On June 10 2010 04:14 levelping wrote: I'm not sure people realise what they are saying. For people appealing to some kind of moral high ground, you might want to realise that
1) "he deserves it" : this is like another human being you're talking about. He might be doing it for the money. The main people to blame are all the arena spectators giving the demand for the sport. This guy could just be some average joe who is trying to get his kids money to get through school. He is a complete stranger to all of us and without even thinking about his motivations and life, you readily say that he deserves to get a bull horn through his lower jaw.
2) Slaughter houses. As a fact, there are several times more cows being kept in small pens and being slaughtered. As a fact, these same small pens cause cows an immense amount of stress and disease. And of course, cows for bull fighting are treated (ironically) far better than normal cows.
So what you have is a) a cow that has a very miserable life and then gets slaughtered and b) a cow that has a better life, but dies in a more horrible way. If you are trying to say that a) is any better than b) i'm not sure that the cow really appreciates the arbitrary line you are trying to draw.
Concluding - if you are going to try and have some moral high ground to say that another human being deserves to have his jaw impaled, maybe you might want to examine your own practices least you look hypocritical.
I don't care if you call me hypocritical, but I personally have no sympathy for a person who willing, and personally, tortures an animal for entertainment - even if that person died. I try to avoid the killing of all animals, though I accept that the laws of nature(an society) make that impossible.
You can argue the morality of factory farming and how every person(American at least) is partially responsible for that, however, I bet that most of the people who eat factory farmed meat(including myself, though I try to get organic) would never directly kill an animal just for sport and so other people could enjoy themselves.
Read the first part of my post. We have no idea about this particular matador's motivations, but you are taking all the normative critique about the sport, and blaming it on this one particular person. And look again at the "morality of the farming factory." Most people won't directly kill an animal for sport, but they kill a) far MORE cows and b) kill it without a thought (which arguably might be worse). Now if we consider this from the point of cows, there really is no difference. In fact you're more likely to get ill treated in a farming factory.
so you're proposing that killing them in an arena would be the lesser of two evils.
well considering how the majority of the populace doesn't know the horrors of a farming factory, this does seem quite evil
I'm actually saying that any difference we are trying to make between factory killing and arena killing is really just arbitrary distinctions that don't matter to the cow. It's equally cruel to the cow. So if you are going to condemn one (and say that a man deserves getting his jaw impaled) while saying the other is "fine"or "necessary"or "totally different," you are trying to make yourself feel better.
On June 10 2010 04:39 [NyC]HoBbes wrote: Why does it feel like every time anyone brings up bullfighting (not just online, in general), 99% of people react by going "ANIMAL TORTURE ANIMAL TORTURE YOU TERRIBLE PERSON BLABLABLABLA NOT LISTENING TO YOU"
Firstly, anyone who eats beef and claims bullfighting is worse is deluding themselves. Thinking about the way the animal is killed fails to take into account a whole bunch of other things. Let me propose a couple of scenarios for you.
You may choose one of these two lives.
1)- You live in a small cell your entire life. You are not allowed contact with the opposite sex, and are fed periodically at certain intervals. One day, you are painlessly killed.
2)- You may eat, sleep, and have sex whenever you feel like. One day, a Hispanic man in tights kills you with a sword.
The idea that killing a bull for a bullfight is somehow wasteful is also bullshit. The world would be a better place overall if people stopped eating beef entirely. It is inefficient, and just as wasteful or resources that could be better expended feeding the hungry. Eating beef is a luxury, as is attending a bullfight.
Bullfights are cultural events that are, for the most part, no more or less evil than the meat or leather industries. Once you've fixed the legitimate abuses of animals that occur in the world, come after my corridas. Until then, kindly leave bullfighting the fuck alone. Stop letting the public and rather gory nature of the event get in the way of logic
and also your points are stupid. come after my corridas after we legitimize the farming industry?
uhm how about we just stop the cruel mistreatment of animals NOW?
On June 10 2010 04:14 levelping wrote: I'm not sure people realise what they are saying. For people appealing to some kind of moral high ground, you might want to realise that
1) "he deserves it" : this is like another human being you're talking about. He might be doing it for the money. The main people to blame are all the arena spectators giving the demand for the sport. This guy could just be some average joe who is trying to get his kids money to get through school. He is a complete stranger to all of us and without even thinking about his motivations and life, you readily say that he deserves to get a bull horn through his lower jaw.
2) Slaughter houses. As a fact, there are several times more cows being kept in small pens and being slaughtered. As a fact, these same small pens cause cows an immense amount of stress and disease. And of course, cows for bull fighting are treated (ironically) far better than normal cows.
So what you have is a) a cow that has a very miserable life and then gets slaughtered and b) a cow that has a better life, but dies in a more horrible way. If you are trying to say that a) is any better than b) i'm not sure that the cow really appreciates the arbitrary line you are trying to draw.
Concluding - if you are going to try and have some moral high ground to say that another human being deserves to have his jaw impaled, maybe you might want to examine your own practices least you look hypocritical.
I don't care if you call me hypocritical, but I personally have no sympathy for a person who willing, and personally, tortures an animal for entertainment - even if that person died. I try to avoid the killing of all animals, though I accept that the laws of nature(an society) make that impossible.
You can argue the morality of factory farming and how every person(American at least) is partially responsible for that, however, I bet that most of the people who eat factory farmed meat(including myself, though I try to get organic) would never directly kill an animal just for sport and so other people could enjoy themselves.
Read the first part of my post. We have no idea about this particular matador's motivations, but you are taking all the normative critique about the sport, and blaming it on this one particular person. And look again at the "morality of the farming factory." Most people won't directly kill an animal for sport, but they kill a) far MORE cows and b) kill it without a thought (which arguably might be worse). Now if we consider this from the point of cows, there really is no difference. In fact you're more likely to get ill treated in a farming factory.
so you're proposing that killing them in an arena would be the lesser of two evils.
well considering how the majority of the populace doesn't know the horrors of a farming factory, this does seem quite evil
I'm actually saying that any difference we are trying to make between factory killing and arena killing is really just arbitrary distinctions that don't matter to the cow. It's equally cruel to the cow. So if you are going to condemn one (and say that a man deserves getting his jaw impaled) while saying the other is "fine"or "necessary"or "totally different," you are trying to make yourself feel better.
no.. im saying i dislike both by saying the man deserves to get his jaw impaled. i don't condone the horrible condiitions cows go through but neither of these things can be changed by my bitching and moaning
On June 10 2010 04:39 [NyC]HoBbes wrote: Why does it feel like every time anyone brings up bullfighting (not just online, in general), 99% of people react by going "ANIMAL TORTURE ANIMAL TORTURE YOU TERRIBLE PERSON BLABLABLABLA NOT LISTENING TO YOU"
Firstly, anyone who eats beef and claims bullfighting is worse is deluding themselves. Thinking about the way the animal is killed fails to take into account a whole bunch of other things. Let me propose a couple of scenarios for you.
You may choose one of these two lives.
1)- You live in a small cell your entire life. You are not allowed contact with the opposite sex, and are fed periodically at certain intervals. One day, you are painlessly killed.
2)- You may eat, sleep, and have sex whenever you feel like. One day, a Hispanic man in tights kills you with a sword.
The idea that killing a bull for a bullfight is somehow wasteful is also bullshit. The world would be a better place overall if people stopped eating beef entirely. It is inefficient, and just as wasteful or resources that could be better expended feeding the hungry. Eating beef is a luxury, as is attending a bullfight.
Bullfights are cultural events that are, for the most part, no more or less evil than the meat or leather industries. Once you've fixed the legitimate abuses of animals that occur in the world, come after my corridas. Until then, kindly leave bullfighting the fuck alone. Stop letting the public and rather gory nature of the event get in the way of logic
how about we get rid of the blatant abuse that we see happening in front of us?
1) We see african americans being blatently abused IN FRONT OF OUR EYES 2) we hear about africans across the sea being treated horrible
i would hope to god we answer the problem that is presented to ourselves first
Well... the farming factories mistreating cows is a far more pervasive problem than bullfighting... so I'm not sure what kind of point you are trying to make
On June 10 2010 03:11 IntoTheWow wrote: I did not use the word pleasure, I said entertainment. I also did not talk about sustaining human life, but eating.
Nice try though!
edit: also, Zoler
| V
lol kid you can't point out that I used different words and pretend that means something until you've given a reason why it means something. Pleasure encompasses entertainment, so I'm perfectly fine there. I only brought up sustaining human life as a way of anticipating a possible counterargument that you could make. That is, you could say we need to eat so killing for beef isn't for pleasure, even though we do get pleasure out of it. But of course that's incorrect because killing for beef is almost always for pleasure and hardly ever out of necessity. So, do you have any arguments or logic or just your typical bullshit one liners? =[
Pleasure encompasses entertainment. People eat beef instead of tofu all day because it tastes good to them that's true.
My problem with bull fighting is that people are directly celebrating this torture. It's in their face, they understand whats going on, and they're applauding the slow brutal murder of an animal for no reason.
The meat industry works really hard to keep images of factory farming abuses out of the media and out of people's minds. I'm well aware of the terrible conditions that most beef cattle are kept in in this country (US). It is inhumane and it equates to torture. Most people in this country however are not aware of bad these conditions really are. As I said, there is an incredibly powerful industry working overtime to insure that this is the case. The people watching bull fighting cannot make that claim. The torture is exactly what they're reveling in.
I know that these people's ignorance does not make the lives of these animals any better, but it also has no effect on bull fighting at all. As I mentioned, I personally don't eat factory farmed beef for that reason.
Best post in this thread and really the first decent answer to what nony was saying, unlike others who pretended like nony didnt even have a point and some people that were rather hypocritical. If you think that the animals you eat are being properly treated then you are rather naive and wrong in about 90% of all cases. Also please please stop throwing the word "troll" around whenever someone has a different point of view.
On a different note, one day I'll become a vegetarian... one day....
On June 10 2010 04:39 [NyC]HoBbes wrote: Why does it feel like every time anyone brings up bullfighting (not just online, in general), 99% of people react by going "ANIMAL TORTURE ANIMAL TORTURE YOU TERRIBLE PERSON BLABLABLABLA NOT LISTENING TO YOU"
Firstly, anyone who eats beef and claims bullfighting is worse is deluding themselves. Thinking about the way the animal is killed fails to take into account a whole bunch of other things. Let me propose a couple of scenarios for you.
You may choose one of these two lives.
1)- You live in a small cell your entire life. You are not allowed contact with the opposite sex, and are fed periodically at certain intervals. One day, you are painlessly killed.
2)- You may eat, sleep, and have sex whenever you feel like. One day, a Hispanic man in tights kills you with a sword.
The idea that killing a bull for a bullfight is somehow wasteful is also bullshit. The world would be a better place overall if people stopped eating beef entirely. It is inefficient, and just as wasteful or resources that could be better expended feeding the hungry. Eating beef is a luxury, as is attending a bullfight.
Bullfights are cultural events that are, for the most part, no more or less evil than the meat or leather industries. Once you've fixed the legitimate abuses of animals that occur in the world, come after my corridas. Until then, kindly leave bullfighting the fuck alone. Stop letting the public and rather gory nature of the event get in the way of logic
how about we get rid of the blatant abuse that we see happening in front of us?
1) We see african americans being blatently abused IN FRONT OF OUR EYES 2) we hear about africans across the sea being treated horrible
i would hope to god we answer the problem that is presented to ourselves first
Well... the farming factories mistreating cows is a far more pervasive problem than bullfighting... so I'm not sure what kind of point you are trying to make
oh so just because cows are being treated more harshly in one area we should just let the other continue?
On June 10 2010 04:14 levelping wrote: I'm not sure people realise what they are saying. For people appealing to some kind of moral high ground, you might want to realise that
1) "he deserves it" : this is like another human being you're talking about. He might be doing it for the money. The main people to blame are all the arena spectators giving the demand for the sport. This guy could just be some average joe who is trying to get his kids money to get through school. He is a complete stranger to all of us and without even thinking about his motivations and life, you readily say that he deserves to get a bull horn through his lower jaw.
2) Slaughter houses. As a fact, there are several times more cows being kept in small pens and being slaughtered. As a fact, these same small pens cause cows an immense amount of stress and disease. And of course, cows for bull fighting are treated (ironically) far better than normal cows.
So what you have is a) a cow that has a very miserable life and then gets slaughtered and b) a cow that has a better life, but dies in a more horrible way. If you are trying to say that a) is any better than b) i'm not sure that the cow really appreciates the arbitrary line you are trying to draw.
Concluding - if you are going to try and have some moral high ground to say that another human being deserves to have his jaw impaled, maybe you might want to examine your own practices least you look hypocritical.
I don't care if you call me hypocritical, but I personally have no sympathy for a person who willing, and personally, tortures an animal for entertainment - even if that person died. I try to avoid the killing of all animals, though I accept that the laws of nature(an society) make that impossible.
You can argue the morality of factory farming and how every person(American at least) is partially responsible for that, however, I bet that most of the people who eat factory farmed meat(including myself, though I try to get organic) would never directly kill an animal just for sport and so other people could enjoy themselves.
Read the first part of my post. We have no idea about this particular matador's motivations, but you are taking all the normative critique about the sport, and blaming it on this one particular person. And look again at the "morality of the farming factory." Most people won't directly kill an animal for sport, but they kill a) far MORE cows and b) kill it without a thought (which arguably might be worse). Now if we consider this from the point of cows, there really is no difference. In fact you're more likely to get ill treated in a farming factory.
so you're proposing that killing them in an arena would be the lesser of two evils.
well considering how the majority of the populace doesn't know the horrors of a farming factory, this does seem quite evil
I'm actually saying that any difference we are trying to make between factory killing and arena killing is really just arbitrary distinctions that don't matter to the cow. It's equally cruel to the cow. So if you are going to condemn one (and say that a man deserves getting his jaw impaled) while saying the other is "fine"or "necessary"or "totally different," you are trying to make yourself feel better.
no.. im saying i dislike both by saying the man deserves to get his jaw impaled. i don't condone the horrible condiitions cows go through but neither of these things can be changed by my bitching and moaning
So I guess the kicker is... do you eat beef? If you do, then there's some serious hypocrisy going on here. You don't condone the horrible conditions, but you eat the meat anyway. On the other hand, another human being deserves to get a horn to his mouth.
On June 10 2010 04:39 [NyC]HoBbes wrote: Why does it feel like every time anyone brings up bullfighting (not just online, in general), 99% of people react by going "ANIMAL TORTURE ANIMAL TORTURE YOU TERRIBLE PERSON BLABLABLABLA NOT LISTENING TO YOU"
Firstly, anyone who eats beef and claims bullfighting is worse is deluding themselves. Thinking about the way the animal is killed fails to take into account a whole bunch of other things. Let me propose a couple of scenarios for you.
You may choose one of these two lives.
1)- You live in a small cell your entire life. You are not allowed contact with the opposite sex, and are fed periodically at certain intervals. One day, you are painlessly killed.
2)- You may eat, sleep, and have sex whenever you feel like. One day, a Hispanic man in tights kills you with a sword.
The idea that killing a bull for a bullfight is somehow wasteful is also bullshit. The world would be a better place overall if people stopped eating beef entirely. It is inefficient, and just as wasteful or resources that could be better expended feeding the hungry. Eating beef is a luxury, as is attending a bullfight.
Bullfights are cultural events that are, for the most part, no more or less evil than the meat or leather industries. Once you've fixed the legitimate abuses of animals that occur in the world, come after my corridas. Until then, kindly leave bullfighting the fuck alone. Stop letting the public and rather gory nature of the event get in the way of logic
To me, it is far worse to directly participate in the torture and killing of an animal. In the end, I hate how factory farmed animals are raised, and if something happened to one of their animal handlers I wouldn't feel much sympathy either, but someone who had no direct involvement in the killing is not the equal to someone who just stabbed a sword through a bull's back.
To me, the motive is far worse than the actual action. Doesn't make a wrong action committed for good reason right, but it does make it better then a wrong action committed for a bad reason.
On June 10 2010 03:11 IntoTheWow wrote: I did not use the word pleasure, I said entertainment. I also did not talk about sustaining human life, but eating.
Nice try though!
edit: also, Zoler
| V
lol kid you can't point out that I used different words and pretend that means something until you've given a reason why it means something. Pleasure encompasses entertainment, so I'm perfectly fine there. I only brought up sustaining human life as a way of anticipating a possible counterargument that you could make. That is, you could say we need to eat so killing for beef isn't for pleasure, even though we do get pleasure out of it. But of course that's incorrect because killing for beef is almost always for pleasure and hardly ever out of necessity. So, do you have any arguments or logic or just your typical bullshit one liners? =[
Pleasure encompasses entertainment. People eat beef instead of tofu all day because it tastes good to them that's true.
My problem with bull fighting is that people are directly celebrating this torture. It's in their face, they understand whats going on, and they're applauding the slow brutal murder of an animal for no reason.
The meat industry works really hard to keep images of factory farming abuses out of the media and out of people's minds. I'm well aware of the terrible conditions that most beef cattle are kept in in this country (US). It is inhumane and it equates to torture. Most people in this country however are not aware of bad these conditions really are. As I said, there is an incredibly powerful industry working overtime to insure that this is the case. The people watching bull fighting cannot make that claim. The torture is exactly what they're reveling in.
I know that these people's ignorance does not make the lives of these animals any better, but it also has no effect on bull fighting at all. As I mentioned, I personally don't eat factory farmed beef for that reason.
On June 10 2010 04:39 [NyC]HoBbes wrote: Why does it feel like every time anyone brings up bullfighting (not just online, in general), 99% of people react by going "ANIMAL TORTURE ANIMAL TORTURE YOU TERRIBLE PERSON BLABLABLABLA NOT LISTENING TO YOU"
Firstly, anyone who eats beef and claims bullfighting is worse is deluding themselves. Thinking about the way the animal is killed fails to take into account a whole bunch of other things. Let me propose a couple of scenarios for you.
You may choose one of these two lives.
1)- You live in a small cell your entire life. You are not allowed contact with the opposite sex, and are fed periodically at certain intervals. One day, you are painlessly killed.
2)- You may eat, sleep, and have sex whenever you feel like. One day, a Hispanic man in tights kills you with a sword.
The idea that killing a bull for a bullfight is somehow wasteful is also bullshit. The world would be a better place overall if people stopped eating beef entirely. It is inefficient, and just as wasteful or resources that could be better expended feeding the hungry. Eating beef is a luxury, as is attending a bullfight.
Bullfights are cultural events that are, for the most part, no more or less evil than the meat or leather industries. Once you've fixed the legitimate abuses of animals that occur in the world, come after my corridas. Until then, kindly leave bullfighting the fuck alone. Stop letting the public and rather gory nature of the event get in the way of logic
how about we get rid of the blatant abuse that we see happening in front of us?
1) We see african americans being blatently abused IN FRONT OF OUR EYES 2) we hear about africans across the sea being treated horrible
i would hope to god we answer the problem that is presented to ourselves first
Well... the farming factories mistreating cows is a far more pervasive problem than bullfighting... so I'm not sure what kind of point you are trying to make
oh so just because cows are being treated more harshly in one area we should just let the other continue?
You're now just being all over the place now. You were the one that said we should tackle the most apparent problem first. I pointed out that this most apparent problem is factories. And now you're saying the exact opposite...
and @Myles
Well your moral distinctions are firstly a) lost on the cows who are the ones getting killed and b) are really just a comfortable moral distinction you are trying to make to justify your own hypocrisy.
On June 10 2010 04:39 [NyC]HoBbes wrote: Why does it feel like every time anyone brings up bullfighting (not just online, in general), 99% of people react by going "ANIMAL TORTURE ANIMAL TORTURE YOU TERRIBLE PERSON BLABLABLABLA NOT LISTENING TO YOU"
Firstly, anyone who eats beef and claims bullfighting is worse is deluding themselves. Thinking about the way the animal is killed fails to take into account a whole bunch of other things. Let me propose a couple of scenarios for you.
You may choose one of these two lives.
1)- You live in a small cell your entire life. You are not allowed contact with the opposite sex, and are fed periodically at certain intervals. One day, you are painlessly killed.
2)- You may eat, sleep, and have sex whenever you feel like. One day, a Hispanic man in tights kills you with a sword.
The idea that killing a bull for a bullfight is somehow wasteful is also bullshit. The world would be a better place overall if people stopped eating beef entirely. It is inefficient, and just as wasteful or resources that could be better expended feeding the hungry. Eating beef is a luxury, as is attending a bullfight.
Bullfights are cultural events that are, for the most part, no more or less evil than the meat or leather industries. Once you've fixed the legitimate abuses of animals that occur in the world, come after my corridas. Until then, kindly leave bullfighting the fuck alone. Stop letting the public and rather gory nature of the event get in the way of logic
how about we get rid of the blatant abuse that we see happening in front of us?
1) We see african americans being blatently abused IN FRONT OF OUR EYES 2) we hear about africans across the sea being treated horrible
i would hope to god we answer the problem that is presented to ourselves first
Well... the farming factories mistreating cows is a far more pervasive problem than bullfighting... so I'm not sure what kind of point you are trying to make
oh so just because cows are being treated more harshly in one area we should just let the other continue?
You're now just being all over the place now. You were the one that said we should tackle the most apparent problem first. I pointed out that this most apparent problem is factories. And now you're saying the exact opposite...
and @Myles
Well your moral distinctions are firstly a) lost on the cows who are the ones getting killed and b) are really just a comfortable moral distinction you are trying to make to justify your own hypocrisy.
i am saying we should go after the more visible problem first
do you see the farm system advertising the brutal mistreatment of animals? whereas in this carribas shit, people watch the brutal killings of animals for "entertainment"
WOW that guy is soooooooooooooooooooooooooo fucking lucky. Literally a miracle right there everyone.
What are the odds that the tip ended up coming back out of his mouth, rather than stabbing his brain and killing him instantly? There are no such odds, yet he prevailed. BTW this is so cool.
On June 10 2010 04:53 broz0rs wrote: that pic is just disgusting. however, it's probably 2nd to the most awesome bullfighting gore pic. here's the 1st:
EPT![[image loading]](http://static.noticiasdenavarra.com/images/2010/06/04/efe_20100604_141357_pa4583_1.jpg)
