EPT[MSL] QuarterFinals Day 3 - Page 77
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Dice
Korea (South)926 Posts
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Promises
Netherlands1821 Posts
On August 05 2009 16:59 motbob wrote: I should have qualified my agreement that I really really wish Bisu had defended instead of attacked, so that we could gush over him and call him amazing for his play that game, which was ah-my-gawd good. Seriously, the use of arbiters, storm, hallucination, shuttles, reavers, EVERYTHING was incredible. But he threw it away. And now I hate watching the game because of it. My thoughts exactly. | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On August 05 2009 14:48 latent wrote: I wish people would stop saying Bisu vs. Iris Game 5 was the "best game" in a long time, or "ever", or whatever else. That had to be the most depressing, arrogant, and idiotic mistake of a game I have ever seen. Bisu absolutely threw away the game after his first brilliant hallucination attack. He just let Iris steamroll his economy at 7 and 8 for no reason other than he figured he already had the game in hand and didn't want to waste time defending and expanding. I understand 5 games will take a toll on one's discipline and self-control, but holy cow that kind of arrogance is just disgusting. I'm sure Bisu had been practicing hours and hours every day since his last match. It's really sad that he just threw it away with such stupid decision making. That's funny I think it was the exact opposite of arrogance. He was in despair and felt like he had to win the game now with this aggression and that if he just runs back he's gonna lose the game. Bisu's never been incredibly confident about his PvT. | ||
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DN2perfectionGM
United States233 Posts
On August 05 2009 20:30 7mk wrote: That's funny I think it was the exact opposite of arrogance. He was in despair and felt like he had to win the game now with this aggression and that if he just runs back he's gonna lose the game. Bisu's never been incredibly confident about his PvT. your right that when iris dropped on bisu, it may have been too late for bisu. but bisu's decision to go all-in wasn't what made me think of him as cocky. that made me think that he was stupid though for his lack of defense... it was before the drop, when i saw that bisu's army may have had more high templars and archons than zealots, and barely any dragoons. i think they showed bisu having like 8 high templars moving around, with announcers talking about another hallucination as a sort of ceremony attack. that decision to make so many high templars and later actually using hallucination to attack was what made me think that bisu was arrogant. other than that, i wish bisu would have let iris attack, instead of keep running into his defense with buildings in place and tanks already sieged. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
He put himself into match winning positions in games 3 and 5 but couldn't close it out. Well played by Iris tho. His dropship counters in the 5th game were really clutch. | ||
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geod
Vietnam450 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On August 05 2009 18:50 raga4ka wrote: I'm pretty sure Jaedong is the most skilled zerg and arguebly player ever . The game back at the Savior Era hadn't evolved as much as it is today . I think the fact that Savior dominated that much has to mean that the compatition wasn't as fierce as it is today or do to the fact that Savior was a new player and other players adapted to his style . But i'm pretty sure that what Jaedong displays now with his 400 apm is at a higher skill level then what Savior displaied back at his prime , but then again i could be wrong the metagame changed a lot now . I think that Jaedong is pretty much a bonjwa if he wins at least OSL . Since he won his first OSL in 2007 every season he has won at least 1 league , but i don't know if WCG korea and GOM classic counts for something thought . And the fact that he has the most wins in PL also support that he is bonjwa material . His stats in all MU's are bonjwa level as well . I don't think other Bonjwas played more games as Jaedong does right now and that supports that they had more time to practise and weren't overworked as Jaedong . Jaedong has the most PL wins in such a short period of time means that he dominates proleague like no other . Strictly comparing skill levels, obviously Jaedong is the best ever. It's the same with any other type of game or sport in history - the newer generation is better because they study the older generation and build upon it. The difference is who dominated more in there era. If Jaedong can win at least two of these leagues he's in (OSL, MSL, PL), then I think his reign MAY have truly begun. | ||
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GoSu
Korea (South)1773 Posts
On August 06 2009 00:25 Stratos_speAr wrote: Strictly comparing skill levels, obviously Jaedong is the best ever. It's the same with any other type of game or sport in history - the newer generation is better because they study the older generation and build upon it. The difference is who dominated more in there era. If Jaedong can win at least two of these leagues he's in (OSL, MSL, PL), then I think his reign MAY have truly begun. I agree with you but I think his reign already started since the KeSPA raking shows a big gap between the first and the second place. Actually, Jaedong won many competitions. During this year, he brought Hwaseung in another way than before. I mean, Jaedong wins almost everytime. When you see every ACE match he won, and when you check every matches that Hwaseung was about to lose and they won thanks to him, that shows something. We will see during the final. A lot of people are judginf too fast about Hwaseung like "no chances to win etc" but Hwaseung will be a real danger for SKT. And most of all the danger will be emphasize thanks to someome who is totally imba. I let you guess who ahah =) | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36375 Posts
On August 05 2009 14:48 latent wrote: I wish people would stop saying Bisu vs. Iris Game 5 was the "best game" in a long time, or "ever", or whatever else. That had to be the most depressing, arrogant, and idiotic mistake of a game I have ever seen. Bisu absolutely threw away the game after his first brilliant hallucination attack. He just let Iris steamroll his economy at 7 and 8 for no reason other than he figured he already had the game in hand and didn't want to waste time defending and expanding. I understand 5 games will take a toll on one's discipline and self-control, but holy cow that kind of arrogance is just disgusting. I'm sure Bisu had been practicing hours and hours every day since his last match. It's really sad that he just threw it away with such stupid decision making. every game has to have a loser thus every game there is a mistake somewhere it was a great game because of the comeback, and obviously in a comeback someone has to make a mistake for the other person to catch up you don't hear people saying boxer vs joyo sucked because "joyo totally had him, he totally threw away the lead!" come the fuck on | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
Apparently juding but your posts you think that in order for a game to be good it has to a)involve your preferred player winning...this is amplified if one of the players hapens to be a favorite - and b)involve both players playing near perfectly dispite this being almost impossible(or just flat impossible if you get detailed enough). Since you dont seem to know what the hell you're talking about I'm going to assume it's just A. Sorry man just because a player you like a lot losses a very close game to an underdog doesnt mean the game sucked. That game was amazing. If you don't think so then try actually playing a game or too. You'll probably start to catch on eventually. It wasn't arrogance. It's called really awesome harass. Iris just wore him thin both mentally and physically. Consantly attacking with small attacks prevented bisu from doing everything he needed to do, such as scout properly, and caused bisu to underestimate the size of Iris's armies. Bisu would get harassed , defend but not that smooth, regroup after and try to counter attack only to be suprised again and again that the battles were not as close as he'd expected. It's real easy to set back with the map fully revealed only having to think about one thing at a time and shout out like a moron "OH BISU SUCKED THIS GAME HE HAD IT , IT WAS OBVIOUS". Its much more intelligent to just appreciate an amazing display of preperation, skill, and raw talent when you see it, even if it's not totally flawless. You should stick to that next time. You can say Bisu "threw it away" or you can say Iris outmultitasked, out thought, and out macroed him in the end. It's just a matter of perspective. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36375 Posts
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hyst.eric.al
United States2332 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On August 05 2009 14:43 On_Slaught wrote: My standards are not any less arbitrary than the entire community of team liquid outside of the jaedong fan boys. Thats why hes universally not considered a bonjwa. Thats why bonjwa is universally agreed to be exactly how I described it to be. Thats why Bisu is not a bonjwa. Thats why Flash is not a bonjwa. I'm not trying to justify myself as better than the newer people in the scene, because that does not require justification. It's an axiom, boy.The blind fanboyism and arbitrary standards in this thread (in particular from dazed_spy) must be some sad attempt to justify himself as better than people newer to the scene (not that i'm one). You don't set the standard for what a bonjwa is, nor do I; the community does. I have absolutely no doubt that if JD wins both starleagues, the COMMUNITY will embrace him as the absolute best player by modern standards (which are going to involve closer games and less dominance) and your pathetic attempts to cling to the past will be laughed at and ignored. And ok, im a massive troll, but whats with the obvious flaming of me? Got some sand in your vagina's, Jaedong fans? On August 06 2009 00:47 Hot_Bid wrote: Well actually, I've been saying that for years now. Joyo sat there and let like 6 or 7 carriers die with absolutely no micro. It's like he just sat there in a daydream half way through the game. every game has to have a loser thus every game there is a mistake somewhere it was a great game because of the comeback, and obviously in a comeback someone has to make a mistake for the other person to catch up you don't hear people saying boxer vs joyo sucked because "joyo totally had him, he totally threw away the lead!" come the fuck on On August 05 2009 17:26 Jenia6109 wrote: I didn't even bother reading your other game summaries because I found these two particularly funny. Going two fact is not standard [I am under the assumption standart is standard] in the pro circuit anymore. So thats number 1. Number 2, Iris was doing a joyo rush, his anti dt units were meant to be vultures with mines. The timing doesn't work out to through down an eng bay or an academy even if you suspect dt's. I have no idea why he didnt place down mines, I can only presume the upgrade wasn't finished. But no, a proxy dt is not "standart", not to a two fact or any other play. Hell Bisu didn't even know it was a two fact, he didn't get a scout in. It could of been anything.Little summary: Game1: Bisu doesn't correctly respond to 2fact push moving his goons back allowing Iris to contain himself and win easily Bisu mistakes, Iris plays standart Bisu: 2/5 Iris: 3/5 Game2: Iris makes mistake by not building any anti-DT units Iris mistakes, Bisu plays standart Bisu: 3/5 Iris: 2/5 So a big ol "NO" to your summaries. | ||
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Djin)ftw(
Germany3357 Posts
On August 06 2009 01:02 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: To latent and some others: Apparently juding but your posts you think that in order for a game to be good it has to a)involve your preferred player winning...this is amplified if one of the players hapens to be a favorite - and b)involve both players playing near perfectly dispite this being almost impossible(or just flat impossible if you get detailed enough). Since you dont seem to know what the hell you're talking about I'm going to assume it's just A. rofl. a good game via definition is a game where no player makes huge mistakes (regarding both pro and amateur level). when i watch a replay of me that i think is good, then its not good cause i stomp some 60 APM noob with my 200 APM but because i won against someone who is at least as good as me. so saying bisu iris game 5 is AWESOME because of the elevator/rvr harass and hallucinations is like saying "ok this girl has nice boobs" but ignoring the fact that she has only 3 teeth and 1 arm. so how on earth can u say game 5 was epic when bisu, no matter why (tired/arrogant/felt he'd lose/WE) decides to not defend his 7/8 expansions? yes he pushed iris back in his natural, yes he stormed 3 and attacked 12 at some point. but he just _didnt_ have to. he could just take a shuttle and storm 3, defend 7/8, maybe take the minonly and wait for iris to push. many of his desicions just sucked. taking the 11(?) main, losing it without any sort of defense to 1 dropship or what (cans warped in 2 late or so). making like 24 hallucinations (where i have to ask myself if so many hallus were nessecary). not defending 7/8. elevating 4 goons and not attacking tanks with them, parking two of them in a corner of iris' base after killing the refinery. that are all things (by watching it again i bet ull find more) that bother me where i immediatly ask myself "what would janbgi have done? stork? was it nessecary? was he really behind? did he had to try end the game?" i dont think so, and thats why i think game 5 sucks (despite the awesome early game) | ||
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JFKWT
Singapore1442 Posts
Isnt 2 fac a standard aggro build just like going 2 hatch or 2/3 gate.. and these are done alot even today. Hwasin uses 2 rax builds vZ quite alot while all the "aggressive" zergs prefer 2 hatch so is Jaedong nonstandard? | ||
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Djin)ftw(
Germany3357 Posts
so yes, going 2 fac every(?..at last 4/5) game is nonstandard | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On August 06 2009 03:22 Djin)ftw( wrote: Yup. Not only are they ineffective compared to a more macro oreinted build, they are more often than not horribly butchered due to modern day micro. Look at iris' initial push against Bisu in game one. It did NOTHING. The only reason he won is because Bisu thought it was an FD, as Iris purposefully tricked him. Two gate pvz is usually horribly slaughtered when its used in the modern day as well- barring some exceptions to both rules, of course. 2 fac tvp is like 2gate pvz. u dont see it often cause forge/fe (1 fac/cc) are usually stronger so yes, going 2 fac every(?..at last 4/5) game is nonstandard | ||
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B1nary
Canada1267 Posts
On August 06 2009 03:17 Djin)ftw( wrote: rofl. a good game via definition is a game where no player makes huge mistakes (regarding both pro and amateur level). when i watch a replay of me that i think is good, then its not good cause i stomp some 60 APM noob with my 200 APM but because i won against someone who is at least as good as me. so saying bisu iris game 5 is AWESOME because of the elevator/rvr harass and hallucinations is like saying "ok this girl has nice boobs" but ignoring the fact that she has only 3 teeth and 1 arm. so how on earth can u say game 5 was epic when bisu, no matter why (tired/arrogant/felt he'd lose/WE) decides to not defend his 7/8 expansions? yes he pushed iris back in his natural, yes he stormed 3 and attacked 12 at some point. but he just _didnt_ have to. he could just take a shuttle and storm 3, defend 7/8, maybe take the minonly and wait for iris to push. many of his desicions just sucked. taking the 11(?) main, losing it without any sort of defense to 1 dropship or what (cans warped in 2 late or so). making like 24 hallucinations (where i have to ask myself if so many hallus were nessecary). not defending 7/8. elevating 4 goons and not attacking tanks with them, parking two of them in a corner of iris' base after killing the refinery. that are all things (by watching it again i bet ull find more) that bother me where i immediatly ask myself "what would janbgi have done? stork? was it nessecary? was he really behind? did he had to try end the game?" i dont think so, and thats why i think game 5 sucks (despite the awesome early game) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe professional Starcraft is usually played between 2 players. The game was epic not because of Bisu's elevator, Bisu's Reaver harass, Bisu's hallucinations, and Bisu's defensive recalls. It was epic because Bisu's opponent (whose identify doesn't deserve any mention next to the great Bisu) defended against Bisu's early aggression with gritted teeth and clawed his way back into the game by exploiting Bisu's mistakes with his own dropship harass. | ||
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EvoChamber
France2505 Posts
And ok, im a massive troll, but whats with the obvious flaming of me? Got some sand in your vagina's, Jaedong fans? You're a troll and you wonder why you're getting flamed? You've been banned 7 times because every fourth word you post is garbage. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On August 06 2009 04:19 EvoChamber wrote: No, every fouth post I make is garbage. At times I make legitimate arguments and statements. Listen, I like to believe in a little thing called justice. Flame me when theres a purpose, not as some childish backlash to me raping your pathetic arguments. Dazed_Spy: You're a troll and you wonder why you're getting flamed? You've been banned 7 times because every fourth word you post is garbage. | ||
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I hate armchair progamers so much.
