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On June 07 2009 08:21 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2009 08:02 Idle wrote:On June 07 2009 07:48 arb wrote:On June 07 2009 06:59 Sadistx wrote:
Gotta love how the last 25 pages are discussing a bunch of lines in a game chat, and I thought the worst drama queens were on the EVE-online forums. Apparently not.
Gotta love SDM's hypocrisy though - he blames Idra for chatting in game and then starts acting like a total whiny 10 year old kid - "waaaah waaah Idra should worship me forever, waaah waaah he typed some stuff and this made me mad, so I'm not going to cast the gameeee".
Maybe he should have professionally confronted him after the game or just imposed rules for the next ro ? Yeah it seriously ruined the entire cast, tasteless was trying but daniel just killed the entire thing Imagine how SDM must feel though. He brought Idra over, handed him a progamer license without winning courage (something completely unheard of) and after bending over backwards like this Idra is over the top disrespectful to his opponents and bm. Its incredibly embarrassing for SDM, especially in a culture where respect is so important. He stuck his neck out for Idra and this is how he acts? Its not even trash talking or silly like FBH, its downright malicious and self-absorbed, which is pretty unacceptable for somebody who genuinely is the worst progamer in Korea. Whoa, whoa, whoaaaaa. a) Teams regularly give their players progaming licenses - in fact, it may be even more common to receive a license in this way than it is to win one in Courage. Each pro-team receives a certain amount of licenses to award over a given time period. Far from "completely unheard of" - don't use such strong language without checking your facts. b) IdrA is far from "the worst progamer in Korea". First, if you define "pro" as someone with a progaming license, there are countless Courage winners who are not even good enough to be picked up by a team. And second, even amongst players who both have licenses and are on teams, IdrA is not worst. He destroyed ToSsGirl at ESWC (who is a progamer, by the way) and has now made appearances in GOM, offlines, and minor league - that's more than many B-team players can say.
a) Idra is not Korean. Idra is a foreigner, and the first foreigner to play there. Its quite a different situation.
b) beating somebody once does not mean you're better. tossgirl has accomplished more than Idra could hope to. Idra has yet to even play a pro level match outside of Gom (which he lost in the first round), he routinely loses to minor league players, he has 0 room to behave the way he does.
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United States12607 Posts
On June 07 2009 08:31 disciple wrote:
He destroyed ToSsGirl, but so what? The chic is a celebrity. If you look at this way, progamers are getting payed because they draw audience >> earn money for the broadcasters. Why ppl are doing sports professionally? Because you can earn money with them, because high level of play is valued by spectators. So recently ToSsGirl got invitation for ultra special old champions starleague with Boxer Savior etc involved. So is Idra a better progamer?
Don't use obfuscation as a method of argumentation. When Daniel Lee said IdrA was the worst progamer, he most certainly meant in terms of StarCraft skill - and that's the definition everyone has been using in this thread thus far. What you've done in this post is introduce a new meaning for "worst progamer" and then argue that Daniel Lee could be correct if we adhere to that meaning - your point is totally irrelevant to the discussion here.
Edit: Idle, based on b) in your post above, the above goes for you too  . And please, just go watch IdrA's games vs. Tossgirl at ESWC. They weren't even close.
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On June 07 2009 08:27 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2009 08:13 Kinavca wrote:On June 07 2009 08:02 Idle wrote:On June 07 2009 07:48 arb wrote:On June 07 2009 06:59 Sadistx wrote:
Gotta love how the last 25 pages are discussing a bunch of lines in a game chat, and I thought the worst drama queens were on the EVE-online forums. Apparently not.
Gotta love SDM's hypocrisy though - he blames Idra for chatting in game and then starts acting like a total whiny 10 year old kid - "waaaah waaah Idra should worship me forever, waaah waaah he typed some stuff and this made me mad, so I'm not going to cast the gameeee".
Maybe he should have professionally confronted him after the game or just imposed rules for the next ro ? Yeah it seriously ruined the entire cast, tasteless was trying but daniel just killed the entire thing ... Its incredibly embarrassing for SDM, especially in a culture where respect is so important. ... This is another good point It might be common in America for young immature kids to use fucks and shits casually when they're talking to each other but I don't think that's considered normal behavior in Korea, especially when you're playing in a serious tournament in front of an audience People need to get off the whole "American BM is unacceptable in Korea" argument. The only difference between the top-tier Korean pros we see TV and your average top foreigner is that the pros have a very public image to uphold and KeSPA to keep them in line. We have seen a wide variety of "BM" from Korean gamers - Chalrenge letting a swear slip into public chat during a 2v2, ceremonies, disc-hacking on iCCup, standard b.net trash talking (Stork, go.go). (Actually, I think these incidents are usually benign and entertaining, but that's unrelated here.) Daniel Lee lets fucks and shits fly in his casts...and in untelevised games (which is what IdrA thought this was) Korean gamers are just as likely to swear or "BM" as foreigners. Yes IdrA has had some nasty episodes of bad manner in the past and yes I do think he has a worse temper and is more of a prick than your average SC player. But let's not pretend that BM is something totally foreign to the Korean scene (no pun intended) or that being polite goes hand in hand with being a good SC player.
Swearing is not BM, I seriously doubt anybody is pissed about swearing. Blatantly and maliciously disrespecting your opponents is BM and is not acceptable. Idra repeatedly shows disrespect to other players and the people that got him where he is. This isn't trash talking, this isn't just swearing, this is being incredibly disrespectful in a place where you are no less than a guest; a place that you did not earn the right to be. He has skill, and he has potential, but he is there because other people got him there and his attitude is both unnecessary and undeserved.
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9071 Posts
On June 07 2009 08:36 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2009 08:31 disciple wrote:
He destroyed ToSsGirl, but so what? The chic is a celebrity. If you look at this way, progamers are getting payed because they draw audience >> earn money for the broadcasters. Why ppl are doing sports professionally? Because you can earn money with them, because high level of play is valued by spectators. So recently ToSsGirl got invitation for ultra special old champions starleague with Boxer Savior etc involved. So is Idra a better progamer? Don't use obfuscation as a method of argumentation. When Daniel Lee said IdrA was the worst progamer, he most certainly meant in terms of StarCraft skill - and that's the definition everyone has been using in this thread thus far. What you've done in this post is introduce a new meaning for "worst progamer" and then argue that Daniel Lee could be correct if we adhere to that meaning - your point is totally irrelevant to the discussion here. Edit: Idle, based on b) in your post above, the above goes for you too .
SDM never mentioned the word "skill" when saying that idra is the worst progamer in korea. The line was like "if you are the best, than there must be some reason in your BM, but idra is the worst progamer in korea alright?". I'm sure SDM wanted to say that behind the term "being a progamer" you can see a lot more stuff besides being good at the game, things like respecting your opponents and keep the professional ethics. So your arguments are pretty much Idra > TossGirl , he is not the worst progamer in Korea, SDM is wrong
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On June 07 2009 08:13 Kinavca wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2009 08:02 Idle wrote:On June 07 2009 07:48 arb wrote:On June 07 2009 06:59 Sadistx wrote:
Gotta love how the last 25 pages are discussing a bunch of lines in a game chat, and I thought the worst drama queens were on the EVE-online forums. Apparently not.
Gotta love SDM's hypocrisy though - he blames Idra for chatting in game and then starts acting like a total whiny 10 year old kid - "waaaah waaah Idra should worship me forever, waaah waaah he typed some stuff and this made me mad, so I'm not going to cast the gameeee".
Maybe he should have professionally confronted him after the game or just imposed rules for the next ro ? Yeah it seriously ruined the entire cast, tasteless was trying but daniel just killed the entire thing ... Its incredibly embarrassing for SDM, especially in a culture where respect is so important. ... This is another good point It might be common in America for young immature kids to use fucks and shits casually when they're talking to each other but I don't think that's considered normal behavior in Korea, especially when you're playing in a serious tournament in front of an audience
Its not even about swearing, its about being malicious and very disrespectful. Even SDM lets swear words slip, its really not a big deal. Idra's behavior (not just here, in many situations) is not acceptable, especially in a professional environment.
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United States12607 Posts
On June 07 2009 08:47 Idle wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2009 08:13 Kinavca wrote:On June 07 2009 08:02 Idle wrote:On June 07 2009 07:48 arb wrote:On June 07 2009 06:59 Sadistx wrote:
Gotta love how the last 25 pages are discussing a bunch of lines in a game chat, and I thought the worst drama queens were on the EVE-online forums. Apparently not.
Gotta love SDM's hypocrisy though - he blames Idra for chatting in game and then starts acting like a total whiny 10 year old kid - "waaaah waaah Idra should worship me forever, waaah waaah he typed some stuff and this made me mad, so I'm not going to cast the gameeee".
Maybe he should have professionally confronted him after the game or just imposed rules for the next ro ? Yeah it seriously ruined the entire cast, tasteless was trying but daniel just killed the entire thing ... Its incredibly embarrassing for SDM, especially in a culture where respect is so important. ... This is another good point It might be common in America for young immature kids to use fucks and shits casually when they're talking to each other but I don't think that's considered normal behavior in Korea, especially when you're playing in a serious tournament in front of an audience Its not even about swearing, its about being malicious and very disrespectful. Even SDM lets swear words slip, its really not a big deal. Idra's behavior (not just here, in many situations) is not acceptable, especially in a professional environment.
Did you read the chat? IdrA did exactly what you just defined as "really not a big deal" - he let a swear word slip. Nothing he said in this game was "malicious" or "very disrespectful".
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I'd generally consider telling somebody that their build orders and play is so bad he doesn't know what to do with it pretty disrespectful. This is also not even close to the first time or the worst that Idra has behaved disrespectfully.
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Honestly, watching the game just now I don't even think it was JUST the swearing that set off SDM.
1. First they started talking (obviously not professional in SDM's eyes)
2. Then Nick commented on how Idra was known for BM (which probably enraged SDM further)
3. Then there was a pause when it looked like they were done talking, but they started talking later (further pushing SDM on enragement).
4. Then the cursing probably set him off after all that buildup (maybe).
Listing to the cast I mean it just seemed like SDM didn't get extremely enraged UNTIL after the talking ended and then it just blew up from there. If it was because of the swearing specifically I didn't actually see that because he didn't comment on it directly nor did he blow up directly after Idra sweared.
I do agree it didn't seem like Idra was being intentionally BM or anything, but perception is always what is going to rule the day unfortunately. As I said in another thread, I do like Idra's blunt personality especially compared to the "cookie cutter" interviews. However, toning it back would be definitely a good idea especially in-game even if SDM did overreact here.
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United States1719 Posts
idra is a shitty player, 99.9% of the korean esports fans including me don't give a shit about him, and being bm certainly won't help raise his popularity. He should stop acting like an idiot
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It seems obvious to me why SDM got mad.
~He's clearly doing his best to get connect the foreign and the korean starcraft scene. For him doing a thing like Valor is an investment of time and energy that might not pay off.
~SDM is used to the korean starcraft culture which seems quite a bit more matured then the foreign scene. Seeing the squabbling during a game must look highly unproffesional to him. He doesn't know Tarson other then that he's a foreign amateur, which in SDM's eyes is probably a valid excuse for not having the same focus as pro. He does however know IdrA and probably feels like he made him. To see him act like an amateur while he probably thought him the ways of the progamers must make him feel like he has wasted his time on IdrA.
~Try placing IdrA's behavior in a diffrent sport then e-sport. How would it look if some semi-pro boxer would act like he's the shit when all he has going for him is going to the same gym as some champs?
IdrA might be good at mashing buttons but he's a terrible sportsman.
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oh wow the dramaaaaaaaaaaaa
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understandable that SDM got mad, but the way he acted afterwards was meh =/
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
On June 07 2009 10:15 rotinegg wrote:
idra is a shitty player, 99.9% of the korean esports fans including me don't give a shit about him, and being bm certainly won't help raise his popularity. He should stop acting like an idiot
....shut up. please.
Idra is a shitty player? Compared to who? Jaedong? Yeah ok. But out of all the non-korean players in the world, Idra is definitely among the top 5. Korean esports fans don't give a shit about him? Then why are all the LR threads with Idra filled with so many comments? Of course being BM doesn't help with his popularity. I don't agree with what Idra does in chat, but as Idra said, Tarson initiated the chat. The more professional thing to do would've been to ignore him, but it's really against natural instinct to not say something back.
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I just don't get how people relate bad manner to bad skill. Idra probably has the best tvz nonkorean for the past 3 years. he BEAT YELLOW. which other foreigners did something like that. Yet when it happenned this same crowd of people who bash Idra for bm were saying "yellow played bad, it doesnt even count". I hardly doubt he didn't try. Idra played strong and thats a fact, and he has a passion for the game you can tell it even if he doesnt speak so much in his interviews.
~same story with mistrzzz, tons of ppl saying hes bad just cuz of bad manner. yet he beats draco and apparently boxer if i'm not mistaken. where does the bias end? are emotions that strong?
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SDM's actions were completely justified.
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On June 07 2009 12:52 0cz3c wrote:
SDM's actions were completely justified.
No, they were not. Did I win the argument?
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Haven't read the whole thread, but the parts I have read seems that people have come to the conclusion that Daniel is angry at IdrA for disrespecting his opponents. Well, Daniel Lee quotes Sea[Shield] at the end of the Crayon vs Brat_OK series asking him about foreigners. SDM reports that Sea said he is friendly with the foreigners but concerning their play "to put it nicely" you never know what they are going to do. So either way, Daniel is being a hypocrite. He obviously supports Sea[Shield] (you can tell from the way he says it and even the relevance of bring it up) and he curses in his casts. Anywho, I still appreciate the casts, just wish he would not sweat the small things.
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Russian Federation134 Posts
On June 07 2009 10:15 rotinegg wrote:
idra is a shitty player, 99.9% of the korean esports fans including me don't give a shit about him, and being bm certainly won't help raise his popularity. He should stop acting like an idiot
Idra is the only programer foreigner thats on a professional team and actually plays... occasionally
he is quite infamous/famous (whatever it is) within foreigners and within korea. If you had a Kenyan in a classroom full of KKK youth, im sure the Kenyan would be noticed, be it negatively or positively.
idra is the same. he is noticed and reacted upon
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I've been giving this some more thought and now as a person who has a huuuge amount of respect for SDM and isnt too big a fan of idra: Daniel's reaction was uncalled for, not like that.
Anybody here just stop for a second and imagine what it would feel like to get humiliated by Daniel like that in front of thousands of viewers. I bet it doesn't feel great.
Now think about how Tarson felt....O_o he felt fine because there was nothing wrong with what Idra said except for using the word 'fucking'
I remember a recent cast @gomtv where Daniel used that same word in a derogatory way, saying "it's (his play) fucking terrible" or maybe he just said "he's fucking terrible" im not quite sure, one of the two. Either way, that's how you use that word to be bm.
Not that I minded, I laughed when he said that, but if you think that's ok then there's certainly nothing wrong with what Idra did.
Still I could understand if you now say "as a player its a different thing, as a player he shouldnt say shit" then I might not even disagree and if Idra had known it was being broadcasted he might not have said anything but to react that crazy in the fashion that SDM did... thats just too much.
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EPT
