|
motbob
United States12546 Posts
On August 05 2009 14:48 latent wrote:
I wish people would stop saying Bisu vs. Iris Game 5 was the "best game" in a long time, or "ever", or whatever else. That had to be the most depressing, arrogant, and idiotic mistake of a game I have ever seen. Bisu absolutely threw away the game after his first brilliant hallucination attack. He just let Iris steamroll his economy at 7 and 8 for no reason other than he figured he already had the game in hand and didn't want to waste time defending and expanding.
I understand 5 games will take a toll on one's discipline and self-control, but holy cow that kind of arrogance is just disgusting.
I'm sure Bisu had been practicing hours and hours every day since his last match. It's really sad that he just threw it away with such stupid decision making.
I totally agree, for what it's worth.
|
If Bisu won the game it would be called one of the best games of recent memory.
|
Savior never won 2 leagues at the same time, did he?
And this whole argument of having to win both leagues to be "bonjwa" would make nada into some kind of starcraft god instead of "bonjwa", as he won 3 leagues at the same time, yet some fanboys of other players like boxer and savior still don't consider nada the best of all time.
Personally i think this "bonjwa" stuff is 90% hype-based and 10% fact-based at the most, and with bisu and cj fanboys (which i consider the most blind of all) around, its hard to impossible for a player who doesn't belong to either of those groups to be considered by all as the best.
This thread is basically cj vs bisu fanboy rage, i mean, there are even people saying that iris will rape jaedong, lol, did people even watch their last game on chupung?
I wish bisu had won so that jaedong could stomp him in the finals, but i don't really think this would make the fanboys stop the blind rage, as jaedong has beaten bisu in a bo5 in the past.
I mean, we're talking about a player who has lost 2 bo5 in over 300 games, and some people still don't consider this domination. Does anyone have the stats on how many bo5 JD has played and/or his bo5 win/loss stats?
|
The use of the word bonjwa has been butchered and lost so much of its meaning ever since it was thrown around on TL after Savior's fall from grace.
I'm not certain, but I don't think people were calling Nada or iloveoov bonjwa during their days of dominance. Bonjwa was just a title netizens decided to bestow upon oov and Nada when the term was coined for Savior.
I mean, just make a TL search for it. No mention of the word until 2007. And now it's being thrown around anytime someone strings together a couple of victories together or wins some titles. It takes a lot more than that to be bonjwa.
|
Osaka27136 Posts
On August 05 2009 14:48 latent wrote:
I wish people would stop saying Bisu vs. Iris Game 5 was the "best game" in a long time, or "ever", or whatever else. That had to be the most depressing, arrogant, and idiotic mistake of a game I have ever seen. Bisu absolutely threw away the game after his first brilliant hallucination attack. He just let Iris steamroll his economy at 7 and 8 for no reason other than he figured he already had the game in hand and didn't want to waste time defending and expanding.
I understand 5 games will take a toll on one's discipline and self-control, but holy cow that kind of arrogance is just disgusting.
I'm sure Bisu had been practicing hours and hours every day since his last match. It's really sad that he just threw it away with such stupid decision making.
You're right, he didn't play perfectly and thus the game wasn't good.  I hate armchair progamers so much.
That game showed such great early pressure and defense. Iris was relentless when every other terran in the world would have folded under such sick pressure. He DROVE Bisu into making that attack, I didn't see it as "arrogant" or "idiotic".
|
Game 5 was one of the best games ever.
|
United States216 Posts
Hands down best series of games I have ever seen, that was amazing! I <3 Starcraft!
|
I dunno I thought game 5 was a fantastic game. Bisu made mistakes, there are mistakes in every single SC game. That's part of what made it epic, he didn't realize there was another base and it added a ton of tension to the game. It wasn't a great game because everyone played perfect, whatever that means. It was a great game because it was game 5, it was 35 minutes long, and nobody had any clue who was going to win until about 2 minutes from the end.
|
motbob
United States12546 Posts
On August 05 2009 16:06 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2009 14:48 latent wrote:
I wish people would stop saying Bisu vs. Iris Game 5 was the "best game" in a long time, or "ever", or whatever else. That had to be the most depressing, arrogant, and idiotic mistake of a game I have ever seen. Bisu absolutely threw away the game after his first brilliant hallucination attack. He just let Iris steamroll his economy at 7 and 8 for no reason other than he figured he already had the game in hand and didn't want to waste time defending and expanding.
I understand 5 games will take a toll on one's discipline and self-control, but holy cow that kind of arrogance is just disgusting.
I'm sure Bisu had been practicing hours and hours every day since his last match. It's really sad that he just threw it away with such stupid decision making. You're right, he didn't play perfectly and thus the game wasn't good. I hate armchair progamers so much. That game showed such great early pressure and defense. Iris was relentless when every other terran in the world would have folded under such sick pressure. He DROVE Bisu into making that attack, I didn't see it as "arrogant" or "idiotic".
I should have qualified my agreement that I really really wish Bisu had defended instead of attacked, so that we could gush over him and call him amazing for his play that game, which was ah-my-gawd good. Seriously, the use of arbiters, storm, hallucination, shuttles, reavers, EVERYTHING was incredible.
But he threw it away. And now I hate watching the game because of it.
|
On August 05 2009 16:06 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2009 14:48 latent wrote:
I wish people would stop saying Bisu vs. Iris Game 5 was the "best game" in a long time, or "ever", or whatever else. That had to be the most depressing, arrogant, and idiotic mistake of a game I have ever seen. Bisu absolutely threw away the game after his first brilliant hallucination attack. He just let Iris steamroll his economy at 7 and 8 for no reason other than he figured he already had the game in hand and didn't want to waste time defending and expanding.
I understand 5 games will take a toll on one's discipline and self-control, but holy cow that kind of arrogance is just disgusting.
I'm sure Bisu had been practicing hours and hours every day since his last match. It's really sad that he just threw it away with such stupid decision making. You're right, he didn't play perfectly and thus the game wasn't good. I hate armchair progamers so much. That game showed such great early pressure and defense. Iris was relentless when every other terran in the world would have folded under such sick pressure. He DROVE Bisu into making that attack, I didn't see it as "arrogant" or "idiotic".
where did he say that the early game wasnt fatastic? he explicitly said "Bisu absolutely threw away the game after his first brilliant hallucination attack." And he is right. With the nat/6o clock expansion (nearly) mined out giving away his only 2 running bases was the most stupid decision i ever saw in a progaming pvt. seriously, i cant think of anyone who did such a mistake. basically bisu went allin then for abolutely no reason, saying "ok ill have no expo if this attack fails. ah what the heck, lets go"
besides, i dont know if his early game pressure was played perfectly as well. elevating 4 goons before he goes in with another rvr and letting them shoot an the cc/refinery instead of using them to further reduce the tank count didnt seem very smart to me.
still a great game.
|
lol no one mentioned Kwanro and Zero ... i feel bad for them =P
|
Russian Federation1611 Posts
Little summary:
Game1: Bisu doesn't correctly respond to 2fact push moving his goons back allowing Iris to contain himself and win easily
Bisu mistakes, Iris plays standart
Bisu: 2/5
Iris: 3/5
Game2: Iris makes mistake by not building any anti-DT units
Iris mistakes, Bisu plays standart
Bisu: 3/5
Iris: 2/5
So, Games 1&2 were exchange of anti-rush mistakes.
Game3: Bisu goes 2-base-arbiter and makes not effective early recall that gives Iris a little advantage. Then Bisu agressively attacks Iris 3rd and 4th and almost wins but plays not accurate and loses most of his units not properly defending his bases.
Iris played standart when Bisu lost the game by attacking Iris super agressively not defending his bases.
Bisu: 2/5
Iris: 4/5
Game4: Early proxy-gate agression gived Bisu a little economy advangate. Using this Bisu made excellent mid-game timing push when Iris had not enough vultures and didn't have EMP yet.
Bisu played super-agressive smart strategy that Iris just couldnt counter.
Bisu overplayed Iris in this game
Bisu: 5/5
Iris: 3/5
Game5:
Almost the same game as Game3, Bisu almost won but then played so unaccurate that allowed Iris to comeback.
Bisu: 3/5
Iris: 4/5
I dont agree that Iris overplayed Bisu in games 3 and 5, Bisu played so unaccurate playing 2-3/5 and throwed these games out. I see that Bisu underrated Iris so hard and played not focused. Bisu only focused in game 2 and 4. Games 3 and 5 he almost won but playing unfocused he throwed them away and lost (see choked).
So pity, but i hope this mistake will make him stronger.
Form of Bisu nowadays reminds me of Jaedong's form of late 2008 when he lost to underdogs like Tempest and Free (not so strong player).
|
|
|
Haha upset Bisu fans~
Favorited the game on youtube, oh my god it's so good. Definitely one of the best games I've seen. :3
Used to think Iris was a badass and a baller, now I think he's not only these things, but also fearlessly awesome.
There were some rough times in that game but he grit his teeth and persevered. That's pretty damn inspiring.
|
I thought Iris would do it.
Last time I doubted Iris, he 3-0'd the mightiest Stork ever.
Fuckin aye. Now he has to win the whole thing.,, JD is ez.
Even Canata had him 2-2.
|
On August 05 2009 17:30 Murdoink wrote:lol
was that after he won 3-0?
context please
|
On August 05 2009 18:07 Marine50 wrote:was that after he won 3-0? context please
It was right in the middle of the second game, say about at the 5 minute mark of a 14 minute game. Kwanro just defended a 9-pool speed with an overpool expand, with ease.
|
On August 05 2009 18:07 Marine50 wrote:was that after he won 3-0? context please
This happened after Kwanro defended against Zero's 9 pool (?) ling attack vs his hatchery.
Bisu's decision to attack Iris near the end wasn't a bad one. Iris was already in his 7 o'clock bases killing stuff and Bisu's army was all the way across the map. If he retreated, the damage would've been done anyway and he'd still be set back. Iris also had 3 expansions running at the time, I think.
All the Bisu fanboys would be calling the hallucinated zealots "omg so sexy and pimpest play" if he won, but since he lost it's "noob bisu was arrogant again, that's the only reason he lost." You guys are funny.
|
I'm pretty sure Jaedong is the most skilled zerg and arguebly player ever . The game back at the Savior Era hadn't evolved as much as it is today . I think the fact that Savior dominated that much has to mean that the compatition wasn't as fierce as it is today or do to the fact that Savior was a new player and other players adapted to his style . But i'm pretty sure that what Jaedong displays now with his 400 apm is at a higher skill level then what Savior displaied back at his prime , but then again i could be wrong the metagame changed a lot now .
I think that Jaedong is pretty much a bonjwa if he wins at least OSL . Since he won his first OSL in 2007 every season he has won at least 1 league , but i don't know if WCG korea and GOM classic counts for something thought . And the fact that he has the most wins in PL also support that he is bonjwa material . His stats in all MU's are bonjwa level as well .
I don't think other Bonjwas played more games as Jaedong does right now and that supports that they had more time to practise and weren't overworked as Jaedong . Jaedong has the most PL wins in such a short period of time means that he dominates proleague like no other .
|
9070 Posts
On August 05 2009 09:35 Athos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2009 08:43 disciple wrote:On August 05 2009 05:36 B1nary wrote:On August 05 2009 05:23 GGQ wrote:Man, Bisu is always in the best and most exciting games. Seriously, whenever people assemble 'best games of the year' lists, they always include a whole lot of Bisu. Unfortunately, he often loses those games  . I've noticed this too. He does seem to be on the receiving end of epic games and weird strats more often than expected. Any idea why? Pure coincidence? I assume part of it is because he's good but Jaedong/Flash/fantasy don't seem to have that problem. sadly thou this is absolutely right - in long term Bisu will be remembered with the epic games he lost... vs ChRh , YellOw, Jaedong, Flash etc. With Jaedong, its not the case, he either wins or loses badly and we as spectators just forget it happened and move on. The only long epic game that Jaedong lost, which comes on top of my mind is his first encounter with Bisu on Andromeda I like how Bisu fans suddenly become emo when Bisu loses a series 2:3. It's not over for the guy, he still has the 2nd highest ELO in progamming is the greatest protoss player of all time. A loss to Iris is not going to take that away. You're right in that it's difficult to think of epic games when thinking of Bisu because he's the 2nd best player in the world right now. When Bisu wins he just rolls over people usually. However there are some very epic games he's played (and won) for instance: Bisu: Savior (won 3:0) Bisu v. Jaedong andromedia or heartbreak ridge Bisu v. Stork (5th game in particular) Bisu v. Hwasin- there's a lot of really good ones between them Also, the idea of an epic game is all relative to the beholder. If you mean a long drawn out game than GG-play vs. Stork can count as an epic game. However, that shouldn't be the only criteria for declaring something epic. Stork vs. GG-play had lots of fail moments on both sides, and many people don't think that game is epic at all. Bisu's games vs. ChRh and Yellow would not be epic besides the fact that Bisu is Bisu! It's only epic because its a massive upset by ChRh and Yellow. Also, his games to Flash are dominated by cheese. You can argue that it's epic cheese, but I don't consider that epic in my book. B Bisu himself pulls off plenty of epic cheese himself (I'm thinking of that game where he had an in-base proxy gates behind a mineral line). Also jaedong has lost epic games as well: Jaedong vs. Flash (Basically every game between these is epic, but a lot of them are epic win by Flash). Jaedong vs. Sea @ Andromeda (an epic 45 minute tvz) Jaedong vs. Free (well, I thought it was an epic game anyways). I also think that Jaedong seems to play more 'epic' games because he plays zerg. Zerg will always be known for its flare, precession, and finesse. Just remember, Bisu v. Savior will always be remembered as epic because nobody expect Bisu to win and he won in dramatic fashion.
I disagree , Flash vs Bisu in Bacchus OSL Ro4 (was it there?) was one of the best TvP series ever, even thou Flash won it 3-1. Its so rare to see protoss army totally destroying 200-200 max upgrade terran ball with cliff advantage. Defensive recalls , carriers + arbiters, Bisu threw everything at flash and the kid still won. Was a great match, one of the few that I watched many times although Bisu was the loser
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://fomos.kr/gnuboard4/data/file/gallery/3673080874_cd6b870c_090804-17th-MSL-2009-8B0AD-D.gif)
