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On July 10 2010 10:01 JiYan wrote:arent zergs trying to get more massable units? lurker would totally undermine that ideal. Part of the reason the lurker went missing, from my understanding, is that the lurker is anti-swarm. id rather see a unit called an ant that costs 1 gas and takes 1/3 a supply and just mass it like crazy with zerglings or something. at least then zerg could be called a "swarm" better. So you zergs definitely need to choose, lurker or swarm, you really cant ask for both. + Show Spoiler +well you can, but you probably shouldnt
I recall absolutely nobody saying this.
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the zergling air unit doesn't seem like a good idea because the ling is suppose to be countered by air units, and that was part of the balance because they were so darn cheap. making them swarm over land AND air is waay too overpowered and makes it the end all unit for everything.
anything resembling air units should definitely be part of a different tech tree outside of overlords,
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Rofl ... a 9 range unit which can fire while cloaked? Even 7 range unupgraded is longer than standard ground unit range. Make it 4 basic range and upgrade it to 7 and we can talk about it ...
Zerg already have a "huge range unit" and that is the Brood Lord. It is only the unwillingness of Zerg players to build ONE building (and then upgrade it) to be able to produce this unit which keeps them from realizing that they have this awesome unit. Most Zerg players are stuck in their "I must get a ground horde" mentality and ignore air completely.
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Roaches already have Tunneling Claws.
Roaches morph into Lurkers.
The Roach Warren evolve to Lurker Warren at lair tech for an expensive cost (similar to Templar Archive's cost or Fleet Beacon).
Lurkers have the identical melee attack to Roaches above ground (same damage, melee range) and their special Subterranean Spines while burrowed.
Lurkers can move while burrowed faster than Roaches, but must stop to fire.
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On July 10 2010 15:29 Kakisho wrote:
Roaches already have Tunneling Claws.
Roaches morph into Lurkers.
The Roach Warren evolve to Lurker Warren at lair tech for an expensive cost (similar to Templar Archive's cost or Fleet Beacon).
Lurkers have the identical melee attack to Roaches above ground (same damage, melee range) and their special Subterranean Spines while burrowed.
Lurkers can move while burrowed faster than Roaches, but must stop to fire.
It's useless then. That's way too late to be helpful to zerg to be honest. You're giving zerg a buff at the point in the game where they're strongest. What's the point in that?
Well useless is strong, but why buff zerg at a point in the game where they're already good. Zerg doesn't need mid/late game strength, they need a more powerful early/mid transition unit so they can handle Terran early/mid play.
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On July 10 2010 15:58 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2010 15:29 Kakisho wrote:
Roaches already have Tunneling Claws.
Roaches morph into Lurkers.
The Roach Warren evolve to Lurker Warren at lair tech for an expensive cost (similar to Templar Archive's cost or Fleet Beacon).
Lurkers have the identical melee attack to Roaches above ground (same damage, melee range) and their special Subterranean Spines while burrowed.
Lurkers can move while burrowed faster than Roaches, but must stop to fire. It's useless then. That's way too late to be helpful to zerg to be honest. You're giving zerg a buff at the point in the game where they're strongest. What's the point in that? Well useless is strong, but why buff zerg at a point in the game where they're already good. Zerg doesn't need mid/late game strength, they need a more powerful early/mid transition unit so they can handle Terran early/mid play.
Zerg does need mid game strength. Lurkers at lair tech is fine, imo.
Mech doesnt come out early game.....
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On July 10 2010 15:20 Rabiator wrote:
Rofl ... a 9 range unit which can fire while cloaked? Even 7 range unupgraded is longer than standard ground unit range. Make it 4 basic range and upgrade it to 7 and we can talk about it ...
Zerg already have a "huge range unit" and that is the Brood Lord. It is only the unwillingness of Zerg players to build ONE building (and then upgrade it) to be able to produce this unit which keeps them from realizing that they have this awesome unit. Most Zerg players are stuck in their "I must get a ground horde" mentality and ignore air completely.
I still don't understand this idea. Broodlords require Hive tech, greater Spire, and freakin' corrupters with a useless ability. How is this even remotely practical to tech up to unless you are ridiculously in the lead and have full map control? Lurkers are the answer to holding back aggression. Imo, they provide a lot of interesting mechanics to the metagame. Yet, there are those who are against the Lurker coming back - mainly non Zerg players, ironically.
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On July 10 2010 16:11 moon` wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2010 15:20 Rabiator wrote:
Rofl ... a 9 range unit which can fire while cloaked? Even 7 range unupgraded is longer than standard ground unit range. Make it 4 basic range and upgrade it to 7 and we can talk about it ...
Zerg already have a "huge range unit" and that is the Brood Lord. It is only the unwillingness of Zerg players to build ONE building (and then upgrade it) to be able to produce this unit which keeps them from realizing that they have this awesome unit. Most Zerg players are stuck in their "I must get a ground horde" mentality and ignore air completely. I still don't understand this idea. Broodlords require Hive tech, greater Spire, and freakin' corrupters with a useless ability. How is this even remotely practical to tech up to unless you are ridiculously in the lead and have full map control? Lurkers are the answer to holding back aggression. Imo, they provide a lot of interesting mechanics to the metagame. Yet, there are those who are against the Lurker coming back - mainly non Zerg players, ironically.
1. The proposed Lurkers wouldnt require that much less in investment compared to Brood Lords.
2. Flying units are always a good choice due to their limitless maneuverability.
3. Zerg players are constantly whining about Terran mech, but look at the Zerg air units (and I DONT mean the Mutalisk), which are armored and have very high hp while the Thor deals almost no damage to them due to its specialization against light air units.
4. The Brood Lord exploits one of the weaknesses of sieged tanks and that is its splash damage. The Broodlings are FREE (unlike the Interceptors on a Protoss Carrier) and have a very high targeting priority for units, thus they are actually "absorbing damage" which would otherwise hit your units.
5. You DONT need to have 20 Brood Lords to be effective, just 2-3 are enough to support your units with a bunch of mini-meatshields (the main Brood Lord damage is the IMPACT damage anyways, so the life span of the Broodling doesnt matter). So you get a ton of Corruptors and gain air superiority and just a few Brood Lords to support your ground units with "artillery" fire.
6. Brood Lords are MOBILE ATTACKING units while Lurkers are IMMOBILE DEFENDING units.
Zerg players always whine about requiring to build ONE building or an upgrade to ONE of their hatcheries to get additional tech, but they fail to see the effort it requires for other races to get to higher tech (its not like you only need one tech lab to be able to build Marauders from every Barrack, but for Zerg larvae are larvae). You need to build TONS of production buildings in addition to the CC / Nexi you need to expand your income capability. Zerg however just need a new Hatchery at 300 minerals (dirt cheap compared to Protoss and Terran) to expand both resource and unit production.
The big problem is that many Zerg players fail to see their superiority as a race especially in the late game, but when you havent prepared for a tech switch after a loss to a bunch of sieged tanks you wont win that with a new unit on the ground either. This isnt BW but rather SC2 and we have new units available. Learn to live with it OR ask for siege tanks to be 2 food again (and 25 less gas) while asking for Lurkers ... plus Spider mines and yadda yadda yadda. They will most likely come back in future expansions anyways ...
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Rabiator, all you need are a few vikings what the hell man? and with cover from tanks/thors don't tell me that it's easy to stop those vikings.
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On July 11 2010 01:59 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Rabiator, all you need are a few vikings what the hell man? and with cover from tanks/thors don't tell me that it's easy to stop those vikings.
"A few Vikings" depends upon the number of Corruptors you build ... and if you build LOTS the Terran has to build lots too and then it isnt a MECH TERRAN anymore. Vikings however are easily led into traps with just a few Hydralisks (you do research burrow for that) and all of a sudden the Terran requires lots of new Vikings to get rid of your air force. Dont tell me that this cant be done or that it is too expensive, because the Terran units arent free and if he "has to" build an air force he needs to build lots of Starports to be able to get the replacements fast enough or he loses. Vikings dont work well against ground forces and if you want to see how it is done just watch THIS from the Altitude invitational. Let me just quote Day[9]: "The Corruptor count was just too high." and "[IdrA] expected this air battle to be the most important part".
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Chris Sigaty did an interview on this, stating "more is not better, not to mention all the extra mechanics zerg has on his plate...". I agree with some aspects of this post, but for the most part(as much as i miss that fucking amazing unit!) It just doesnt seem like it would fit. I don't agree with making burrow something you have to get for the lurker. That defeats the whole "sc2 zerg has evolved status"
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Early-mid game harass, melee unit, good for stopping siege tanks, a 'leaper' perhaps? Zerg don't have a fancy terrain bypassing unit, why not have a cheaper massable melee unit that can jump up or down cliffs, moves slightly fast, and when engaging enemies it can leap over obstacles to that target at a considerable range? You could swarm a bunch and have them leap over the terran army into the tank line and start attacking them. Or you could put them on cliffs to hop down, kill harvesters, then hop back up. Yeah, its like a melee cross between reapers and stalkers, but fills 2 roles with a new unit that fits the evolved swarm feel where its all about trying to become more mobile.
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On July 11 2010 05:10 DarkKiwi wrote:
Early-mid game harass, melee unit, good for stopping siege tanks, a 'leaper' perhaps? Zerg don't have a fancy terrain bypassing unit, why not have a cheaper massable melee unit that can jump up or down cliffs, moves slightly fast, and when engaging enemies it can leap over obstacles to that target at a considerable range? You could swarm a bunch and have them leap over the terran army into the tank line and start attacking them. Or you could put them on cliffs to hop down, kill harvesters, then hop back up. Yeah, its like a melee cross between reapers and stalkers, but fills 2 roles with a new unit that fits the evolved swarm feel where its all about trying to become more mobile.
It's a tricky thing though. Zerg early game are really tough to deal with except for the fact that you can wall-in. Still I think it does fit a need that Zerg have.
In my experience here's the gaps in Zerg's army. Not saying these need to be fixed, but if you're talking about a new unit here's where I'd look into....
1. A unit that can effectively use terrain/cliffs
2. A unit that can, using cute tactics, be really cost effective vs 2-3 pop armored units ( armored things too large for FG & too small for NP)
3. A unit that's efficient in larvae and with a high mineral:gas ratio. Roaches somewhat fill this, but not particularly well. Lings are nice, but they're not larve efficient and will still cause a mineral float unless you pump hatcheries (which may be fine)
4. A unit that can help vs tanks while transitioning from tier 1 to tier 2 + burrow move/overlord drops. I feel like there's an explosion of tech that you want to get (banelings, roaches, overlord dropping) right at tier 2 and there's nothing all that effective to cover the time until you get them.
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On July 11 2010 02:15 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2010 01:59 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Rabiator, all you need are a few vikings what the hell man? and with cover from tanks/thors don't tell me that it's easy to stop those vikings. "A few Vikings" depends upon the number of Corruptors you build ... and if you build LOTS the Terran has to build lots too and then it isnt a MECH TERRAN anymore. Vikings however are easily led into traps with just a few Hydralisks (you do research burrow for that) and all of a sudden the Terran requires lots of new Vikings to get rid of your air force. Dont tell me that this cant be done or that it is too expensive, because the Terran units arent free and if he "has to" build an air force he needs to build lots of Starports to be able to get the replacements fast enough or he loses. Vikings dont work well against ground forces and if you want to see how it is done just watch THIS from the Altitude invitational. Let me just quote Day[9]: "The Corruptor count was just too high." and "[IdrA] expected this air battle to be the most important part".
Vikings are cheap and build fast with reactor addon, and they have 10 range which outranges the broodlords and corruptors. If Z is making more corruptors (which are not very cost effective versus vikings) then his ground army will be lacking all that much more.
I didn't say run around with vikings all over the place. Just keep the broodlords nullified.
4-5 vikings is plenty enough to handle a few broodlords with your tank thor hellion army. And if you end up making a ton more, then now you have a harassment strike force as well as some extra compliment to your tanks on the floor.
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Why should they do bonus damage to armored? I feel like spikes would do little damage to armored and do much more to light.
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On July 11 2010 05:38 DrTossRulezz wrote:
Why should they do bonus damage to armored? I feel like spikes would do little damage to armored and do much more to light.
armor piercing spikes ok?
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On July 10 2010 11:41 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2010 10:23 MavercK wrote:On July 10 2010 10:21 ELA wrote:
As someone pointed out in one of the milion previous discussions like this on the Lurker-topic, Zerg as a race dosn't really go well with a tactical unit that can wipe out entire armies while being cloaked.. They need some badass, spammable overpowering units with low supply-count. like the zergling? lol you sir are a baller. For the Lurker I want to see it take on as much differentiating features as possible from the baneling, and siege tank.
Lings would work against mech if they actually got a significant improvement in damage at hive tech.
On July 11 2010 05:38 CharlieMurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2010 05:38 DrTossRulezz wrote:
Why should they do bonus damage to armored? I feel like spikes would do little damage to armored and do much more to light. armor piercing spikes ok?
yarly.
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I also want the lurker to come back in SC2. Morphing it from a roach is a very good idea. You have my complete support !
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I really like the idea of seeing the Lurker come back(it's just such a fuckin' awesome unit), and there are some solid reasons as to why it could fit, but there are also very good reasons as to why it really isn't needed. To be honest, I think that for the most part, everything is balanced well enough at this point that I am fine with the lurker not making it back for SC2. I'll still miss it anyways. <3 Lurkers <3
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On July 10 2010 09:57 loadme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2010 09:34 Philip2110 wrote:On July 10 2010 09:29 CharlieMurphy wrote:On July 10 2010 09:25 loadme wrote:
the unit you describe is way out of line
armored, at good health, mid-cost
9 range ?!?!
+20-30 vs armored? making it 35-45 vs armored?
the way, the lurker works is by creating a line from him to his target.
everyone on this line will take the damage.
and it is splash dmg
so 35-45 over this distance, with this amount of hp, for those costs
its way out of line ^^ troll post? Siege Tank, Thor, Immortal, Collosus Siege Tanks need to be sieged. Thors are more expensive 3x the supply Immortals have a much shorter range Collosus get raped by AA, 3x the supply A 9 range unit that does this much damage and is 2 supply. Not even mentioning the splash damage. You high...? best part is, he calls me a troll  giving feedback is called trolling? ^^ 9 range splash dmg over the whole 9 fields 45 dmg vs armored (literaly 3hits and killing 10marauders if placed lucky?^^) 51 dmg with upgrades? burrowed/stealthed only mid costs only 2 supply only tier 2 if and only if a unit would include all those aspects, it would be something like the toss yo'mama ship, what only can be build once. put this lurker 6 range behind your choke and wait how everything gets instantly stealth-oneshot  this should not mean, that i'm against the lurker, i would love it and i think it would need a very high range like 7-9, because zerg needs something vs sieged tanks with mass bio in front but please make it somehow balanced ^^
I thought it was pretty well accepted that Zergling/Baneling/Mutalisk was the counter for Vio plus Tanks.
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EPT
