EPTEssentially, this is the perfect army. There's no realistic way to fight against it. The problem I feel is the fact that the Zerg loses NOTHING when spawning a broodling. Imagine Carriers with free interceptors that would shoot out one by one and just attack constantly. It's like that, but Broodlings do more DPS.
Why Broodlords own you - Page 7
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Ecrilon
501 Posts
Essentially, this is the perfect army. There's no realistic way to fight against it. The problem I feel is the fact that the Zerg loses NOTHING when spawning a broodling. Imagine Carriers with free interceptors that would shoot out one by one and just attack constantly. It's like that, but Broodlings do more DPS. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
when zergs tech hive against my terran, they die. Without fail. Straight up broodlords get murdered by MMM extremely quickly. Broodlords and zerglings gets murdered, broodlord and whatever unit combination the zerg has to go with it gets murdered. I disagree completely, at least in ZvT (and zvz too I guess( | ||
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Ocedic
United States1808 Posts
However, if Zerg tries to rush or tech to Broodlord without map control/advantage, he/she will lose. They're highly necessary because Ultralisks are not as good in SC2, so there is no other unit that could fulfill that role. | ||
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LunarC
United States1186 Posts
On April 15 2010 16:23 Ecrilon wrote: Notice your army engagements points. At 9 range, Brood Lords stay in the back and fire broodlings at the front line of enemy units. Notice that for no cost, you have generated a spiky ground barrier that will significantly derail AI and destroy many a ground unit. 3 range in front of Brood Lords you have hydralisks, who are your heavy hitters and anti air. Ground units without range have trouble engaging them at all, due to the aforementioned wall of spikes. Ground units with range are either near the back lines shooting infinitely replenishable broodlings or dying to said broodlings in the front line. With a moderate roach shield 3 range in front of your hydras, you ensure that most hydras survive the engagement. With no ground support, you could send in your air, which tend to die quickly/instantly to Hydra fire when you're Protoss. Essentially, this is the perfect army. There's no realistic way to fight against it. The problem I feel is the fact that the Zerg loses NOTHING when spawning a broodling. Imagine Carriers with free interceptors that would shoot out one by one and just attack constantly. It's like that, but Broodlings do more DPS. Seeker Missiles. Micro well. | ||
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JohannesH
Finland1364 Posts
Think of defilers for example, swarms are so ridiculous but somehow the game plays well anyhow. Maybe zerg is too strong lategame, but thats not attributable to broodlords exclusively. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
I don't know about ZvT, but broodlords are way too tough in PvZ. The ONLY way to stop them is to blink micro and target fire with stalkers. Even then it's really tough. Too much focus has to be on the micro, while the Zerg can just attack+move and spend all his efforts microing. Broodlords are always paired up with corrupters or hydras, so carriers, phoenixes, and void rays don't work well. What do people think about removing broodlords' ability to store 2 attacks, and also make them pay 10 minerals per shot? That way they have an operating cost, which forces the zerg to build the broodling shots instead of attack+move and forget about it, and also using broodlords does not allow zerg to mass up hydras or corrupters as quickly so soft counters to broodlords would exist. | ||
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ZergOwaR
Norway280 Posts
 i dont know exactly what to do against them as terran.. air to air sounds fair enough to me... but as protoss i belive you can find a game that either husky or hdstarcraft commented where broodlords arrive and only survive due to decent cliff abuse. and wonder what protoss used to counter the BL... the stalker, toss allready had buckets of it.. and had the BL been over solid ground they would have melted away. he even says it right in the commentary  oh you say broodlings would block the path? error on your part, blink goes right past broodlings and right under the broodlords i have managed to use broodlords in some games, usually because i was at advantage but wouldnt be able to win with my lower units alone, but i try realy realy hard never to put a broodlord into a position where ground can even reach it like on scrapyard... you dont think i would be dumb enough to send the broodlords in the front door where the massive mmm army awaits? i go around the back where i have the option of backing the hell away of the marine ball and pick a few down. without micro and correct use.. broodlords are countered damn easily. If you were not ready for em.. then get angry at yourself, you failed scouting, you failed adapting, your opponent managed to fool you and you deserved it! learn from it and come back stronger | ||
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zomgzergrush
United States923 Posts
They're like carriers people are starting to notice and people are starting to react accordingly. Get up in their face and snipe the broodlord itself and it's taken care of easily. EDIT: and marine ball's vaporize broodlings so hard, sometimes marines don't even fall at all with medivacs. | ||
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MeruFM
United States167 Posts
Anyways Broodlords are strong because of their range and because of zerg's wonderful all-purpose unit, the upgraded (or downgraded some would say) hydralisk. The two units complement each other perfectly as long as they can stick together. All air and ground is shut off with broodlings tanking most enemy shots and hydralisks taking care of any units that come within range. That's not to say there's no counters at all. As far as I've played, there is one counter from each race against them. Terran: Viking. The 9 range and slightly faster speed make them good snipers where hydralisks can't them down instantly. Toss: warpgate stalkers with blink. Pretty self explanatory, just know all units going in are going to be sacrificed. Storm is also pretty practical to keep the hydralisks at bay though their pathing get retarded with a few broodlings. I think it has something to do with the acceleration of the unit or something. They're not unbeatable even with equal cost armies but seeing as zerg is still capable of being above in base count, it does seem unfair. No, carriers and battlecruisers are not good comparisons. While they might be just as strong, tech switching to them is a much more complicated switch. Games longer than 25 minutes with a zerg can almost always expect broodlords. | ||
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DrivE
United States2554 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 15 2010 17:26 DrivE wrote: The scary thing about broodlords imo is that they can spawn more and more units without any additional resources from the zerg, and that the broodlings just take up so much damage =/ Broodlings do deal so much damage. You really really need armor upgrades vs them else they will tear you to shreds. I think Broodlings get +1 from upgrades, personally I feel that they shouldn't. However, with the current state of melee units atleast Zergs tend not to get melee unpgrades. So yea, without the +3 armor those broodlings are going to be hitting you repeatedly for 4 damage and that really really hurts. As a protoss to really counter Broodlords I think you need stalkers (with +3 armor, at the very least) with blink and if they are using them offensively, a Mothership. Motherships are invaluable defensive units lategame imo and a vortex can be incredibly useful in stopping the roaches/hydra from hitting your stalkers while you quickly dispatch the broodlords. | ||
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Rice
United States1332 Posts
On March 10 2010 11:32 Elaeli wrote: You can get Broodlords in any situation, even if you go the Ultralisk route, as they don't need any air- or ability upgrades to be useful. A T or P on the other hand has to get out of his way and make air units to counter a few Broodlords, significantly weakening their ground force against the already present Ultralings. this might be one of the most ridiculous quotes I have ever read, why shouldnt T or P have to go out of their way to counter the most expensive unit in the game?(and a better question how does the zerg have unlimited money for ultraling AND broodlords) | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12024 Posts
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
I love how biased these types of posts are in telling one side to micro well and assuming the other is retarded. assuming perfect micro, the zerg will spread his broodlords so seeker missiles hit 1 each, maybe a little splash. 3 seeker missiles to kill a broodlord. The only time seeker missiles are actually a good counter is when zerg bunches up all of them so you wipe out like 10 with 5 missiles. A ball of marines that gets into position will vaporize broodlords, but a good zerg will never let that happen with cliff or meatshield abuse, ala carriers in BW Plus alot of you are oversimplifying the problem and taking it as fighting pure broodlord+summoned broodlings. zergs have other units that they will use. yeah stalkers with blink own broodlords if theres nothing else, but what happens if theres 20 hydras under the broodlords? considering the relative DPS's of the units, I'm going to bet on the hydra-broodlord+broodling to kill stalkers first. | ||
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Disastorm
United States922 Posts
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Rice
United States1332 Posts
On April 15 2010 17:42 Chen wrote: I love how biased these types of posts are in telling one side to micro well and assuming the other is retarded. assuming perfect micro, the zerg will spread his broodlords so seeker missiles hit 1 each, maybe a little splash. 3 seeker missiles to kill a broodlord. The only time seeker missiles are actually a good counter is when zerg bunches up all of them so you wipe out like 10 with 5 missiles. A ball of marines that gets into position will vaporize broodlords, but a good zerg will never let that happen with cliff or meatshield abuse, ala carriers in BW Plus alot of you are oversimplifying the problem and taking it as fighting pure broodlord+summoned broodlings. zergs have other units that they will use. yeah stalkers with blink own broodlords if theres nothing else, but what happens if theres 20 hydras under the broodlords? considering the relative DPS's of the units, I'm going to bet on the hydra-broodlord+broodling to kill stalkers first. I'd advise you to read your own post again and realize you are doing THE SAME THING in regards to hydra-broodlord+ broodling vs ...stalker? | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On April 15 2010 15:08 Wire wrote: I think we’re all in agreement here that in TvZ, Vikings is the way to go vs broodlords. Now the two most common zerg builds I’ve seen that approaches late game is either muta/ling or mass hydra, each perhaps with a twist of roach or baneling or infestor but that’s really besides the point we’re trying to discuss here. Let’s look at mass hydra first because it seems to be more prevalent. When you play against that, you should technically just get mmm + tanks if you’re doing bio, or mass hellion / tank if you’re going mech. However, because we have to keep in mind that currently Vikings are the counter to broodlords, everyone who thinks broodlords is fine the way it is thusly assumes that terrans are getting Vikings as well. Such that by the time the broodlord gets out we have enough to kill them. For every viking you get, you're essentially giving up a tank. 125/100 vs 150/125 (I think?) now if your opponent goes mass hydra then you're going to need tanks. mmm and hellions alone only gets you so far. so where you get vikings to kill broodlords you're going to be giving up tanks for either defense or offense. Note that other than to counter the broodlord there is no point in getting mass Vikings when playing against a hydra build. you're not going to get in enough harass / ovie sniping in the long run for you to risk not producing other units like tanks or even dps units like mmm. Truthfully I can’t see a ground force of Vikings pushing with tanks, since the Vikings cost so much gas it’s just not cost efficient (as of opposed to hellions with upgrades) So for everyone who thinks broodlords are balanced, please realize that you’re asking terrans at least to make a unit purely to counter the broodlords. alternatively is the muta strat, which i've rarely seen in my games so far and i think that's due to the thor reworking. Obviously zerg can go muta ling, but because it’s so expensive and can blow up really badly I haven’t seen it done much. In that case Vikings become even more precarious since at least hydras would have to move around to dodge tank fire mutas don’t really need to move at all, other thank to dodge mmm fire which the broodlords would absorb anyway. I don’t know if the same can be said for protoss, but I honestly believe that a zerg who gets broodlords with nothing else is just setting a bad example. 3 broodlords + 15 hydras can really mop the floor in any battle, especially with a range of 9 on the broodlord (I’ve lost with 3 tanks, 2 thors, and a decent marine maurauder army against that exact combination of units) Lastly please realize that broodlords are not all that difficult to get. No one invests 1000/1000 into broodlords unless they’re just dicking around. The broodlord situation usually comes around like this: lair → muta → hydra → 2 or 3 corruptors (which essentially giving up 3 mutas which after the hydra transition isn’t really that big of a deal (375/300?) that’s maybe like 5 hydras? Apologies for not getting the exact right numbers) and then once they hit hive they just get upgrades and all of a sudden why not get that → greater spire and then it’s only a stone’s throw away from getting 3 broodlords. My argument comes down to this: it may not look like it, but broodlords are way too cost effective. Adding 3 units to your game should not turn the tide of the battle like broodlords do. 3 defilers can swarm or plague, 3 templar can storm, 3 lurkers can kill 4 hotkeys of units, but that’s all contingent on proper micro and positioning. With broodlords, as long as they hover over protective units they can wreak havoc. Are they completely broken? No. Do they need retooling? Yes. Are you kidding? Vikings are used already in TvZ, it's not like you have to go out of your way to get them. Vikings are incredibly easy to get, and you surmising that Broodlords are "easy to get" is rather laughable, especially when you say that mutaling isn't a great combo leaving there little reason for Zerg to get a spire (especially after thors are out) if not for the particular reason of broodlords. If you're talking about a "brood/hydra" army then you're effectively playing a really slow army, why not try using mobility to YOUR advantage for once? I don't understand why you can't use a few ravens to hunter seeker the hydras and move in with vikings as the hydras are running, or something of that sort. I'm not saying Broodlords might not need a revamp, but I think your points are absolutely awful. | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
On April 15 2010 16:23 Ecrilon wrote: Notice your army engagements points. At 9 range, Brood Lords stay in the back and fire broodlings at the front line of enemy units. You can actually get additional range out of your broodlords if you micro their attacks on fellow broodlings. start the chain by attacking a unit (like a ling), and send all but 1 broodlings to attack, and keep the chain going by attacking 1 broodling. takes a fair bit of micro to keep up, and it does lower their potential dps (as the further they are from their target, the less attacks they'll get off). Not really practical, just saying that the 9 range isn't a limiting factor. | ||
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Pekkz
Norway1505 Posts
There is no easy fix to this problem, and I would rather have them rework this SILLY unit. | ||
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Butigroove
Seychelles2061 Posts
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