EPT[MSL] Ro16 Week 2-1 - Page 79
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KizZBG
u gotta skate8152 Posts
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36383 Posts
On February 20 2009 06:51 .risingdragoon wrote: you want to be convinced but good stuff takes time avoid the mcdonalds jokes, it's pretty obvious who's the angry one i'm done here till i finish. for reals this time. your user history is littered with warnings and temp bans about your nerd rage getting out of check. remember that time you tried to argue that 2009=2008? lol. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36383 Posts
On February 20 2009 06:53 RivetHead wrote: But 14cc isn't cheese? Are you just trying to rile him up or something. NEITHER overpool or 14 cc is cheese, simple as that. 14cc is 100% cheese | ||
CTStalker
Canada9720 Posts
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RivetHead
United States842 Posts
Cheese is a rush meant to end the game early (like first 5 mins), or cause such an advantage with the early attack that the cheeser will win in a straight up match after he damages his opponent enough. 14cc is the opposite of cheese. Its like calling the bisu build cheese or something. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36383 Posts
On February 20 2009 06:56 KizZBG wrote: lol how is 14CC cheese? jesus. I always thought it was a proxy or a quick attack within the first 5 mins of the game :/ "cheese" isnt a strict definition but more of a concept regarding overly risky play that turns the game into a 50-50 coinflip. what if a player goes 14cc, 18cc, 22cc for four command centers 4 bases before rax. that's not cheese? what is that build? just a "risky" eco build? whatever you label it, it still fits inside the concept. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36383 Posts
On February 20 2009 07:02 RivetHead wrote: Cheese is a rush meant to end the game early (like first 5 mins), or cause such an advantage with the early attack that the cheeser will win in a straight up match after he damages his opponent enough. 14cc is the opposite of cheese. Its like calling the bisu build cheese or something. 14cc and 14nex causes "such an advantage" with the super eco build that the 14cc'er or 14nex'er will win a straight up match if his opponent doesn't kill or severely damage him within the first 5 minutes. both 14cc and 5pool are builds meant to secure an advantage in the first few minutes of the game that is more often than not decisive to who wins, and relies on chance to not be scouted. do you really need someone to explain the difference between forge FE PvZ and 14cc no scout TvZ? are you serious? they are not even in the same realm, and i can no longer take any of your posts seriously after that. | ||
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KOFgokuon
United States14899 Posts
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
On February 19 2009 19:08 Hot_Bid wrote: LOOOOOOOOOL YES. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36383 Posts
On February 20 2009 07:06 KOFgokuon wrote: i'm still not convinced about 14 cc being cheese but w/e would you consider 3 CC's before rax cheese | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
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RivetHead
United States842 Posts
On February 20 2009 07:03 Hot_Bid wrote: "cheese" isnt a strict definition but more of a concept regarding overly risky play that turns the game into a 50-50 coinflip. what if a player goes 14cc, 18cc, 22cc for four command centers 4 bases before rax. that's not cheese? what is that build? just a "risky" eco build? whatever you label it, it still fits inside the concept. At the point anything can be considered in that bracket. Risky eco builds are not cheese, but just that, risky builds that attempt to get a faster economy going. If i play tvp straight up, there are still risks for everything i do. If i get an acadamy, ebay, and about 6 turrets after going 1 fac cc to 2 fac i am being safe, vs dts and reaver drops. But at the same time I am risking my opponant going for a heavy ground army and quick 3rd to counter my turtle. This is partly why flash lost vs bisu on medusa. You can blame the map all you want, but he was 1 fac 3 cc while bisu had like 4-8 gates going and was double expanding. Bisu had more units than Flash for a long time, so he therefore established map control. Worse, Bisu knew that flash couldn't even pump out units for a fast push even if he wanted to simply because he didnt enough factories at the right timing. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36383 Posts
On February 20 2009 07:10 RivetHead wrote: At the point anything can be considered in that bracket. Risky eco builds are not cheese, but just that, risky builds that attempt to get a faster economy going. If i play tvp straight up, there are still risks for everything i do. If i get an acadamy, ebay, and about 6 turrets after going 1 fac cc to 2 fac i am being safe, vs dts and reaver drops. But at the same time I am risking my opponant going for a heavy ground army and quick 3rd to counter my turtle. You are simply stating "risky eco builds are not cheese because they are not cheese." Simply stating it does not make it true. I still can't believe you compared 14cc to standard forge FE PvZ, one relies on scouting to adapt and get just enough defenses based on what you scout, and one is a blind abusive build that goes forward regardless of what your opponent does and autoloses to many standard builds. How can you post that 14cc = bisu build analogy with a straight face? Ridiculous. By your definition, five hatcheries before pool and forty command centers before rax are not cheese builds. They are just "risky eco builds". This is partly why flash lost vs bisu on medusa. You can blame the map all you want, but he was 1 fac 3 cc while bisu had like 4-8 gates going and was double expanding. Bisu had more units than Flash for a long time, so he therefore established map control. Worse, Bisu knew that flash couldn't even pump out units for a fast push even if he wanted to simply because he didnt enough factories at the right timing. I don't see how this has anything to do with the argument. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
I would consider 3hatch before pool a cheese. I also would consider a 12nex without scouting in PvZ a cheese. The Forge expand only transitions into 14nexus if you scout your opponent first. I'd also consider 12nexus vs T and especially P(well that's suicide) on maps without inside naturals a cheese. | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
9pool is not cheese. 9pool is not cheese. 9pool is not cheese. 9pool is not cheese. 9pool is not cheese. Seriously, get a fucking grip. | ||
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Breavman
Sweden598 Posts
Anyway it's useless to argue the exact definition of cheese. The point is you shouldn't go 14cc two games in a row and expect to get away with it. Maybe UpMagic can learn that lesson now, and other terrans can take note. | ||
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sung_moon
United States10110 Posts
wow that ride back home must of been awkward with lux advancing 2X | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36383 Posts
On February 20 2009 07:19 Breavman wrote: 14 cc is cheesier than 9 pool, because if you are unlucky it's autolose. You gamble and accept the risk in exchange for a significant advantage if the build succeeds. 9 pool on the other hand is super safe. It's a great anti cheese build. You always have a fighting chance no matter what with it and it's not always designed to kill or even hurt the opponent. Anyway it's useless to argue the exact definition of cheese. The point is you shouldn't go 14cc two games in a row and expect to get away with it. Maybe UpMagic can learn that lesson now, and other terrans can take note. exactly. 14cc is way riskier than 9 pool is, regardless of what you think "cheese" is defined as. | ||
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CDRdude
United States5625 Posts
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