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On June 17 2010 05:33 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2010 05:32 owenowens33 wrote:
Also I urge those who have been calling Misrah an idiot or a troll to read my original post, it may help some of you understand where he is coming from, even if in the end you still disagree with him. I don't understand how anyone would consider Misrah an idiot or a troll...his OP was a damn long post that should have been properly read and understood by most people. It made a frank sort of sense. I don't agree entirely with everything he said but I certainly agree that the game industry is turning into an entertainment industry.
I think most people understood what he was coming from. It's just that Misrah suddenly went on wild tangents about Blizzard trying to sabotage SC2 that bothered us, or the fact that he's making wild assertions about "fake" competitiveness that has no real definition, yet for some reason he uses it as some infallible counterargument.
EDIT: Grats on Queen icon
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A few things I want to point out. I use to play supreme commander. Anybody that has ever tried to take that game to the next level knows how steep the learning curve is for that game. However it died out pretty fast despite having a pro scene with cash prizes and sponsorship backing. Want to know why? It was simply too complicated and redundant. People would waste 20 minutes of their time to build up to a climax and another 20 minutes to finish the game. It was a great game but nobody wants to learn a game that will take forever to learn the basics and at the same time take 20 minutes just to macro properly.
That being said. Starcraft 2 is genius. It shaves off the time it takes to macro but doesn't take the aspect out of the game. It's only easier. You still have to do it but you don't have to take 30 minutes to do it. You get to focus on the funner parts of an rts game. As much as I enjoy building probes I don't want 50% of my time dedicated to it. That only takes 5% of my skill, is how to build probes.
If you want to be your definition of competetive you should go play chess. No multiple building selection enabled and a skill ceiling higher than you could even imagine. Very cheap to play, free software and no in-game mechanic to help you move your pawns.
The bottom stuff basically just states you are trolling. You made this thread to induce hate and troll us. Stating an opinion is one thing. Bashing those who comment against it is another.
On June 17 2010 05:21 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2010 05:18 OpRaider wrote:On June 17 2010 05:15 Misrah wrote:On June 17 2010 05:10 Talic_Zealot wrote:
APM mattered so much in BW because of no worker / fight rally, no automine, no mbs, no unlimited selection.
Nony your a way better player than me- don't you think that if that was in SC1 that you and many other pro gamers would have hit the ceiling many many years ago?
You are proving yourself wrong. No worker / fight rally, no automine, no mbs, no unlimited selection are not at all the reasons starcraft is such a competitive game. Actually the fact that these exist in SC2 and still it is a very mechanically demanding game means that there will be even more things that you can do if you are good enough. SC2 is not mechanically demanding. You must be kidding me right? Many people share the sentiment that sc2 doesn't not require as much mechanical skill as sc1. But at least you have APM technology now... so i could be wrong. stop acting morally superior to everyone...by using this "APM technology" thing as your cover Morally superior- yep thats me. Keep bringing on the hate SC2 forum i have been waiting for this. Entertainment is the new wave of the future.
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nice touch with the music
But it was WAAAAY TL;DR for me, so if you could sum i up in a sentence or ten that would be great 
User was warned for this post
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Ah, you are a nostalgic one arent you ?
Personally, I agree, but I think you give too much importance to it, its not absolute.
There will still be awesome hardcore games, but even us the geeks who love to play it, barely have time to do so nowdays.
until playing games is something people can live off reliably, I think games will tend to get easier to learn.
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On June 17 2010 05:37 Backpack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2010 05:12 owenowens33 wrote:Thank you for proving my point.
Starcraft is competitive. The pros play on a competitive level. A 6 year old (or a copper player) will be playing the game for entertainment. But they are playing the same game.
Starcraft BW was fine, SC2 will be fine. I think you are missing the point. It is obvious that there can be a game that is easy to pick up but hard to master. SSBM was a game like that, tailored for the casual, but the hardcore drove the metagame until it was highly competitive. What Misrah is saying is that gaming developers now are consciously trying to limit the competitiveness of a game in order to attract a larger casual audience and generate more profit. For example, imagine a company that comes up with the game of Soccer. Then the company comes up with Soccer 2.0, and builds into the game rules that are specifically designed to make the game non-competitive, such as no running, the goals are bigger, etc etc. How is starcraft 2 being designed to limit competition? Blizzard is trying to expand E-SPORTS.....
Blizz has created an online game that limits competition. I should not have to tell you that. Also not having LAN, and having a map system that caters exclusively to blizz rights is not expanding e sports...
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On June 17 2010 05:38 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2010 05:34 Sakkosekken wrote:
While you present a valid text, your arguments does not imply the conclusion you are trying to make, and to be frank with you, this is just a load of crap coming from a person with obvious nostalgia.
I would like to point out the following paragraph: "I wanted to scream and yell at all of the game testers of this recent SC2 craze. Did you not all realize that they have not taken a single shred of your advice? Don't you all see that all of the hard work you put into 'imbalance' topics, or 'this seems weak' is ignored? Don't you understand that blizz and other game companies only want your opinion- so THEY KNOW HOW NOT TO MAKE THIS GAME! They never wanted a competitive game, they always wanted a popular game... ENTERTAINMENT Your constant nit picking and eager help, clearly showed blizz and other game companies how exactly not to make a game."
You do not present any examples of these imbalances, nor weak parts of the game. Then comes the really funny part: I have no idea how you can draw a conclusion like that based on your arguments, I actually laughed while I read it. Of course Blizzard wants to make a popular game, when a game is popular, it usually implies that the game is entertaining, great, you drew an obvious conclusion, but you fail to mention what makes a game competive, and why people want to get good at it.
To me it is obvious: the players like the game so much that they want to become good at it and beat the opponent as it provides ENTERTAINMENT to them. Why do you think people become progamers in the first place? Money?... people become pro gamers for the dream and money of making a living playing video games. I also am not here to talk about the merit of sc2 as a game, because i don't think its a game- but simply entertainment. If you have not already guessed i don't like sc2- but this is not what the OP is about. I am simply trying to point out the fact that sc2 is not a competitive game, and in fact may of the very popular games released by game companies are not competitive. they have false competition, and are great entertainment. Making a game that is entertaining, and will sell very well is great for game designers.
You are beginning to sound like a broken record.
Please explain why SC2 is not competitive and it is false competition. You keep saying it is, but you don't say why exactly.
There is a ton of proof that is competitive (High level players, big tournaments, big skill gap) so go ahead and prove all of that wrong.
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On June 17 2010 05:38 TangJuice wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2010 05:21 Misrah wrote:On June 17 2010 05:18 OpRaider wrote:On June 17 2010 05:15 Misrah wrote:On June 17 2010 05:10 Talic_Zealot wrote:
APM mattered so much in BW because of no worker / fight rally, no automine, no mbs, no unlimited selection.
Nony your a way better player than me- don't you think that if that was in SC1 that you and many other pro gamers would have hit the ceiling many many years ago?
You are proving yourself wrong. No worker / fight rally, no automine, no mbs, no unlimited selection are not at all the reasons starcraft is such a competitive game. Actually the fact that these exist in SC2 and still it is a very mechanically demanding game means that there will be even more things that you can do if you are good enough. SC2 is not mechanically demanding. You must be kidding me right? Many people share the sentiment that sc2 doesn't not require as much mechanical skill as sc1. But at least you have APM technology now... so i could be wrong. stop acting morally superior to everyone...by using this "APM technology" thing as your cover Morally superior- yep thats me. Keep bringing on the hate SC2 forum i have been waiting for this. Entertainment is the new wave of the future. Uhhhhhh i think you need to chill out guy, your post is basically your opinion about how the gaming industry is changing, with frankly little to back up a lot of your statements but what ever your free to it, but don't say things like that, they just cause you to come off as a dick, undermining your point. Lets be a little more mature here....
mature on the sc2 forum- i hope your kidding right? I have been mature- and all of my points are very clearly laid out. Money is the driving factor for all games. Game companies want to make money. The best way to make money is to make entertainment, with 'false' competition. Gaming and real games with concrete skills and competition are thrown out of the widow so they can attract a bigger market and make more money.
This is fact- and this annoys me, so i am telling people about it.
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Misrah, just wondering, but if you hate SC2 so much. Why bother posting on TL ? You know that the people here clearly does not agree with yoú, if they did they would not be on the nr. 1 SC2 site ? ?
This is becomming more and more clearly that you are simply trolling and trying to start a Flame war or maeby just wasting time.
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An "entertaining" read, however I think your claim that competition is gone is completely false. Whether the games are a low skill level or not there are always players who will find a way to gain an edge on the other players. Competition doesn't require difficult games it simply requires a game-simple or not is irrelevant.
Also I don't really know what games were difficult in the past other than maybe sc:bw. You mention CS but honestly while that game is challenging it is not challenging b/c of the game mechanics. It is challenging b/c of the human aspect of the game. The challenge in any game/sport arises from playing against talented opponents. With more and more people playing widely accessible games there should be more and not less competition.
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On June 17 2010 05:41 Backpack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2010 05:38 Misrah wrote:On June 17 2010 05:34 Sakkosekken wrote:
While you present a valid text, your arguments does not imply the conclusion you are trying to make, and to be frank with you, this is just a load of crap coming from a person with obvious nostalgia.
I would like to point out the following paragraph: "I wanted to scream and yell at all of the game testers of this recent SC2 craze. Did you not all realize that they have not taken a single shred of your advice? Don't you all see that all of the hard work you put into 'imbalance' topics, or 'this seems weak' is ignored? Don't you understand that blizz and other game companies only want your opinion- so THEY KNOW HOW NOT TO MAKE THIS GAME! They never wanted a competitive game, they always wanted a popular game... ENTERTAINMENT Your constant nit picking and eager help, clearly showed blizz and other game companies how exactly not to make a game."
You do not present any examples of these imbalances, nor weak parts of the game. Then comes the really funny part: I have no idea how you can draw a conclusion like that based on your arguments, I actually laughed while I read it. Of course Blizzard wants to make a popular game, when a game is popular, it usually implies that the game is entertaining, great, you drew an obvious conclusion, but you fail to mention what makes a game competive, and why people want to get good at it.
To me it is obvious: the players like the game so much that they want to become good at it and beat the opponent as it provides ENTERTAINMENT to them. Why do you think people become progamers in the first place? Money?... people become pro gamers for the dream and money of making a living playing video games. I also am not here to talk about the merit of sc2 as a game, because i don't think its a game- but simply entertainment. If you have not already guessed i don't like sc2- but this is not what the OP is about. I am simply trying to point out the fact that sc2 is not a competitive game, and in fact may of the very popular games released by game companies are not competitive. they have false competition, and are great entertainment. Making a game that is entertaining, and will sell very well is great for game designers. You are beginning to sound like a broken record. Please explain why SC2 is not competitive and it is false competition. You keep saying it is, but you don't say why exactly. There is a ton of proof that is competitive (High level players, big tournaments, big skill gap) so go ahead and prove all of that wrong.
This is more than SC2 you know. it's about halo3, it's about SSBB and it's about all the other 'entertainment' that is coming out. sc2 is not a game. it's entertainment- it will die in a year or two, because the skill ceiling will be easily reached. It is a known fact that diamond level players are a joke. I have seen countless posts of people talking about how a D / D+ player in SC is now in diamond league lol how can you even say sc2 is competitive? it is false competition
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On June 17 2010 05:44 Manilix wrote:
Misrah, just wondering, but if you hate SC2 so much. Why bother posting on TL ? You know that the people here clearly does not agree with yoú, if they did they would not be on the nr. 1 SC2 site ? ?
This is becomming more and more clearly that you are simply trolling and trying to start a Flame war or maeby just wasting time.
LOL this site was made for SCBW pro scene coverage- nothing else.
Once again not trolling, not flaming- just stating an opinion.
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I'm with you OP but you should let the kids have fun with their game, they will eventually switch to warcraft IV in a couple of years. Some will probably whine about the noobified game play of the sequel though :p
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There are many things I want to say about this post, and even about your post history. However, I'll just say that I disagree and that no matter how much you think you can analyze and over think these subtleties, it doesn't matter because competitive games exist because a community exists. If you want to argue what constitutes competition or community or the motive of the company, go ahead, but i'll just consider it a waste of time.
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On June 17 2010 05:48 Boblion wrote:
I'm with you OP but you should let the kids have fun with their game, they will eventually switch to warcraft IV in a couple of years. Some will probably whine about the noobified game play of the sequel though :p
no truer words were ever spoken
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Comparing SC -> SC2 to SSBM -> SSBB is just completely wrong. Blizzard is listening to the community and making balance changes based on many of the complaints made by TL. They even made a change to the game to make it harder to macro (remove wireframe clicking for chrono boost/inject larva).
Your argument has some truth to it, but you can't put SC2 in the same group as those other "entertainment" games you listed. It has a high skill ceiling and it is being designed to be competitive. This is pretty clear if you payed attention to any of the beta tournaments as you don't just see random people winning tournaments.
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On June 17 2010 05:47 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2010 05:44 Manilix wrote:
Misrah, just wondering, but if you hate SC2 so much. Why bother posting on TL ? You know that the people here clearly does not agree with yoú, if they did they would not be on the nr. 1 SC2 site ? ?
This is becomming more and more clearly that you are simply trolling and trying to start a Flame war or maeby just wasting time. LOL this site was made for SCBW pro scene coverage- nothing else. Once again not trolling, not flaming- just stating an opinion.
IDD, but your posting the SC2 section m8. And with comments as (paraphrasing) "SC2 is a joke and it sucks"
What did you expect the reaction would be ?
Also, tell me 1 blizzard game that lasted 1-2 years ?
You kinda need a wiee bit of proof to back these statements, if you dont, it is just trolling.
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This is fact- and this annoys me, so i am telling people about it.
It's not a fact that Starcraft 2 has "false" competition. It is an opinion. If it were actually a fact you wouldnt be facing so much opposition. You dont provide conclusive evidence, only subjective evidence based on examples that other people could disagree with.
I actually agree with you quite a bit, but you are trying to make this a theory a fact without providing sufficient unarguable evidence which will be required if you want to convince people who disagree with you.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On June 17 2010 05:05 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2010 05:03 Spawkuring wrote:On June 17 2010 04:54 Misrah wrote:On June 17 2010 04:50 Spawkuring wrote:
The main issue I have with this essay is that it basically accuses all modern games of having "fake competition" for no real reason. What exactly does SC2 have that makes it fake? What does fake even mean? None of this is defined, but you toss it around as fact. Just because a game isn't on BW's level doesn't mean it can't still be competitive.
And what's worse is that you accuse Blizzard of sabotaging competition with no proof of it whatsoever, although I'm sure the reasons you will give will probably be something completely subjective and baseless. I mean I can understand the frustration at the over-casualization of several games, but I really don't see a reason why competition suddenly has no place. they sabotage competition by having their hand in every single aspect of competition. From no LAN, to all the other shit they are going to pull in online line 'turnies' Can you honestly tell me that they are looking to created a competitive game- when they have never taken anything the competitive community has said to them? "Never taken anything the competitive community has said to them"? Do the words "macro mechanics" ring a bell to you? A set of game mechanics added to the game purely because the hardcore community requested a way to make up the improved UI. Or perhaps the fact that they made large changes to the graphics because we complained about overly bright graphics and low readability. Or maybe the new replay features which have things like APM, something we specifically asked for. Or perhaps the fact that they have repeatedly held events, many in Korea, where they specifically ask fansites and pro-gamers to come test their game, chat with the developers face-to-face, and provide feedback. Or hell, the fact that they kept the core Starcraft gameplay the same instead of dramatically innovating it because they knew it would upset hardcores if Blizzard changed it (because casuals certainly haven't been happy about Blizzard not innovating). You also bring up taking control of tourneys, but in all honestly you have absolutely no idea how it will all work out. None of us do. Blizzard is definitely taking a HUGE risk here, but nobody can assert that they will either succeed or fail. Maybe it will crash and burn and e-Sports dies forever, or perhaps it's a massive success that expands e-Sports to the rest of the world instead of just Korea. Either way, it's far too early to assert, and it's irritating to see people act like they can see the future. Seriously, a lot of this is just you venting out steam. I understand some of the frustration, but again, it's ridiculous to be making such broad claims especially when most of them are baseless speculating. Macro mechanics are a great way for some false competition, it's nice entertainment. Hardcore requested something because the game is too easy- so blizz comes up with something on their own that will stifle the hard core, and yet still make the entertainment great for their target market. Macro mechanics are a joke- and you know it.
You just can't be serious. Especially when it comes to protoss, that mechanic is just excellent and players are *soooooo* far from being able to optimally utilize it in longer games.
I've read the OP and your posts throughout this thread and you sound like a conspiracy theorist. Of course the game industry has changed, but don't act like SC1 was created with any different goals in mind than SC2 - they wanted to make a fun game, they still do.
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On June 17 2010 05:49 Silent`Assassin wrote:
Comparing SC -> SC2 to SSBM -> SSBB is just completely wrong. Blizzard is listening to the community and making balance changes based on many of the complaints made by TL. They even made a change to the game to make it harder to macro (remove wireframe clicking for chrono boost/inject larva).
Your argument has some truth to it, but you can't put SC2 in the same group as those other "entertainment" games you listed. It has a high skill ceiling and it is being designed to be competitive. This is pretty clear if you payed attention to any of the beta tournaments as you don't just see random people winning tournaments.
I think that i have said many times that blizz is not listening... on many things. b.net comes to mind- but there is just so much more.
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EPT
