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On June 10 2010 03:57 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 03:50 katull wrote:On June 10 2010 03:37 IntoTheWow wrote:On June 10 2010 03:34 katull wrote:On June 10 2010 03:23 IntoTheWow wrote:On June 10 2010 03:16 katull wrote:
To those who condemn bullfighting (and thus consider this funny):
I hold this sport for equally brutal and vicious, but I don't condemn this sport.
Not all bulls tested and bred for this have to endure this fight, and all of them are held in conditions unequal to any farming/breeding conditions you find in Europe. I don't want to write "happy cows", but this is as close as you can get...
If you eat meat as I do, consider how those animals are kept, and if you find that you don't really care, you shouldn't judge those who kill them for the barbaric enjoyment of the masses while *not* keeping them in small confinements all day long, transport them brutally for hours without water or food just to throw half of the meat away because it's cheap anyway.
I have more to write (and cite) but I'll wait for the first responses ^^ 2 wrongs != 1 right So you are saying he deserved this? Could you laugh at this? By that logic (considering my prior points) anyone who eats meat deserves the same. Is that your point? Please elaborate I'm not praising the sport, I'm praising the way they keep their cattle. If I would have to chose as a cow, I'd rather live happily and fight unfairly than being tortured all my life... Yeah and If I were god I would cure world hunger. But you are not a cow. And cows don't get to choose. Now back into reality. Please try not to put words I didn't not say into my mouth. What I said is that even if bulls are treated nicer before being tortured in public, that doesn't take away the fact that they are indeed tortured for entertainment. Better than bad, can still be bad. Trying to go off the tangent with the way meat is mass produced today doesn't work either. We are not talking about that in this thread, and even if we were, it doesn't make this 'sport' any better. You are attacking a strawman. My point is just that people have a misconception between what they do and others do, and form opinions ("I find this funny") based on that. My point is *not* that this sport is ok because they keep the animals happy. That is why I wrote " To those who condemn bullfighting (and thus consider this funny)". I wasn't putting words in your mouth, I thought you felt called upon that. The comparisons mass product meat / bullfight holds under this light: if you just find it funny because you condemn this sport and " you find that you don't really care [...] how those animals are kept" then I say you are in no position to point fingers. Maybe it's my english and I'm not clarifying my point enough. To make things clearer. My point is, you brought the way meat is mass produced nowadays. It has nothing to do with this.
If you disregard that then my post has no point.
On June 10 2010 03:57 IntoTheWow wrote:
Also I never said "I didn't care about the way animals are kept". You did, so you are the one who has to answer me, not me. I get to point fingers freely wut!
I said if you find you don't really care ... if you do, then yes. This sport *is* condemnable. I never said otherwise.
On June 10 2010 03:57 IntoTheWow wrote:
The way animals are treated in production lines doesn't make this any better.
No it doesn't, right. I still cannot find this funny, and I believe most people find this funny because they hate this sport (with which I can agree) without taking a look at themselves (which is my point). If that doesn't hold true for you, then yes, I get your point.
On June 10 2010 03:57 IntoTheWow wrote:
Torturing in the US would be acceptable if It happened more in other countries? Not in the way I hold my moral scale. The same applies to this.
I really don't get what you mean by this. Torture is always bad. So if you are in a position where you torture (mass meat from mass manufacturers) and you point fingers at others who torture differently, then I say hypocrite. I am saying this in a general tone, I'm not implying you are.
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On June 10 2010 03:41 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 03:34 Pengu1n wrote:On June 10 2010 03:12 Thrill wrote:On June 10 2010 03:08 Liquid`NonY wrote:On June 10 2010 03:05 IntoTheWow wrote:On June 10 2010 03:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Wait why all the hate on him? None of you guys eat beef or what? =/ Killing to eat != killing for entertainment. Beef isn't needed to sustain human life. Humans eat it for pleasure. Eating beef is killing for pleasure, just the same. That's not even relevant to the argument. Yeah, we eat beef for pleasure but most of us who purchase packed meat assume that the animal has been put down humanly. There's a huge difference to assumed humane killing (i realize this is not always the case, but it is by principle illegal and when a case surfaces that animals have been killed in an inhumane fashion, it always makes headline news at least where i live) and intended suffering for entertainment. Go troll somewhere else. Whether the animal is put down humanly or not its still being killed when it wants to live. The matadors and the people who enjoy the fights look it with the idea that the bull is going to be killed anyways, at least this way it has a chance of dieing with honor, maybe more painfully but the bull also has a chance to fight back against its killer. I would prefer myself to die with a fight than be put down involuntarily with no chance to do anything. Yeah nice fair fight. The moment the person is injured a bunch of people get the bull away and take the person to a doctor. The moment the bull is injured people clap and scream! This photo was not the bull dying with honor, it was just a crack in their torturing system.
I never said the fight was fair. The bull dies no matter what of course its not fair. I'm not even saying I agree with bullfighting I'm just trying to explain the idea behind bull fighting. Its easy to judge these fighters when you don't understand their culture and how they think. In fact, a good matador is one who can kill the bull in just one strike. Any more than that and the matador is frowned upon by the audience.
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United States5162 Posts
On June 10 2010 04:14 levelping wrote:
I'm not sure people realise what they are saying. For people appealing to some kind of moral high ground, you might want to realise that
1) "he deserves it" : this is like another human being you're talking about. He might be doing it for the money. The main people to blame are all the arena spectators giving the demand for the sport. This guy could just be some average joe who is trying to get his kids money to get through school. He is a complete stranger to all of us and without even thinking about his motivations and life, you readily say that he deserves to get a bull horn through his lower jaw.
2) Slaughter houses. As a fact, there are several times more cows being kept in small pens and being slaughtered. As a fact, these same small pens cause cows an immense amount of stress and disease. And of course, cows for bull fighting are treated (ironically) far better than normal cows.
So what you have is a) a cow that has a very miserable life and then gets slaughtered and b) a cow that has a better life, but dies in a more horrible way. If you are trying to say that a) is any better than b) i'm not sure that the cow really appreciates the arbitrary line you are trying to draw.
Concluding - if you are going to try and have some moral high ground to say that another human being deserves to have his jaw impaled, maybe you might want to examine your own practices least you look hypocritical.
I don't care if you call me hypocritical, but I personally have no sympathy for a person who willing, and personally, tortures an animal for entertainment - even if that person died. I try to avoid the killing of all animals, though I accept that the laws of nature(an society) make that impossible.
You can argue the morality of factory farming and how every person(American at least) is partially responsible for that, however, I bet that most of the people who eat factory farmed meat(including myself, though I try to get organic) would never directly kill an animal just for sport and so other people could enjoy themselves.
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I got kind of disappointed I hoped to see him get more hurt. Animals are not supposed to get tortured and I think it's a perfectly fine opinion to have even if you like eat meat.
No I don't protest and do everything in my power to stop it but when I see someone torture a bull I will cheer for the bull every time. I will also buy mostly meat from Sweden because here they mostly sell beef from either Sweden or a catholic country and they treat animals like shit
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On June 10 2010 04:07 OneOther wrote:
i don't care if the sport is ethical or unethical. laughing at the guy getting seriously hurt like that, or saying things like "he had it coming" is just not cool. what if he got killed, or even paralyzed for life? would you be saying the same thing? you are GLAD that he got hurt? what the hell...
This statement doesn't mean anything. My behavior is always a reaction to the current situation, not all possible situations. If he was killed or paralyzed for life I would not be laughing at him, but he wasn't. He's fine. He will make a full recovery. Can't say the same for all the animals tortured to death.
Would you be saying the same thing if instead of talking about bull fighting we were arguing about something completely different? No? I guess we should stick to things that actually are.
I respect NonY for making logical arguments and dealing with facts. I would like to hear his response to my previous post if hes still reading.
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Its so sad people can react like that to this.
Its like, if you see that the school bully is choking on the food he stole from you or something, you start laughing instead of helping him, even tho hes not a really good guy... that actually makes you even worst than him. If you enjoy watching any human being injured that way, theres no way that person is worst than you, no mather what they did.
I hope I made my point clear with that.
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On June 10 2010 04:07 OneOther wrote:
i don't care if the sport is ethical or unethical. laughing at the guy getting seriously hurt like that, or saying things like "he had it coming" is just not cool. what if he got killed, or even paralyzed for life? would you be saying the same thing? you are GLAD that he got hurt? what the hell...
dont you think you should analyze the risks before you enter something such as bullfighting?
if they're injured that is their own fault whether it be lack of skill or momentary slip up.
Its his own fault let him wallow in his pain and learn from it
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On June 10 2010 04:07 OneOther wrote:
intothewow you need to drop that condescending tone whenever you get into discussions/arguments regardless of whether you are right or wrong, because you are not all that great and it gets really annoying
i don't care if the sport is ethical or unethical. laughing at the guy getting seriously hurt like that, or saying things like "he had it coming" is just not cool. what if he got killed, or even paralyzed for life? would you be saying the same thing? you are GLAD that he got hurt? what the hell...
Well...yea I would personally.
You do these things with the knowledge that bad things just might happen and you still do it anyway. How badly he got hurt is generally irrelevant in the situation at hand.
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Corrida is one of the most horrible and disgusting show of civilizated world.
They say that it is a tradition...well..we burt with too but for grace of god we are enough clever to stop these things with evolution of society -___-
Spain shame on you for not make this show forbidden!
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This thread reminds me of Temple Grandin and her research in humane ways to kill cattle for food.
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On June 10 2010 04:30 MadJack wrote:
Its so sad people can react like that to this.
Its like, if you see that the school bully is choking on the food he stole from you or something, you start laughing instead of helping him, even tho hes not a really good guy... that actually makes you even worst than him. If you enjoy watching any human being injured that way, theres no way that person is worst than you, no mather what they did.
I hope I made my point clear with that.
uhm.. bad analogy.
how about.. the school bully beats the shit out of some kid with a bat. Said bully starts choking on lunch. I for one would not lift a finger to help the bully. Kid can go die
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On June 10 2010 04:26 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 04:14 levelping wrote:
I'm not sure people realise what they are saying. For people appealing to some kind of moral high ground, you might want to realise that
1) "he deserves it" : this is like another human being you're talking about. He might be doing it for the money. The main people to blame are all the arena spectators giving the demand for the sport. This guy could just be some average joe who is trying to get his kids money to get through school. He is a complete stranger to all of us and without even thinking about his motivations and life, you readily say that he deserves to get a bull horn through his lower jaw.
2) Slaughter houses. As a fact, there are several times more cows being kept in small pens and being slaughtered. As a fact, these same small pens cause cows an immense amount of stress and disease. And of course, cows for bull fighting are treated (ironically) far better than normal cows.
So what you have is a) a cow that has a very miserable life and then gets slaughtered and b) a cow that has a better life, but dies in a more horrible way. If you are trying to say that a) is any better than b) i'm not sure that the cow really appreciates the arbitrary line you are trying to draw.
Concluding - if you are going to try and have some moral high ground to say that another human being deserves to have his jaw impaled, maybe you might want to examine your own practices least you look hypocritical. I don't care if you call me hypocritical, but I personally have no sympathy for a person who willing, and personally, tortures an animal for entertainment - even if that person died. I try to avoid the killing of all animals, though I accept that the laws of nature(an society) make that impossible. You can argue the morality of factory farming and how every person(American at least) is partially responsible for that, however, I bet that most of the people who eat factory farmed meat(including myself, though I try to get organic) would never directly kill an animal just for sport and so other people could enjoy themselves.
Read the first part of my post. We have no idea about this particular matador's motivations, but you are taking all the normative critique about the sport, and blaming it on this one particular person. And look again at the "morality of the farming factory." Most people won't directly kill an animal for sport, but they kill a) far MORE cows and b) kill it without a thought (which arguably might be worse). Now if we consider this from the point of cows, there really is no difference. In fact you're more likely to get ill treated in a farming factory.
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On June 10 2010 04:30 MadJack wrote:
Its so sad people can react like that to this.
Its like, if you see that the school bully is choking on the food he stole from you or something, you start laughing instead of helping him, even tho hes not a really good guy... that actually makes you even worst than him. If you enjoy watching any human being injured that way, theres no way that person is worst than you, no mather what they did.
I hope I made my point clear with that.
The analogy doesn't work. I didn't ignore this person's need of immediate medical attention. This person's misfortune has already occurred. I can't help or hurt him. He won't die without my aid.
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On June 10 2010 04:37 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 04:26 Myles wrote:On June 10 2010 04:14 levelping wrote:
I'm not sure people realise what they are saying. For people appealing to some kind of moral high ground, you might want to realise that
1) "he deserves it" : this is like another human being you're talking about. He might be doing it for the money. The main people to blame are all the arena spectators giving the demand for the sport. This guy could just be some average joe who is trying to get his kids money to get through school. He is a complete stranger to all of us and without even thinking about his motivations and life, you readily say that he deserves to get a bull horn through his lower jaw.
2) Slaughter houses. As a fact, there are several times more cows being kept in small pens and being slaughtered. As a fact, these same small pens cause cows an immense amount of stress and disease. And of course, cows for bull fighting are treated (ironically) far better than normal cows.
So what you have is a) a cow that has a very miserable life and then gets slaughtered and b) a cow that has a better life, but dies in a more horrible way. If you are trying to say that a) is any better than b) i'm not sure that the cow really appreciates the arbitrary line you are trying to draw.
Concluding - if you are going to try and have some moral high ground to say that another human being deserves to have his jaw impaled, maybe you might want to examine your own practices least you look hypocritical. I don't care if you call me hypocritical, but I personally have no sympathy for a person who willing, and personally, tortures an animal for entertainment - even if that person died. I try to avoid the killing of all animals, though I accept that the laws of nature(an society) make that impossible. You can argue the morality of factory farming and how every person(American at least) is partially responsible for that, however, I bet that most of the people who eat factory farmed meat(including myself, though I try to get organic) would never directly kill an animal just for sport and so other people could enjoy themselves. Read the first part of my post. We have no idea about this particular matador's motivations, but you are taking all the normative critique about the sport, and blaming it on this one particular person. And look again at the "morality of the farming factory." Most people won't directly kill an animal for sport, but they kill a) far MORE cows and b) kill it without a thought (which arguably might be worse). Now if we consider this from the point of cows, there really is no difference. In fact you're more likely to get ill treated in a farming factory.
so you're proposing that killing them in an arena would be the lesser of two evils.
well considering how the majority of the populace doesn't know the horrors of a farming factory, this does seem quite evil
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There was a similar debate in England before fox hunting got banned. As has been pointed out by various people here, it seemed extremely hypocritical to me for anybody to call for the ban of a 'sport' which brings pleasure to people and yet happily tolerate the living conditions of intensive farming.
What gives anybody the moral authority to say one is wrong while the other is right?
Furthermore, as MadJack put it, if he 'deserved it' for taking pleasure from animal cruelty, what do you deserve who take pleasure from human distress?
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Why does it feel like every time anyone brings up bullfighting (not just online, in general), 99% of people react by going "ANIMAL TORTURE ANIMAL TORTURE YOU TERRIBLE PERSON BLABLABLABLA NOT LISTENING TO YOU"
Firstly, anyone who eats beef and claims bullfighting is worse is deluding themselves. Thinking about the way the animal is killed fails to take into account a whole bunch of other things. Let me propose a couple of scenarios for you.
You may choose one of these two lives.
1)- You live in a small cell your entire life. You are not allowed contact with the opposite sex, and are fed periodically at certain intervals. One day, you are painlessly killed.
2)- You may eat, sleep, and have sex whenever you feel like. One day, a Hispanic man in tights kills you with a sword.
The idea that killing a bull for a bullfight is somehow wasteful is also bullshit. The world would be a better place overall if people stopped eating beef entirely. It is inefficient, and just as wasteful or resources that could be better expended feeding the hungry. Eating beef is a luxury, as is attending a bullfight.
Bullfights are cultural events that are, for the most part, no more or less evil than the meat or leather industries. Once you've fixed the legitimate abuses of animals that occur in the world, come after my corridas. Until then, kindly leave bullfighting the fuck alone. Stop letting the public and rather gory nature of the event get in the way of logic
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So people like watching this?
Poll: Do you get enjoyment out of watching thisno (24) 57% yes (10) 24% I didn't watch (8) 19% yes but I wish I could say no (0) 0% 42 total votes Your vote: Do you get enjoyment out of watching this (Vote): yes
(Vote): no
(Vote): yes but I wish I could say no
(Vote): I didn't watch
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Netherlands6142 Posts
He got it coming, I hope it hurt and I wouldn't mind if he chokes to death on his own blood.
also
I think this is a completely validated opinion if you lock up an animal for 2 months, starve it, wrap his balls in barbed wire and make it your goal to slowly stab him to death for the entertainment of people.
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On June 10 2010 03:12 Thrill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 03:08 Liquid`NonY wrote:On June 10 2010 03:05 IntoTheWow wrote:On June 10 2010 03:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Wait why all the hate on him? None of you guys eat beef or what? =/ Killing to eat != killing for entertainment. Beef isn't needed to sustain human life. Humans eat it for pleasure. Eating beef is killing for pleasure, just the same. That's not even relevant to the argument. Yeah, we eat beef for pleasure but most of us who purchase packed meat assume that the animal has been put down humanly. There's a huge difference to assumed humane killing (i realize this is not always the case, but it is by principle illegal and when a case surfaces that animals have been killed in an inhumane fashion, it always makes headline news at least where i live) and intended suffering for entertainment. Go troll somewhere else.
You assume that the animal has been put down humanly... But that's not always the case
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On June 10 2010 04:39 [NyC]HoBbes wrote:
Why does it feel like every time anyone brings up bullfighting (not just online, in general), 99% of people react by going "ANIMAL TORTURE ANIMAL TORTURE YOU TERRIBLE PERSON BLABLABLABLA NOT LISTENING TO YOU"
Firstly, anyone who eats beef and claims bullfighting is worse is deluding themselves. Thinking about the way the animal is killed fails to take into account a whole bunch of other things. Let me propose a couple of scenarios for you.
You may choose one of these two lives.
1)- You live in a small cell your entire life. You are not allowed contact with the opposite sex, and are fed periodically at certain intervals. One day, you are painlessly killed.
2)- You may eat, sleep, and have sex whenever you feel like. One day, a Hispanic man in tights kills you with a sword.
The idea that killing a bull for a bullfight is somehow wasteful is also bullshit. The world would be a better place overall if people stopped eating beef entirely. It is inefficient, and just as wasteful or resources that could be better expended feeding the hungry. Eating beef is a luxury, as is attending a bullfight.
Bullfights are cultural events that are, for the most part, no more or less evil than the meat or leather industries. Once you've fixed the legitimate abuses of animals that occur in the world, come after my corridas. Until then, kindly leave bullfighting the fuck alone. Stop letting the public and rather gory nature of the event get in the way of logic
how about we get rid of the blatant abuse that we see happening in front of us?
1) We see african americans being blatently abused IN FRONT OF OUR EYES
2) we hear about africans across the sea being treated horrible
i would hope to god we answer the problem that is presented to ourselves first
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