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A lot of people feel that zerg is lacking unit diversity. It is true, but do they need more units to balance out zerg options a bit? Do they need more heavy gas units? Does something feel like it's missing but you can't quite put your finger on it?
![[image loading]](http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/6/63/Lurker_SC2_DevRend1.jpg)
So anyways, I was talking with my team earlier about what units zerg could get in HotS expansion later down the road. We had a couple ideas for units like this one:
+ Show Spoiler [Zephyrling] +I had the idea for a tier 3 hive (or tier 2.5 spire) upgrade at pool that allows lings to morph into air units that are melee and attack for less damage/dps than their ground counterparts. However, they have a passive ability that goes off every couple hits or attaches them to the hulls of air units like a DoT. This DoT would cause the unit to be slowed.
This would give zerg air a more swarm like feeling, as well as allows better response times to dropships all over the place when zerg has many bases up (since you could just patrol them outside bases like scourge used to).
They upgrade would be similar cost as the bling upgrade, and possibly reduce the HP of the unit to 10-25.
The main unit we discussed was the good ol' Lurker, my favorite unit (second is the baneling).
![[image loading]](http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/52/l_d0f4a0bc8e0c42ea90b9cc37acfdb6e3.jpg)
As far as the unit's role, people feel that it overlaps with current units such as; baneling, roach, or even ultralisk. To some extent that is true. But I think it could still work.
![[image loading]](http://starcraft.incgamers.com/gallery/data/504/medium/Lurker.jpg)
Ideas we had:
-Make it tier 2, but morph from a roach (since hydra itself is already tier 2). Research cost 150/150 OR 50/50 and burrow must be researched as well 100/100. After all They do kinda look similar, and zerg evolve however they want so it fits ok lorewise.
-No additional cost in food (since roach and hydra are 2)
-Make it cost mostly gas because as it is right now, there is not a single zerg unit that costs more gas than minerals. So something like 25/125.
-It's HP would be between 150-170 and would come with 1 or 2 armor. It would be a armored bio unit ofc.
-The damage should be something like 15 + 20-30 to armored and be 7 range with a tier 3 upgrade giving them 9 range. +2 per upgrade or +1/+1 on attacks.
-Possibly an additional tier 3 upgrade to burrow move underground with lurkers for 150/150.
So the roles they would fill are many. Early game opening (to keep players honest with detection), Base raiding (harassment, drops, nydus, etc), reinforcement blocking (get in the middle of that rally), base defense (keep those drops busy at least for a while), surprise ambushes, defense against massive tier 1 & 1.5 units (zealots, stalkers, marauders, marines, reapers, hellions, sentries, templar, lings, blings, roach, hydra,).
Obviously you'd need 3-5 lurkers to 1 shot anything, and more like 6-10+ to 1 shot any kind of mass of hellions, zealots, marines, or hydra.
The main thing they would be effective at is versus masses of marauders, vikings, stalkers, and roaches, and to provide a more efficient non disposable unit to hold ground with. So they don't really hard counter anything (unless there is simply no detection), but they are pretty decent vs a lot of things. More of a soft counter.
They would still be greatly hard countered by; Immortals, Collossus, Tanks, Thors, Ultras, and of course air units. Hell, even zealots with charge would be pretty good vs any amount of lurkers under 10 or so.
What do you guys think about a semi anti-armored/light unit like this?
Could you see it being used in ways that (burrowed) blings/roaches couldn't?
Would it be more balanced and more exciting for Esports than sc2 is currently?
What other ideas can you think about for the Lurker?
What other ideas can you think of for more (gas heavy?)units for zerg to address unit diversity problems and options?
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Lurker is probably(most likely) gonna make an appearance in the Heart of the Swarm. So no need to theorycraft on it right now.
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On July 10 2010 08:59 Illison wrote:
Lurker is probably(most likely) gonna make an appearance in the Heart of the Swarm. So no need to theorycraft on it right now.
So anyways, I was talking with my team earlier about what units zerg could get in HotS expansion later down the road.
and that's all the more reason TO theorycraft on the unit imho.
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I thought there was a comment from a Blizzard employee in some interview saying that lurkers were unlikely to be patched into Wings of Liberty, or a later game.
I may be incorrect but it's something I remembered.
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On July 10 2010 09:01 CharlieMurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2010 08:59 Illison wrote:
Lurker is probably(most likely) gonna make an appearance in the Heart of the Swarm. So no need to theorycraft on it right now. Show nested quote +So anyways, I was talking with my team earlier about what units zerg could get in HotS expansion later down the road. and that's all the more reason TO theorycraft on the unit imho.
Oh I guess I didn't read that part. Selective reading ftl. Thought you were mostly talking about getting it patched in. Sorry about that.
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Blizzard won't put all their "eggs in one basket" so to speak. Illison is right.
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Honestly, why do people still insist on posting about the lurker? The lurker as we knew it, the infantry massacring stealth attacking unit, is obsolete in SC2 and will not be back. We have the baneling and that is fine by me.
It is not really possible to postulate about what units may or may not be seen in HOTS at this point. The new units added to brood war were done to help fill gaps, perceived or otherwise, of each race. SC2 is still too young to know what gaps do or do not exist, so it is impossible to theorycraft the ideal unit for filling them.
The lurker is obviously the poster child of the zerg race and everyone wants them for nostalgia's sake. But we need to move on if we are to make real progress.
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On July 10 2010 09:02 Tone_ wrote:
I thought there was a comment from a Blizzard employee in some interview saying that lurkers were unlikely to be patched into Wings of Liberty, or a later game.
I may be incorrect but it's something I remembered.
Well, the Lurker was in the alphas up until the last blizzcon. And Blizzard said they would (and are known for) adding units in expansions.
On July 10 2010 09:04 SnakeChomp wrote:
Honestly, why do people still insist on posting about the lurker? The lurker as we knew it, the infantry massacring stealth attacking unit, is obsolete in SC2 and will not be back. We have the baneling and that is fine by me.
It is not really possible to postulate about what units may or may not be seen in HOTS at this point. The new units added to brood war were done to help fill gaps, perceived or otherwise, of each race. SC2 is still too young to know what gaps do or do not exist, so it is impossible to theorycraft the ideal unit for filling them.
The lurker is obviously the poster child of the zerg race and everyone wants them for nostalgia's sake. But we need to move on if we are to make real progress.
I'm not saying we need light unit counter, in fact I'm saying it won't be that good vs marines and such (especially since they have more hp to begin with and shield upgrades).
The gaps with zerg are clearly outlined in the OP, unit diversity, gas heavy units, etc.
Besides being a fan favorite unit, I just feel that the unit brought so much more than banelings or roaches or ultras can by themselves. I'm leaning towards it being a more entertaining unit for esports
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Please dont start mixing Heroes of Newerth into sc2 :p
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I've been thinking that I'd like to see the zerg gain back the devourer's armor reducing spores ability in the form of an artillery unit. Could work on a lurkerish unit I suppose.
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On July 10 2010 09:16 mucker wrote:
I've been thinking that I'd like to see the zerg gain back the devourer's armor reducing spores ability in the form of an artillery unit. Could work on a lurkerish unit I suppose.
I've also though about a ground unit like this. dubbed it 'smoker'. Evolves just like a lurker and works the same kind of way, but it shoots a cloud of smoke out and does devourer type damage.
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as long as the baneling is in the game there is no need for the lurker in particular, but it does leave a big hole in the zerg's artillery for a good defensive unit (especially with no defiler/swarm either). the expansion should add a unit that can cover this role well.
I like the idea of having the queen morph into a unit at tier 2 that is a strong defense unit (by way of spells instead of macro mechanics). it becomes a faster stronger unit and then gains good defense spells.
I've read a lot that infestors are great for stopping air harass/drops (FG + infested terrans) but this unit would be for expansion defense and strong/slow forward pushes. something to help hold chokes etc
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the unit you describe is way out of line
armored, at good health, mid-cost
9 range ?!?!
+20-30 vs armored? making it 35-45 vs armored?
the way, the lurker works is by creating a line from him to his target.
everyone on this line will take the damage.
and it is splash dmg
so 35-45 over this distance, with this amount of hp, for those costs
its way out of line ^^
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On July 10 2010 09:22 Ideas wrote:
as long as the baneling is in the game there is no need for the lurker in particular, but it does leave a big hole in the zerg's artillery for a good defensive unit (especially with no defiler/swarm either). the expansion should add a unit that can cover this role well.
I like the idea of having the queen morph into a unit at tier 2 that is a strong defense unit (by way of spells instead of macro mechanics).
this combined with the lurker
the lurker that only can morph from queens in t2 and only use its spikes on creep
it would mostly be defensivly used
and you could work out some nydus creep strat
or even going for mass creep on the map
sounds interesting 
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On July 10 2010 09:25 loadme wrote:
the unit you describe is way out of line
armored, at good health, mid-cost
9 range ?!?!
+20-30 vs armored? making it 35-45 vs armored?
the way, the lurker works is by creating a line from him to his target.
everyone on this line will take the damage.
and it is splash dmg
so 35-45 over this distance, with this amount of hp, for those costs
its way out of line ^^
troll post? Siege Tank, Thor, Immortal, Collosus
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infestors cost 100/150 and overall the lurker does overlap with quite a few units. Also if it is anything like it was in BW then yeah it needs additional cost in food atleast make it a 3 supply unit(2 for roach and 1 additional when morphed into lurker, but probably 2 additional supply).
IMHO we dont need the lurker in the game though, Focusing on a new unit to put in the game for diversity is where energy should be spent, There is enough of old units in the game.
What do you guys think about a semi anti-armored/light unit like this?
Could you see it being used in ways that (burrowed) blings/roaches couldn't?
Would it be more balanced and more exciting for Esports than sc2 is currently?
What other ideas can you think about for the Lurker?
What other ideas can you think of for more (gas heavy?)units for zerg to address unit diversity problems and options?
1) I think it would be great to have a unit like that but the lurker isnt it, overlaps with too many units.
2) Not really,
3) Maybe, but you can achieve the same effect with something fresh
4) Focus on a new unit instead of trying to get the lurker into the game(even though it is a sweet unit I have to admit)
5) I dont think making a unit gas heavy, and hence very powerful, is the solution to the zergs problem. Zerg needs something thats different and has a somewhat fun to use ability. But honestly I think the zerg is more or less fine as it is. There's some tweaking to be made but we'll see how the latest patch has affected the game.
Could the zerg use a new unit for diversity? Yes, but I dont know if it is actually needed. I'm inclined to say no.
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On July 10 2010 09:29 CharlieMurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2010 09:25 loadme wrote:
the unit you describe is way out of line
armored, at good health, mid-cost
9 range ?!?!
+20-30 vs armored? making it 35-45 vs armored?
the way, the lurker works is by creating a line from him to his target.
everyone on this line will take the damage.
and it is splash dmg
so 35-45 over this distance, with this amount of hp, for those costs
its way out of line ^^ troll post? Siege Tank, Thor, Immortal, Collosus
Siege Tanks need to be sieged.
Thors are more expensive 3x the supply
Immortals have a much shorter range
Collosus get raped by AA, 3x the supply
A 9 range unit that does this much damage and is 2 supply. Not even mentioning the splash damage. You high...?
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On July 10 2010 09:04 CharlieMurphy wrote:
The gaps with zerg are clearly outlined in the OP, unit diversity, gas heavy units, etc.
Besides being a fan favorite unit, I just feel that the unit brought so much more than banelings or roaches or ultras can by themselves. I'm leaning towards it being a more entertaining unit for esports
The "gaps" you quoted are not gaps. Lacking unit diversity is an opinion and one that I happen to disagree with. I don't really think zerg qualifies as gas heavy, and even if it did, that would be a trait or even a "feature" of the race and not a gap.
Gaps are gameplay deficiencies, not a subjective disagreement with game design. As a theoretical example, consider the following completely made up statement: the only viable option for Zerg to deal with Terran siege tank + turret creep across the map is to not allow the game to reach that state. Clearly this indicates that there is a deficiency in this matchup. Perhaps the solution is tweaking some numbers. Or perhaps the solution is to add a new unit.
The game is too young to claim any such gaps exist. People have still not experimented enough with all of the units. For example, I rarely see any use of Nydus worms unless you are trying to win immediately by dropping one in the back of their base. What about flanking with them? What about using them as a front to peel defenders away from the main so you can just walk in the front door? Until these tactics are explored there is no way to tell if there really are any gaps in any of the races.
That being said, they may still choose to add new units just to mix things up a bit. In that case they could add what ever they pleased as long as it doesn't step on any existing roles or units. The new units would need to bring some kind of compelling change to gameplay for Blizzard to add them just because.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
I love how the answer to every Sc2 unit problem is to just put a BW unit in. Why not just play BW then?
I think and hope we'll see new units as opposed to recreations of the original. It's not that the originals are bad, obviously, but I think part of the fun of Sc2 should be dealing with new stuff.
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On July 10 2010 09:34 Philip2110 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2010 09:29 CharlieMurphy wrote:On July 10 2010 09:25 loadme wrote:
the unit you describe is way out of line
armored, at good health, mid-cost
9 range ?!?!
+20-30 vs armored? making it 35-45 vs armored?
the way, the lurker works is by creating a line from him to his target.
everyone on this line will take the damage.
and it is splash dmg
so 35-45 over this distance, with this amount of hp, for those costs
its way out of line ^^ troll post? Siege Tank, Thor, Immortal, Collosus Siege Tanks need to be sieged. Thors are more expensive 3x the supply Immortals have a much shorter range Collosus get raped by AA, 3x the supply A 9 range unit that does this much damage and is 2 supply. Not even mentioning the splash damage. You high...?
Lurkers also need to be seiged.
Thors obliterate air so they better.
Immortals hard counter armored shit and do 50+ damage move fast and have special shields, why would they need longer range.
Collosus, have a range upgrade (+3 to 9)same tier level as well and they have a ton of HP, lurker can get raped by any air in general.
The 9 Range upgrade is hive tech btw, which means you should be able to counter it with any of the above mentioned units very easily. As well as banshee, muta, ravens, void rays, pheonix (lift).
Why all the negativity? This is not meant to be a whining thread, The ideas I have are not OMFGWTF imbalanced. I don't see why you guys can't have a constructive discussion.
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EPT
