EPTOn May 24 2009 06:13 Zozma wrote:
The position of the best terran around is
already taken, my friend.
The position of the best terran around is
already taken, my friend.nah he lost to luxury
[SPL] SK Telecom T1 vs KTF MagicNs - Page 50
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Kentor
United States5784 Posts
nah he lost to luxury | ||
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Deleted User 31060
3788 Posts
his TvP esp. on Destination is mind-blowing | ||
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johanes
Czech Republic2229 Posts
Guys, you are both obviously wrong, this place belongs to best starcraft player ever unicef | ||
tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Just as Flash has to prove it by winning a recent starleague. I never said that Flash isn't the second best Terran around, but I don't think he ever improves. Flash simply becomes more precise and more technically sound. Flash beat fantasy because Flash built his first supply depot in exactly the right spot to see Fantasy's drop coming. Otherwise, fantasy takes out a lot more SCVs, and Flash doesn't get to roll over him. Flash won, as he so often does, because he did everything right. That doesn't make him the best Terran. Fantasy is excellent in starleague play, because he can prepare and because he can adapt. Flash's playstyle is like iron, it's absurdly strong, but when it breaks, it breaks. Fantasy is more like steel, he gives here and there, but in the end, in a bo5, Fantasy will beat you. It's why he's been a runner-up in two straight OSLs, and why Flash hasn't had the same type of success after he won. Analogy time! Lets say I am the world's best at the 5 pool. I have supurb zergling micro, and I beat nearlyevery player I face. Once in a while, somebody is able to hold me off, but I still win 70% of the time. When my 5 pool fails however, I pretty much lose 100% of the time. (I am not  July). Does this make me the best zerg player in existence? Of course not. Same with Flash. Is that an exaggeration? Of course. But it's close to the truth. Flash varies very little. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On May 24 2009 06:13 Zozma wrote: The position of the best terran around is already taken, my friend.League: No Entries. Yeah. Also that's a horrible analogy. Flash does not do one thing over and over. He cheese (both BBS and fast CC), he goes pure standard, he's the master of timing pushes (Flash build ftw) AND Turtling. Flash can do everything and has done everything. He's not as on the ball currently, and I admit that, but saying he's a one build wonder is dense. | ||
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emucxg
Finland4559 Posts
On May 24 2009 06:22 johanes wrote: Guys, you are both obviously wrong, this place belongs to best starcraft player  Ever unicefI dont agree | ||
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SuperArc
Austria7781 Posts
Protoss has Bisu, Zerg has Jaedong, but Terran has Skyhigh, Leta, Flash and Fantasy. Whoever of the four first wins the next starleague will claim #1 terran. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On May 24 2009 02:48 HnR)hT wrote: Fantasy vs Flash was predictable build order loss. Fantasy did really well anyway due to brilliant management and harass, but Flash didn't make any mistakes. It's funny how Flash wins one game (after a streak of losses) and suddenly he's "the best terran," "invincible," and "really understand the underlying strategy better than anyone." For my money, Fantasy still owns him. People thinking Fantasy is a better terran than Flash is really lol hahahha | ||
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Zozma
United States1626 Posts
On May 24 2009 06:35 TwoToneTerran wrote: Leta's been to the MSL ro8 and OSL ro16, though. Also, he lost the MSL to the eventual champion (3-2), so he did pretty well anyway. Need I remind you that he also won 2-1 over Flash in the same MSL run? League: No Entries. Yeah. Also that's a horrible analogy. Flash does not do one thing over and over. He cheese (both BBS and fast CC), he goes pure standard, he's the master of timing pushes (Flash build ftw) AND Turtling. Flash can do everything and has done everything. He's not as on the ball currently, and I admit that, but saying he's a one build wonder is dense. | ||
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tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On May 24 2009 06:35 TwoToneTerran wrote: League: No Entries. Yeah. Also that's a horrible analogy. Flash does not do one thing over and over. He cheese (both BBS and fast CC), he goes pure standard, he's the master of timing pushes (Flash build ftw) AND Turtling. Flash can do everything and has done everything. He's not as on the ball currently, and I admit that, but saying he's a one build wonder is dense. Well yeah, it's an exaggeration. But it proves a point that you needed to name the cheeses that Flash can do. And he can turtle! And he can push! (He does have the best timing push in the game). I mean, I'm sure Flash can pull off practically any strategy better than... say... I can. But the point is that the most significant contribution Flash has made to starcraft is popularizing the early armory. But he's just not as dynamic player as fantasy is. I mean, can you argue that? He simply isn't. And I'll take a player like Fantasy who is actively changing the way starcraft is played over Flash who is merely excellent. EDIT: Also, SuperArc is completely right, Terran is much more up-in-the-air then the other two races at this point. If Flash (or sKYHigh (speaking of unoriginal, Leta will not win a starleague no matter how perfect his two-port TvZ is...)) wins a starleague before fantasy, then I'll concede the point. But I think a fantasy starleague win is inevitable, whereas I see Flash winning a starleague in four or five years. (It'll be a really emotional moment, and Flash will retire afterwards) | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
I'm not even saying Flash is performing better than Fantasy right now, but he has the better track record and was every bit as big an impact on TvP as Fantasy has been on TvZ, even though they've botth been performing subparly in those specific matches recently. That Flash has to win 2 OSLs before Fantasy wins one to prove he is atleast a rival is ridiculous. There is no clear cut terran best like there are for Protoss and Zerg right now. There's no Oov, no Boxer, no Nada -- it's a tight competition that varies monthly at this point. Flash was crazy enough to hold on to the best terran title for as long as he did. The difference between you and me right now isn't really that we both have a favorite 'best' terran, it's that you are almost rabid in trying to say that Fantasy is 100% better whereas I can admit BOTH are really damn good, and probably THE 2 S-class terrans, maybe with Leta bringing up a third. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7816 Posts
Hmmm... Fantasy shows great play, even amazing play sometimes, but overall Flash is just plain better. | ||
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tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On May 24 2009 07:17 TwoToneTerran wrote: I was making a point, and that point was your point sucked. Sucked horribly. Flash does everything, plain and simple, I didn't HAVE to point out that he does different cheeses and you are reading way too much into just that. Aside from that, He 'popularized' his TvP build the same way Fantasy did his TvZ, only he did it a year ago and won an OSL, whereas Fantasy did it recently and lost one. I'm not sure why you're crying 'dynamic' when Fantasy is literally just the flavor of the month. I'm not even saying Flash is performing better than Fantasy right now, but he has the better track record and was every bit as big an impact on TvP as Fantasy has been on TvZ, even though they've botth been performing subparly in those specific matches recently. That Flash has to win 2 OSLs before Fantasy wins one to prove he is atleast a rival is ridiculous. There is no clear cut terran best like there are for Protoss and Zerg right now. There's no Oov, no Boxer, no Nada -- it's a tight competition that varies monthly at this point. Flash was crazy enough to hold on to the best terran title for as long as he did. The difference between you and me right now isn't really that we both have a favorite 'best' terran, it's that you are almost rabid in trying to say that Fantasy is 100% better whereas I can admit BOTH are really damn good, and probably THE 2 S-class terrans, maybe with Leta bringing up a third. Take it easy... I'm not prepared to fight to the death over this! I'm only debating my assertion that fantasy is the best terran in the game right now. Obviously, we don't know for sure, but (for me) fantasy's recent OSL runner-up finishes are more convincing as a indicator of recent play than Flash's OSL a year ago. Has flash had the better career? Of course! But what I've been trying to say is that I think fantasy will win a starleague (maybe two) in the near future, and I just don't think flash will. For all the reasons I've said previously. I mean, the only way to find out is to keep watching. And I don't think fantasy is 100% better. He wasn't better last night, for example. But overall, yes I do think fantasy is better. On the other hand, my favorite Terran is BaBy and if I had my way, he'll win GOM and a win a starleague before he has to shave. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
... Baby is awesome. | ||
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Athos
United States2484 Posts
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darktreb
United States3017 Posts
On May 24 2009 03:50 tree.hugger wrote: Fantasy is better for two reasons: 1) He's been more impressive recently in starleagues. 2) This may strike people as not a reason at all, but it clinches the argument for me. Fantasy is more innovative and interesting. Alright, Flash is a complete beast, everything from his scv transfers to turret placement is perfect. But we know what we're going to get from Flash. He never varies his TvP style, or his TvT style, or his TvZ style. We like our top players with a spark of genius, and indeed, Bisu revolutionized PvZ, Jaedong revolutionized ZvZ, and Fantasy revolutionized TvZ. Amidst all of this we have Flash who stays strong with the same style, and has the same success. He's great, but I don't think he'll ever win a Starleague again. It's very possible to prepare specifically for him, and I think he's a perennial threat, but never a potential winner. Didn't this last game only make the series 2-2? So head-to-head they're even. But Fantasy is the better Terran overall, and will be for some time. EDIT: Oh, and Leta is not better than Fantasy at all. sKyHigh and Leta are about the same distance back, but make no mistake, they're in the back. Actually, and people who understand Terran better than me (I think Ver's made some good posts on this) can elaborate, Flash has been the driving force behind much of Terran's evolution over the past year or so. It's just that Fantasy's mech sticks out so much more because it's incredibly visible. Fantasy has certainly been more creative in series play, and is probably slightly more likely to win a league than Flash at the moment. But people really underestimate Flash's ability to advance in a league - this guy has made it very far in multiple leagues and won OSL (and GSI was impressive too). Taking a look at Flash's last 20 games is a great example of how the expectations of him in this forum are enormous. He NEVER loses to a mediocre player and rarely even loses to cheese. He rolls 60% even in his bad slumps. He only loses 4 games to players of the caliber of UpMagic, Best, Leta 2x, and this is after beating 3 other players on UpMagic's team that day already in WL, then going to play Best a few HOURS later, then going to play Leta the NEXT DAY (and one loss was to BBS, and no, he didn't 14CC). Flash loses to Jaedong on a good Terran map like RH3 (with the help of JD's smart hidden expo) and all of a sudden Jaedong is a heavy favorite if the two face off again (in spite of the fact that Flash straight rolled JD twice this year already, including in a game that decided who ADVANCED from MSL). Flash lost to Fantasy twice in PL, one game with the always annoying (and hard to defend) 14CC, and another game where he tried something tricky, loses to SkyHigh in MSL qualifiers, and to Leta in OSL. But he's also rolled Fantasy in straight up games in GSL S2 and last night. He absolutely DESTROYED SkyHigh in PL a week ago on "SkyHigh's map" Destination. He also put on a clinic against Leta in their next meeting as well, both of these game showcasing his elite late game TvT skill. There's no excusing the bad build orders, and not advancing in leagues. But to rate Flash properly, he should be rated against every other player on even ground, not on the raised expectation that he should essentially never lose which he establishes with each insane winning streak he goes on. Winning leagues is all that matters in the end, but just let's not forgot that he actually has won a league, and has made RO16 of something like 7 out of the last 8? Or is it 9 out of the last 10? He's also made RO8 4 or 5 times I believe, and RO4 3 times (sorry I don't remember the exact numbers), not counting GSI. I obviously don't know if this is true, but I'm willing to bet that every Terran progamer in Korea publicly or at least privately considers Flash to be the best Terran player out there, if not necessarily the most likely guy to win a league. For the league part, the next upcoming MSL and OSL are where he really needs to make a statement (and other KTF players need to give him a break...) | ||
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TheTeamLiquidTiger
United States627 Posts
i mean you've basically said everything................... | ||
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Zozma
United States1626 Posts
Anyway, you hit the nail on the head: Flash has lost to many other players, and he can't stand up to Bisu or Jaedong as he is now, so he's not the best Terran. Or if he is, that's only because there's no truly great Terran right now. | ||
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darktreb
United States3017 Posts
On May 24 2009 09:02 Zozma wrote: Give the BBS thing a rest. Flash went 14cc the first game, and Leta won the only standard game of the series. Anyway, you hit the nail on the head: Flash has lost to many other players, and he can't stand up to Bisu or Jaedong as he is now, so he's not the best Terran. Or if he is, that's only because there's no truly great Terran right now. Wait, what? He can't stand up to Jaedong because he's 2-1 against Jaedong in 2009? And nobody was arguing "truly great Terran", just best Terran. Only Bisu actually has Flash's number right now (and even then it's just 1-3 lately). If we want to list out the losses for Fantasy, Skyhigh, or Leta lately ... it could get ugly. I LOVE Skyhigh but that loss where he just walked out and got ling surrounded was flat out ugly. Fantasy was playing so poorly between his Stork OSL run and JD OSL run that he looked like a complete one-hit wonder. I mean, that's just a terrible way to make an argument all around. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
tree.hugger, you're obviously a big fanboy. ''Flash won, as he so often does, because he did everything right. That doesn't make him the best Terran.'' Explain to me how you do something better than if you do everything right?  And you claim Flash doesn't vary his style. That is simply not true. If I look at recent games I see MnM+Tank against P, that he is capable of playing both Bio and Mech against Zerg (whereas Fantasy can only do mech), he goes 2 Fac builds, 2 Port wraiths, 2 Fac 6 CC, 14 CC etc. Lots of variation. Of course he is going to lean more towards macro intensive builds and strats, because otherwise he would be an idiot; play on your strenghts, man. But to say he's not capable of varying his style is incorrect. As others have pointed out Flash wins against Fantasy every time they play straight up, and I just don't see how the ''best terran in the world'' can muster only 24 wins in PL. Flash has won the OSL, Fantasy has not. You need more than cute implementation of Valkyries to be considered the best. Flash is just better than Fantasy in almost every aspect IMO. I am however a big fan of Fantasy as well. The Fantasy build is absolutely beautiful and extremely well thought out. He sure is entertaining as hell to watch. I really want to see a new Golden Age of terran. There has been way to many golds won by nasty Zergs and coward Tosses lately. I'm hoping for an era where Flash, Fantasy and Leta rule the scene; The Terran Kings! Skyhigh is lurking slightly behind them ATM, if he continues to play well he can be a Duke or something. | ||
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