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On February 20 2009 08:54 floor exercise wrote:
Cheese is not synonymous with risk. Neither 9 pool or 14cc are cheese.
Cheese has always been used to describe game-ending rush builds that come when your opponent has little or no means of defending against them. Cheese is mostly in the eye of the victim, for example, people without detection will call a dt rush cheese, they might call 1 hatch lurk cheese, etc.
The term is often used in place of "cheap." Think of it as a low blow, things of that nature. It's a silly excuse that people use when they are unprepared for something, that's really all it is. Neither 14cc or 9pool can be classified as cheesy or cheap in my eyes, and I think arguing what is absolutely cheese and what isn't is kinda dumb
Thank you. Pretty much my sentiments expressed in a much better way. This was mostly what I was trying to say.
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Braavos36374 Posts
On February 20 2009 08:54 floor exercise wrote:
Cheese is not synonymous with risk. Neither 9 pool or 14cc are cheese.
Cheese has always been used to describe game-ending rush builds that come when your opponent has little or no means of defending against them. Cheese is mostly in the eye of the victim, for example, people without detection will call a dt rush cheese, they might call 1 hatch lurk cheese, etc.
The term is often used in place of "cheap." Think of it as a low blow, things of that nature. It's a silly excuse that people use when they are unprepared for something, that's really all it is. Neither 14cc or 9pool can be classified as cheesy or cheap in my eyes, and I think arguing what is absolutely cheese and what isn't is kinda dumb
i completely disagree that 14cc isn't classified as "cheap" or "cheesy". look at savior's interview when he talks about upmagic doing a lot of "rock paper scissors builds". look at top foreigners reactions to builds that are done against them, or fans reactions to these types of builds.
if you don't think theres a hardline definition of cheese, look at how they are perceived. if a player does a build and wins with it, does it feel like they got away with something? does it feel like the better player won? whenever i read a live report about a 14cc and the player loses to 9p or whatever, its usually people getting pissed at the 14cc'er about doing such a stupid, greedy, cheesy build. same for 5 pool. to me, when a player successfully 14ccs, it seems like they stole something, the same way they steal something with a 5 pool. in the current environment with such great macro from so many players, the advantage secured by 14cc is huge. you're basically flipping a coin for significantly greater eco and faster tech than the other player, its the same type of advantage as a 5 pool except the effect isn't as tangible as 6 lings running to an opponent's base. the inability to associate this sort of gamble/reward with the "cheese" concept or whatever you want to call it does not change what a 14cc really is. it will never ever be the same category as a standard FE build.
the bottom line is 14cc and 4pool are very, very much alike in terms of risk and effect. if you think 14cc isn't cheese or cheap or allin or whatever, then make sure you understand that you are thus stating the exact same stuff about 4 pool too. if 14cc isn't ______, then 4 pool isn't either. just because one makes units and one doesn't isn't a good enough distinction.
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United States1865 Posts
On February 20 2009 09:38 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2009 08:54 floor exercise wrote:
Cheese is not synonymous with risk. Neither 9 pool or 14cc are cheese.
Cheese has always been used to describe game-ending rush builds that come when your opponent has little or no means of defending against them. Cheese is mostly in the eye of the victim, for example, people without detection will call a dt rush cheese, they might call 1 hatch lurk cheese, etc.
The term is often used in place of "cheap." Think of it as a low blow, things of that nature. It's a silly excuse that people use when they are unprepared for something, that's really all it is. Neither 14cc or 9pool can be classified as cheesy or cheap in my eyes, and I think arguing what is absolutely cheese and what isn't is kinda dumb i completely disagree that 14cc isn't classified as "cheap" or "cheesy". look at savior's interview when he talks about upmagic doing a lot of "rock paper scissors builds". look at top foreigners reactions to builds that are done against them, or fans reactions to these types of builds. if you don't think theres a hardline definition of cheese, look at how they are perceived. if a player does a build and wins with it, does it feel like they got away with something? does it feel like the better player won? whenever i read a live report about a 14cc and the player loses to 9p or whatever, its usually people getting pissed at the 14cc'er about doing such a stupid, greedy, cheesy build. same for 5 pool. to me, when a player successfully 14ccs, it seems like they stole something, the same way they steal something with a 5 pool. in the current environment with such great macro from so many players, the advantage secured by 14cc is huge. you're basically flipping a coin for significantly greater eco and faster tech than the other player, its the same type of advantage as a 5 pool except the effect isn't as tangible as 6 lings running to an opponent's base. the inability to associate this sort of gamble/reward with the "cheese" concept or whatever you want to call it does not change what a 14cc really is. it will never ever be the same category as a standard FE build. the bottom line is 14cc and 4pool are very, very much alike in terms of risk and effect. if you think 14cc isn't cheese or cheap or allin or whatever, then make sure you understand that you are thus stating the exact same stuff about 4 pool too. if 14cc isn't ______, then 4 pool isn't either. just because one makes units and one doesn't isn't a good enough distinction.
100% agree - too many people dont notice the crazy advantages gained from "economic cheeses" because they arent immediately tangible, but their effect is just the same, especially in this macro age.
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Upmagic got 2009pool'd!
I had to say it.
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I don't think it's fair for moderators to troll 
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
and according to you which moderator is trolling in this thread?
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after the player inflation trolling its hard to take hot bid's posts seriously about 14cc being cheese
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United States15034 Posts
On February 20 2009 11:12 floor exercise wrote:
after the player inflation trolling its hard to take hot bid's posts seriously about 14cc being cheese
unless you understand starcraft and realize he's right
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United States15034 Posts
lol at 14cc = forge FE which is a relatively safe build and is completely standard in pvz
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I don't think Hot_bid is a troll (or a mod, i think that color means contributer). He just has an idea that a year ago no one would probably agree with. I think the advantage gained from a 14cc vs a fast counter-expand isn't as great as he is trying to emphasize. Its not like if someone gets away with 14cc or 14 nex or 3 hatch pre-pool that they are going to win automatically, even if they make very few mistakes. As great as the mechanics of the top players are, they are still human and a slight advantage can easily be lost with a couple good plays by the opponent (succesful harrass for instance, as well as expanding and succeeding against the timing push).
I think a successful bbs, however, leaves almost no room for losing.
So if a bbs, 8 rax bunker rush, 4/5 pool, etc. rush is successful, it means that the game is basically over. Now there have been a few comebacks after a rush that takes out about 7-10 workers and/or a building, but its extremely rare.
What i meant about considering the bisu build cheese is that if you scout that the zerg is going 12 hatch in time you can fast nex. Now is that still considered cheese although he is at no risk (at least immediately, until a ling rush or whatever can reach him)? Do you have to scout first before a fast expand for it to not be considered cheese?
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On February 20 2009 11:24 RivetHead wrote:
I don't think Hot_bid is a troll (or a mod, i think that color means contributer). red characters = admin or mod
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On February 20 2009 08:54 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2009 08:35 Zozma wrote:Far be it from me to pass up an opportunity to brag: On February 13 2009 02:24 Zozma wrote:On February 13 2009 01:16 FaCE_1 wrote:
Flash can't lose.. he will winn all his game until he reach 20 years old :o Or until Leta crushes him and wins the series 2-1 next time. (posted this in the MSL ro16 1-1 thread) Incredible, don't pat yourself on the back too hard now. This aside I can't in good conscience be a Leta fan until he actually proves he can bio play against zerg. I have yet to see an MnM from him. Uh... what?
Leta has gone MnM. He's done it all the time. Are you blaming Leta for not going MnM because you don't watch games where he does go MnM?
And besides, what does going MnM have to do with skill? Look at Light and UpMagic, tearing it up in TvZ since the mech build has emerged.
Even if Leta went with his wraith build every single game, as long as he was consistently winning with it even against the planned counters of his opponents, what would be the problem with that?
I'll add some examples in a second.
Leta vs. GGplay on Chupung Ryeung
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/10983_GGPlay_vs_Leta/vod
Keke vs. Leta on Neo Harmony
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/10810_keke_vs_Leta/vod
Leta vs. by.Hero on Tears of the Moon
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/11148_by.hero_vs_Leta/vod
Leta vs. Great on Katrina SE
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9776_great_vs_Leta/vod
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14cc is not a cheese. If a lot people scream CHEESE in the live report when they see it, it is simply because they are easily overhyped and need to steam the strong vibes that come from seeing all those scvs in one place. Damn, it's not even an interesting strategy. What are those people screaming about? It is quite risky, tough. But risky strategies are not cheese. Rock, paper, scissor strats are not cheese either, otherwise 90% of ZvZ would be cheese.
Defined like that, cheese is really a meaningless word. Every strategy could be cheese.
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On February 20 2009 11:29 Zozma wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2009 08:54 Jayme wrote:On February 20 2009 08:35 Zozma wrote:Far be it from me to pass up an opportunity to brag: On February 13 2009 02:24 Zozma wrote:On February 13 2009 01:16 FaCE_1 wrote:
Flash can't lose.. he will winn all his game until he reach 20 years old :o Or until Leta crushes him and wins the series 2-1 next time. (posted this in the MSL ro16 1-1 thread) Incredible, don't pat yourself on the back too hard now. This aside I can't in good conscience be a Leta fan until he actually proves he can bio play against zerg. I have yet to see an MnM from him. Uh... what? Leta has gone MnM. He's done it all the time. Are you blaming Leta for not going MnM because you don't watch games where he does go MnM? And besides, what does going MnM have to do with skill? Look at Light and UpMagic, tearing it up in TvZ since the mech build has emerged. Even if Leta went with his wraith build every single game, as long as he was consistently winning with it even against the planned counters of his opponents, what would be the problem with that? I'll add some examples in a second.
Really? add some please that are RECENT. I don't really care much about something 7 months ago, but in the current meta game all he's been doing is mech.
There isn't a problem with mech persay except that it leads to an extraordinarily boring TvZ.. that and mech has a skill cap. Bio does NOT have a skill cap so it confuses me as to why a player of Leta's caliber refuses to go Bio lately. He should be all accounts be amazing at it, i'd just like to see it against a top zerg. It would at the very least be more entertaining.
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I edited them in. All fairly recent, from the Winners League, and the MSL Survivor tournament and the round of 32. Except for Leta vs. great.
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well I think the definition of cheese as: [Generally a strategy that will immediately result in a loss if scouted or defended] is correct, it's debatable whether there is a second requirement, namely that if the strategy is not scouted, it will immediately or ineveitably result in a win.
Obviously no strategy will guarantee a win or a loss just by being scouted, even an unscouted 4pool can theoretically be fended off. But the vast majority of times, certain build will win just through being scouted or not. And in the case of all-in's, a loss is all but guaranteed if the attack is defended (see hyvaa cs flash).
Builds that fulfill both definitions are 4/5 pool, center 2 gate, BBS
Builds that fulfill the first definition: 14CC, 12 nex (no scout), 3 hatch before pool
Builds that fulfill the second definition: dt rush
for this reason, I would consider the second definition generally more relevant to cheese as it is commonly understood. Strategies that conform to both definitions should be considered all-in cheeses.
That said, it is still possble to have all-ins that aren't cheese.
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Though Lights TvZ mech is undefeated, the difference is his TvZ is still/was still good with standard MnM play.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
In the end all that counts anyway is that a win is a win.
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On February 20 2009 12:18 Carnac wrote:
In the end all that counts anyway is that a win is a win. I think this man just solved this thread.
No matter how much anyone whines about cheese, the people who are through to the ro8 won't change. In the end, it's a purely academic question.
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I really do not know whether to laugh or cry at the irony of Flash fanboys whining and saying things like ''Die Leta, you cheesy bastard!'' because Flash is cheesed out of MSL.
I also do not know whether to laugh or cry at the fact that Leta won and Flash was knocked out. I'm a huge Leta fan, so to see him beat the (arguably) best player in the world in a BO3 was amazing. I do not think there can be any doubt of Leta greatness any more. He might very well win a Starleague this season. Go Leta! On the other hand, Flash did not deserve to be eliminated this early on. And in both Starleagues! WTF? IMO he could've won both of them if it wasn't for WL. It was really saddening to se him after the game. Let's just hope he doesn't get too mentally broken and goes into slump-mode. Without any individual leagues to think about he should be able to rack up a decent amount of all-kills in WL. Go Flash!
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EPT
