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MY BIGGEST concern is meant for 2v2:
It's super easy on a map like twilight for a pair of zergs to go all in air/lings and gain map control, so when i bust in with 5 ravens and a hundred rines with medivacs and the enemy has 20 broodlords (just a large scale comparison yet it applies to a lot of cases) the marines get walled off from broodlings [making target fire almost impossible] and auto shoot the broodlings, so you go to HSM the enemy and mutas/corruptors appear and take them out, there's too much broodlings to shoot up so when you cast HSM they just fly away till the missile dies...
, since the game is full of hard counters, what is the hard counter for broodlords?
its so easy for zerg to tech switch too
and so fast, BOOM all my air is dead because you made vikings, here's a million speedlings
I'm just frustrated with TvZ in both 1v1 and 2v2
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Broodlords are the only unit along with the mothership that cannot outrun a Heat Seaking missle.
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They're expensive, they've got a slow two-step build process, and they're hard countered by any air-to-air unit. They're utterly helpless against their big air counterparts from other races. I don't see how they can be imbalanced.
I can see how they'd be used to end a disproportionate number of games, because they're a really great mopping-up unit, good at destroying buildings with no pathing worries. But "convenient for finishing a won game quickly" is not a balance problem.
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The Broodlord's intrinsic power, relative to some arbitrary equivalent in SC 1, isn't that important. It's what people can do against it in SC 2 that matters.
Terran has many options - the raven and the viking are both natural tech progressions for Terran and they do well vs. Broodlords. Broodlords tend to clump up, and that makes a group of them susceptible to HSM. Vikings outrange Mutas and Corruptors, do massive damage to armored, and can snipe Broodlords from the back. With a combination of vikings and ravens, Broodlord supported armies can be defeated by Terran in the late-game.
For Protoss, though, the going's tough. Void rays simply aren't a realistic counter to BLs because they are fragile, get focused down very easily by units like hydras & mutas which are likely to be in the Zerg's normal army, and are expensive. Phoenixes are even worse because they do 2x5 bonus to light and broodlords are armored and starts with 2 armor, meaning that phoenixes do a total of 6 damage per attack to a broodlord, meaning you'll take down the broodlords roughly five minutes after they finish off your base.
Worst of all, Protoss suffers horribly from the corruptor-broodlord tech path. Mutas are hard to deal with as is, and all a Zerg has to do is get a couple of broodlords to shut down immortal heavy armies, and the corruptors simply destroy colossi, meaning that you have virtually no options for late game except to hope that you can somehow catch the Zerg unawares with his BLs and sentry blink them to death. Carriers? I haven't yet seen carriers used effectively in PvZ. But maybe someone will prove me wrong.
In summary, Protoss needs a counter to Broodlords.
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On April 15 2010 14:43 Half wrote:
Broodlords are the only unit along with the mothership that cannot outrun a Heat Seaking missle.
![[image loading]](http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/6384/fuckyeaheatseaking.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler +I am so, so sorry. It's a disease.
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Nice necro.
I was of the opinion that broodlords were fine for a long time until 2 nights ago. We got rolled by 20 broodlords and it was impossible to focus fire them with a ground army because of the wall of broodlings.
Especially in 2v2, the enemy can make it really hard, if not impossible, to flank them.
Also, an army of them can be crafted from one second to the next in 2v2 thanks to resource abus- sharing. I would have loved to make an aerial counter to them except that they appeared from one second to the next and the time frame between "oh shit! BROODLORDSSSSS" and "gg" was unmeasurably short.
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In the Punic Wars, the Romans had a lot of issue dealing with the general Hannibal, essentially they couldn't attack him because if they did they knew they would get slaughtered. So the Romans had a strategy that applies to this discussion.
The Romans attacked his troops everywhere he wasn't and retreated as soon as they saw his army. Utilizing the fact that he could not be everywhere at once to their advantage.
In the case of brood lords this could be applicable. The units themselves are agonizingly slow and therefore easy to get away from. If he has brood lords somewhere, have your troops everywhere else attacking multiple bases at once.
This puts him in the awkward situation of deciding to either try to move the slow beasts back home to defend, or try to get a win before you mow his base down. In said situation you can delay his damage by trying to kill a lot of broodling or use blink stalkers to keep the brood lords occupied and not killing your buildings while your main army is pushing his base with the advantage that comes from having to spend a fortune to make those bad boy brood lords.
Sorry for using History, it's my major 
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On April 15 2010 14:57 Azarkon wrote:
In summary, Protoss needs a counter to Broodlords.
I thought stalkers with blink was the standard counter at this point.
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I think we’re all in agreement here that in TvZ, Vikings is the way to go vs broodlords.
Now the two most common zerg builds I’ve seen that approaches late game is either muta/ling or mass hydra, each perhaps with a twist of roach or baneling or infestor but that’s really besides the point we’re trying to discuss here.
Let’s look at mass hydra first because it seems to be more prevalent. When you play against that, you should technically just get mmm + tanks if you’re doing bio, or mass hellion / tank if you’re going mech. However, because we have to keep in mind that currently Vikings are the counter to broodlords, everyone who thinks broodlords is fine the way it is thusly assumes that terrans are getting Vikings as well. Such that by the time the broodlord gets out we have enough to kill them.
For every viking you get, you're essentially giving up a tank. 125/100 vs 150/125 (I think?)
now if your opponent goes mass hydra then you're going to need tanks. mmm and hellions alone only gets you so far. so where you get vikings to kill broodlords you're going to be giving up tanks for either defense or offense.
Note that other than to counter the broodlord there is no point in getting mass Vikings when playing against a hydra build. you're not going to get in enough harass / ovie sniping in the long run for you to risk not producing other units like tanks or even dps units like mmm. Truthfully I can’t see a ground force of Vikings pushing with tanks, since the Vikings cost so much gas it’s just not cost efficient (as of opposed to hellions with upgrades)
So for everyone who thinks broodlords are balanced, please realize that you’re asking terrans at least to make a unit purely to counter the broodlords.
alternatively is the muta strat, which i've rarely seen in my games so far and i think that's due to the thor reworking. Obviously zerg can go muta ling, but because it’s so expensive and can blow up really badly I haven’t seen it done much. In that case Vikings become even more precarious since at least hydras would have to move around to dodge tank fire mutas don’t really need to move at all, other thank to dodge mmm fire which the broodlords would absorb anyway.
I don’t know if the same can be said for protoss, but I honestly believe that a zerg who gets broodlords with nothing else is just setting a bad example. 3 broodlords + 15 hydras can really mop the floor in any battle, especially with a range of 9 on the broodlord (I’ve lost with 3 tanks, 2 thors, and a decent marine maurauder army against that exact combination of units)
Lastly please realize that broodlords are not all that difficult to get. No one invests 1000/1000 into broodlords unless they’re just dicking around. The broodlord situation usually comes around like this: lair → muta → hydra → 2 or 3 corruptors (which essentially giving up 3 mutas which after the hydra transition isn’t really that big of a deal (375/300?) that’s maybe like 5 hydras? Apologies for not getting the exact right numbers) and then once they hit hive they just get upgrades and all of a sudden why not get that → greater spire and then it’s only a stone’s throw away from getting 3 broodlords.
My argument comes down to this: it may not look like it, but broodlords are way too cost effective. Adding 3 units to your game should not turn the tide of the battle like broodlords do. 3 defilers can swarm or plague, 3 templar can storm, 3 lurkers can kill 4 hotkeys of units, but that’s all contingent on proper micro and positioning. With broodlords, as long as they hover over protective units they can wreak havoc. Are they completely broken? No. Do they need retooling? Yes.
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They're undoubtedly a very powerful unit, the problem is that in a straight up fight, fair enough, they're not that great, it's the way they synergise with other units and the environment that makes them horrible. They're more capable of cliff abusing than battle cruisers or carriers, especially given the ease zerg has in maintaining an escort once they've teched that high, but the real pain is when a decent zerg supports an ok roach/hydra ground army with broodlords. Quite aside from adding insane damage and range, countering any sneaky micro the opponent might attempt to utilise range, a couple of broodlords is like having a permanent PDD over your army, as the enemy will auto target the broodlings over your forces. In the course of a drawn out battle, a broodlord can add upwards of 4-500 HP to the zerg army from damage directed at Blings instead of line units. Sniping the lord is extremely difficult due to the bulk of the zerg army, while the pressuring effect of the broodlings makes countersniping of any vikings or phoenix rather easy indeed. if one considers this, a broodlord is actually a better 'tank' than an ultra, as well as having comparable damage output, 9 range and flying.
neither carriers nor battlecruisers have this effect, they just add significant damage. BC's are a good bit tougher, carriers are faster and able to harass more effectively by themselves, but neither are in any way as abuseable as the broodling effect.
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On April 15 2010 15:08 Funchucks wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 14:57 Azarkon wrote:
In summary, Protoss needs a counter to Broodlords. I thought stalkers with blink was the standard counter at this point.
It is, rather, the only counter, and it is not a counter at all, because if the Zerg has his broodlords with his army, you'll just blink your stalkers into the middle of his army.
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On April 15 2010 15:08 Wire wrote:
My argument comes down to this: it may not look like it, but broodlords are way too cost effective. Adding 3 units to your game should not turn the tide of the battle like broodlords do. 3 defilers can swarm or plague, 3 templar can storm, 3 lurkers can kill 4 hotkeys of units, but that’s all contingent on proper micro and positioning. With broodlords, as long as they hover over protective units they can wreak havoc. Are they completely broken? No. Do they need retooling? Yes.
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I don't play toss, but I've always had the impression that all you needed to do to make storm effective was select your templars and roll your face across the keyboard.
I think your general analysis is fine but I don't think 3 broodlords really own as much as you want to make it seem. It's once there are enough to stop your army from being able to hit the broodlords that tips the scale from fine to impossible to defeat in a straight up fight.
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On April 15 2010 15:08 Wire wrote:
I think we’re all in agreement here that in TvZ, Vikings is the way to go vs broodlords.
Ravens + vikings, actually. And really, just mass ravens. Look at the Maka vs. Idra game linked in this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=119659 where Maka abuses Ravens to completely annihilate the Zerg army - be it composed of roaches, lings, mutas, or corruptors. He doesn't fight Broodlords there because Idra never got them, but plenty of other high-level games show effective use of Ravens vs. broodlords.
In short, Ravens at the moment are like science vessels in SCBW - they counter just about every Zerg unit in the game, and with a mass of Ravens late game Terrans can easily fight on par with late game Zergs.
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On April 15 2010 15:19 Vexx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 15:08 Wire wrote:
My argument comes down to this: it may not look like it, but broodlords are way too cost effective. Adding 3 units to your game should not turn the tide of the battle like broodlords do. 3 defilers can swarm or plague, 3 templar can storm, 3 lurkers can kill 4 hotkeys of units, but that’s all contingent on proper micro and positioning. With broodlords, as long as they hover over protective units they can wreak havoc. Are they completely broken? No. Do they need retooling? Yes. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I don't play toss, but I've always had the impression that all you needed to do to make storm effective was select your templars and roll your face across the keyboard. I think your general analysis is fine but I don't think 3 broodlords really own as much as you want to make it seem. It's once there are enough to stop your army from being able to hit the broodlords that tips the scale from fine to impossible to defeat in a straight up fight.
Yes, that's all u need to do to make templar effective but after the nerf to storm AoE it covers a horrendously small area so you need almost twice as many storms as you did before. Don't forget that HT are pretty expensive. Also they only do 80 damage per storm and brood lords have 275 hp. It takes a LOT of storms to do significant damage to BLs. Also, after storm are nerf, even brood lords can dodge storm to some degree.
and someone said stalkers were BL counters. Yes, the technically are when they have blink. The only problem is that stalkers are raped by pretty much any zerg ground force so it's ideal but it's the only the Protoss has.
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hey remember this thing?
![[image loading]](http://i43.tinypic.com/108a979.jpg)
maybe she can help
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On April 15 2010 15:15 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 15:08 Funchucks wrote:On April 15 2010 14:57 Azarkon wrote:
In summary, Protoss needs a counter to Broodlords. I thought stalkers with blink was the standard counter at this point. It is, rather, the only counter, and it is not a counter at all, because if the Zerg has his broodlords with his army, you'll just blink your stalkers into the middle of his army.
Okay, so now his broodlords are staying with his army the whole time, which means that he's got a terrain-bound (and force-field blockable) army which only moves at broodlord speed, and they're all stacked up to be stormed at once.
Somehow, I'm not seeing it.
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On April 15 2010 15:02 Funchucks wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 14:43 Half wrote:
Broodlords are the only unit along with the mothership that cannot outrun a Heat Seaking missle. + Show Spoiler +
made me laugh and totally neglect the discussion that was going on about broodlords
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Seems like noone realizes how much broodlords cost lol :|
theyre tier 3 units of course theyre supposed to be good.
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I always thought Tier 3 was like the "This game is epic long and now time for big things to blow stuff up" time
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On March 10 2010 11:51 esla_sol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2010 11:48 PerksPlus wrote:
Pretty sure if they have 6 brood lords you can have 6 battle cruisers, don't really see the problem. not true at all. battlecruisers require a significant alteration in your build. broodlords are a natural progression for late game zergs.
What does this even mean? You mean that the "significant alteration" is that you transition from mid-tier-units to late-tier units? (exactly like the zerg must do to get BLs). Or do you mean that your gameplan involved other late-tier units and that BL is imba because they force you to adopt?
Yes, I understand that you need more buildings, that is one of the keydiffrences between zerg and the other races. Scout and adopt is the key.
These discussions you used to hear about immortals and colossos aswell, for instance, but that was before ppl learnt how to adopt to them. I dont think BLs have been common enough for ppl to learn how to play against them yet. Maybe they need to be nerfed, maybe not, who can say for certain until they really have played them alot? You havent really seen much of BLs in the tourneys, wich seems to indicate to me that BL isnt such a "autowin" that has been suggested here, because to be honest, if you can autowin a tournament, you would, no matter how cheezy strats or imba units youd have to use. So wait and see and hold back on this imba-threads, thats my opinion.
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EPT
