceives it to be so, and since it is assumed you are speaking within your community, no one word can be deemed immoral unless it is on that special taboo list. Your intent and meaning are still subject to judgment.
Now, here's the clincher: look up "fuck" or "cunt" or "nigger" in the dictionary. Next to it you'll find a tag that says taboo or vulgar or w/e. Look up rape. that little tag is not there. So, if the word rape is not taboo, is not blacklisted from the general community, why the hell should there be any issue with its existence in the much laxer gaming community? 99.99% of the esports community knows exactly what you mean by "rape" in our context. There's absolutely no reason for all of us to quit using a colorful word that enlivens our conversation for the .01% who can't deal with common language for even legitimate personal reasons.
Why not root out all words that might inflict terrible memories on .01% of the populace? Lost on the OP's mind is that there are actually worse experiences than being just being raped. Let's get rid of expressions like "branded a traitor" "mutilated beyond recognition" or "sold up the river" or "abuse" or "neglect" for fear of offending the odd person who's actually experienced those things. Yeah, I met a little kid who was a real bastard today because he told his Mom he was starving. We hear stuff like that on the nightly news for crying out loud. Are you gonna reform them as well? Or is it too much to ask for rape victims to simply politely request that that word not be used in their presence, instead of guilt tripping the entire gaming community into abandoning a perfectly fine expression?
Note: I think "rape" would be discouraged in commentating simply because Western, and especially American, society is profoundly hypocritical in their prudishness, and also because feminists (and feminine men) think they have a monopoly on human injustice. Rape is singled out not because it's painful, but because it involves genitals. I've yet to see a handicapped person complain about the common use of "lame."
@savant: You've read the thread, but I think missed a valuble point. Some words cause people pain, and some do not, despite both being vulgar or taboo. Fuck is vulgar, but the word fuck doesn't reasonably cause anyone emotional pain. However, faggot, nigger, and the inappropriate use of rape, do cause people pain. Why is this? It's because these people have been victims in their life of abuse, racism, discrimination, homophobia, or likely worst of all, sexual violation. The casual derogatory use of these words are understandably distressing.
Also consider that these emotionally hurtful terms also have no secondary meaning in normal speech. Fag, Nigger and Rape all only have a single meaning in our culture, as opposed to beat, abuse, etc which are terms that have many meanings.
On August 14 2010 12:25 Sizzle wrote: Can we use gangbang instead? I don't use rape a lot but I do use it when I see 1 unit gets pulverized by 20 zerglings or so.
that's actually a pretty funny compromise. everyone has fun in a gangbang and it's lude and lascivious enough to make it a fun and extreme thing to say. hehe
I remember Gretorp saying that he used to say "rapin' bitches" in his stream, and in real life too.
And then he stopped saying it....when he met a rape victim.
I think the term "rape" is just a sensitive topic, but so long that gamers talk about rape within themselves, then it's totally fine.
Who the hell defined the word "rape" and set it in stone? As far as I can see, gamers and other people distinguish the word in two different ways, and so long as that's true, I don't see a huge problem in using the world.
Sure, socially it might be unacceptable because societal norms dictate the way we think. But eh...that's never stopped gamers before. >_>
Edit: But I do agree it's a pretty bad habit. I, myself, have switched over from the word rape, to the word destroy.
On August 14 2010 12:28 Savant wrote: Note: I think "rape" would be discouraged in commentating simply because Western, and especially American, society is profoundly hypocritical in their prudishness, and also because feminists (and feminine men) think they have a monopoly on human injustice. Rape is singled out not because it's painful, but because it involves genitals. I've yet to see a handicapped person complain about the common use of "lame."
After the claim that you have read through the majority of the thread all that followed was nonsensical and prejudiced especially the absolutely ignorant statement above. Feminists having monopoly on human injustice now that theyre drawing attention to issues buried over by patriarchal standards thousands of years old? And you assume the controversy around rape surrounds genitals involved rather than the act? Youre clueless mate, just clueless.
On August 14 2010 13:04 Zergneedsfood wrote: I remember Gretorp saying that he used to say "rapin' bitches" in his stream, and in real life too.
And then he stopped saying it....when he met a rape victim.
I think the term "rape" is just a sensitive topic, but so long that gamers talk about rape within themselves, then it's totally fine.
Who the hell defined the word "rape" and set it in stone? As far as I can see, gamers and other people distinguish the word in two different ways, and so long as that's true, I don't see a huge problem in using the world.
Sure, socially it might be unacceptable because societal norms dictate the way we think. But eh...that's never stopped gamers before. >_>
Haha, worse, he'd always say "I'm going to rape you in the asshole!'
On August 14 2010 11:21 CharlieMurphy wrote: you could say the same thing about the word owned. Anyone who was a slave is offended and reminded of when they were owned. Black people all over the US are turning in their graves.
I dont understand why people keep using the word owned as an example when its implications are broader and more abstract. Owned in gaming terms in no way intentionally or unintentionally makes connections to slavery. Its semantic impetus comes from "to seize something completely, to hit the spot" whereas "rape" specifically evokes sexual violation. This has been covered many times throughout the thread
Because to seize something completely does not entail the same physical dominance over the target that sexual violation does? I'd argue that rape is a instance of brutal control, whereas owning denotes a temporal relationship of control which spans over far more time, and is thus far more offensive to our current conceptions of liberty and freedom as cherished ideals.
That we'd focus on rape MORE than literally appropriating someone speaks to the fact that we're hyper-sensitive to genderized issues and really nothing more.
People need to stop being so sensitive. People say things like "your such a fag" so often and its just to express somebody being stupid or unkind. Every word can be used in a different context for different meanings. "gay" is supposed to mean happy but we spun it into meaning homosexual and now annoying.
There's this kid who used to be in my class and is really opinionated. He would say "I find it funny how gay and unpleasant are synonymous." I always told him I didn't care, I don't care because they have different meanings. Everybody who takes offense to language not directed at them are just trying to feel like they are better than those around them.
because rape offends someone, then we can't use the word "owned" anymore. the connotations behind the word and slavery suggests we must not say it around black people in fear of offending them. the word "rape" does not reflect cultural or social ignorance of a group of people. yes, it is terrible when it happens to people, especially ones you know, and it will then cause those around them to stop using the words. but to think it stops people from playing games in itself is... stupid. words offend people, that is life. i understand you cannot always block out words and grow a thick skin, but then maybe games involving other users from all across the world from many different age groups shouldn't be something you get involved in. that isn't to say you can't play games, but certainly ones where you are directly communicating with people you dont know anything about them.
While that may be true, you surely agree that rape basically only has one meaning in this day and age.
That would be true if languages were limited to what can be read in dictionaries and grammar books. But that's just not how languages work, languages evolve constantly through introduction of new words and the changes of old words. Dictionaries have to be updated regularly to keep up with this, but they will always be several steps behind the actual language on any given day. There's also the factor of words, expressions and meanings that are exclusive to a certain community like the Gaming community. Many of the smaller communities aren't big enough to have their expressions etc,etc in the official dictionary of the language, but that doesn't mean that the words lose their meaning in those communities.
Rape for example, just because the dictionaries most likely won't contain the gamer-version of the word rape any time soon, that doesn't mean that to us gamers rape can't mean anything else than what the dictionary says.
If I used the word rape while attending a meeting for rape victims, then I would be either a dumbass or just a regular old asshole. Because I either didn't understand that I was with a group of people that is pretty much 100% certain to think of the sexual meaning of the word or I understood that but just didn't care that they would take offense by it.
On the other hand, if I use the word rape while playing a game online or writing on a gaming forum then it's a different story. Because quite frankly, now we're in the gaming community and here the word rape has one more meaning. If someone doesn't agree or like that then all I can say is that no one is forced to be a part of the community. That might not be very fair to people who want to be a part of the community, but then again, since when was life very fair? Many communities are pretty rough and the simple truth is that if you want to be a part of them, you need to grow some thicker skin.
I would also like to point out that the OP offends me, because I believe that censoring language based on trying to not hurt anyone's feelings is to treat humanity like a bunch of five year olds. But I have thick skin, so no harm done.
The OP makes many assumptions (like singling out females as victims, when rape can happen to anyone), but generally misses the point of the way that English works.
The point of using rape is to signify that general description was lacking. Even if someone is using a different "word", the meaning is the same. To say that it trivializes the event would be as absurd as accusing someone of trivializing any other word when used in personal context. Does someone using the terms "awesome" or "cool" in reference to things that you do not believe are awesome/cool devalue the word?
There can be no true objective stance on word use unless you are for everything, or against everything. People should care less about the potential meaning of a word, and more about the actual meaning of the content.
im sure alot worse things can be done on the internet then using a word
if it truly affects them that much then they should see a therapist and im sure people who use that word arent gonna stop because some guy on a forum thinks he should... but its ok your just voicing your opinion
On August 14 2010 11:13 howerpower wrote: I'm so tired of people getting offended over everything, its childish and immature.
Yeah man, rape victims should just get over it. Sheesh. O_o
I agree with your implication; Rape Victims should stay broken for the rest of their lives.
No one in this thread hates rape victims or is suggesting they should stay broken the rest of their lives. But if merely hearing the word "rape" sends you into some sort of emotional nightmare then you are still "broken" in my book. I just wish rape victims and their sympathizers wouldn't try to use their victim status as a weapon to alter society for their benefit. We know it's not your fault you got raped. But hey, you should consider it's not our fault either.
On August 14 2010 11:13 howerpower wrote: I'm so tired of people getting offended over everything, its childish and immature.
Yeah man, rape victims should just get over it. Sheesh. O_o
I agree with your implication; Rape Victims should stay broken for the rest of their lives.
No one in this thread hates rape victims or is suggesting they should stay broken the rest of their lives. But if merely hearing the word "rape" sends you into some sort of emotional nightmare then you are still "broken" in my book. I just wish rape victims and their sympathizers wouldn't try to use their victim status as a weapon to alter society for their benefit. We know it's not your fault you got raped. But hey, you should consider it's not our fault either.
I agree completely.
And unlike allergic reactions, a person can control their mental state through practice/therapy/training.
i've noticed a lot of people making seriously, seriously questionable arguments in this thread. "language only has whatever meaning you assign to it"--i would strongly encourage you to apply this to a real world experience, for example, heading to anacostia and running around yelling "nigger" but telling everyone you think it means "friendship." the poster is trying to make a point that we as humans are individually empowered to give life and meaning to words, but that's simply not true. the development of language and word meaning is inextricable from the evolution and development of social order--ask any philosopher of language with any amount of credibility and they'll tell you the same. the idea that you can individually give meaning--new or otherwise--to words was debunked around 80 years ago by ludwig wittgenstein. i'd strongly encourage anyone interested in trying to make arguments about the "truth" behind language development to read wittgenstein's "on rules and private language."
i'm rambling but the point is this: collectively the gaming community has come to understand "rape" as something different from the idea of rape in terms of physical and sexual violence done to a person. oppression doesn't just exist in physical acts--it very clearly exists as a way of empowering the user and here, "rape" used in the gaming world still contains that same oppression, no matter what you "think" it means. you're using the word in order to distance yourself from the person you're attacking as someone "other." that is, someone who doesn't fit in with what you consider to be acceptable, whether socially or otherwise. the connotation still remains that you're using the word to suggest that you're forcefully taking advantage of someone, that you're feminizing them and that's what makes you better than them--it is impossible to abstract the original meaning out of the way that you're using it just because you're playing starcraft or halo or whatever. you're absolutely doing violence in that sense, and you're absolutely propagating what's known in academic circles as "[white] male privilege."
On August 14 2010 11:13 howerpower wrote: I'm so tired of people getting offended over everything, its childish and immature.
Yeah man, rape victims should just get over it. Sheesh. O_o
I agree with your implication; Rape Victims should stay broken for the rest of their lives.
No one in this thread hates rape victims or is suggesting they should stay broken the rest of their lives. But if merely hearing the word "rape" sends you into some sort of emotional nightmare then you are still "broken" in my book. I just wish rape victims and their sympathizers wouldn't try to use their victim status as a weapon to alter society for their benefit. We know it's not your fault you got raped. But hey, you should consider it's not our fault either.
I agree completely.
And unlike allergic reactions, a person can control their mental state through practice/therapy/training.
i, on occasion, use owned as an expression when playing games but i have never ever used the word rape. It's probably because i have alot of swedish gaming friends and we mostly speak swedish when we play. Most expressions gets translated, and owned (ägd) is pretty common, however raped (våldtagen) would probably leave an awkward silence afterwards if someone used it.
On August 14 2010 13:43 Cellardoor wrote: lolz OP got raped
On August 14 2010 04:06 FabledIntegral wrote: It's connotatively completely different. I understand it can upset some people, but there are certain points where I'm going to stop worrying about things for fear of hurting certain minority of peoples. Honestly, this is just another thread preaching political correctness. While I think it has its merits, I think we've all gone overboard on trying to prevent people from having to moderate everything they say because it might be offensive.
Can you imagine SC2 being casted here in the West with it's current vernacular? If pro-gaming is to become big outside of Korea, it'll be one thing that needs to change.
It's connotatively completely different. I understand it can upset some people, but there are certain points where I'm going to stop worrying about things for fear of hurting certain minority of peoples. Honestly, this is just another thread preaching political correctness. While I think it has its merits, I think we've all gone overboard on trying to prevent people from having to moderate everything they say because it might be offensive.
A word is a word is a word is a word is a word is a word is a word
On August 14 2010 11:13 howerpower wrote: I'm so tired of people getting offended over everything, its childish and immature.
Yeah man, rape victims should just get over it. Sheesh. O_o
I agree with your implication; Rape Victims should stay broken for the rest of their lives.
No one in this thread hates rape victims or is suggesting they should stay broken the rest of their lives. But if merely hearing the word "rape" sends you into some sort of emotional nightmare then you are still "broken" in my book. I just wish rape victims and their sympathizers wouldn't try to use their victim status as a weapon to alter society for their benefit. We know it's not your fault you got raped. But hey, you should consider it's not our fault either.
No one is blaming you for their traumas, people just want you to not trigger them! How do you think asking people "hey, please don't say this one single word that causes me to suffer incredible trauma!" is using their status as a weapon? They just want you to not do the mental equivalent of punching them in the nose. And you will certainly set back their recovery if you keep bringing it up D:
To the people talking about them being able to control their reactions: Obviously they can't! That's why it's a medical condition >_> Do you think there is anyone out there who would choose to suffer like people with PTSD can? D: Hmm I guess my point with this part wasn't clear. They are going to try to recover, probably with the help of professionals, but I don't really see how this is relevant. If they weren't getting help, it'd be ok to fuck with them?
On August 14 2010 13:40 dogjaw wrote: i've noticed a lot of people making seriously, seriously questionable arguments in this thread. "language only has whatever meaning you assign to it"--i would strongly encourage you to apply this to a real world experience, for example, heading to anacostia and running around yelling "nigger" but telling everyone you think it means "friendship."
If he truly wants to change the meaning of the word, being offended by it is your choice, and you are the one giving the word meaning. Unless someone is specifically trying to evoke a meaning, it shouldn't matter.
i'm rambling but the point is this: collectively the gaming community has come to understand "rape" as something different from the idea of rape in terms of physical and sexual violence done to a person.
Actually, the term "rape" has alternate definitions that have been around as long as the word. Gamers aren't the first to use a word this way, but it's not even an improper use of the word.
oppression doesn't just exist in physical acts--it very clearly exists as a way of empowering the user and here, "rape" used in the gaming world still contains that same oppression, no matter what you "think" it means.
It only has power if you "think" it means something to you. I can make up a word on the spot, and it's up to you to take offense based on the context. Taking offense at the function of a word, regardless of the context, is petty.
the connotation still remains that you're using the word to suggest that you're forcefully taking advantage of someone, that you're feminizing them and that's what makes you better than them--it is impossible to abstract the original meaning out of the way that you're using it just because you're playing starcraft or halo or whatever. you're absolutely doing violence in that sense, and you're absolutely propagating what's known in academic circles as "[white] male privilege."
On August 14 2010 04:03 neohero9 wrote: I understand where you're coming from. I have a handful of female friends who have been raped, and the word is a very sensitive word to them.
I think what drives gamers to use it is the fact that there is no more brutal monosyllabic word in the English language. The concept itself is the nullification of freedom and suppression of resistance, and it signifies a conquest over another person unmatched by any other act.
If this is to stop, there needs to be introduced a new word to use that's easy to use, just as brutal, but doesn't have the psychological scarring associated with it that "rape" does.
Where do you find a handful of friends that have been raped? Unfortunately it does happen but since when was it so common that people have a handful of friends that have been raped.
Although i dont actually use the word when gaming, I'm against the OP because as many people have pointed out words' meanings are dependent on the context and the people communicating, but also because theres so many other words you have to take offense to if you want to be consistent.
Owned-owning another person is slavery beating/kill/slaughter/massacre-violence
first ones that came to mind but im sure theres some reason you could object to every word, and then we'd only have fake words like "pwned" and i hate that word its retarded (fyi people consider this word offensive but why? being mentally handicapped is just as bad and is only a euphemism)
oh and a faggot is a bundle of sticks but if you call someone that theyll still take offense which they definitely should (reverse example of context changing a words meaning, if you think context should not excuse use of the word rape then context shouldnt change use of the word faggot.)
hmm i hope this is coherent and comes out the right way...
On August 14 2010 13:40 dogjaw wrote: i've noticed a lot of people making seriously, seriously questionable arguments in this thread. "language only has whatever meaning you assign to it"--i would strongly encourage you to apply this to a real world experience, for example, heading to anacostia and running around yelling "nigger" but telling everyone you think it means "friendship."
If he truly wants to change the meaning of the word, being offended by it is your choice, and you are the one giving the word meaning. Unless someone is specifically trying to evoke a meaning, it shouldn't matter.
i'm rambling but the point is this: collectively the gaming community has come to understand "rape" as something different from the idea of rape in terms of physical and sexual violence done to a person.
Actually, the term "rape" has alternate definitions that have been around as long as the word. Gamers aren't the first to use a word this way, but it's not even an improper use of the word.
oppression doesn't just exist in physical acts--it very clearly exists as a way of empowering the user and here, "rape" used in the gaming world still contains that same oppression, no matter what you "think" it means.
It only has power if you "think" it means something to you. I can make up a word on the spot, and it's up to you to take offense based on the context. Taking offense at the function of a word, regardless of the context, is petty.
the connotation still remains that you're using the word to suggest that you're forcefully taking advantage of someone, that you're feminizing them and that's what makes you better than them--it is impossible to abstract the original meaning out of the way that you're using it just because you're playing starcraft or halo or whatever. you're absolutely doing violence in that sense, and you're absolutely propagating what's known in academic circles as "[white] male privilege."
This is just plain wrong in every way.
i'm gonna respond to each point in turn:
1. "unless someone is specifically trying to evoke a meaning, it shouldn't matter"
this kind of thinking is tough to defend. words have inherent meaning regardless of their use, and this is a point i was trying to make in my post. you can't just say a word and declare "i don't mean anything by this," because then supposedly you're saying the word in and of itself is meaningless, which is not true. if you understand a word you understand a word, and what i'm trying to say is that "i didn't mean anything by it" effectively cannot be used as an excuse, because it simply isn't a logical outcome of how we process language and understand the use and meaning of words. it's a cop out.
2. "alternative definitions"
ok? and i'm talking about a specific definition that is incredibly offensive and degrading. you don't have a legitimate point in this comment.
3. "Taking offense at the function of a word, regardless of the context, is petty."
again, i'm saying this is false. "nigger" is offensive no matter how you use it. "fuck you" is offensive no matter how you use it. even if those words have been used to the point where you've been desensitized to their offensiveness, that does not mean they are no longer offensive to others. you're trying to isolate the word from it's meaning, and language absolutely does not work that way. language is social--you cannot argue that "it's up to me to decide yerpaderp" because the word itself is more than you. it's more than what you "think" it is. it has a history of use and meaning and again, that existence is not contingent on what you as a single individual believes it to be.
4. "This is just plain wrong in every way"
not an argument. nor is it constructive. use some critical thinking and try to attack my points, otherwise i'm just chalking this one up to laziness. and if you think that argument is wrong, you're basically telling hundreds of thousands of highly educated academics who make a living on philosophizing about this kind of thing that they're wrong. go check out some philosophy of language along with some feminism/gender/sexuality studies and get back to me on this one.
*my b i don't know how you nest quotes. how do you nest quotes?
EPT
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