EPT[MSL] QuarterFinals Day 3 - Page 74
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Promises
Netherlands1821 Posts
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
On August 05 2009 07:06 B1nary wrote: Even if he does, can you honestly say with 100% certainty that he's the favourite in a series against Bisu? There's no doubt that Jaedong's very very good, but he still looks mortal. When Savior was bonjwa, there was no doubt that he would win, regardless of opponent or map. And yet, during his dominance, he only won one OSL. If there was no doubt that he would win, how did he keep losing OSLs? If he was so dominant, why didn't CJ win the Proleague title under his reign? If OZ wins the finals with a Jaedong-lead beatdown, and Jaedong takes the OSL and MSL, how can you really question it? The only way he could have been more dominant is if he also took GOM (which, I would point out, he did get to the Ro8 in). | ||
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Titusmaster6
United States5937 Posts
 My shitty day is resolved. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36402 Posts
On August 05 2009 08:13 NicolBolas wrote: And yet, during his dominance, he only won one OSL. If there was no doubt that he would win, how did he keep losing OSLs? If he was so dominant, why didn't CJ win the Proleague title under his reign? If OZ wins the finals with a Jaedong-lead beatdown, and Jaedong takes the OSL and MSL, how can you really question it? The only way he could have been more dominant is if he also took GOM (which, I would point out, he did get to the Ro8 in). Savior won the first OSL he qualified for then was immediately beaten by Bisu in MSL and slumped hard. He won three MSLs before qualifying for his first OSL because he couldn't pass OSL offline prelims for quite some time. Anyone who watches progaming and understands the structure of the leagues knows its much, much easier to qualify once and stay qualified than it is to come from offlines. The offline prelims are hellish affairs, where you have to play several Bo3s against all three races over the course of one or two days. It's insane, and many pros fail at that stage. A lot of pros say that how good they are is directly proportionate to how much they can practice -- for example everyone says Jaedong is the hardest worker and most determined. Can you imagine having to play 4+ Bo3s in a single day that you can't really practice for, against all three races and against undetermined opponents who are all bent on cheesing you? Stork failed the offline prelims because his opponent four pooled in 2/3 games. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On August 05 2009 08:13 NicolBolas wrote: Um...Savior never qualified for an osl because he had problems in the qualifiers. In actual matches he dominated. You also have to realize this was a time where the maps were so utterly anti zerg that, well, Jaedong would have never won a game to say the least.And yet, during his dominance, he only won one OSL. If there was no doubt that he would win, how did he keep losing OSLs? If he was so dominant, why didn't CJ win the Proleague title under his reign? If OZ wins the finals with a Jaedong-lead beatdown, and Jaedong takes the OSL and MSL, how can you really question it? The only way he could have been more dominant is if he also took GOM (which, I would point out, he did get to the Ro8 in). And being a bonjwa isnt about the amount of leagues you win, its in what fashion you win them. Jaedong does not dominate when he wins, outside of zvz. No ones mouths are left open in shock when he beats off a push. His zvt and zvp are strong, aggressive, but not AMAZING like other Bonjwa's match up's were. Jaedong is a winner, not a destroyer. And he will never be a bonjwa until he destroys leagues. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8556 Posts
JD won both his OSLs and MSL all the way from offline qualifiers. "the maps were so utterly anti zerg that, well, Jaedong would have never won a game to say the least." Arena MSL, besides, that is opinion. Last paragraph is pure opinion. The crux of Savior's career is that he achieved many of his medals in a short time span, but as a whole, JD is quickly catching up. | ||
disciple
9071 Posts
On August 05 2009 05:36 B1nary wrote: I've noticed this too. He does seem to be on the receiving end of epic games and weird strats more often than expected. Any idea why? Pure coincidence? I assume part of it is because he's good but Jaedong/Flash/fantasy don't seem to have that problem. sadly thou this is absolutely right - in long term Bisu will be remembered with the epic games he lost... vs ChRh , YellOw, Jaedong, Flash etc.  With Jaedong, its not the case, he either wins or loses badly and we as spectators just forget it happened and move on. The only long epic game that Jaedong lost, which comes on top of my mind is his first encounter with Bisu on Andromeda | ||
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[X]Ken_D
United States4653 Posts
On August 04 2009 19:32 Naib wrote: Who cares who does it? These threads are for nothing else than spamming your post count up, there's literally 0 substance in most posts in the LR threads. It used to be different, and I miss those times. I miss the old days where there are more analyzing of the strategies. Now it is 5 pages of rabid fandom before the game even begins then another 5 pages after it is over. Most of which hardly touch the surface of the strategies being used. Make an analysis of why you think the match played out like it did and you get refuted by "LOL. DID YOU WATCH THE GAME?", "IT'S MSL/GOM. ITS NOT IMPORTANT TO THEM," or lately popular "HE THREW THE GAME." It's ridiculous. Full of sheeps. | ||
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cunninglinguists
United States925 Posts
edit: iris  | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On August 05 2009 08:13 NicolBolas wrote: And yet, during his dominance, he only won one OSL. If there was no doubt that he would win, how did he keep losing OSLs? If he was so dominant, why didn't CJ win the Proleague title under his reign? If OZ wins the finals with a Jaedong-lead beatdown, and Jaedong takes the OSL and MSL, how can you really question it? The only way he could have been more dominant is if he also took GOM (which, I would point out, he did get to the Ro8 in). Hi. You must be new to Starcraft or else you would know and understand just how thoroughly Savior dominated the game. You must be new to Starcraft or else you would understand just how pathetically bad Zerg was doing against Terran before Savior showed up. July and Gorush were slumping. Nobody seemed able to step up and fill in. Even Chojja, the other "great Zerg" of Savior's era struggled to overcome the top Terrans. NaDa fell. Oov fell. Midas fell. Nal_ra fell. Kingdom fell. Everyone who was anybody fell. The only person who seemed able to fight Savior on even ground was Chojja in ZvZ and Chojja was supposedly number one in the world in that match-up (and Savior had the winning record against Chojja...). And while you may point to Proleague, there wasn't a winner's league back then and CJ was arguably a worse team overall than OZ is (with an "I can win or lose against literally anybody" BackHo and decent snipers in the forms of Hiya and Lomo -- OZ is a stronger team than people give it credit for, which is why they can win BO7's in the playoffs, and why they actually have a shot at taking down SKT-1 if everyone plays their best on day 1). And while you point to GOM, back then Savior In order for me to feel like Jaedong has surpassed Savior, he will need to win 2 of the 3 leagues he is in (OSL, MSL, PL). If he does that, then I may consent to acknowledging that he's perservered and made it. But even so, he's only now starting to attain that aura of untouchability that Savior had in his prime. By the way, for those people who commented about JD royal roading and all... should I remind you of how pathetic he looked against Protoss back during OSC? Losing to Rock?!?!?! JD's first OSL run was anything but convincing. It wasn't until around the time that he won MSL that he seemed to have stepped up his ZvP game. In fact I recall him being less than 50% wins vs Protoss at the time of his OSL win. So then you rag on Savior for offline prelims? >_> History could have been very different if Jaedong had to play against Bisu or even Free (who JD has a losing record against even today!). It's not that the OSL win was somehow meaningless, but that there was a completely diifferent feeling than when Savior marched through every fucking single one of the best vs Z players of his day. | ||
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mel_ee
2450 Posts
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Athos
United States2484 Posts
On August 05 2009 08:43 disciple wrote: sadly thou this is absolutely right - in long term Bisu will be remembered with the epic games he lost... vs ChRh , YellOw, Jaedong, Flash etc. With Jaedong, its not the case, he either wins or loses badly and we as spectators just forget it happened and move on. The only long epic game that Jaedong lost, which comes on top of my mind is his first encounter with Bisu on Andromeda I like how Bisu fans suddenly become emo when Bisu loses a series 2:3. It's not over for the guy, he still has the 2nd highest ELO in progamming is the greatest protoss player of all time. A loss to Iris is not going to take that away. You're right in that it's difficult to think of epic games when thinking of Bisu because he's the 2nd best player in the world right now. When Bisu wins he just rolls over people usually. However there are some very epic games he's played (and won) for instance: Bisu: Savior (won 3:0) Bisu v. Jaedong andromedia or heartbreak ridge Bisu v. Stork (5th game in particular) Bisu v. Hwasin- there's a lot of really good ones between them Also, the idea of an epic game is all relative to the beholder. If you mean a long drawn out game than GG-play vs. Stork can count as an epic game. However, that shouldn't be the only criteria for declaring something epic. Stork vs. GG-play had lots of fail moments on both sides, and many people don't think that game is epic at all. Bisu's games vs. ChRh and Yellow would not be epic besides the fact that Bisu is Bisu! It's only epic because its a massive upset by ChRh and Yellow. Also, his games to Flash are dominated by cheese. You can argue that it's epic cheese, but I don't consider that epic in my book. B Bisu himself pulls off plenty of epic cheese himself (I'm thinking of that game where he had an in-base proxy gates behind a mineral line). Also jaedong has lost epic games as well: Jaedong vs. Flash (Basically every game between these is epic, but a lot of them are epic win by Flash). Jaedong vs. Sea @ Andromeda (an epic 45 minute tvz) Jaedong vs. Free (well, I thought it was an epic game anyways). I also think that Jaedong seems to play more 'epic' games because he plays zerg. Zerg will always be known for its flare, precession, and finesse. Just remember, Bisu v. Savior will always be remembered as epic because nobody expect Bisu to win and he won in dramatic fashion. | ||
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GGQ
Canada2653 Posts
But I've noticed before, and I'll say it again, that Bisu loses too many of those epic games for my liking. I still really enjoyed the series versus Iris, but it's a hard choice whether I'd rather have this morning's games or some less exciting games where Bisu advanced. I guess I'll take the games that Bisu gives me. That's what made me his fan after all. I guess my view might be kind of slanted, because I only really became a Bisu fan during his epic loss to Flash back in OSL like a year and a half ago. | ||
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EvoChamber
France2505 Posts
On August 05 2009 09:13 Mortality wrote: Hi. You must be new to Starcraft or else you would know and understand just how thoroughly Savior dominated the game. You must be new to Starcraft or else you would understand just how pathetically bad Zerg was doing against Terran before Savior showed up. July and Gorush were slumping. Nobody seemed able to step up and fill in. Even Chojja, the other "great Zerg" of Savior's era struggled to overcome the top Terrans. NaDa fell. Oov fell. Midas fell. Nal_ra fell. Kingdom fell. Everyone who was anybody fell. The only person who seemed able to fight Savior on even ground was Chojja in ZvZ and Chojja was supposedly number one in the world in that match-up (and Savior had the winning record against Chojja...). And while you may point to Proleague, there wasn't a winner's league back then and CJ was arguably a worse team overall than OZ is (with an "I can win or lose against literally anybody" BackHo and decent snipers in the forms of Hiya and Lomo -- OZ is a stronger team than people give it credit for, which is why they can win BO7's in the playoffs, and why they actually have a shot at taking down SKT-1 if everyone plays their best on day 1). And while you point to GOM, back then Savior In order for me to feel like Jaedong has surpassed Savior, he will need to win 2 of the 3 leagues he is in (OSL, MSL, PL). If he does that, then I may consent to acknowledging that he's perservered and made it. But even so, he's only now starting to attain that aura of untouchability that Savior had in his prime. By the way, for those people who commented about JD royal roading and all... should I remind you of how pathetic he looked against Protoss back during OSC? Losing to Rock?!?!?! JD's first OSL run was anything but convincing. It wasn't until around the time that he won MSL that he seemed to have stepped up his ZvP game. In fact I recall him being less than 50% wins vs Protoss at the time of his OSL win. So then you rag on Savior for offline prelims? >_> History could have been very different if Jaedong had to play against Bisu or even Free (who JD has a losing record against even today!). It's not that the OSL win was somehow meaningless, but that there was a completely diifferent feeling than when Savior marched through every fucking single one of the best vs Z players of his day. Jaedong has not yet surpassed Savior. In terms of relative dominance, he may never surpass Savior: the skill level of the average A-team progamer has risen drastically since Savior's era. Savior's achievements are countless and indisputable. Terrans really were walking all over Zerg, and Savior really was the only hope for Zerg. But you may be downplaying just how much Protoss was walking over Zerg before Jaedong's ascension at EVER. Yes, his vP was terrible before and up to game 1 against Stork. But as Hot_Bid pointed out in his FE, Jaedong learned ZvP right before our eyes in the finals of the most coveted prestigious league. Less than a month later, he proved the viability of 3hatch scourge->5hatch hydra against the world's best PvZer, Bisu, on Blue Storm and began the counter-revolution against forge FE that's reversed nearly all the advantages in strategy and morale that Bisu earned when he slaughtered Savior. At the same time, he was raping Terrans left and right with 2hatch muta and winning the great majority of his ZvZs. Only the sudden rise of Flash prevented him from winning both leagues that spring. It's possible that Jaedong's ZvP might still be abysmal if he had played Bisu in the EVER finals instead of Stork, but that's not what happened. Just as Flash would do in Bacchus, he used Stork to evolve his vP matchup to an S-class level and soon reversed the flow of the metagame (no more carriers vs. T, no more sair/dt vs. Z). Jaedong's strategic achievements (regression to 2hatch vs. T, expansion to 5hatch vs. P, complete paradigm shift vZ) are not as flashy as Savior's (3 hatch muta->lurker/defiler->ultra/ling vs. T, muta/lurk vs. P), but they have also had a great influence on the metagame. The reason 75% of OSL/MSL semifinalists are Zerg this season isn't just maps; it's also Jaedong, who proved that a focus on mechanics and execution could solve problems in the metagame that players with a broader strategic vision and weaker mechanics, like Savior, could not, or at the very least make those problems easier to solve. Savior was great, Jaedong is great. We know precisely how great Savior was, but Jaedong's greatness is still a work in progress. | ||
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Zherak
Norway256 Posts
Bisu gains the upper hand with the proxy robotic. Doesn't manage to shut Iris down, but goes into midgame with a large economic advantage. Assorted subpar defense against the harass, misses a giant timing window where he has legions of zealgoon and Iris is taking his third while dropshipping. Bisu slowly loses most of his advantage through sloppy play. At the critical moment (hallucinated zealots), he tries to finish Iris off instead of defending his expansions, which would most likely have won him the game. The reason this happens is that throughout the whole game, Bisu seems to have completely forgotten about the expansion at three o' clock. Note how he invests a lot into taking out 12 and Iris' third, even busting into his main, but never even gains vision of three o' clock. This expansion sits largely undefended most of the game, and nearly every single second of the game, Bisu could have destroyed it with ease. This probably explains Bisu's whole loss. His play is rather sloppy the whole midgame, but if you completely forget about Iris' fourth expansion, it is more than adequate. He doesn't feel pressured. He knows he could've done a lot better, but thinks he has the game in the bag - even going as far as to try to show off with hallucinated zealots instead of just securing economy and winning. My guess is Bisu isn't accounting for three o' clock when he goes for it with hallucinations. That would put Iris at far less units than he actually had and Bisu would have won easily with a cute finishing move. Getting his army killed off, he eventually realizes Iris' has the hidden expansion and shuts it down with four templars, but at this point, the game is already lost. | ||
Harem
United States11393 Posts
On August 05 2009 10:00 EvoChamber wrote: Jaedong has not yet surpassed Savior. In terms of relative dominance, he may never surpass Savior: the skill level of the average A-team progamer has risen drastically since Savior's era. Savior's achievements are countless and indisputable. Terrans really were walking all over Zerg, and Savior really was the only hope for Zerg. But you may be downplaying just how much Protoss was walking over Zerg before Jaedong's ascension at EVER. Yes, his vP was terrible before and up to game 1 against Stork. But as Hot_Bid pointed out in his FE, Jaedong learned ZvP right before our eyes in the finals of the most coveted prestigious league. Less than a month later, he proved the viability of 5hatch hydra against the world's best PvZer, Bisu, on Blue Storm and began the counter-revolution against forge FE that's reversed nearly all the advantages in strategy and morale that Bisu earned when he slaughtered Savior. At the same time, he was raping Terrans left and right with 2hatch muta and winning the great majority of his ZvZs. Only the sudden rise of Flash prevented him from winning both leagues that spring. It's possible that Jaedong's ZvP might still be abysmal if he had played Bisu in the EVER finals instead of Stork, but that's not what happened. Just as Flash would do in Bacchus, he used Stork to evolve his vP matchup to an S-class level and soon reversed the flow of the metagame (no more carriers vs. T, no more sair/dt vs. Z). Jaedong's strategic achievements (regression to 2hatch vs. T, expansion to 5hatch vs. P, complete paradigm shift vZ) are not as flashy as Savior's (3 hatch muta->lurker/defiler->ultra/ling vs. T, muta/lurk vs. P), but they have also had a great influence on the metagame. The reason 75% of OSL/MSL semifinalists are Zerg this season isn't just maps; it's also Jaedong, who proved that a focus on mechanics and execution could solve problems in the metagame that players with a broader strategic vision and weaker mechanics, like Savior, could not, or at least, make those problems easier to solve. Savior was great, Jaedong is great. We know precisely how great Savior was, but Jaedong's greatness is still a work in progress. You forgot the more important part of what he did to zvp with scourge. | ||
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
On August 05 2009 08:32 Dazed_Spy wrote: And being a bonjwa isnt about the amount of leagues you win, its in what fashion you win them. Jaedong does not dominate when he wins, outside of zvz. No ones mouths are left open in shock when he beats off a push. His zvt and zvp are strong, aggressive, but not AMAZING like other Bonjwa's match up's were. Jaedong is a winner, not a destroyer. And he will never be a bonjwa until he destroys leagues. I'm a bit confused by this. You're saying that if Jaedong wins the next 3 OSLs and collects the first ever Platinum Mouse, that wouldn't be sufficient if he didn't win those games enough. That he could retire with the best StarLeague record ever, yet still not be considered Bonjwa. If so, then the title is completely arbitrary and without meaning. If you can be the greatest StarCraft player ever without being Bonjwa, then being Bonjwa isn't something worth pursuing. And while you point to GOM, back then Savior dominated obliterated everyone at just about every single special event he was invited to. Did he do so while playing anything even remotely like the kind of schedule Jaedong did? While playing the same quality opponents that Jaedong had to? JD's first OSL run was anything but convincing. It wasn't until around the time that he won MSL that he seemed to have stepped up his ZvP game. In fact I recall him being less than 50% wins vs Protoss at the time of his OSL win. So then you rag on Savior for offline prelims? >_> I'm sorry; I believe that a win is a win. Whether it's cheese, dominance, ugly, epic, whatever. 3-2, 3-0, offline prelims, etc. If you can't get it done, you can't get it done. | ||
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Ideas
United States8179 Posts
On August 05 2009 10:04 Harem wrote: You forgot the more important part of what he did to zvp with scourge. didn't July 1st use 3 hatch spire to scourge to counter sairs in the EVER2008 OSL vs Best? | ||
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LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
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EvoChamber
France2505 Posts
On August 05 2009 10:13 Ideas wrote: didn't July 1st use 3 hatch spire to scourge to counter sairs in the EVER2008 OSL vs Best? Yeah, but you can already see Jaedong doing it on January 8, 2008 in the Bisu game on Blue Storm. | ||
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