So one thing you notice when playing against a Z is - you DIE if he gets Broodlords and you aren't massively ahead and/or fully prepared with a fleet of for example Vikings or Ravens.
I wondered why they are so ridiculously good. The answer is - their utility, their survivability and their damage.
Damage: They do 25 damage per attack. With every attack, they additionally spawn a Broodling. The Broodling does 10 attacks of 4 damage. And on top of that, they can store 2 attacks, making them do double damage on the first strike.
Yes, you read that right. One Broodlord has a damage potential of 2*25 + 20*4 damage (=50+80=130 damage) before armor and upgrade calculation with his first, and 65 with every consecutive attack. Without upgrades. Air upgrades apply to the initial 25 damage, ground upgrades apply to the Broodlings, making them almost as good as Zerglings.
A Guardian in SC1 does 20 damage per attack.
Utility: They have 9 range. The Broodlings soak up damage and punish Siege Tank use without any downsides for the Z - Broodlings have 30 hp, Zerglings 35. The Broodlings have the advanced unit AI that allows them to surround enemies effectively. You cannot advance in the direction of the Broodlords reliably anymore after one or two waves of Broodlings are on the ground since they block all movement.
Additionally, Broodlords morph from Corruptors, the Zergs AA, giving you a easy way to defend the Broodlords from any air attacks by simply overproducing Corruptors and not morphing them. Not to mention it goes well with any Mass-Muta build that gets Spire and air upgrades anyway or Mass-Hydra builds that provide anti-air defense.
Survivability: They have 275 hp. In comparison, a Guardian in SC1 has 150 hp. And due to the Broodling-block you can easily micro them back and forth out of range of any ground units, while utilizing the 2-attack burst. And Queens can heal them ..
Yes, Broodlords are the highest Zerg tech. No, that does not mean they should be a end-all unit, this isn't C&C. Broodlords are simply too good in all of the three sections described above. You cannot have a unit that spawns a 30 hp buffer every second for you army, deals 65 damage on top of it, and dies only after massive amounts of focused fire. And they do not even have diminishing returns, on the contrary, the more you have, the better, as Broodlings overrun any ground army or base in seconds.
You can get Broodlords in any situation, even if you go the Ultralisk route, as they don't need any air- or ability upgrades to be useful. A T or P on the other hand has to get out of his way and make air units to counter a few Broodlords, significantly weakening their ground force against the already present Ultralings.
Be it their 25 initial damage, collision detection of the Broodlings, the 275 hp, being able to store 2 attacks or the basic Broodling stats and the way upgrades are handled or the Broodling spawning itself - I feel something has to be changed.
These points sound valid, but the thing is, I just don't find zergs ever get to the point where they can afford broodlords unless they're already going to win.
to all the people going "Oh if they get broodlords you're doing something wrong" you're basically saying that you want the game to end before it gets to late game. how is that balanced? the game should be balanced regardless of how long it goes on. there shouldn't be a "beat all" strategy like broodlord/corruptor/ling as there is now.
Explain the point of all these Guardian comparisons?
Yes they're more powerful than Guardians. They're also significantly more expensive than Guardians ever were (300/250, as opposed to 150/200). Not to mention that Guardians were fairly underwhelming in Brood War to begin with.
On March 10 2010 11:38 ItsBigfoot wrote: especially since broodlords only cost 150/150 if you got and saved mid game corrupters
Cuz you know, people just blow away minerals and gas in the midgame on corruptors for the hell of it. Not like they need it for anything else.
If your opponent can get away with making Corruptors that will have no immediate use, and you can't punish him for spending his larvae and resources on things that won't benefit him immediately, then he already has an advantage. Your opponent shouldn't get away with making Corruptors for the hell of it. You should be forcing him to spend those larvae on Hydras/Mutas/whatever else.
Yeah no, saying "don't let them get to that point" is not a valid argument. That'd be equal to "Z gets win by default at 45 minutes". Getting Hive and upgrading your Spire REALLY isn't that hard.
Even 4-5 Broodlords are horribly strong and they don't cost more than you have income in the time you produce them. Telling someone to not let them get "lots" of BLs is as silly as telling someone to not let Z in SC1 (or SC2) get lots of Ultras.
i love these imba threads. "because sc2 is new, it has to be broken right now."
they do cost quite a bit as mentioned before a few times. IMO they are worth what they cost. Also, they're quite snipe-able seeing that they're not incredibly durable.
If engaging in an army, a colossii or two should more than easily erase the broodlings. Colossii of which do 2x20+ dmg?
On March 10 2010 11:39 Kiante wrote: to all the people going "Oh if they get broodlords you're doing something wrong" you're basically saying that you want the game to end before it gets to late game. how is that balanced? the game should be balanced regardless of how long it goes on. there shouldn't be a "beat all" strategy like broodlord/corruptor/ling as there is now.
you can easily lose 6 broodlord in open area to 12 stalkers with blinks
if you really let them have like 10+ broodlord, without a lot of counter units....
On March 10 2010 11:33 agorist wrote: If you're letting zerg get lots of broodlords you're probably doing something wrong.
there should not be a "late game I win now" unit
especially since broodlords only cost 150/150 if you got and saved mid game corrupters
This, Broodlords are extremely powerful and keep in mind this is a beta right NOW the only way to get them is if you're already winning but Blizzard willb e looking to fix this or the unit will never get used. And if they fix this without fixing the problems in the OP then there will be serious problems.
There's already numerous threads discussing this. Do we really need one more?
I don't see Broodlord being an imbalanced unit. I rarely make it that far into the game even. Also the fact also is that I think it's mainly people being under-prepared for the Broodlords when they arrive, and thus get decimated. (People don't scout enough.) It's like in imo SC1. If you didn't scout the Guardians, chances are, your army is gonna die, or your base is gonna take insane damage, which can both be game enders. But on the other hand, if you have the neccessary units to take care of them, like Wraiths or Science Vessels, they are no problemo.
Broodlords are insanely tech heavy and insanely expensive and take a long time to make. I posted this in another thread where I think ZvT works in a similiar way as it did in BW. Zerg tries to get 3 gas and tries to hold back Terrans pushes and attacks, untill he reaches Broodlords (which would be defilers) and starts being offensive instead.
Most Terrans just sit in their base. Usually they do one 1 push that can be relatively easily deflected, and then they just wonder and sit there. Usually they try massing for another push or they expand. After that it usually takes ages before they move out again, and it gives me free room to go for those Broodlords.
The point of the Guardian comparison is that they are the SC1 counterpart in tech and producion. If you notice, Guardians don't spawn a 25 mineral Zergling every second. The actual worth of BLs is way more than 300 minerals. It's 300+25 every shot. And they are almost equal in gas cost, which is way more important.
Broodlords are insanely powerful. Way more powerful than BC's, especially when you all ready are getting corruptors. Corruptor + BL is nigh impossible to take out. Corruptors are the best AA unit in the game, and BL's are the best ground attack unit in the game. Something has to give, either Corruptor AA damage, or BL ground damage. Once the game gets to 30 minutes, and you are both on 4-5 bases, it's no problem for the Zerg to make this. Vikings aren't exactly that cheap either, especially when they get raped by Corruptors. There's not even a point to making Thor's as the BL's demolish them, and Thor's aren't exactly cheap, nor do they build quickly.
That combination just feels a bit too powerful every time I've faced it with equal footing + micro.
Zerg late-game should never go ground. Simply mass Corruptor + BL. It's far more powerful than Ultraling or Muta/Ultra.
On March 10 2010 11:48 PerksPlus wrote: Pretty sure if they have 6 brood lords you can have 6 battle cruisers, don't really see the problem.
not true at all. battlecruisers require a significant alteration in your build. broodlords are a natural progression for late game zergs.
This doesn't make much sense. You're saying going out of your way to make top tier zerg tech and upgrading a spire into greater spire to make brood lords is different from making a fusion core and tech lab on a starport? Yes they are different races, but they still require NEW buildings in order to achieve.
You have to go out of your way to make broodlords... chances are if you are going to make broodlords you dont need the corruptors because you (the zerg) has more anti-air (invested more resources than the opponent), or already have air superiority with mutalisks.
On March 10 2010 11:48 PerksPlus wrote: Pretty sure if they have 6 brood lords you can have 6 battle cruisers, don't really see the problem.
not true at all. battlecruisers require a significant alteration in your build. broodlords are a natural progression for late game zergs.
This doesn't make much sense. You're saying going out of your way to make top tier zerg tech and upgrading a spire into greater spire to make brood lords is different from making a fusion core and tech lab on a starport? Yes they are different races, but they still require NEW buildings in order to achieve.
You have to go out of your way to make broodlords... chances are if you are going to make broodlords you dont need the corruptors because you (the zerg) has more anti-air (invested more resources than the opponent), or already have air superiority with mutalisks.
This is just retarded. You need corruptors because people will try and mass AA to take out BL, and Corruptors rape ALL air. Zerg's who go all air end-game are freaking retardedly hard to beat as Terran.
Corruptors destroy BC. Don't even make BC late game against Zerg....Your best bet is Marauder/Marine/Viking/Raven/Ghost.
So one thing you notice when playing against a P is - you DIE if he gets Carriers and you aren't massively ahead and/or fully prepared with a fleet of for example Vikings or Ravens.
I wondered why they are so ridiculously good. The answer is - their utility, their survivability and their damage.
Damage: With every attack, they send out EIGHT Interceptors. The Interceptor does indefinite attacks of 5 damage, and they attack twice with each shot. And on top of that, they attack automatically when deployed for the first time, making them do double damage on the first strike.
Yes, you read that right. One Carrier has a damage potential of 5*2*8*2 damage (=80+80=160 damage) before armor and upgrade calculation with his first, and 80 with every consecutive attack. Without upgrades. Air upgrades apply to the initial 5 damage, making them deal 20% more damage with each upgrade. Compare that to Broodlords who only get a 12% damage boost on their attacks from air upgrades.
An Interceptor in SC1 does 6 damage per attack. Once. And they Carriers costed more in SC1 because don't warp in with 4 Interceptors automatically built. Not to mention the new auto-build feature so they never run out of Interceptors.
Utility: They have 8 range, and Interceptors have 3 range, (that's total 11 range!) AND they can fly away once they start attacking. The Interceptors soak up damage and punish Missile Turret use without any downsides for the P - Interceptors have 80 hp, Broodlings 30. The Interceptors have the advanced unit AI that allows them to always attack enemies effectively. You cannot advance on the Carriers reliably anymore because they can deploy Interceptors and fly away while still shooting, much faster than you could before. This is because of the new upgrade that they have that allows them to basically instantly unload their Interceptors.
Additionally, Carriers can dual function as AA, giving you a easy way to defend the Carriers from any AA units by simply focusing them. Not to mention it goes well with any Mothership build that gets Fleet Beacon anyway or Gateway units that provide anti-air defense.
Survivability: They have 450 hp. And due to the Normal movespeed and the fact that you don't need to stop to attack, you can easily micro them back and forth out of range of any ground units, while utilizing the interceptor upgrade attack-burst. And they heal 150 of their hp quickly over time...
Yes, Carriers are almost the highest Protoss tech. No, that does not mean they should be a end-all unit, this isn't C&C. Carriers are simply too good in all of the three sections described above. You cannot have a unit that spawns a 80 hp buffer every quarter-second for your army, deals 80 damage on top of it, and dies only after massive amounts of focused fire. And they do not even have diminishing returns, on the contrary, the more you have, the better, as Interceptors overrun any ground army or air army or base in seconds.
You can get Carriers in any situation, even if you go the Gateway unit route, as they don't need any air- or ability upgrades to be useful. A T or Z on the other hand has to get out of his way and make air units to counter a few Carriers, significantly weakening their ground force against the already present zealot/stalker.
Be it their 80 initial damage, anti-air component of Interceptors, the 450 hp, being able to attack when deploying the Interceptors, or the basic Interceptors stats and the way upgrades are handled or the Interceptor spawning itself - I feel something has to be changed.
In broodwar, guardians were extremely powerful when combined with good use of cliffs and whatnot, but even in the best scenario, several guardians with some scourge support on a cliff, a few irradiates and you could back off and wait until they died, or atleast until enough died that you could engage straight-on or even ignore and run past them. There's no such spell that does that. The raven missile certainly is no substitute. The broodlords won't stack as much as guardians did, and it takes three to just kill a single one, and you're not going to be able to afford in most scenarios that many ravens anyway. Even this wouldn't be too bad if broodlords were something z made out of desperation, a last resort sort of thing, but no, zerg is usually in the lead at this point, with innate map control, with terrans forced to react while scouting being generally difficult making reacting that much more perilous. Basically, broodlords are just a coup de grace for a winning zerg, and for a losing zerg provide a very legitimate chance to comeback unless they're very fargone and/or terran has the overwhelming air advantage (which is plausible).
For the carrier post above me, I personally have very little experience with carriers, so it could be that they're imbalanced too, though I'm fairly sure you're being sarcastic. If you think they are, try making a new thread about it. If you're being sarcastic, you're not being helpful. Broodlord complainers aren't just cultists who want to have something to complain about, this is a legitimate complaint that broodlords truely seem to exasperate an already very fine line in balance in tvz. edit: I agree with the post above me in response to the carrier post.
You cant tech switch with terran nearly as easily with zerg. Getting a greater spire is alot easier than getting a tech lab + science facility jazz. What are you going to do, make bcs off one starport? Zergs advantage is that they can tech switch very easily because each hatch + queen can produce any single zerg unit. In addition, mutas turn into broodlords, if you are going brood lords, you most likely went muta first which is strong in itself since mutas are not easily countered atm. The transition is to smooth and easy. THATS why Broodlords are overpowered
A fully loaded carrier in Starcraft 1 is 550/250. Eight fully loaded carriers are tough, but will get cleaned out by two and a half control groups of upgraded goliaths. What we seem to be looking at, with the Broodlord, is the SC1 equivalent of a carrier which is unstoppable by the Goliath (terran ground-based AA does not work,) shreds tank lines, but is hard-countered by Wraiths, Valkyries, and Battlecruisers.
And that would be insanely overpowered because SC1 terran air force is pretty terrible otherwise in TvP.
Terrans have an easy and fast counter to Broodlords and Corrupters in Vikings.
Vikings have the same range as Broodlords, and outrange Corrupters by a great deal. They also deal bonus damage to both the Corrupter and the Broodlord because they're both armored. Corrupters do not deal bonus damage back, since Vikings aren't Massive units.
Terrans will already have a Starport or two up anyway, either for Medivac if they go Bio, or Ravens for late-game detection. When they scout the Greater Spire being morphed, they simply have to lift their Starport to one of the reactors they already have, and start pumping out large amounts of Vikings.
After the Vikings deal with the Zerg air, they can even go to the ground and help push with the ground forces.
Protoss have a bit more trouble defending against lategame Broodlords, because their best counter units cost more than the Viking, don't deal as much damage, and have shorter range.
The Pheonix will die to a Corrupter 1v1. They also cost as much as a Corrupter, and build slower. They're not really suitable for countering a Corrupter/Broodlord army, but they can work in a pinch if you have more Pheonixes than they do Corrupters.
The Void Ray does bonus damage to armored units, and it is not massive, so it will kill Corrupters 1v1. The downside is that the Void Ray is relatively slow, allowing accompanying Hydras to push up and slaughter them if there aren't enough Zealot meatshields. They also cost 50 min and 50 gas more than the Corrupter, and build much slower.
You haven't even proved they're imba though. All the points you make are mostly that it has considerable strengths, and then you claim that it's imbalanced. That's not proving anything.
They are strong though, I just don't see how your points substantiate the position that they're imbalanced with relationship to the entire game, not just listing stats.
I can't speak from the perspective of a P player, but as a T player, if I'm up against Broodlords, I was already in a losing position before they were even produced. Terran has a lot of tools to keep pressure on Zerg throughout the game (I've had a lot of success with air-oriented builds, hoping to make a formal post about it in the future).
I also agree that it's far, far too early to be calling something overpowered. Meta-games don't evolve overnight and counters can take a long time to be found.
Learn to micro, it's called sniping. oh they have a bunch of corrupters that don't even attack ground. I should just tell my units to engage the corrupters????? just take your aa units and freakin click attack on the broodlord. if you kille all teh broodlords e.g. kill 6 broodlords and lose 6 vikings to corrupters YOU ALREADY got the resource advantage. and then what can corrupters do to your ground army?
The very fact that zerg has used all their resource in air means that they don't have a ground army. Use their weaknesses, don't attack their strengths. listen to day 9. ignore things you cannot stop. if broodlords are attacking you don't suicide your whole ground army into it. don't panic. BLA BLA BLA basically it's just things pro's (people who use their heads when playing a game) would yell at a noob with.
Stop this nonsense. how many broodlord imba thread do we need?
i am seeing way too many of these threads, recycling the arguments in the same few original posts OVER and OVER and OVER again. Broodlords arent end-all units, get a mother ship and vortex them or something. Figure something out so Z is forced to make them travel in open space and have them sniped. The post about how they get killed by stalkers with blink was excellent. Sitting here and complaining without having even given thought to a possible way to counter them is doing you all no good. Threads should not be generated with the purpose of saying "OMG CERTAIN UNIT IMBA CUZ I LOST TO IT!!!1!! BLIZZARD FIX IT ST4RCRAFT2 BROKEN ZOMG T_T" Instead they should be along the lines of "Hey anybody find a good way to counter Z that goes brood lords? Having a bit of trouble." The all-caps part was to exaggerate how pathetic you lot seem to P's and T's that are doing fine against Z players. If there is enough constructive discussion and there really seems no way to stop broodlords, then maybe blizzard will make a patch.
Brood lords are no stronger than a mothership with a few carriers under it of equal value. They are significantly weaker in fact.
Browder just said in his interview protoss and zerg are winning at about the same percentage on the ladder. If you weaken brood lords, you're going to have to strengthen other units to keep it even. I don't want brood lords to be useless like guardians use to be.
For reference, here's a snippet from the guidelines for the SC1 Strategy section, which everybody seems to think they can ignore when posting threads regarding SC2 Strategy.
QUESTIONS (How do I beat this?) RULES
It’s important to understand the difference. “Why did I lose” refers to a specific game where you can’t find what you did wrong. “How do I beat this” refers to a particular strategy, idea, or even map that you are having trouble with.
Original Post (1) Thread Title I’d ask that rather than using the [H], you use a [Q]. So [H] is for specific help, [Q] is for general situational questions.
(2) Analysis (IMPORTANT) Your thread should ask specific questions. It is better to ask many specific questions, than one vague one. An example of an unacceptable question is: “How do I beat Templar with Zerg?” Ask yourself if someone could answer your question in one sentence. If so, it’s a good question.
After this, give your own analysis of how you think the question should be answered. It might be wrong, but try your best. It doesn’t have to be long, a sentence or two should be enough to get your thoughts down. Even stating what you thought would work, and why it didn’t, is enough to avoid me closing your thread.
No idea why admins are not cracking down on these useless broodlord-imba-cuz-im-too-lazy-to-actually-think threads
On March 10 2010 12:43 Avidkeystamper wrote: You haven't even proved they're imba though. All the points you make are mostly that it has considerable strengths, and then you claim that it's imbalanced. That's not proving anything.
Just compare it to every single other unit? What's better, Infestor spawning Terrans with a Spell or Broodlord attacking? What's better, Ultra damage that is melee and ground based or BL damage that is ranged and air based? BLs spawning their own units that can be microed and tank/block for them or Carriers spawning Interceptors that can be ignored as they have no collision detection and return to the Carrier as soon as you move it? Being able to instantly spawn 5++ Corruptors at the same time and morphing them into BLs without building anything besides Greater Spire (which you can hide with Overlord creep drop on remote locations), or having to build 2+ Starports, Tech Labs, Fusion Core and then BCs with ultra-long construction time one at a time?
Besides that. Alone the fact that BLs do 130 burst damage (ONE OF THEM, when you usually face 4+) should be concerning to you. Alone the fact that BLs spawn units that block any advancement in their direction should be concerning to you. Try attacking a building with a BL. The Broodlings spawn intelligently where there is space right next to the structure. They do not run around it, but spawn where they can attack it directly. That's how good the AI is.
I'm not saying any ONE point of the BLs strengths is "imba", but that when you combine everything you get a unit that is way above all other unit's performances.
On March 10 2010 12:43 Avidkeystamper wrote: You haven't even proved they're imba though. All the points you make are mostly that it has considerable strengths, and then you claim that it's imbalanced. That's not proving anything.
Just compare it to every single other unit? What's better, Infestor spawning Terrans with a Spell or Broodlord attacking?
You know, Infestors have more than one spell. Ironically enough, one of them might actually be useful against Broodlords.
On March 10 2010 13:17 junemermaid wrote: Their base damage doesn't get applied twice when they have two broodlings on their wings. It just launches two broodlings and deals the 25 damage.
So why does a Drone get oneshot by a BL, without the Broodlings attacking? It gets applied twice.
On March 10 2010 12:43 Avidkeystamper wrote: You haven't even proved they're imba though. All the points you make are mostly that it has considerable strengths, and then you claim that it's imbalanced. That's not proving anything.
Just compare it to every single other unit? What's better, Infestor spawning Terrans with a Spell or Broodlord attacking? What's better, Ultra damage that is melee and ground based or BL damage that is ranged and air based? BLs spawning their own units that can be microed and tank/block for them or Carriers spawning Interceptors that can be ignored as they have no collision detection and return to the Carrier as soon as you move it? Being able to instantly spawn 5++ Corruptors at the same time and morphing them into BLs without building anything besides Greater Spire (which you can hide with Overlord creep drop on remote locations), or having to build 2+ Starports, Tech Labs, Fusion Core and then BCs with ultra-long construction time one at a time?
Besides that. Alone the fact that BLs do 130 burst damage (ONE OF THEM, when you usually face 4+) should be concerning to you. Alone the fact that BLs spawn units that block any advancement in their direction should be concerning to you. Try attacking a building with a BL. The Broodlings spawn intelligently where there is space right next to the structure. They do not run around it, but spawn where they can attack it directly. That's how good the AI is.
I'm not saying any ONE point of the BLs strengths is "imba", but that when you combine everything you get a unit that is way above all other unit's performances.
care to explain? the equation in the OP makes no sense. math was never my strong point so plz break it down for me step by step. Why is it 4*20? I guess they do 20 attacks now instead of 10? and 10 attacks over a period of 10 seconds is burst now? Do carriers do a 5*2*8*10=800 burst damage each now?
On March 10 2010 12:43 Avidkeystamper wrote: You haven't even proved they're imba though. All the points you make are mostly that it has considerable strengths, and then you claim that it's imbalanced. That's not proving anything.
Just compare it to every single other unit? What's better, Infestor spawning Terrans with a Spell or Broodlord attacking? What's better, Ultra damage that is melee and ground based or BL damage that is ranged and air based? BLs spawning their own units that can be microed and tank/block for them or Carriers spawning Interceptors that can be ignored as they have no collision detection and return to the Carrier as soon as you move it? Being able to instantly spawn 5++ Corruptors at the same time and morphing them into BLs without building anything besides Greater Spire (which you can hide with Overlord creep drop on remote locations), or having to build 2+ Starports, Tech Labs, Fusion Core and then BCs with ultra-long construction time one at a time?
Besides that. Alone the fact that BLs do 130 burst damage (ONE OF THEM, when you usually face 4+) should be concerning to you. Alone the fact that BLs spawn units that block any advancement in their direction should be concerning to you. Try attacking a building with a BL. The Broodlings spawn intelligently where there is space right next to the structure. They do not run around it, but spawn where they can attack it directly. That's how good the AI is.
I'm not saying any ONE point of the BLs strengths is "imba", but that when you combine everything you get a unit that is way above all other unit's performances.
Hm. I see a lot of "Wow, BL can do AAAALLL of this!" I can't exactly remember what logical fallacy that is, but I'm sure it is one. The thing is, you won't ever realistically get to the point where you're facing 4+ Brood Lords while at the same time, you have absolutely nothing to beat it. If you reach that point, it's YOUR fault for not teching up as the opponent did. 4 Carriers will beat 4 Brood Lords. Heck, 1 Carrier will beat a Brood Lord. By the time the Zerg has 4 Brood Lords and some Corruptors, you will have a Mothership and a Carrier. GGkthxbai?
Also, if you can't beat the Zerg while they are grabbing 5+ Corruptors and morphing to Brood Lords, it's Zerg itself that is imba, not Brood Lords. And even then, it's probably YOUR fault for no doing anything about it.
Note that this is different from "Don't let them get to it or you'll lose"; it's a "Hey, WTF were you doing while they were grabbing 39485789 tier 3 units?" If you skipped tech for an early mass, then you obviously failed at your harass attempts; if you went tech and have not a single Carrier, Battlecruiser, or even a Viking, you did something wrong.
Also, you CANNOT "instantly" morph in multiple brood lords. In fact, you must first morph a Corruptor, THEN into a Brood Lord. You say "At the same time," but a Reactor does exactly that, and the units it works for are actually affordable.
What I'm saying is that you can make ANYTHING overpowered when you create ridiculous situations.
Some examples of what you're doing:
**If you get 10 Siege Tanks and 10 Vikings outside the opponent's base, they can't do anything about it. 10 Tanks will instantly kill all ground units before being hit, and Vikings slaughter all air. It's so much more powerful than Brood Lord. That needs Lair, THEN a Spire, THEN a Greater Spire, THEN Corruptors, THEN Brood Lords. Siege Tanks and Vikings only require a tech lab you should already have, a reactor you should already have, a Factory you have already, and a starport you should already have.
**Banshee and Viking is overpowered. If you get 10 Banshees and 10 Vikings, you'll kill everything. It only requires a reactor you should have, and a tech lab you should have, along with a starport. You don't even need another one, just switch the tech. It's so much easier than <Brood Lord tech tree>.
**Vikings are OP. You can build 2 of them at a time from a single Starport, they are fairly cheap, and they can beat ground AND air. Nothing the enemy has can beat Vikings by the time you have them out. Chances are, they won't have Corruptors because they take SO LONG TO BUILD.
On March 10 2010 12:43 Avidkeystamper wrote: You haven't even proved they're imba though. All the points you make are mostly that it has considerable strengths, and then you claim that it's imbalanced. That's not proving anything.
Just compare it to every single other unit? What's better, Infestor spawning Terrans with a Spell or Broodlord attacking? What's better, Ultra damage that is melee and ground based or BL damage that is ranged and air based? BLs spawning their own units that can be microed and tank/block for them or Carriers spawning Interceptors that can be ignored as they have no collision detection and return to the Carrier as soon as you move it? Being able to instantly spawn 5++ Corruptors at the same time and morphing them into BLs without building anything besides Greater Spire (which you can hide with Overlord creep drop on remote locations), or having to build 2+ Starports, Tech Labs, Fusion Core and then BCs with ultra-long construction time one at a time?
Besides that. Alone the fact that BLs do 130 burst damage (ONE OF THEM, when you usually face 4+) should be concerning to you. Alone the fact that BLs spawn units that block any advancement in their direction should be concerning to you. Try attacking a building with a BL. The Broodlings spawn intelligently where there is space right next to the structure. They do not run around it, but spawn where they can attack it directly. That's how good the AI is.
I'm not saying any ONE point of the BLs strengths is "imba", but that when you combine everything you get a unit that is way above all other unit's performances.
care to explain? the equation in the OP makes no sense. math was never my strong point so plz break it down for me step by step. Why is it 4*20? I guess they do 20 attacks now instead of 10? and 10 attacks over a period of 10 seconds is burst now? Do carriers do a 5*2*8*10=800 burst damage each now?
He is including the damage the broodlings deal. The broodlord itself does double damage on the first strike for 50, then the other 80 damage is done by the two broodlings spawned who can each hit 10 times for 4 damage.
On March 10 2010 12:43 Avidkeystamper wrote: You haven't even proved they're imba though. All the points you make are mostly that it has considerable strengths, and then you claim that it's imbalanced. That's not proving anything.
Just compare it to every single other unit? What's better, Infestor spawning Terrans with a Spell or Broodlord attacking? What's better, Ultra damage that is melee and ground based or BL damage that is ranged and air based? BLs spawning their own units that can be microed and tank/block for them or Carriers spawning Interceptors that can be ignored as they have no collision detection and return to the Carrier as soon as you move it? Being able to instantly spawn 5++ Corruptors at the same time and morphing them into BLs without building anything besides Greater Spire (which you can hide with Overlord creep drop on remote locations), or having to build 2+ Starports, Tech Labs, Fusion Core and then BCs with ultra-long construction time one at a time?
Besides that. Alone the fact that BLs do 130 burst damage (ONE OF THEM, when you usually face 4+) should be concerning to you. Alone the fact that BLs spawn units that block any advancement in their direction should be concerning to you. Try attacking a building with a BL. The Broodlings spawn intelligently where there is space right next to the structure. They do not run around it, but spawn where they can attack it directly. That's how good the AI is.
I'm not saying any ONE point of the BLs strengths is "imba", but that when you combine everything you get a unit that is way above all other unit's performances.
care to explain? the equation in the OP makes no sense.
BL does 25 damage with his attack. Then a Broodling is spawned that does 10 attacks for 4 damage. BL has his "projectiles" floating next to him, his fire rate is the rate at which he produces the Broodlings. He can store 2 Broodlings. If he has stored 2, he also shoots those two when attacking. So 25 initial projectile damage, 10*4 Broodling damage, and everything times 2. 25+25+40+40 = 50+80 = 130.
On March 10 2010 13:16 rotinegg wrote: No idea why admins are not cracking down on these useless broodlord-imba-cuz-im-too-lazy-to-actually-think threads
Are you forgetting that this is a beta and it's very well possible that certain units or certain strategies are imba?
On March 10 2010 13:16 rotinegg wrote: No idea why admins are not cracking down on these useless broodlord-imba-cuz-im-too-lazy-to-actually-think threads
Are you forgetting that this is a beta and it's very well possible that certain units or certain strategies are imba?
Did you attempt to have an intelligent discussion about possible counters to broodlords before resorting to endless whining about how their stats are imba? Just because there are five useless threads about the imba-ness of broodlords recycling the same arguments does not warrant everybody to jump in and blindly support the argument.
On March 10 2010 12:43 Avidkeystamper wrote: You haven't even proved they're imba though. All the points you make are mostly that it has considerable strengths, and then you claim that it's imbalanced. That's not proving anything.
Just compare it to every single other unit? What's better, Infestor spawning Terrans with a Spell or Broodlord attacking? What's better, Ultra damage that is melee and ground based or BL damage that is ranged and air based? BLs spawning their own units that can be microed and tank/block for them or Carriers spawning Interceptors that can be ignored as they have no collision detection and return to the Carrier as soon as you move it? Being able to instantly spawn 5++ Corruptors at the same time and morphing them into BLs without building anything besides Greater Spire (which you can hide with Overlord creep drop on remote locations), or having to build 2+ Starports, Tech Labs, Fusion Core and then BCs with ultra-long construction time one at a time?
Besides that. Alone the fact that BLs do 130 burst damage (ONE OF THEM, when you usually face 4+) should be concerning to you. Alone the fact that BLs spawn units that block any advancement in their direction should be concerning to you. Try attacking a building with a BL. The Broodlings spawn intelligently where there is space right next to the structure. They do not run around it, but spawn where they can attack it directly. That's how good the AI is.
I'm not saying any ONE point of the BLs strengths is "imba", but that when you combine everything you get a unit that is way above all other unit's performances.
care to explain? the equation in the OP makes no sense.
BL does 25 damage with his attack. Then a Broodling is spawned that does 10 attacks for 4 damage. BL has his "projectiles" floating next to him, his fire rate is the rate at which he produces the Broodlings. He can store 2 Broodlings. If he has stored 2, he also shoots those two when attacking. So 25 initial projectile damage, 10*4 Broodling damage, and everything times 2. 25+25+40+40 = 50+80 = 130.
so yea, in essence you are saying 10 attacks over 10 seconds is BURST damage lmao so my arguments stands that carriers do 800 burst damage, which is a whopping 615% of the scientifically-proven-to-be-imba-damage of broodlords! Furthermore, carriers dont have a bonus for first hits, so its even more imba when you count the normal damage of BL's, which is 4*10+25=65! So carriers have a burst damage equal to 1230% of BL's ordinary burst damage! IMBA CARRIERS! PATCH BLIZZARD! OMG
On March 10 2010 11:43 Elaeli wrote: Yeah no, saying "don't let them get to that point" is not a valid argument. That'd be equal to "Z gets win by default at 45 minutes". Getting Hive and upgrading your Spire REALLY isn't that hard.
On March 10 2010 13:16 rotinegg wrote: No idea why admins are not cracking down on these useless broodlord-imba-cuz-im-too-lazy-to-actually-think threads
Are you forgetting that this is a beta and it's very well possible that certain units or certain strategies are imba?
Did you attempt to have an intelligent discussion about possible counters to broodlords before resorting to endless whining about how their stats are imba? Just because there are five useless threads about the imba-ness of broodlords recycling the same arguments does not warrant everybody to jump in and blindly support the argument.
I'm not saying that strategy discussion isn't warranted or even that I agree that brood lords are too strong and need to be nerfed. What I am saying is that this is a beta and part of a beta is looking to find balance, so you quoting from a strategy guide from sc1 which has been released for over 10 years has no relevance here.
On March 10 2010 13:16 rotinegg wrote: No idea why admins are not cracking down on these useless broodlord-imba-cuz-im-too-lazy-to-actually-think threads
Are you forgetting that this is a beta and it's very well possible that certain units or certain strategies are imba?
Did you attempt to have an intelligent discussion about possible counters to broodlords before resorting to endless whining about how their stats are imba? Just because there are five useless threads about the imba-ness of broodlords recycling the same arguments does not warrant everybody to jump in and blindly support the argument.
On March 10 2010 12:43 Avidkeystamper wrote: You haven't even proved they're imba though. All the points you make are mostly that it has considerable strengths, and then you claim that it's imbalanced. That's not proving anything.
Just compare it to every single other unit? What's better, Infestor spawning Terrans with a Spell or Broodlord attacking? What's better, Ultra damage that is melee and ground based or BL damage that is ranged and air based? BLs spawning their own units that can be microed and tank/block for them or Carriers spawning Interceptors that can be ignored as they have no collision detection and return to the Carrier as soon as you move it? Being able to instantly spawn 5++ Corruptors at the same time and morphing them into BLs without building anything besides Greater Spire (which you can hide with Overlord creep drop on remote locations), or having to build 2+ Starports, Tech Labs, Fusion Core and then BCs with ultra-long construction time one at a time?
Besides that. Alone the fact that BLs do 130 burst damage (ONE OF THEM, when you usually face 4+) should be concerning to you. Alone the fact that BLs spawn units that block any advancement in their direction should be concerning to you. Try attacking a building with a BL. The Broodlings spawn intelligently where there is space right next to the structure. They do not run around it, but spawn where they can attack it directly. That's how good the AI is.
I'm not saying any ONE point of the BLs strengths is "imba", but that when you combine everything you get a unit that is way above all other unit's performances.
care to explain? the equation in the OP makes no sense.
BL does 25 damage with his attack. Then a Broodling is spawned that does 10 attacks for 4 damage. BL has his "projectiles" floating next to him, his fire rate is the rate at which he produces the Broodlings. He can store 2 Broodlings. If he has stored 2, he also shoots those two when attacking. So 25 initial projectile damage, 10*4 Broodling damage, and everything times 2. 25+25+40+40 = 50+80 = 130.
so yea, in essence you are saying 10 attacks over 10 seconds is BURST damage lmao so my arguments stands that carriers do 800 burst damage, which is a whopping 615% of the scientifically-proven-to-be-imba-damage of broodlords! Furthermore, carriers dont have a bonus for first hits, so its even more imba when you count the normal damage of BL's, which is 4*10+25=65! So carriers have a burst damage equal to 1230% of BL's ordinary burst damage! IMBA CARRIERS! PATCH BLIZZARD! OMG
Don't be silly. The Broodlords can move away after the shot or die or change targets or drink a cola. The Carriers have to stand completely still with the target locked. At least think your arguments through before making stuff up, and that's not directed just at you but at lots of people in this thread.. And the argument is not about DPS, but about good damage, survivability and most of all utility coming together in one unit.
On March 10 2010 13:16 rotinegg wrote: No idea why admins are not cracking down on these useless broodlord-imba-cuz-im-too-lazy-to-actually-think threads
Are you forgetting that this is a beta and it's very well possible that certain units or certain strategies are imba?
Did you attempt to have an intelligent discussion about possible counters to broodlords before resorting to endless whining about how their stats are imba? Just because there are five useless threads about the imba-ness of broodlords recycling the same arguments does not warrant everybody to jump in and blindly support the argument.
I'm not saying that strategy discussion isn't warranted or even that I agree that brood lords are too strong and need to be nerfed. What I am saying is that this is a beta and part of a beta is looking to find balance, so you quoting from a strategy guide from sc1 which has been released for over 10 years has no relevance here.
It has all the relevance here, this is still a forum of TL, the finest non-Korean Starcraft community, no? So no rules apply when dealing with uncharted territory? It's okay to make a succession of worthless threads? You think TL would have gotten to where it's at without admins carefully extracting useless threads and damning them into oblivion? It's not about SC2 specifically, it's about the attitude you take: when there's a problem, you solve it by TRYING to solve it, not complaining about it and hoping it would solve itself (or whining how Blizzard should release a patch that nerfs Broodlords).
On March 10 2010 13:16 rotinegg wrote: No idea why admins are not cracking down on these useless broodlord-imba-cuz-im-too-lazy-to-actually-think threads
Are you forgetting that this is a beta and it's very well possible that certain units or certain strategies are imba?
Did you attempt to have an intelligent discussion about possible counters to broodlords before resorting to endless whining about how their stats are imba? Just because there are five useless threads about the imba-ness of broodlords recycling the same arguments does not warrant everybody to jump in and blindly support the argument.
On March 10 2010 13:59 Elaeli wrote:
On March 10 2010 13:49 rotinegg wrote:
On March 10 2010 13:37 Elaeli wrote:
On March 10 2010 12:43 Avidkeystamper wrote: You haven't even proved they're imba though. All the points you make are mostly that it has considerable strengths, and then you claim that it's imbalanced. That's not proving anything.
Just compare it to every single other unit? What's better, Infestor spawning Terrans with a Spell or Broodlord attacking? What's better, Ultra damage that is melee and ground based or BL damage that is ranged and air based? BLs spawning their own units that can be microed and tank/block for them or Carriers spawning Interceptors that can be ignored as they have no collision detection and return to the Carrier as soon as you move it? Being able to instantly spawn 5++ Corruptors at the same time and morphing them into BLs without building anything besides Greater Spire (which you can hide with Overlord creep drop on remote locations), or having to build 2+ Starports, Tech Labs, Fusion Core and then BCs with ultra-long construction time one at a time?
Besides that. Alone the fact that BLs do 130 burst damage (ONE OF THEM, when you usually face 4+) should be concerning to you. Alone the fact that BLs spawn units that block any advancement in their direction should be concerning to you. Try attacking a building with a BL. The Broodlings spawn intelligently where there is space right next to the structure. They do not run around it, but spawn where they can attack it directly. That's how good the AI is.
I'm not saying any ONE point of the BLs strengths is "imba", but that when you combine everything you get a unit that is way above all other unit's performances.
care to explain? the equation in the OP makes no sense.
BL does 25 damage with his attack. Then a Broodling is spawned that does 10 attacks for 4 damage. BL has his "projectiles" floating next to him, his fire rate is the rate at which he produces the Broodlings. He can store 2 Broodlings. If he has stored 2, he also shoots those two when attacking. So 25 initial projectile damage, 10*4 Broodling damage, and everything times 2. 25+25+40+40 = 50+80 = 130.
so yea, in essence you are saying 10 attacks over 10 seconds is BURST damage lmao so my arguments stands that carriers do 800 burst damage, which is a whopping 615% of the scientifically-proven-to-be-imba-damage of broodlords! Furthermore, carriers dont have a bonus for first hits, so its even more imba when you count the normal damage of BL's, which is 4*10+25=65! So carriers have a burst damage equal to 1230% of BL's ordinary burst damage! IMBA CARRIERS! PATCH BLIZZARD! OMG
Don't be silly. The Broodlords can move away after the shot or die or change targets or drink a cola. The Carriers have to stand completely still with the target locked. At least think your arguments through before making stuff up, and that's not directed just at you but at lots of people in this thread.. And the argument is not about DPS, but about good damage, survivability and most of all utility coming together in one unit.
Woah so carriers cant move away, but have to hold position in the open when attacking? Learn something new here everyday i guess 0_0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsyQse2b618 Hey look it's a carrier that moves away after launching its intercepters at 7:03! Must be a different game, C&C?
Part of the problem is protoss having no good anti heavy air. The best counter to broodlords right now for toss is void rays but void rays get shredded by hydras too quickly and they don't have the range to shoot broodlords while out of hydra range.
The argument that you should have carriers and motherships when zerg has broodlords is pretty silly as the tech investment for carriers and motherships is way out of the way and will just cause the toss to lose earlier to zerg ground.
Also, I think its pretty ridiculous that a game in beta is considered perfectly balanced. There's going to be adjustments many months from now maybe even a year or 2 from now. The possibility of a unit being imbalanced right now is not so unbelievable.
I do think the broodlord complaints should be contained in one thread though. People should really search before starting an OP.
On March 10 2010 12:27 PiePie wrote: You cant tech switch with terran nearly as easily with zerg. Getting a greater spire is alot easier than getting a tech lab + science facility jazz. What are you going to do, make bcs off one starport? Zergs advantage is that they can tech switch very easily because each hatch + queen can produce any single zerg unit. In addition, mutas turn into broodlords, if you are going brood lords, you most likely went muta first which is strong in itself since mutas are not easily countered atm. The transition is to smooth and easy. THATS why Broodlords are overpowered
What Terran player isn't getting Starport Lab + Fusion Core for Hunter Seeker Missile on Ravens anyway? At that point BC requires zero extra tech from the Terran other than the requisite production buildings.
I can seen Broodlords being a problem in PvZ, but Terran mid-late game is plenty well equipped to handle Broodlords.
On March 10 2010 12:43 Avidkeystamper wrote: You haven't even proved they're imba though. All the points you make are mostly that it has considerable strengths, and then you claim that it's imbalanced. That's not proving anything.
Just compare it to every single other unit? What's better, Infestor spawning Terrans with a Spell or Broodlord attacking? What's better, Ultra damage that is melee and ground based or BL damage that is ranged and air based? BLs spawning their own units that can be microed and tank/block for them or Carriers spawning Interceptors that can be ignored as they have no collision detection and return to the Carrier as soon as you move it? Being able to instantly spawn 5++ Corruptors at the same time and morphing them into BLs without building anything besides Greater Spire (which you can hide with Overlord creep drop on remote locations), or having to build 2+ Starports, Tech Labs, Fusion Core and then BCs with ultra-long construction time one at a time?
Besides that. Alone the fact that BLs do 130 burst damage (ONE OF THEM, when you usually face 4+) should be concerning to you. Alone the fact that BLs spawn units that block any advancement in their direction should be concerning to you. Try attacking a building with a BL. The Broodlings spawn intelligently where there is space right next to the structure. They do not run around it, but spawn where they can attack it directly. That's how good the AI is.
I'm not saying any ONE point of the BLs strengths is "imba", but that when you combine everything you get a unit that is way above all other unit's performances.
Hm. I see a lot of "Wow, BL can do AAAALLL of this!" I can't exactly remember what logical fallacy that is, but I'm sure it is one. The thing is, you won't ever realistically get to the point where you're facing 4+ Brood Lords while at the same time, you have absolutely nothing to beat it. If you reach that point, it's YOUR fault for not teching up as the opponent did. 4 Carriers will beat 4 Brood Lords. Heck, 1 Carrier will beat a Brood Lord. By the time the Zerg has 4 Brood Lords and some Corruptors, you will have a Mothership and a Carrier. GGkthxbai?
Don't be daft. Four Brood Lords is 1200/1000. Three fully loaded carriers in Starcraft 1 are 1650/750. If three fully loaded Carriers in Starcraft 1 could not be stopped by any terran ground units that would indeed be a clusterfuck, and "lol get wraiths and/or battlecruiser" would not be a solution. A single Carrier cannot snipe Broodlords unless it's the only thing that Zerg built in the entire game.
On March 10 2010 13:55 Zeke50100 wrote: Also, if you can't beat the Zerg while they are grabbing 5+ Corruptors and morphing to Brood Lords, it's Zerg itself that is imba, not Brood Lords. And even then, it's probably YOUR fault for no doing anything about it.
Note that this is different from "Don't let them get to it or you'll lose"; it's a "Hey, WTF were you doing while they were grabbing 39485789 tier 3 units?" If you skipped tech for an early mass, then you obviously failed at your harass attempts; if you went tech and have not a single Carrier, Battlecruiser, or even a Viking, you did something wrong.
I think by "39485789" you meant "4." It's okay, I get confused by big numbers too sometimes.
Assuming imbalance with insufficient evidence but operating under the assumption that everything is balanced is also flawed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsyQse2b618 Hey look it's a carrier that moves away after launching its intercepters at 7:03! Must be a different game, C&C?
Yep was gonna say thats bull shit cause I was microing my carriers nonstop and the interceptors didn't return after I started to move them.
On March 10 2010 14:24 rotinegg wrote: Woah so carriers cant move away, but have to hold position in the open when attacking? Learn something new here everyday i guess 0_0
Eh well yeah they can move. But they still have to stay relatively close to the target, if they back off the interceptors retreat, and they have to stand still until all Interceptors are actually launched before moving. Was pretty sure I saw them having to hold position in a Stream, and I don't play P myself so .. yeah shame on me. Doesn't matter tho. Carriers fulfill the role of single target Air DPS, but Broodlords with their ground clutter utility are in a whole different league. Unless you want to count air cluttering with 25 mineral Interceptors utility.
Don't be daft. Four Brood Lords is 1200/1000. Three fully loaded carriers in Starcraft 1 are 1650/750. If three fully loaded Carriers in Starcraft 1 could not be stopped by any terran ground units that would indeed be a clusterfuck, and "lol get wraiths and/or battlecruiser" would not be a solution. A single Carrier cannot snipe Broodlords unless it's the only thing that Zerg built in the entire game.
Likewise, a single Carrier won't be the only thing the Protoss built. Did you see the word Mothership?
And yes, "lol get X" is a solution. Roaches destroy P player 1. P player 1 goes and complains. P player 2 says "Uh...Immortals." End of topic. Welcome to SC2, where SC1 analogies won't always apply, and hard counters exist.
I think by "39485789" you meant "4." It's okay, I get confused by big numbers too sometimes.
Assuming imbalance with insufficient evidence but operating under the assumption that everything is balanced is also flawed.
The point I was making with the numbers is that it doesn't matter what the number is, if it's any number (of brood lords) sufficient enough to destroy everything you throw at it. I'm saying it's your fault if they have any type of unstoppable force, because someone can't "just" tech up to tier 3 and get an unstoppable army if you were doing what you should have been (teching yourself, harassing, etc.)
I'm not saying everything is balanced, nor am I assuming imbalance. If you can point out where I said so, please do.
If you're referring to the part where I say "Zerg is imba," it's a misinterpretation. I'm saying that if a Zerg player manages to hold you off while grabbing the ultimate high-tier army, either the skill difference between you is incredibly different, or Zerg is imba rather than the Brood Lord itself as the topic claims. I don't claim that Zerg is indeed imba, though.
I same had huge problems vs broodlords as protoss ...
Just won my frist game on metalopolis vs zerg who did hydra broodlord ... he was really bad , but i managed to kill him with mass stalker / colouss + void ray ... very gas heavy... he didnt had muta my colosus managed to kill his hydras or most of them and i did flank attack on broodlords with 2 to 4 void rays and i killed them before his corputors managed to kill my void rays ... i belive void ray is best option at the moment ... they are countered by hydra and mutalisk ... with hydra since it is ground you can run away on cliffs and snipe broodlords speed upgrade from fleet beacon reaaally helps ... opens mothership after as well , but i didnt had money for it ... vs muta i dont reallly know what to do to be honest i was fortunate he did stick with corupters broodlord and hydra combo , stalkers + void rays own corputors as well ...
they are really powerfull zerg was bad and i had deacent advantage as well.
On March 10 2010 14:44 EmeraldSparks wrote: Assuming imbalance with insufficient evidence but operating under the assumption that everything is balanced is also flawed.
On the contrary, when something is labeled as imbalanced, people write losses against it off as though they're cheesy wins, and not legitimate. It's when we assume everything is balanced that people actually try hard to find ways to beat it.
Comparing stats is meaningless. So many units in sc2 have more hp and more dmg that sc1, it's just not a valid comparison. The scales are completely different. Imortal does 50 dmg to armored? I mean, seriously, you can't compare the dmg values across the games.
Just wondering if anyone has heard of a timing push.
sc1 tvp protoss double expands if terran doesnt attack before toss's gateway's come up and get a contain or expand themselves they are at a huge disadvantage.
If zerg's are using all there larva on corrupters to get broodlords then they arent making any anit ground forces then that is the time to attack. The zerg will most likely have a disadvantage at that point and u will pick off a lot of stuff and maybe cripple the zerg. It is all about timing and assuming balance is a great thing because people will try very hard to find a counter instead of doing the samething every game and losing to the same strat and claiming IMBA
On March 10 2010 11:39 Kiante wrote: to all the people going "Oh if they get broodlords you're doing something wrong" you're basically saying that you want the game to end before it gets to late game. how is that balanced? the game should be balanced regardless of how long it goes on. there shouldn't be a "beat all" strategy like broodlord/corruptor/ling as there is now.
Broodlords do not beat everything, not even close. You need to have 5+ brood lords to even do decently against a large MMM ball. Ultras are mediocre, hydras do ok with full fungal infestations, but really man... late game Z doesn't have much of a choice other than forcing T to produce vikings. Protoss is definitely more boned, but there are some things they can do.
Feedback is bad news for corruptors. (archons do bonus damage to them as well but are obviously not going to do well against the broodlords). The zerg needs corruptors to make broodlords.
Theorycraft: Another potential counter is not to fight broodlords head on - trade bases instead.
You know where his greater spire is from your observer, so go attack the base. The zerg tech tree is more fragile than the protoss one - If you destroy his spire you stop him producing any air units at all, where he has to kill all of your starports individually.
I bet protoss can rape bases harder than broodlords for the money, and if he sends his corruptors after your colossi, your phoenixes(or carriers) are free to kill his broodlords.
If he's got an unstoppable number of broodlords *and* a stronger ground force than you, then you already lost before he build the broodlords.
In this replay from the recent Zotac tourney, Raven shows us what seeker missiles and good control do to ~10 broodlords in a lategame zerg army. (3:10 in video)
On March 10 2010 16:01 -fj. wrote: In this replay from the recent Zotac tourney, Raven shows us what seeker missiles and good control do to ~10 broodlords in a lategame zerg army. (3:10 in video)
Wow, just realized medvacs make it almost impossible to tell whats going on under them in big battles like that.
I must admit, from what I've seen Broodlords seem to own. They are basically like the ultra-Guardian. Kinda weird since Guardians were so good to begin with...
On March 10 2010 16:09 HuskyTheHusky wrote: I must admit, from what I've seen Broodlords seem to own. They are basically like the ultra-Guardian. Kinda weird since Guardians were so good to begin with...
???
I can't remember the last time I watched a pro game where the player went guardians and actually won. And I can remember plenty of games where a player had a sizable advantage, went Guardians, and then lost.
the best way to deal with zerg once he has broodlords is to abuse their lack of mobility, and avoid fighting them when theyre protected. theyre extremely slow and any time they attack/harass your expos you should go try to take out expansions. you should either be able to take them out or engage his now broodlord-less army. most likely zerg will try to defend with ground, very unlikely he'll ignore and support broodlords. in which case the broodlords are likely undefended for a small window of opportunity, try to take advantage of this and use a group of vikings or a group of marines can quickly focus the undefended broodlords. expanding more while taking expos or harassing the zerg at all his bases is one of the most effective ways to deal with it.
this is largely map-dependant though so you really need to consider what your best options are on each map and individual game.
I wrote this for a terran vs broodlord thread but similar ideas apply. plus yes they are incredibly costly and high tech so good players ive faced hit you at a timing where you're just about to get them but haven't yet, (scans/observer on hive/greater spire) because for that window the zerg will have fewer units out because of the high cost of going for them
ye im gona have to agree there should not be a i get this unit out i win unit maybe we just dont know the counters yet but brood lord does seem strong so far
Has anyone tried getting a few BCs as soon as the zerg starts getting hive tech? Their DPS is insane (especially against Ground to get rid of Broodlings), and Yamato is perfect for killing Broodlords. Both units are at the very end of the tech tree which should be fair. If you are using the BCs together with your main army you shouldn't need to upgrade them a lot either.
broodlords are not a natural progression.. if zerg doesnt build spire midgame if the situation didnt require it... and zerg players dont evolve greater spire just for the fuck of it on the other hand, i feel terran players tech starport alot more often than zerg players do with spire. its more natural then, for terran players to build a fusion core and transition to cruisers
On March 10 2010 16:14 TheYango wrote: I can't remember the last time I watched a pro game where the player went guardians and actually won. And I can remember plenty of games where a player had a sizable advantage, went Guardians, and then lost.
Definitely true in SC1. But imagine how much better guards would be if they didn't stack as much, storm did half damage, irradiate didn't exist, sairs didn't exist, goons were gimped, goliaths didn't exist, etc. That's basically SC2.
On March 10 2010 16:37 ffswowsucks wrote: I have the same problem as the OP but instead of broodlords, ULTRALISKS.,omg
... how? ultralisks are so bulky, think of one time where more than 3 of them were hitting ur army at any given time? Ever used a colossus or thor? both are > ultralisks. Colossus = omg there is a cliff ill go stand on it = gg ultralisk. thor = OMG i have an ability that stuns and rapes ur face, gg ultralisk.
But i dont think brood lords are op at all tbh, if he gets his FINAL TIER UNIT, GET YOURS. BC's>Broodlords. If your a protoss get templars, phoenixs,carriers ? Who wants to know what happens to 5 broodlords if 5 phoenixes attack them? answer: they die. they cant run away, they cant fight back. n2m for the same cost of 5 brood lords u can have like 8-10 phoenixs.
Are people really not getting that SC2 is not about massing any one unit.. its about armys made of a bit of everything, its starting to seem farely obvious at least to me.
I dont understand how they are op at all except that they might be the Z answer to not gettting rolled by MmM ?
problem is most zerg have a corruptor-broodlord mass. I think void rays are the better counter to them with zeals on the ground to take out any hydra that might snipe your void rays... Pheonix are shit imo, only good against muta and taking out OLs in PvZ.
I want to propose another idea... what if gravitron beam worked both ways as in... can ground an air unit if desired or lift a ground unit. Would make sense and the disable could be critical to winning against brood lords. "graviton net" or something like that, temp disable requires micro and casting that can render broodlords attackable by ground units.
While I am do not have beta and not have a first person experience of StarCraft 2 yet, id like to point out that "stat comparison" is not always a good way to make a point. It might very well be flawed and used against you as for sake of argument.
As in this instance. The numbers to "prove" how much bang of a buck the broodlord is, is infact a bit contradictory.
Adding the broodling damage as well as it's hitpoints in the same equation for the broodlord unit doesn't work because either the broodling will live out it's full duration and do it's full potential damage; IE 10 attacks x 4 damage OR it will die before the duration and do the "buffer" of 25hp. It cannot do both to the full extent.
EDIT: Then again a broodling can give so much more due to overkill damage and I am actually not sure if the broodling actually dies along with it's last attack, however point was: Don't go by absolute numbers in situational scenarios as an argument.
On March 10 2010 11:35 wintergt wrote: Wow good post didn't know their attacks did damage of their own, and that they shoot twice at first. Imba.
This, as a zerg player myself I don't ever get to brood lords unless I had pretty much already won. By the time I get broods I'm usually 2 bases ahead of my opponent and I have him pretty much contained. At this point I get broods just to bust up his turtle.
Plus it takes FOREVER to get them. Spire takes forever to build, so does hive, and so does the greater spire upgrade. Then they have to morph on top of it, which takes like another 30 seconds. It really takes all day.
At this point, trying to stop them with ground is like trying to shoot down carriers using hydralisks without dark swarm in the SC1. There are some things you are just better off using the proper counter for, like vikings.
Some of my opponents have had some success destroying my army by using vikings to focus the broods while using ravens to hunter seeker whatever I have to shoot down vikings (usually muta or hydra). Just let your marines shoot at the broodlings or hydras. They still do good damage with just their air attack, but the broodlings don't live very long with marines around, so it takes em a lot longer to hack through your marines this way and buys you more time for your vikings to do their job.
yea saying they are imba is just like letting the opponent get 12 bc's in sc1 and whine about how imba they are, once you get so many of them, or like watching the protoss get carrier and try to win with pure ling, it just doesnt work that way, so stfu and lern to deal with them, they are even more expensive than and ulltrlisk, come on
Can anyone who have beta tell me if the raven spell that destroys incoming missiles (pseudo darkswarm that only does it's effect on ennemies) intercepts and kills broodlings before they can even land? If yes, you have no reason to whine about broodlords as tvz :o
How about you write down all the requirements to get a single broordlord out?
And why is nowhere mentioned that they are so damn slow?
Now Zerg finally have a decent unit that demands that the opponent pays attention to the battlefield we all whine?
Also, you can still win after he got broodlords out, it isnt as if a single one enters the field you automatically win the game. If that happens to you, I honestly and politely suggest you should change your strategy. Besides don't expect to win versus an army of fully upgraded hydras+broodlord when you come along with your group of zealots and sentries and a few immortals or with a MMM group.
One way Blizzard could solve this is to make Corruptors do melee air damage (as was suggested in an earlier thread created on this forum). Melee air damage is a really cool idea actually, if implemented correctly (the corruptors would for example require a speed upgrade).
If the corruptors did melee damage the BL+corruptor combo would not be overpowered, but still a valid type of play. This would require much more micro from the zerg, as taking down, for example the vikings, would need the corruptors to actually hunt them down. Thus probably open them up to a bit of ground fire, despite the new broodling wall constantly being made.
This solution could prevent BL+corruptors being a win this game button late game, and also adding a some nice uniqe features and style. However this would not solve the problem with BL+hydralisks beeing a bit to good.
Are you really saying that carriers were a "late game win now unit" ?? Sure carriers were good but the same arguments thats used in this thread can be used to them to an even larger extent. Late tech, expensive, takes forever to get many... most importantly they still had counters in SC1.
Probably Broodlords will be fine in a while, after people learn more about how to play against them. But some fine tuning will be done in this BETA before it actually works 100% ok. BL should be really good, as the late tech they are, but there must be viable counters to them so the late game still provides excitement.
If you're letting zerg get lots of broodlords you're probably doing something wrong.
So many years, so many betas and yet people still come out with nonsense like this. =/ If you think Broodlords are fine a good response would be to talk about the attack window or counter strategies, an I win unit is stupid in any game. I don't know SC2 well enough to comment on the Broodlord's balance so don't take my comment either way but please try to avoid such worthless responses in balance discussions.
they are not imba. Are they strong? - Yes. Broodlords are counter-able, they can't attack air so a few vikings or phoenix can own them. They also move very slow and have slow acceleration/deceleration. They are also morphed from corruptors instead of mutalisks so that gives them a steep availability. They are also pretty hard to get and require quite a lot of gas.
Zerg has to be on 3 bases or more in order to afford broodlord and not die before he gets them. Even if zerg gets them, you can still counter them and your example how siege tanks sucks against them is very lame and noob, since sige tanks can't attack air and are the worst units to counter the broodlings anyways. Marines and hellions on the other hand own the broodlings.
The biggest problem is that protoss AA isn't great (terran is a bit better but still, Z is great) compared to SC1. But still, broodlord are a bit imba...They should do MORE dmg but shouldn't spawn units that'll fuck up ur units AI and block ur path (not to mention that u'll never see only broodlords, it's easy to get some hydra with it in a late game....). And they should have a bit less HP... (something like 230-250).Afterall they do have a great range, dmg and spawning units.Of course they don't attack air, but against a toss, what would he do? (storm isn't good enough, phenix sux and would get decimated by corrupter, same for void ray and even Carriere against corrupeter/hydra would get pwned...Stalkers with blink could work but still,not good enough).
From the Terran perspective: They are slow. Vikings are a really versatile unit, and I don't see enough terran producing them. Although a zerg cannot go over-happy with air units with not air attacks, a Terran producing "too many" vikings can use them vs air or ground. They do a pretty fair job against most ground units- not spectacular, but enough that you can offset the worry of your army being too lopsided quite a bit.
So.. make more viking. Great AA range, decent ground attackers, all around a very "safe" unit to mass a bit.
I saw this one video of a single viking killing 50 broodlords all by itself. It was pretty stupid. Vikings really need to be nerfed. 1 Unit should not be able to kill 50 units.
I also saw this video of a single banshee killing 400 ultralisks. NERF!
It's super easy on a map like twilight for a pair of zergs to go all in air/lings and gain map control, so when i bust in with 5 ravens and a hundred rines with medivacs and the enemy has 20 broodlords (just a large scale comparison yet it applies to a lot of cases) the marines get walled off from broodlings [making target fire almost impossible] and auto shoot the broodlings, so you go to HSM the enemy and mutas/corruptors appear and take them out, there's too much broodlings to shoot up so when you cast HSM they just fly away till the missile dies...
, since the game is full of hard counters, what is the hard counter for broodlords?
its so easy for zerg to tech switch too and so fast, BOOM all my air is dead because you made vikings, here's a million speedlings
They're expensive, they've got a slow two-step build process, and they're hard countered by any air-to-air unit. They're utterly helpless against their big air counterparts from other races. I don't see how they can be imbalanced.
I can see how they'd be used to end a disproportionate number of games, because they're a really great mopping-up unit, good at destroying buildings with no pathing worries. But "convenient for finishing a won game quickly" is not a balance problem.
The Broodlord's intrinsic power, relative to some arbitrary equivalent in SC 1, isn't that important. It's what people can do against it in SC 2 that matters.
Terran has many options - the raven and the viking are both natural tech progressions for Terran and they do well vs. Broodlords. Broodlords tend to clump up, and that makes a group of them susceptible to HSM. Vikings outrange Mutas and Corruptors, do massive damage to armored, and can snipe Broodlords from the back. With a combination of vikings and ravens, Broodlord supported armies can be defeated by Terran in the late-game.
For Protoss, though, the going's tough. Void rays simply aren't a realistic counter to BLs because they are fragile, get focused down very easily by units like hydras & mutas which are likely to be in the Zerg's normal army, and are expensive. Phoenixes are even worse because they do 2x5 bonus to light and broodlords are armored and starts with 2 armor, meaning that phoenixes do a total of 6 damage per attack to a broodlord, meaning you'll take down the broodlords roughly five minutes after they finish off your base.
Worst of all, Protoss suffers horribly from the corruptor-broodlord tech path. Mutas are hard to deal with as is, and all a Zerg has to do is get a couple of broodlords to shut down immortal heavy armies, and the corruptors simply destroy colossi, meaning that you have virtually no options for late game except to hope that you can somehow catch the Zerg unawares with his BLs and sentry blink them to death. Carriers? I haven't yet seen carriers used effectively in PvZ. But maybe someone will prove me wrong.
In summary, Protoss needs a counter to Broodlords.
I was of the opinion that broodlords were fine for a long time until 2 nights ago. We got rolled by 20 broodlords and it was impossible to focus fire them with a ground army because of the wall of broodlings.
Especially in 2v2, the enemy can make it really hard, if not impossible, to flank them.
Also, an army of them can be crafted from one second to the next in 2v2 thanks to resource abus- sharing. I would have loved to make an aerial counter to them except that they appeared from one second to the next and the time frame between "oh shit! BROODLORDSSSSS" and "gg" was unmeasurably short.
In the Punic Wars, the Romans had a lot of issue dealing with the general Hannibal, essentially they couldn't attack him because if they did they knew they would get slaughtered. So the Romans had a strategy that applies to this discussion.
The Romans attacked his troops everywhere he wasn't and retreated as soon as they saw his army. Utilizing the fact that he could not be everywhere at once to their advantage.
In the case of brood lords this could be applicable. The units themselves are agonizingly slow and therefore easy to get away from. If he has brood lords somewhere, have your troops everywhere else attacking multiple bases at once.
This puts him in the awkward situation of deciding to either try to move the slow beasts back home to defend, or try to get a win before you mow his base down. In said situation you can delay his damage by trying to kill a lot of broodling or use blink stalkers to keep the brood lords occupied and not killing your buildings while your main army is pushing his base with the advantage that comes from having to spend a fortune to make those bad boy brood lords.
I think we’re all in agreement here that in TvZ, Vikings is the way to go vs broodlords.
Now the two most common zerg builds I’ve seen that approaches late game is either muta/ling or mass hydra, each perhaps with a twist of roach or baneling or infestor but that’s really besides the point we’re trying to discuss here.
Let’s look at mass hydra first because it seems to be more prevalent. When you play against that, you should technically just get mmm + tanks if you’re doing bio, or mass hellion / tank if you’re going mech. However, because we have to keep in mind that currently Vikings are the counter to broodlords, everyone who thinks broodlords is fine the way it is thusly assumes that terrans are getting Vikings as well. Such that by the time the broodlord gets out we have enough to kill them.
For every viking you get, you're essentially giving up a tank. 125/100 vs 150/125 (I think?)
now if your opponent goes mass hydra then you're going to need tanks. mmm and hellions alone only gets you so far. so where you get vikings to kill broodlords you're going to be giving up tanks for either defense or offense.
Note that other than to counter the broodlord there is no point in getting mass Vikings when playing against a hydra build. you're not going to get in enough harass / ovie sniping in the long run for you to risk not producing other units like tanks or even dps units like mmm. Truthfully I can’t see a ground force of Vikings pushing with tanks, since the Vikings cost so much gas it’s just not cost efficient (as of opposed to hellions with upgrades)
So for everyone who thinks broodlords are balanced, please realize that you’re asking terrans at least to make a unit purely to counter the broodlords.
alternatively is the muta strat, which i've rarely seen in my games so far and i think that's due to the thor reworking. Obviously zerg can go muta ling, but because it’s so expensive and can blow up really badly I haven’t seen it done much. In that case Vikings become even more precarious since at least hydras would have to move around to dodge tank fire mutas don’t really need to move at all, other thank to dodge mmm fire which the broodlords would absorb anyway.
I don’t know if the same can be said for protoss, but I honestly believe that a zerg who gets broodlords with nothing else is just setting a bad example. 3 broodlords + 15 hydras can really mop the floor in any battle, especially with a range of 9 on the broodlord (I’ve lost with 3 tanks, 2 thors, and a decent marine maurauder army against that exact combination of units)
Lastly please realize that broodlords are not all that difficult to get. No one invests 1000/1000 into broodlords unless they’re just dicking around. The broodlord situation usually comes around like this: lair → muta → hydra → 2 or 3 corruptors (which essentially giving up 3 mutas which after the hydra transition isn’t really that big of a deal (375/300?) that’s maybe like 5 hydras? Apologies for not getting the exact right numbers) and then once they hit hive they just get upgrades and all of a sudden why not get that → greater spire and then it’s only a stone’s throw away from getting 3 broodlords.
My argument comes down to this: it may not look like it, but broodlords are way too cost effective. Adding 3 units to your game should not turn the tide of the battle like broodlords do. 3 defilers can swarm or plague, 3 templar can storm, 3 lurkers can kill 4 hotkeys of units, but that’s all contingent on proper micro and positioning. With broodlords, as long as they hover over protective units they can wreak havoc. Are they completely broken? No. Do they need retooling? Yes.
They're undoubtedly a very powerful unit, the problem is that in a straight up fight, fair enough, they're not that great, it's the way they synergise with other units and the environment that makes them horrible. They're more capable of cliff abusing than battle cruisers or carriers, especially given the ease zerg has in maintaining an escort once they've teched that high, but the real pain is when a decent zerg supports an ok roach/hydra ground army with broodlords. Quite aside from adding insane damage and range, countering any sneaky micro the opponent might attempt to utilise range, a couple of broodlords is like having a permanent PDD over your army, as the enemy will auto target the broodlings over your forces. In the course of a drawn out battle, a broodlord can add upwards of 4-500 HP to the zerg army from damage directed at Blings instead of line units. Sniping the lord is extremely difficult due to the bulk of the zerg army, while the pressuring effect of the broodlings makes countersniping of any vikings or phoenix rather easy indeed. if one considers this, a broodlord is actually a better 'tank' than an ultra, as well as having comparable damage output, 9 range and flying.
neither carriers nor battlecruisers have this effect, they just add significant damage. BC's are a good bit tougher, carriers are faster and able to harass more effectively by themselves, but neither are in any way as abuseable as the broodling effect.
On April 15 2010 14:57 Azarkon wrote: In summary, Protoss needs a counter to Broodlords.
I thought stalkers with blink was the standard counter at this point.
It is, rather, the only counter, and it is not a counter at all, because if the Zerg has his broodlords with his army, you'll just blink your stalkers into the middle of his army.
My argument comes down to this: it may not look like it, but broodlords are way too cost effective. Adding 3 units to your game should not turn the tide of the battle like broodlords do. 3 defilers can swarm or plague, 3 templar can storm, 3 lurkers can kill 4 hotkeys of units, but that’s all contingent on proper micro and positioning. With broodlords, as long as they hover over protective units they can wreak havoc. Are they completely broken? No. Do they need retooling? Yes.
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I don't play toss, but I've always had the impression that all you needed to do to make storm effective was select your templars and roll your face across the keyboard.
I think your general analysis is fine but I don't think 3 broodlords really own as much as you want to make it seem. It's once there are enough to stop your army from being able to hit the broodlords that tips the scale from fine to impossible to defeat in a straight up fight.
On April 15 2010 15:08 Wire wrote: I think we’re all in agreement here that in TvZ, Vikings is the way to go vs broodlords.
Ravens + vikings, actually. And really, just mass ravens. Look at the Maka vs. Idra game linked in this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=119659 where Maka abuses Ravens to completely annihilate the Zerg army - be it composed of roaches, lings, mutas, or corruptors. He doesn't fight Broodlords there because Idra never got them, but plenty of other high-level games show effective use of Ravens vs. broodlords.
In short, Ravens at the moment are like science vessels in SCBW - they counter just about every Zerg unit in the game, and with a mass of Ravens late game Terrans can easily fight on par with late game Zergs.
My argument comes down to this: it may not look like it, but broodlords are way too cost effective. Adding 3 units to your game should not turn the tide of the battle like broodlords do. 3 defilers can swarm or plague, 3 templar can storm, 3 lurkers can kill 4 hotkeys of units, but that’s all contingent on proper micro and positioning. With broodlords, as long as they hover over protective units they can wreak havoc. Are they completely broken? No. Do they need retooling? Yes.
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I don't play toss, but I've always had the impression that all you needed to do to make storm effective was select your templars and roll your face across the keyboard.
I think your general analysis is fine but I don't think 3 broodlords really own as much as you want to make it seem. It's once there are enough to stop your army from being able to hit the broodlords that tips the scale from fine to impossible to defeat in a straight up fight.
Yes, that's all u need to do to make templar effective but after the nerf to storm AoE it covers a horrendously small area so you need almost twice as many storms as you did before. Don't forget that HT are pretty expensive. Also they only do 80 damage per storm and brood lords have 275 hp. It takes a LOT of storms to do significant damage to BLs. Also, after storm are nerf, even brood lords can dodge storm to some degree.
and someone said stalkers were BL counters. Yes, the technically are when they have blink. The only problem is that stalkers are raped by pretty much any zerg ground force so it's ideal but it's the only the Protoss has.
On April 15 2010 14:57 Azarkon wrote: In summary, Protoss needs a counter to Broodlords.
I thought stalkers with blink was the standard counter at this point.
It is, rather, the only counter, and it is not a counter at all, because if the Zerg has his broodlords with his army, you'll just blink your stalkers into the middle of his army.
Okay, so now his broodlords are staying with his army the whole time, which means that he's got a terrain-bound (and force-field blockable) army which only moves at broodlord speed, and they're all stacked up to be stormed at once.
On March 10 2010 11:48 PerksPlus wrote: Pretty sure if they have 6 brood lords you can have 6 battle cruisers, don't really see the problem.
not true at all. battlecruisers require a significant alteration in your build. broodlords are a natural progression for late game zergs.
What does this even mean? You mean that the "significant alteration" is that you transition from mid-tier-units to late-tier units? (exactly like the zerg must do to get BLs). Or do you mean that your gameplan involved other late-tier units and that BL is imba because they force you to adopt?
Yes, I understand that you need more buildings, that is one of the keydiffrences between zerg and the other races. Scout and adopt is the key.
These discussions you used to hear about immortals and colossos aswell, for instance, but that was before ppl learnt how to adopt to them. I dont think BLs have been common enough for ppl to learn how to play against them yet. Maybe they need to be nerfed, maybe not, who can say for certain until they really have played them alot? You havent really seen much of BLs in the tourneys, wich seems to indicate to me that BL isnt such a "autowin" that has been suggested here, because to be honest, if you can autowin a tournament, you would, no matter how cheezy strats or imba units youd have to use. So wait and see and hold back on this imba-threads, thats my opinion.
Notice your army engagements points. At 9 range, Brood Lords stay in the back and fire broodlings at the front line of enemy units. Notice that for no cost, you have generated a spiky ground barrier that will significantly derail AI and destroy many a ground unit. 3 range in front of Brood Lords you have hydralisks, who are your heavy hitters and anti air. Ground units without range have trouble engaging them at all, due to the aforementioned wall of spikes. Ground units with range are either near the back lines shooting infinitely replenishable broodlings or dying to said broodlings in the front line. With a moderate roach shield 3 range in front of your hydras, you ensure that most hydras survive the engagement. With no ground support, you could send in your air, which tend to die quickly/instantly to Hydra fire when you're Protoss.
Essentially, this is the perfect army. There's no realistic way to fight against it. The problem I feel is the fact that the Zerg loses NOTHING when spawning a broodling. Imagine Carriers with free interceptors that would shoot out one by one and just attack constantly. It's like that, but Broodlings do more DPS.
when zergs tech hive against my terran, they die. Without fail. Straight up broodlords get murdered by MMM extremely quickly. Broodlords and zerglings gets murdered, broodlord and whatever unit combination the zerg has to go with it gets murdered.
I disagree completely, at least in ZvT (and zvz too I guess(
Broodlord serves its role in the Zerg tech tree perfectly: it's a failsafe against overly defensive players who are able to shut out the Zerg with heavy defense but don't go on the offensive. The result is that the Zerg will expand and get Broodlords, and you will lose.
However, if Zerg tries to rush or tech to Broodlord without map control/advantage, he/she will lose.
They're highly necessary because Ultralisks are not as good in SC2, so there is no other unit that could fulfill that role.
On April 15 2010 16:23 Ecrilon wrote: Notice your army engagements points. At 9 range, Brood Lords stay in the back and fire broodlings at the front line of enemy units. Notice that for no cost, you have generated a spiky ground barrier that will significantly derail AI and destroy many a ground unit. 3 range in front of Brood Lords you have hydralisks, who are your heavy hitters and anti air. Ground units without range have trouble engaging them at all, due to the aforementioned wall of spikes. Ground units with range are either near the back lines shooting infinitely replenishable broodlings or dying to said broodlings in the front line. With a moderate roach shield 3 range in front of your hydras, you ensure that most hydras survive the engagement. With no ground support, you could send in your air, which tend to die quickly/instantly to Hydra fire when you're Protoss.
Essentially, this is the perfect army. There's no realistic way to fight against it. The problem I feel is the fact that the Zerg loses NOTHING when spawning a broodling. Imagine Carriers with free interceptors that would shoot out one by one and just attack constantly. It's like that, but Broodlings do more DPS.
Having a unit be ridiculously good doesnt mean its bad for the game overall. At least if its more of a support unit than something you can just mass by itself.
Think of defilers for example, swarms are so ridiculous but somehow the game plays well anyhow.
Maybe zerg is too strong lategame, but thats not attributable to broodlords exclusively.
I do agree that broodlords are a bit overpowered late game, not because they are strong in themselves, but considerable amounts of micro is needed against to defeat broodlords while broodlords only need to attack+move to be effective. It's unfair that one player has much harder micro in order to maintain a fair game.
I don't know about ZvT, but broodlords are way too tough in PvZ. The ONLY way to stop them is to blink micro and target fire with stalkers. Even then it's really tough. Too much focus has to be on the micro, while the Zerg can just attack+move and spend all his efforts microing. Broodlords are always paired up with corrupters or hydras, so carriers, phoenixes, and void rays don't work well.
What do people think about removing broodlords' ability to store 2 attacks, and also make them pay 10 minerals per shot? That way they have an operating cost, which forces the zerg to build the broodling shots instead of attack+move and forget about it, and also using broodlords does not allow zerg to mass up hydras or corrupters as quickly so soft counters to broodlords would exist.
aye its quite annoying to see all the whining i dont know exactly what to do against them as terran.. air to air sounds fair enough to me... but as protoss i belive you can find a game that either husky or hdstarcraft commented where broodlords arrive and only survive due to decent cliff abuse. and wonder what protoss used to counter the BL... the stalker, toss allready had buckets of it.. and had the BL been over solid ground they would have melted away. he even says it right in the commentary oh you say broodlings would block the path? error on your part, blink goes right past broodlings and right under the broodlords
i have managed to use broodlords in some games, usually because i was at advantage but wouldnt be able to win with my lower units alone, but i try realy realy hard never to put a broodlord into a position where ground can even reach it
like on scrapyard... you dont think i would be dumb enough to send the broodlords in the front door where the massive mmm army awaits? i go around the back where i have the option of backing the hell away of the marine ball and pick a few down. without micro and correct use.. broodlords are countered damn easily. If you were not ready for em.. then get angry at yourself, you failed scouting, you failed adapting, your opponent managed to fool you and you deserved it! learn from it and come back stronger
Yeah....blink vs broodlords is not fun for the broodlords at all.
They're like carriers people are starting to notice and people are starting to react accordingly. Get up in their face and snipe the broodlord itself and it's taken care of easily.
EDIT: and marine ball's vaporize broodlings so hard, sometimes marines don't even fall at all with medivacs.
Platinum Random though not high ranked. I hope to get better as I learn more builds. Anyways Broodlords are strong because of their range and because of zerg's wonderful all-purpose unit, the upgraded (or downgraded some would say) hydralisk. The two units complement each other perfectly as long as they can stick together. All air and ground is shut off with broodlings tanking most enemy shots and hydralisks taking care of any units that come within range.
That's not to say there's no counters at all. As far as I've played, there is one counter from each race against them. Terran: Viking. The 9 range and slightly faster speed make them good snipers where hydralisks can't them down instantly.
Toss: warpgate stalkers with blink. Pretty self explanatory, just know all units going in are going to be sacrificed. Storm is also pretty practical to keep the hydralisks at bay though their pathing get retarded with a few broodlings. I think it has something to do with the acceleration of the unit or something.
They're not unbeatable even with equal cost armies but seeing as zerg is still capable of being above in base count, it does seem unfair.
No, carriers and battlecruisers are not good comparisons. While they might be just as strong, tech switching to them is a much more complicated switch. Games longer than 25 minutes with a zerg can almost always expect broodlords.
The scary thing about broodlords imo is that they can spawn more and more units without any additional resources from the zerg, and that the broodlings just take up so much damage =/
On April 15 2010 17:26 DrivE wrote: The scary thing about broodlords imo is that they can spawn more and more units without any additional resources from the zerg, and that the broodlings just take up so much damage =/
Broodlings do deal so much damage. You really really need armor upgrades vs them else they will tear you to shreds. I think Broodlings get +1 from upgrades, personally I feel that they shouldn't. However, with the current state of melee units atleast Zergs tend not to get melee unpgrades. So yea, without the +3 armor those broodlings are going to be hitting you repeatedly for 4 damage and that really really hurts.
As a protoss to really counter Broodlords I think you need stalkers (with +3 armor, at the very least) with blink and if they are using them offensively, a Mothership. Motherships are invaluable defensive units lategame imo and a vortex can be incredibly useful in stopping the roaches/hydra from hitting your stalkers while you quickly dispatch the broodlords.
On March 10 2010 11:32 Elaeli wrote: You can get Broodlords in any situation, even if you go the Ultralisk route, as they don't need any air- or ability upgrades to be useful. A T or P on the other hand has to get out of his way and make air units to counter a few Broodlords, significantly weakening their ground force against the already present Ultralings.
this might be one of the most ridiculous quotes I have ever read, why shouldnt T or P have to go out of their way to counter the most expensive unit in the game?(and a better question how does the zerg have unlimited money for ultraling AND broodlords)
I noticed, atleast it feels like if you've got +attack hellions, it can really help against the load of broodlings as they seem to clump up together alot, giving your hellions a nice time to shoot them all down.
On April 15 2010 16:23 Ecrilon wrote: Notice your army engagements points. At 9 range, Brood Lords stay in the back and fire broodlings at the front line of enemy units. Notice that for no cost, you have generated a spiky ground barrier that will significantly derail AI and destroy many a ground unit. 3 range in front of Brood Lords you have hydralisks, who are your heavy hitters and anti air. Ground units without range have trouble engaging them at all, due to the aforementioned wall of spikes. Ground units with range are either near the back lines shooting infinitely replenishable broodlings or dying to said broodlings in the front line. With a moderate roach shield 3 range in front of your hydras, you ensure that most hydras survive the engagement. With no ground support, you could send in your air, which tend to die quickly/instantly to Hydra fire when you're Protoss.
Essentially, this is the perfect army. There's no realistic way to fight against it. The problem I feel is the fact that the Zerg loses NOTHING when spawning a broodling. Imagine Carriers with free interceptors that would shoot out one by one and just attack constantly. It's like that, but Broodlings do more DPS.
Seeker Missiles. Micro well.
I love how biased these types of posts are in telling one side to micro well and assuming the other is retarded. assuming perfect micro, the zerg will spread his broodlords so seeker missiles hit 1 each, maybe a little splash. 3 seeker missiles to kill a broodlord. The only time seeker missiles are actually a good counter is when zerg bunches up all of them so you wipe out like 10 with 5 missiles. A ball of marines that gets into position will vaporize broodlords, but a good zerg will never let that happen with cliff or meatshield abuse, ala carriers in BW Plus alot of you are oversimplifying the problem and taking it as fighting pure broodlord+summoned broodlings. zergs have other units that they will use. yeah stalkers with blink own broodlords if theres nothing else, but what happens if theres 20 hydras under the broodlords? considering the relative DPS's of the units, I'm going to bet on the hydra-broodlord+broodling to kill stalkers first.
On April 15 2010 16:23 Ecrilon wrote: Notice your army engagements points. At 9 range, Brood Lords stay in the back and fire broodlings at the front line of enemy units. Notice that for no cost, you have generated a spiky ground barrier that will significantly derail AI and destroy many a ground unit. 3 range in front of Brood Lords you have hydralisks, who are your heavy hitters and anti air. Ground units without range have trouble engaging them at all, due to the aforementioned wall of spikes. Ground units with range are either near the back lines shooting infinitely replenishable broodlings or dying to said broodlings in the front line. With a moderate roach shield 3 range in front of your hydras, you ensure that most hydras survive the engagement. With no ground support, you could send in your air, which tend to die quickly/instantly to Hydra fire when you're Protoss.
Essentially, this is the perfect army. There's no realistic way to fight against it. The problem I feel is the fact that the Zerg loses NOTHING when spawning a broodling. Imagine Carriers with free interceptors that would shoot out one by one and just attack constantly. It's like that, but Broodlings do more DPS.
Seeker Missiles. Micro well.
I love how biased these types of posts are in telling one side to micro well and assuming the other is retarded. assuming perfect micro, the zerg will spread his broodlords so seeker missiles hit 1 each, maybe a little splash. 3 seeker missiles to kill a broodlord. The only time seeker missiles are actually a good counter is when zerg bunches up all of them so you wipe out like 10 with 5 missiles. A ball of marines that gets into position will vaporize broodlords, but a good zerg will never let that happen with cliff or meatshield abuse, ala carriers in BW Plus alot of you are oversimplifying the problem and taking it as fighting pure broodlord+summoned broodlings. zergs have other units that they will use. yeah stalkers with blink own broodlords if theres nothing else, but what happens if theres 20 hydras under the broodlords? considering the relative DPS's of the units, I'm going to bet on the hydra-broodlord+broodling to kill stalkers first.
I'd advise you to read your own post again and realize you are doing THE SAME THING in regards to hydra-broodlord+ broodling vs ...stalker?
On April 15 2010 15:08 Wire wrote: I think we’re all in agreement here that in TvZ, Vikings is the way to go vs broodlords.
Now the two most common zerg builds I’ve seen that approaches late game is either muta/ling or mass hydra, each perhaps with a twist of roach or baneling or infestor but that’s really besides the point we’re trying to discuss here.
Let’s look at mass hydra first because it seems to be more prevalent. When you play against that, you should technically just get mmm + tanks if you’re doing bio, or mass hellion / tank if you’re going mech. However, because we have to keep in mind that currently Vikings are the counter to broodlords, everyone who thinks broodlords is fine the way it is thusly assumes that terrans are getting Vikings as well. Such that by the time the broodlord gets out we have enough to kill them.
For every viking you get, you're essentially giving up a tank. 125/100 vs 150/125 (I think?)
now if your opponent goes mass hydra then you're going to need tanks. mmm and hellions alone only gets you so far. so where you get vikings to kill broodlords you're going to be giving up tanks for either defense or offense.
Note that other than to counter the broodlord there is no point in getting mass Vikings when playing against a hydra build. you're not going to get in enough harass / ovie sniping in the long run for you to risk not producing other units like tanks or even dps units like mmm. Truthfully I can’t see a ground force of Vikings pushing with tanks, since the Vikings cost so much gas it’s just not cost efficient (as of opposed to hellions with upgrades)
So for everyone who thinks broodlords are balanced, please realize that you’re asking terrans at least to make a unit purely to counter the broodlords.
alternatively is the muta strat, which i've rarely seen in my games so far and i think that's due to the thor reworking. Obviously zerg can go muta ling, but because it’s so expensive and can blow up really badly I haven’t seen it done much. In that case Vikings become even more precarious since at least hydras would have to move around to dodge tank fire mutas don’t really need to move at all, other thank to dodge mmm fire which the broodlords would absorb anyway.
I don’t know if the same can be said for protoss, but I honestly believe that a zerg who gets broodlords with nothing else is just setting a bad example. 3 broodlords + 15 hydras can really mop the floor in any battle, especially with a range of 9 on the broodlord (I’ve lost with 3 tanks, 2 thors, and a decent marine maurauder army against that exact combination of units)
Lastly please realize that broodlords are not all that difficult to get. No one invests 1000/1000 into broodlords unless they’re just dicking around. The broodlord situation usually comes around like this: lair → muta → hydra → 2 or 3 corruptors (which essentially giving up 3 mutas which after the hydra transition isn’t really that big of a deal (375/300?) that’s maybe like 5 hydras? Apologies for not getting the exact right numbers) and then once they hit hive they just get upgrades and all of a sudden why not get that → greater spire and then it’s only a stone’s throw away from getting 3 broodlords.
My argument comes down to this: it may not look like it, but broodlords are way too cost effective. Adding 3 units to your game should not turn the tide of the battle like broodlords do. 3 defilers can swarm or plague, 3 templar can storm, 3 lurkers can kill 4 hotkeys of units, but that’s all contingent on proper micro and positioning. With broodlords, as long as they hover over protective units they can wreak havoc. Are they completely broken? No. Do they need retooling? Yes.
Are you kidding? Vikings are used already in TvZ, it's not like you have to go out of your way to get them. Vikings are incredibly easy to get, and you surmising that Broodlords are "easy to get" is rather laughable, especially when you say that mutaling isn't a great combo leaving there little reason for Zerg to get a spire (especially after thors are out) if not for the particular reason of broodlords. If you're talking about a "brood/hydra" army then you're effectively playing a really slow army, why not try using mobility to YOUR advantage for once? I don't understand why you can't use a few ravens to hunter seeker the hydras and move in with vikings as the hydras are running, or something of that sort.
I'm not saying Broodlords might not need a revamp, but I think your points are absolutely awful.
On April 15 2010 16:23 Ecrilon wrote: Notice your army engagements points. At 9 range, Brood Lords stay in the back and fire broodlings at the front line of enemy units.
You can actually get additional range out of your broodlords if you micro their attacks on fellow broodlings. start the chain by attacking a unit (like a ling), and send all but 1 broodlings to attack, and keep the chain going by attacking 1 broodling. takes a fair bit of micro to keep up, and it does lower their potential dps (as the further they are from their target, the less attacks they'll get off). Not really practical, just saying that the 9 range isn't a limiting factor.
Everyone knows broodlords are imbalanced. Their inital dmg could be 2 , and they would still be imba cause they fuck up pathing and broodlings soak way to much.
There is no easy fix to this problem, and I would rather have them rework this SILLY unit.
Broods take two of the longest upgrades in the game to get (that are both VISIBLE TO SCOUTING), cost 250/250 and you complain about not having counters... t.t
On April 15 2010 18:19 Butigroove wrote: Broods take two of the longest upgrades in the game to get (that are both VISIBLE TO SCOUTING), cost 250/250 and you complain about not having counters... t.t
I don't think Hive tech is broodlord specific so that only leaves the greater spire. Although it takes time to upgrade, zerg can start producing multiple simultaneously right away.
And funny enough, the best race to deal with broodlord is just another zerg. Can't do shit to roach/hydra with some hydra micro.
On March 10 2010 11:32 Elaeli wrote: So one thing you notice when playing against a Z is - you DIE if he gets Broodlords and you aren't massively ahead and/or fully prepared with a fleet of for example Vikings or Ravens.
Isn't that just the same as any other lategame air combo though? I mean, if a terran or protoss gets a fleet of BC's/Carriers and you aren't massively ahead or fully prepared for it, you die?
Yes, the broodlings are annoying, but I just don't think it's as 'OP' as you say.
Blords make units for free. Like a constant infested marine being casted. You can compare them to carriers who pay nothing for interceptors and produce them instantly. Oh and their interceptors are ground, effectively keeping most ranged units away.
this kinda turns back to the "ultimate" unit combo of hydra lords, consider build time and cost and find a weakness? you dont seriously play to ram your army into his and see what happens? thats copper attitude. there is a big damn risk to go for a decent amount of broodlords, due to the sick cost.. doing a decent timing push can put him out of hydras.. and then he dont get that far withotu using time making hydras. when no hydras you snipe the broodlords.. hydras are back but no broodlords.. ops
if you push him hard enough or simply make him to worried about a close at hand push, he wont go for broodlords, because the minute he does his defence will go without enough reinforcement and it crumbles before the oh so powerful units arrive
without pushing and scouting you are useless, fine you can turtle.. but then you should expect a broodlord coming up your tailpipe so you prepare for it. Someone said if the broodlords had perfect micro you cant use the seeker missile, but what if the terran has enough vikings and good enough micro to snipe the broodlords while dodging the muta/corruptors?
I love how people seem convinced that a ground army is supposed to be able to counter them. Do you think they're extremely vulnerable to air and can't run away because of a random decision?
I'm pretty sure it's not too hard to find options before about 10 minutes, which is about how long it takes to get them... and this is assuming the opponent isn't pressuring. Oh, you built an entire army of units that suck against them and let the zerg acquire brood lords? Strategy. The end.
This thread should be closed regarding the new Forum Rules. Even though it was created before.
Broodlords are terrible expensive, require high tech, are slow and can't attack air. If people can't take advantage of any of these facts they're simply noobs.
I want evidence in form of Platinum League Replays.
It's like a lategame mech army vs zerg, or mass carrier/dragoon/HT vs terran. If you let him get it, you're dead. This is an asynchronous game, certain races will be at an advantage at certain points in the game. It's up to the player to minimize the advantage windows of the opponent and maximize their own advantage windows.
The only real problem with brood lords is that they overlap too much with Ultralisks and make them obsolete: e.g. both are late game expensive ground attackers that can tank well. But the Ultralisk is vulnerable to tanks and immortals, which makes it less worthwile to use them against big ground armies.
So either the brood lord or the ultralisk need a change in their role a bit or one of the two has to go. It was the same reason the Lurker had to go.
P and T just got spoiled sao far that they don't need to go late game to win, because their mid game armies are so strong.
On April 15 2010 18:19 Butigroove wrote: Broods take two of the longest upgrades in the game to get (that are both VISIBLE TO SCOUTING), cost 250/250 and you complain about not having counters... t.t
I don't think Hive tech is broodlord specific so that only leaves the greater spire. Although it takes time to upgrade, zerg can start producing multiple simultaneously right away.
And funny enough, the best race to deal with broodlord is just another zerg. Can't do shit to roach/hydra with some hydra micro.
I haven't built a hive yet in a high level competitive game that wasnt for broodlords. Hell, I've build maybe 3 spires for mutas in over 200 1:1 games after the reset, they just arent very good.
On April 15 2010 19:27 imbecile wrote: The only real problem with brood lords is that they overlap too much with Ultralisks and make them obsolete: e.g. both are late game expensive ground attackers that can tank well. But the Ultralisk is vulnerable to tanks and immortals, which makes it less worthwile to use them against big ground armies.
So either the brood lord or the ultralisk need a change in their role a bit or one of the two has to go. It was the same reason the Lurker had to go.
P and T just got spoiled sao far that they don't need to go late game to win, because their mid game armies are so strong.
No, the problem wiht ultralisks is that they are bad. Roach, Hydra, Ling, Baneling, even Queen are better unit options lol.
I'm a terran player, so I'll invite any nerf to the broodlord if it makes my live easier Whether they're gamechangeing and imba I can't say, but I would like to just point out that carriers, the interceptor summoning bastards, had to have destroyable interceptors cost 25 minerals each for a reason. Broodlords aren't as versatile of carriers, but they still get free mini attackers which rape...hard.
On April 15 2010 18:19 Butigroove wrote: Broods take two of the longest upgrades in the game to get (that are both VISIBLE TO SCOUTING), cost 250/250 and you complain about not having counters... t.t
I don't think Hive tech is broodlord specific so that only leaves the greater spire. Although it takes time to upgrade, zerg can start producing multiple simultaneously right away.
And funny enough, the best race to deal with broodlord is just another zerg. Can't do shit to roach/hydra with some hydra micro.
I haven't built a hive yet in a high level competitive game that wasnt for broodlords. Hell, I've build maybe 3 spires for mutas in over 200 1:1 games after the reset, they just arent very good.
On April 15 2010 19:27 imbecile wrote: The only real problem with brood lords is that they overlap too much with Ultralisks and make them obsolete: e.g. both are late game expensive ground attackers that can tank well. But the Ultralisk is vulnerable to tanks and immortals, which makes it less worthwile to use them against big ground armies.
So either the brood lord or the ultralisk need a change in their role a bit or one of the two has to go. It was the same reason the Lurker had to go.
P and T just got spoiled sao far that they don't need to go late game to win, because their mid game armies are so strong.
No, the problem wiht ultralisks is that they are bad. Roach, Hydra, Ling, Baneling, even Queen are better unit options lol.
Wait, did you just say Mutalisks are not very good? Seriously if you manage to get a group of about 15 of them, they can literally one shot a thor in a single sweep, the thor fires so slow that sometimes it'll walk around for a while trying to work out what to do, or it'll fire once and that's it.
Mutalisks are really good, you just need to use them more to see it.
On March 10 2010 11:33 agorist wrote: If you're letting zerg get lots of broodlords you're probably doing something wrong.
This.
Even if he gets too them the time and resources he's spending on them WILL offer you a midgame advantage were you can grab another expo or two. Being up an expo on zerg will win you the game.
People losing to broodlords are either: -bad at scouting; -not realizing the advantage they have and grabbing expansions/getting bcs/vik themselves.
Seriously what's the zerg gonna do against a midgame P or T army with a pittyfull tier 1 army or a low gas mixture of ling/muta?
I love my vikings. They are so microeable and have such range, that broodlords + corrupters should never become a problem for terran. When it comes to balance however - Broodlords are too strong and corrupters are horribly bad, as it is at the moment. If they nerf broodlord - and they have my permission - they shoud definately buff corrupters.
broodlords are far from imbalanced.... i have never seen top players in tournaments use them. Even in a 60 min zvp between dimaga and hasuobs, dimaga never used many blords cus they are just not cost efficient if ur opponent knows how to counter them. Also corruptors are a terrible unit, so I dont know who ever got the idea you got some corruptors from mid-game, nobody builds corruptors. Broodlords are only good if your opponent is being dumb and leaves himself wide open to them without having anything to counter, which is nothing but his own fault since broodlords are so damn easy to see coming from a mile away.
Today I countered broodlords beautifully with pure marines + medevac, with a group of hellions. Hellions toast the broodlings and my rines focus fire the Broodlords.
There's definitely arguments for and against broodlords being a bit of a superpower. I think it's a lot easier to counter them with zerg or terran than protoss for a start.
Other than that I think the HP is definitely too high. As I had one phoenix attacking about 5 and it took about 6 days, compared to how one wraith could kill that many guardians in a reasonable amount of time. With correct micro over a cliff I'd say they're much more effective than carriers.
This opinion may stem from my all consuming hatred of phoenix's though...
On March 10 2010 11:32 Elaeli wrote: So one thing you notice when playing against a Z is - you DIE if he gets Broodlords and you aren't massively ahead and/or fully prepared with a fleet of for example Vikings or Ravens.
Isn't that just the same as any other lategame air combo though? I mean, if a terran or protoss gets a fleet of BC's/Carriers and you aren't massively ahead or fully prepared for it, you die?
Yes, the broodlings are annoying, but I just don't think it's as 'OP' as you say.
hydras can steamroll both of those, even dustin browder knows that
but once z gets some ground stuff along with broodlords, theres no way ur gonna beat it, viking need 12 attacks to kill 1 broodlord. and by that time the vikings along with the terran ground army is dead
i hope they make broodlords cheaper and decrease the hp of them, so they can actually die by viking before the terran army is dead :<
I mean, I know I'm new here and all - but that has to be one of the worst and most biased OPs I have seen in a long time. 10 attacks at 4 damage = instant 40 damage now? Just wow. Even though the unit pathing AI is great in this game, I can assure you that barely half of the broodlings when you have 8+ brood lords actually get that many hits in. It's like you're not even TRYING to make a solid argument.
Has any T tried going Ghosts against this? Snipe + deterrent nukes might be an idea. HSM is great, keep his Hydras busy with your M&M ball (he can't really ignore it even if the brood lords are shooting you) and try to flank with your Ravens into close range of the Brood Lords before popping mass HSM. There is no way to micro away from close range HSM. And like others have said - Vikings pretty much hard counter this with their huge range. Just stay way from the Hydras while taking pot shots at the Brood Lords. Get a couple of Battle Cruisers with Yamato as well, if you can afford it.
I think the main issue here is people just wanting to stick to a certain build with little to no adaptation and alteration because it usually works so well (winning when pushing out), so when their push fails they go into the mindset of "expand until I can push again!". This is especially true when they're being kept nervous because you have mutas harrassing and scouting, making them feel like they can't really tech anything. But honestly, Mutas are mostly mind games in this game, psychological pressure, at least from my experience. Do what you need to do to hold the (few if he's going Brood Lords) mutas off while scouting. If you see Hive and no melee upgrades, you're up against Brood Lords. No Zerg in their right mind would go Ultralisks at this stage in the game, and if they are - you can be damn sure he WILL have pre-emptive melee upgrades.
So pretty much - scan, counter, hold off brood lords. It's really not as hard as some people here are making it out to be. Not to mention the vulnerability period the Zerg is in if you happen to push right between him making his first corruptors (he's NOT going to make them before the greater spire is on the way, trust me) and him morphing his first Brood Lords. His ground army at that point will get completely obliterated if you do a timing push. Especially if you've teched to HSM (though I'm not sure how viable it is getting that out in time before BLs pop. Either way, that's the timing I'm the most nervous about when I'm playing ZvT - massing my corruptors/morphing my first BLs. I just feel extremely vulnerable and have pretty much no way to stop an incoming push.
Colossi melt an infinite light infantry army and thors demolish pretty much everything too. It's harder to get broodlords though. You should have phoenix/viking by the time they have broodlords. It's also a huge gas investment to get them so they're not exactly going to have a full 200/200 army with broodlords in it before you notice unless you didn't scout at all. Is this supposed to be a thread calling broodlords imba? Yeah they're strong, they're supposed to be.
God forbid the unbeatable terran ball will have to resort to something other than A-moving
On April 15 2010 19:28 Butigroove wrote: No, the problem wiht ultralisks is that they are bad. Roach, Hydra, Ling, Baneling, even Queen are better unit options lol.
And why do they suck? Because by the time you get them the opponent has enough counter units for the already, because he needed them against roaches.
If a P or T always needed to get a number of Vikings and Void Rays to counter an earlier tech armored air unit, Brood Lords would have the same problem as Ultras. And Corruptors are not enough of a threat to justify a heavy investment into AA.
Which is the problem. Zerg are very vulnerable to air in all stages of the game. Void Rays and Vikings should be in any anti Zerg army, because if nothing else, they can always be used to hunt overlords and harass poorly guarded expansions, which Zerg also almost always have. Just by doing that, you can't be surprised by Brood Lords anymore, and make the Zerg player think twice to switch to them.
Don't think they are imba, (I play for Terran). If he starts making some Broodlords, you were doing something wrong earlier, and even if he starts making them, you can counter them with some Vikings/Curruptors/storms. Also, if he has all his BLs in 1 group, a couple of hunter seeker missiles would take care of them pretty nicely too.
Vikings / Ravens do seem like a good counter. But so far the only toss coutner that has been suggested was phoenix's. Which unless you have a fleet you may as well ask the zealots to start throwing rocks.
All those people that say that you make something wrong if you let the zerg get any broodlords. This is absolutely wrong. If you have entered a macro game where both sides have 3 or more mining bases then you surely can afford to put aside several hundred minerals and gas to get a few broodlords. There are also examples in high level play. Watching Nony's stream there was a game between machine and some good toss. Both were on 3 bases and none could break the others defense. At some point machine got 3-4 broodlords and completely steamrolled the toss.
Toss simply cannot reach the broodlords with any unit to harm them significantly. hydras under the broodlords kill instantly any air units that approach and are quite safe against any ground units toss could possibly make since the broodlings block those after two volleys from the BL. Btw toss needs 4(!) storms to kill one BL. Storm also rarely hits more than 2 BL's and zerg also normally tries to dodge. Broodlords are broken as of yet. They are hard to get in the first place, but if you get them it's nearly impossible to lose...
hydras can steamroll both of those, even dustin browder knows that
but once z gets some ground stuff along with broodlords, theres no way ur gonna beat it, viking need 12 attacks to kill 1 broodlord. and by that time the vikings along with the terran ground army is dead
i hope they make broodlords cheaper and decrease the hp of them, so they can actually die by viking before the terran army is dead :<
Hydras can deal with those yes, but that's assuming you are prepared for it and have a ton of hydras, or are massively ahead.
So one thing you notice when playing against a Z is - you DIE if he gets Broodlords and you aren't massively ahead and/or fully prepared with a fleet of for example Vikings or Ravens.
This is what I was quoting and that's what I think is just wrong, you'll be raped by most units in the game if you aren't prepared for it.
But well, as you say the combo is unstoppable, so how about posting some replays of that 'unstoppable' play then? Because so far I haven't really been in a situation where I felt Brood Lords were powerful gods that made me immortal and we all know how far all this "xx is OP, xx needs a nerf", "no it's not OP" comments gets us.
Broodlords with 2 Armored - 225 HP ( I guess ), 2 broodlings per each shot, Broodlords atm are just too strong ... They does 20 damage plus 2 broodlings -.- I'd played a game with Zerg ... owning him all the time but I'd just been defeated by 6 or 7 broodlords.
eh im not really understanding ur claim.. are you saying late game units like Broodlords, carriers, and BCs are unbalanced? Because you're making it sound like its no big deal for a zerg to be able to make BL's easily. I mean for a terran play all you have to do is watch that spire. if it goes greater then you know, BL's....then go vikings
Brood Lords spawn 1 Broodling at a time while doing 20 damage (up to 29 damage at max air attack upgrades) at 9 range and an additional 4 damage (up to 7 damage at max ground melee attack upgrades) every time a Broodling attacks and is able to store up to 2 Broodlings prior, for a cost of 200 minerals, 250 gas, 2 supply, and a build time of 73. Health-wise, it has 275 hitpoints and 2 armor.
The issues I see here are not in how powerful they are, but in how little supply cost they incur given their survivability. This means that a couple Brood Lords can also be supported by a massive ground army and be microed out of harm's way when needed. Also, the Brood Lord's damage output scales very, very well. The best tweaks to the Brood Lord, as I see it, would be to increase the supply cost of the Brood Lord to 6 and to lower damage bonus per air upgrade to +2. This way, a good way to counter Brood Lords would be to snipe Overlords, and the Zerg player is a bit more limited in how large of an army can support a certain number of Brood Lords.
The only issue I really have with Brood Lords is that they are explicitly overlapping the role of Zerglings for much less mineral cost. Especially with the absence of Dark Swarm, Zerglings have very marginal use late game and now they even have a unit that can replace them for less cost.
If your opponent has outmacroed you to such an extent that he has a critical number of broodlords (at least 3, any less are not that dangerous) and you don't have a counter, you deserve to lose. It's that simple.
Likewise, if I let a Terran or Protoss mass carriers or BCs and I don't have a huge amount of hydras or corruptors to deal with them, I deserve to lose.
The counters to a broodlord are not that difficult to get if you scout properly and see what's happening. Stalkers with blink destroy them, and well microed vikings will as well.
The Brood Lord, like any of the top tier units, is a game finisher. It's a "OK, I've contained you, beat back your army, out expanded you... and now I'm going to punish you for allowing me to do this" unit.
On April 15 2010 22:38 muzzy wrote: Stalkers with blink destroy them, and well microed vikings will as well.
The Brood Lord, like any of the top tier units, is a game finisher. It's a "OK, I've contained you, beat back your army, out expanded you... and now I'm going to punish you for allowing me to do this" unit.
100% no, what the hell are you talking about?
I'm only gonna get a carrier / BC / BL out if I've already won? Ridiculous comment. Especially in the case of broodlords where zergs can often come back from losing to get a win.
I'd say vikings are quite affective, with their range, but clearly you've never actually tried to kill broodlords with stalkers and blink. A) Broodlings will screw stalkers over badly, pretty much the worst unit toss wants vs broodlings. B) A remotely competant zerg will use broodlords with cliffs or edges (scrap station) so blink won't help you there.
People have said toss counters are phoenix / blink stalkers / storms (lol), all of which are really inaffective counters even when microed well.
On April 15 2010 22:38 muzzy wrote: Stalkers with blink destroy them, and well microed vikings will as well.
The Brood Lord, like any of the top tier units, is a game finisher. It's a "OK, I've contained you, beat back your army, out expanded you... and now I'm going to punish you for allowing me to do this" unit.
100% no, what the hell are you talking about?
I'm only gonna get a carrier / BC / BL out if I've already won? Ridiculous comment. Especially in the case of broodlords where zergs can often come back from losing to get a win.
I'd say vikings are quite affective, with their range, but clearly you've never actually tried to kill broodlords with stalkers and blink. A) Broodlings will screw stalkers over badly, pretty much the worst unit toss wants vs broodlings. B) A remotely competant zerg will use broodlords with cliffs or edges (scrap station) so blink won't help you there.
People have said toss counters are phoenix / blink stalkers / storms (lol), all of which are really inaffective counters even when microed well.
You know what, you're right, there are no counters to a Broodlord :\
Storm are not a counter, phoenix *may* be ok, but I stand by the fact that blink stalkers when played well will dominate BL. Obviously there are times when you can't reach the BL, but they have to have some strength.
Brood Lords are not easy to get... as a Zerg, I have almost no reason to tech to hive aside from BL. So, it requires the tech to hive, upgrade greater spire, and then building Corruptors which I almost never need as well. It requires a substantial investment.
The only matchup I use them often in is Terran, as they tend to hole up and defend, especially as I start to take map control. BL are the perfect siege unit to deal with that kind of play.
I honestly have only managed to get BL out against toss a few times, so I don't know what you're doing wrong vs Z that it's such a problem. A good Toss player is pressuring me so heavily that I'm never able to tech up to that point. You scout hive, you know he's going BL, so get the units to deal with it. He should be down economically while teching, and if he's not, he would have won through other means anyhow.
On April 15 2010 17:26 DrivE wrote: The scary thing about broodlords imo is that they can spawn more and more units without any additional resources from the zerg, and that the broodlings just take up so much damage =/
Broodlings do deal so much damage. You really really need armor upgrades vs them else they will tear you to shreds. I think Broodlings get +1 from upgrades, personally I feel that they shouldn't. However, with the current state of melee units atleast Zergs tend not to get melee unpgrades. So yea, without the +3 armor those broodlings are going to be hitting you repeatedly for 4 damage and that really really hurts.
As a protoss to really counter Broodlords I think you need stalkers (with +3 armor, at the very least) with blink and if they are using them offensively, a Mothership. Motherships are invaluable defensive units lategame imo and a vortex can be incredibly useful in stopping the roaches/hydra from hitting your stalkers while you quickly dispatch the broodlords.
It's not easy, but this is what I currently do vs Broodlords.
On April 15 2010 22:22 TyrantGuardian wrote: Banshees do 24 damage, oh my GOD!?!?
1. Banshees do 12x2 damage; I hope you know the difference between 12x2 and 24 damage 2. Broodlords do 20 + broodlings 3. You may want to look at broodlords' range
I agree with OP. They need to be nerfed but not the unit itself, just the build time, morphing especially.
Anyway; What I do as Terran against Broodlords so I don't get raped so hard Bio - Even or better map control 1. Dodge them. Yes dodge them. You don't have to fight them unless they are in your base. Just incase build some vikings. 2. Be the aggressor. You have to strike before broodlords are in your base. What you have to do is move your troops to middle of the map, force the broodlords to engage, then run to the enemy base stimming and sniping hatches. The worst case scenario is a base race (Terran can lift off =_=) and a better scenario is that the enemy player pulls back and you fight the enemy without broodlords (they will be still in the middle of the map, they are slow) If broodlords stay in base, expand starve the zerg. Do hellion drops, thor drops whatever. Nuke would be good too in this case. If Zerg is being too aggressive build more vikings.
Bio - Zerg map control 1. Build Vikings around 3 per broodlord present 2. If enemy players masses hydra to support the broodlords type "gg wp, building broodlords is a good skill to have" or just "gg wp"
Mech - Even or better map control 1. Build Vikings around 3 per broodlord present 2. If enemy players masses hydra to support the broodlords, point and laugh at the zerg player and watch hydras melt away. Then move your vikings and watch broodlords run like crabs. If enemy masses roaches, built more marauders and just use vikings right away. If combination of roaches and hydras, marauders:mech ratio should match the combination, and watch for viking timing window.
Mech - Zerg map control Do same as even or better map control and pray your micro is good enough.
What I do as Protoss against Broodlords so I don't get raped so hard Stalkers with blink
If muta + broodlords type "gg"
Do not build vrays or phoenixes hydras will rape them. Though I want to try mass mass phoenixes against hydra + broodlords. At least for micro practice.
Side note: I just wish they change the build time Broodlords build time 40+34 = 74 BC 110 Carriers 120 * 2/3 (chrono boost) = 80
Broodlords build faster than stargates on steroids. Something is very wrong there. Very very wrong indeed.
thank you wire you're totally right, not only what you said but I also add that, in a mere second more FREE infinitely spawning units are added to the battle, which like I said earlier create a wall so you cant run in and snipe from ground...
something just popped to mind though, how much damage does the ghosts snipe ability do?
How about we let Zerg only fight with larva? That would teach them.
On a more serious note, broodlords have hard counters (air) and soft counters (abose the fact that they are slow). So, considering the prize and tech tree the zerg has to pay for, I would say that it's quite a balanced unit.
On April 15 2010 23:33 Broodie wrote: thank you wire you're totally right, not only what you said but I also add that, in a mere second more FREE infinitely spawning units are added to the battle, which like I said earlier create a wall so you cant run in and snipe from ground...
something just popped to mind though, how much damage does the ghosts snipe ability do?
Seriously? Something just popped into your head?
So you came here yelling for a nerf to BLs without even trying everything to counter them.
I mean, I don't know if BLs are imbalanced, but obviously neither do you.
Broodlords are a powerful unit, no doubts. Getting to this stage can be troublesome if playing against an aggressive player, but if there is turtling involved, go for it. I did my placement matches last night, and I was able to get broodlords on both games that I randomed zerg. I almost felt sorry for my opponents, they would have some stalkers or a few vikings, and my massive swarm of corrupters and 5-6 BL's would block out the sky and completely decimate everything in about 30 seconds. Corruptors are also good because they have "corrupt" or whatever it is, which shuts down buildings which are producing units, or you can use it on a planetary fortress and it shuts the guns down, allowing your broodlings to eat the buildings quicker.
They can be owned though, by an air force of equal size. I came up against a massive fleet of vikings and my entire first wave of BL's and corruptors went down, but I had more producing so I won by attrition. They arent imba, but they are really good.
All the higher-level games I've seen with Zerg make me think that it's a fairly difficult trek to Hive tech, much less Broodlords, specifically against Terran.
Let's play a game. 3 Brood Lords: 300/250 each. 900/750 Total 12 Hydralisks: 100/50 each. 1200/600 Total 2100/1350 Total. Name a Protoss army that costs less than or equal to this amount that will beat this army, assume full upgrades and good micro on both sides. You can convert minerals to gas in 2-1 and vice versa. You can even use more than 2 unit types. Alternatively, name a Protoss army consisting of two types of units and I will name the Zerg counter. If you want to include Carriers, note interceptor cost.
On April 15 2010 23:58 Ecrilon wrote: Let's play a game. 3 Brood Lords: 300/250 each. 900/750 Total 12 Hydralisks: 100/50 each. 1200/600 Total 2100/1350 Total. Name a Protoss army that costs less than or equal to this amount that will beat this army, assume full upgrades and good micro on both sides. You can convert minerals to gas in 2-1 and vice versa. You can even use more than 2 unit types. Alternatively, name a Protoss army consisting of two types of units and I will name the Zerg counter. If you want to include Carriers, note interceptor cost.
I'm not sure how many it would buy but I agree with previous posters: stalkers with blink walk all over broodlords... What's the evidence against that?
On April 15 2010 23:58 Ecrilon wrote: Let's play a game. 3 Brood Lords: 300/250 each. 900/750 Total 12 Hydralisks: 100/50 each. 1200/600 Total 2100/1350 Total. Name a Protoss army that costs less than or equal to this amount that will beat this army, assume full upgrades and good micro on both sides. You can convert minerals to gas in 2-1 and vice versa. You can even use more than 2 unit types. Alternatively, name a Protoss army consisting of two types of units and I will name the Zerg counter. If you want to include Carriers, note interceptor cost.
10 zealots (with charge): 100/0 each. 1000/0 Total 10 Stalkers (with blink): 125/50 each. 1250/500 Total 2250/500 Total (thats 850 gas les, so throw in 8 extra zealots if u wanna even out the total cost).
On April 15 2010 23:58 Ecrilon wrote: Let's play a game. 3 Brood Lords: 300/250 each. 900/750 Total 12 Hydralisks: 100/50 each. 1200/600 Total 2100/1350 Total. Name a Protoss army that costs less than or equal to this amount that will beat this army, assume full upgrades and good micro on both sides. You can convert minerals to gas in 2-1 and vice versa. You can even use more than 2 unit types. Alternatively, name a Protoss army consisting of two types of units and I will name the Zerg counter. If you want to include Carriers, note interceptor cost.
Diehilde's suggestion works very well.
I was going to suggest:
1000m 600g - 4 Void Rays 1000m - 10 Zealots 100m 300g - 2 High Templar
Total: 2100m 900g
10 Charge-upgraded Zealots and 2 High Templar with storms is more than enough to slaughter 12 Hydralisks - they'll be dead faster than they can kill four Void Rays, and then you can simply run the Protoss ground force away. Brood Lords are too slow to escape from Void Rays.
I wonder if the problem really is the BL themselves or the broodlings. I think that the problem is the broodlings. Broodlings should die to any one attack or the equivalent, have a hp of 6. That way well micro players can keep down the number of broodlings. 6 hp, means that with +1 carapace, marines cannot 1 shot the broodlings. I think that would be a good relationship. Broodlings should punish the player who does not micro against them, but should fall very fast to fire/aoe.
First case: Ten Stalkers with Blink do 120 damage. They take, minimally, 3 volleys to down ONE Brood Lord (275, so even three doesn't take it down really). Meanwhile, Broodlings are messing with your Zealot Charge AI, and since your Stalkers are apparently PAST the Broodling line due to Blink, the Hydras have taken to attacking them. Your Stalkers are not coming out of this alive. At least one Brood Lord is.
Second case: Hydras and Brood Lords are right next to each other. Brood Lords attack Zealots, making sure that they can't even close with Hydras without taking massive damage. If Void Rays attempt to engage Brood Lords, Hydras attack Void Rays. Storms with their now laughable radius make dodging a very reasonable response for Hydralisks. Zerg essentially moves army backward as Templars run out of energy, leaving the broodlings to deal with chasing zealots. Note that Brood Lord range is 9, Void Ray range is 7. If the Brood Lords are attacking the zealots, the Void Rays are in front of the Zealots, making them easy targets for Hydralisks (Range 6). This seems like a fair fight because of the Void Ray's ability. Depending on micro, Void Rays could do well against Brood Lord Hydra, if you could only figure out how to deal with the Hydras supported by broodlings.
All of these cost comparisons are not including the cost of getting the tech for broodlords, which is the longest most expensive tech path in the game. Everyone I've seen complaining about them is trying to beat them with a ground army, which, while it can be done, that's like saying colossus is OP because of how badly it rapes all zerg ground, or how 10 tanks in siege on a cliff can't be killed with ground. we KNOW this, you have to use something else to break in.
EPT
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