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On April 15 2010 18:26 Ighox wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2010 11:32 Elaeli wrote:
So one thing you notice when playing against a Z is - you DIE if he gets Broodlords and you aren't massively ahead and/or fully prepared with a fleet of for example Vikings or Ravens.
Isn't that just the same as any other lategame air combo though? I mean, if a terran or protoss gets a fleet of BC's/Carriers and you aren't massively ahead or fully prepared for it, you die? Yes, the broodlings are annoying, but I just don't think it's as 'OP' as you say.
hydras can steamroll both of those, even dustin browder knows that
but once z gets some ground stuff along with broodlords, theres no way ur gonna beat it, viking need 12 attacks to kill 1 broodlord. and by that time the vikings along with the terran ground army is dead
i hope they make broodlords cheaper and decrease the hp of them, so they can actually die by viking before the terran army is dead :<
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I mean, I know I'm new here and all - but that has to be one of the worst and most biased OPs I have seen in a long time. 10 attacks at 4 damage = instant 40 damage now? Just wow. Even though the unit pathing AI is great in this game, I can assure you that barely half of the broodlings when you have 8+ brood lords actually get that many hits in. It's like you're not even TRYING to make a solid argument.
Has any T tried going Ghosts against this? Snipe + deterrent nukes might be an idea. HSM is great, keep his Hydras busy with your M&M ball (he can't really ignore it even if the brood lords are shooting you) and try to flank with your Ravens into close range of the Brood Lords before popping mass HSM. There is no way to micro away from close range HSM. And like others have said - Vikings pretty much hard counter this with their huge range. Just stay way from the Hydras while taking pot shots at the Brood Lords. Get a couple of Battle Cruisers with Yamato as well, if you can afford it.
I think the main issue here is people just wanting to stick to a certain build with little to no adaptation and alteration because it usually works so well (winning when pushing out), so when their push fails they go into the mindset of "expand until I can push again!". This is especially true when they're being kept nervous because you have mutas harrassing and scouting, making them feel like they can't really tech anything. But honestly, Mutas are mostly mind games in this game, psychological pressure, at least from my experience. Do what you need to do to hold the (few if he's going Brood Lords) mutas off while scouting. If you see Hive and no melee upgrades, you're up against Brood Lords. No Zerg in their right mind would go Ultralisks at this stage in the game, and if they are - you can be damn sure he WILL have pre-emptive melee upgrades.
So pretty much - scan, counter, hold off brood lords. It's really not as hard as some people here are making it out to be. Not to mention the vulnerability period the Zerg is in if you happen to push right between him making his first corruptors (he's NOT going to make them before the greater spire is on the way, trust me) and him morphing his first Brood Lords. His ground army at that point will get completely obliterated if you do a timing push. Especially if you've teched to HSM (though I'm not sure how viable it is getting that out in time before BLs pop. Either way, that's the timing I'm the most nervous about when I'm playing ZvT - massing my corruptors/morphing my first BLs. I just feel extremely vulnerable and have pretty much no way to stop an incoming push.
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Colossi melt an infinite light infantry army and thors demolish pretty much everything too. It's harder to get broodlords though. You should have phoenix/viking by the time they have broodlords. It's also a huge gas investment to get them so they're not exactly going to have a full 200/200 army with broodlords in it before you notice unless you didn't scout at all. Is this supposed to be a thread calling broodlords imba? Yeah they're strong, they're supposed to be.
God forbid the unbeatable terran ball will have to resort to something other than A-moving
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On April 15 2010 19:28 Butigroove wrote:
No, the problem wiht ultralisks is that they are bad. Roach, Hydra, Ling, Baneling, even Queen are better unit options lol.
And why do they suck? Because by the time you get them the opponent has enough counter units for the already, because he needed them against roaches.
If a P or T always needed to get a number of Vikings and Void Rays to counter an earlier tech armored air unit, Brood Lords would have the same problem as Ultras. And Corruptors are not enough of a threat to justify a heavy investment into AA.
Which is the problem. Zerg are very vulnerable to air in all stages of the game. Void Rays and Vikings should be in any anti Zerg army, because if nothing else, they can always be used to hunt overlords and harass poorly guarded expansions, which Zerg also almost always have. Just by doing that, you can't be surprised by Brood Lords anymore, and make the Zerg player think twice to switch to them.
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Don't think they are imba, (I play for Terran). If he starts making some Broodlords, you were doing something wrong earlier, and even if he starts making them, you can counter them with some Vikings/Curruptors/storms. Also, if he has all his BLs in 1 group, a couple of hunter seeker missiles would take care of them pretty nicely too.
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Vikings / Ravens do seem like a good counter. But so far the only toss coutner that has been suggested was phoenix's. Which unless you have a fleet you may as well ask the zealots to start throwing rocks.
Old phoenix:
![[image loading]](http://agoners.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/starcraft2.jpg)
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All those people that say that you make something wrong if you let the zerg get any broodlords. This is absolutely wrong. If you have entered a macro game where both sides have 3 or more mining bases then you surely can afford to put aside several hundred minerals and gas to get a few broodlords.
There are also examples in high level play. Watching Nony's stream there was a game between machine and some good toss. Both were on 3 bases and none could break the others defense. At some point machine got 3-4 broodlords and completely steamrolled the toss.
Toss simply cannot reach the broodlords with any unit to harm them significantly. hydras under the broodlords kill instantly any air units that approach and are quite safe against any ground units toss could possibly make since the broodlings block those after two volleys from the BL. Btw toss needs 4(!) storms to kill one BL. Storm also rarely hits more than 2 BL's and zerg also normally tries to dodge.
Broodlords are broken as of yet. They are hard to get in the first place, but if you get them it's nearly impossible to lose...
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On April 15 2010 21:03 MorroW wrote:
hydras can steamroll both of those, even dustin browder knows that
but once z gets some ground stuff along with broodlords, theres no way ur gonna beat it, viking need 12 attacks to kill 1 broodlord. and by that time the vikings along with the terran ground army is dead
i hope they make broodlords cheaper and decrease the hp of them, so they can actually die by viking before the terran army is dead :<
Hydras can deal with those yes, but that's assuming you are prepared for it and have a ton of hydras, or are massively ahead.
So one thing you notice when playing against a Z is - you DIE if he gets Broodlords and you aren't massively ahead and/or fully prepared with a fleet of for example Vikings or Ravens.
This is what I was quoting and that's what I think is just wrong, you'll be raped by most units in the game if you aren't prepared for it.
But well, as you say the combo is unstoppable, so how about posting some replays of that 'unstoppable' play then? Because so far I haven't really been in a situation where I felt Brood Lords were powerful gods that made me immortal and we all know how far all this "xx is OP, xx needs a nerf", "no it's not OP" comments gets us.
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Broodlords with 2 Armored - 225 HP ( I guess ), 2 broodlings per each shot, Broodlords atm are just too strong ... They does 20 damage plus 2 broodlings -.-
I'd played a game with Zerg ... owning him all the time but I'd just been defeated by 6 or 7 broodlords.
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Banshees do 24 damage, oh my GOD!?!?
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eh im not really understanding ur claim.. are you saying late game units like Broodlords, carriers, and BCs are unbalanced? Because you're making it sound like its no big deal for a zerg to be able to make BL's easily. I mean for a terran play all you have to do is watch that spire. if it goes greater then you know, BL's....then go vikings
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Brood Lords spawn 1 Broodling at a time while doing 20 damage (up to 29 damage at max air attack upgrades) at 9 range and an additional 4 damage (up to 7 damage at max ground melee attack upgrades) every time a Broodling attacks and is able to store up to 2 Broodlings prior, for a cost of 200 minerals, 250 gas, 2 supply, and a build time of 73. Health-wise, it has 275 hitpoints and 2 armor.
The issues I see here are not in how powerful they are, but in how little supply cost they incur given their survivability. This means that a couple Brood Lords can also be supported by a massive ground army and be microed out of harm's way when needed. Also, the Brood Lord's damage output scales very, very well. The best tweaks to the Brood Lord, as I see it, would be to increase the supply cost of the Brood Lord to 6 and to lower damage bonus per air upgrade to +2. This way, a good way to counter Brood Lords would be to snipe Overlords, and the Zerg player is a bit more limited in how large of an army can support a certain number of Brood Lords.
The only issue I really have with Brood Lords is that they are explicitly overlapping the role of Zerglings for much less mineral cost. Especially with the absence of Dark Swarm, Zerglings have very marginal use late game and now they even have a unit that can replace them for less cost.
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If your opponent has outmacroed you to such an extent that he has a critical number of broodlords (at least 3, any less are not that dangerous) and you don't have a counter, you deserve to lose. It's that simple.
Likewise, if I let a Terran or Protoss mass carriers or BCs and I don't have a huge amount of hydras or corruptors to deal with them, I deserve to lose.
The counters to a broodlord are not that difficult to get if you scout properly and see what's happening.
Stalkers with blink destroy them, and well microed vikings will as well.
The Brood Lord, like any of the top tier units, is a game finisher. It's a "OK, I've contained you, beat back your army, out expanded you... and now I'm going to punish you for allowing me to do this" unit.
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On April 15 2010 22:38 muzzy wrote:
Stalkers with blink destroy them, and well microed vikings will as well.
The Brood Lord, like any of the top tier units, is a game finisher. It's a "OK, I've contained you, beat back your army, out expanded you... and now I'm going to punish you for allowing me to do this" unit.
100% no, what the hell are you talking about?
I'm only gonna get a carrier / BC / BL out if I've already won? Ridiculous comment. Especially in the case of broodlords where zergs can often come back from losing to get a win.
I'd say vikings are quite affective, with their range, but clearly you've never actually tried to kill broodlords with stalkers and blink. A) Broodlings will screw stalkers over badly, pretty much the worst unit toss wants vs broodlings. B) A remotely competant zerg will use broodlords with cliffs or edges (scrap station) so blink won't help you there.
People have said toss counters are phoenix / blink stalkers / storms (lol), all of which are really inaffective counters even when microed well.
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On April 15 2010 23:11 Tone_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 22:38 muzzy wrote:
Stalkers with blink destroy them, and well microed vikings will as well.
The Brood Lord, like any of the top tier units, is a game finisher. It's a "OK, I've contained you, beat back your army, out expanded you... and now I'm going to punish you for allowing me to do this" unit.
100% no, what the hell are you talking about? I'm only gonna get a carrier / BC / BL out if I've already won? Ridiculous comment. Especially in the case of broodlords where zergs can often come back from losing to get a win. I'd say vikings are quite affective, with their range, but clearly you've never actually tried to kill broodlords with stalkers and blink. A) Broodlings will screw stalkers over badly, pretty much the worst unit toss wants vs broodlings. B) A remotely competant zerg will use broodlords with cliffs or edges (scrap station) so blink won't help you there. People have said toss counters are phoenix / blink stalkers / storms (lol), all of which are really inaffective counters even when microed well.
You know what, you're right, there are no counters to a Broodlord :\
Storm are not a counter, phoenix *may* be ok, but I stand by the fact that blink stalkers when played well will dominate BL.
Obviously there are times when you can't reach the BL, but they have to have some strength.
Brood Lords are not easy to get... as a Zerg, I have almost no reason to tech to hive aside from BL. So, it requires the tech to hive, upgrade greater spire, and then building Corruptors which I almost never need as well. It requires a substantial investment.
The only matchup I use them often in is Terran, as they tend to hole up and defend, especially as I start to take map control. BL are the perfect siege unit to deal with that kind of play.
I honestly have only managed to get BL out against toss a few times, so I don't know what you're doing wrong vs Z that it's such a problem. A good Toss player is pressuring me so heavily that I'm never able to tech up to that point. You scout hive, you know he's going BL, so get the units to deal with it. He should be down economically while teching, and if he's not, he would have won through other means anyhow.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 15 2010 17:30 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 17:26 DrivE wrote:
The scary thing about broodlords imo is that they can spawn more and more units without any additional resources from the zerg, and that the broodlings just take up so much damage =/ Broodlings do deal so much damage. You really really need armor upgrades vs them else they will tear you to shreds. I think Broodlings get +1 from upgrades, personally I feel that they shouldn't. However, with the current state of melee units atleast Zergs tend not to get melee unpgrades. So yea, without the +3 armor those broodlings are going to be hitting you repeatedly for 4 damage and that really really hurts. As a protoss to really counter Broodlords I think you need stalkers (with +3 armor, at the very least) with blink and if they are using them offensively, a Mothership. Motherships are invaluable defensive units lategame imo and a vortex can be incredibly useful in stopping the roaches/hydra from hitting your stalkers while you quickly dispatch the broodlords.
It's not easy, but this is what I currently do vs Broodlords.
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On April 15 2010 22:22 TyrantGuardian wrote:
Banshees do 24 damage, oh my GOD!?!?
1. Banshees do 12x2 damage; I hope you know the difference between 12x2 and 24 damage
2. Broodlords do 20 + broodlings
3. You may want to look at broodlords' range
I agree with OP. They need to be nerfed but not the unit itself, just the build time, morphing especially.
Anyway;
What I do as Terran against Broodlords so I don't get raped so hard
Bio - Even or better map control
1. Dodge them. Yes dodge them. You don't have to fight them unless they are in your base. Just incase build some vikings.
2. Be the aggressor. You have to strike before broodlords are in your base. What you have to do is move your troops to middle of the map, force the broodlords to engage, then run to the enemy base stimming and sniping hatches. The worst case scenario is a base race (Terran can lift off =_=) and a better scenario is that the enemy player pulls back and you fight the enemy without broodlords (they will be still in the middle of the map, they are slow)
If broodlords stay in base, expand starve the zerg. Do hellion drops, thor drops whatever. Nuke would be good too in this case. If Zerg is being too aggressive build more vikings.
Bio - Zerg map control
1. Build Vikings around 3 per broodlord present
2. If enemy players masses hydra to support the broodlords type "gg wp, building broodlords is a good skill to have" or just "gg wp"
Mech - Even or better map control
1. Build Vikings around 3 per broodlord present
2. If enemy players masses hydra to support the broodlords, point and laugh at the zerg player and watch hydras melt away. Then move your vikings and watch broodlords run like crabs. If enemy masses roaches, built more marauders and just use vikings right away. If combination of roaches and hydras, marauders:mech ratio should match the combination, and watch for viking timing window.
Mech - Zerg map control
Do same as even or better map control and pray your micro is good enough.
What I do as Protoss against Broodlords so I don't get raped so hard
Stalkers with blink
If muta + broodlords
type "gg"
Do not build vrays or phoenixes hydras will rape them.
Though I want to try mass mass phoenixes against hydra + broodlords. At least for micro practice.
Side note:
I just wish they change the build time
Broodlords build time 40+34 = 74
BC 110
Carriers 120 * 2/3 (chrono boost) = 80
Broodlords build faster than stargates on steroids. Something is very wrong there. Very very wrong indeed.
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thank you wire you're totally right, not only what you said but I also add that, in a mere second more FREE infinitely spawning units are added to the battle, which like I said earlier create a wall so you cant run in and snipe from ground...
something just popped to mind though, how much damage does the ghosts snipe ability do?
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How about we let Zerg only fight with larva? That would teach them.
On a more serious note, broodlords have hard counters (air) and soft counters (abose the fact that they are slow). So, considering the prize and tech tree the zerg has to pay for, I would say that it's quite a balanced unit.
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Using OP's broodling logic, a zealot deals infinite damage because it doesn't have a timer.
Therefore, zealots are overpowered.
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EPT
