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[GOM] Classic Season 2 Finals (8/2) - Page 71

Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments
Post a Reply
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Lachrymose
Profile Joined February 2008
Australia1928 Posts
February 09 2009 00:21 GMT
#1401
On February 09 2009 09:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2009 09:09 Lachrymose wrote:
people seem to have this weird selective memory thing going with savior. good ol' nostalgia.

also mr avid you highlighting differences between savior's and bisu's 'runs' is actually you highlighting differences between saviors run and bisu's slump.

however bisu is not bonjwa and there will almost certainly not be another. he is the best player in the world though, even if he loses to jaedong. he starts favourite against any p and any t. this is enough.

No, people considered Savior a bonjwa at the end of his run. Before that, he was dominant the entire time.
People are considering Bisu a bonjwa right now. At this point in his career, he had a slump beforehand, which was not present during Savior's time when people considered him a bonjwa, that's the point I was trying to make.


So basically you're saying:
form->slump=bonjwa.
slump->form=never bonjwa no matter what.

?
~
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8552 Posts
February 09 2009 00:23 GMT
#1402
On February 09 2009 09:21 Lachrymose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2009 09:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:
On February 09 2009 09:09 Lachrymose wrote:
people seem to have this weird selective memory thing going with savior. good ol' nostalgia.

also mr avid you highlighting differences between savior's and bisu's 'runs' is actually you highlighting differences between saviors run and bisu's slump.

however bisu is not bonjwa and there will almost certainly not be another. he is the best player in the world though, even if he loses to jaedong. he starts favourite against any p and any t. this is enough.

No, people considered Savior a bonjwa at the end of his run. Before that, he was dominant the entire time.
People are considering Bisu a bonjwa right now. At this point in his career, he had a slump beforehand, which was not present during Savior's time when people considered him a bonjwa, that's the point I was trying to make.


So basically you're saying:
form->slump=bonjwa.
slump->form=never bonjwa no matter what.

?

No, this was a reply to the guy who quoted me and said he didn't see any differences between Savior and Bisu in my post.
Jaedong
disciple
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
9070 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-09 00:32:22
February 09 2009 00:29 GMT
#1403
btw bisu might never play a pvz on tears this season. if he manages to advance from his group he will have the chance to thumbs down this map and to avoid playing on it ...
And am I the only one with the impression that daniel lee is a huge fan of bisu...judging by his comments to say at least
Administrator"I'm a big deal." - ixmike88
Lachrymose
Profile Joined February 2008
Australia1928 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-09 00:39:38
February 09 2009 00:32 GMT
#1404
On February 09 2009 09:23 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2009 09:21 Lachrymose wrote:
On February 09 2009 09:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:
On February 09 2009 09:09 Lachrymose wrote:
people seem to have this weird selective memory thing going with savior. good ol' nostalgia.

also mr avid you highlighting differences between savior's and bisu's 'runs' is actually you highlighting differences between saviors run and bisu's slump.

however bisu is not bonjwa and there will almost certainly not be another. he is the best player in the world though, even if he loses to jaedong. he starts favourite against any p and any t. this is enough.

No, people considered Savior a bonjwa at the end of his run. Before that, he was dominant the entire time.
People are considering Bisu a bonjwa right now. At this point in his career, he had a slump beforehand, which was not present during Savior's time when people considered him a bonjwa, that's the point I was trying to make.


So basically you're saying:
form->slump=bonjwa.
slump->form=never bonjwa no matter what.

?

No, this was a reply to the guy who quoted me and said he didn't see any differences between Savior and Bisu in my post.


yes, but your reply essentially says bisu already slumped before reaching bonjwa. (*thus never reaching bonjwa)

im asking if it is impossible for him to do so now or if he has to dominate even harder than previous bonjwas to 'make up' for his slump or if he merely needs to dominate to the same degree as the others for an appreciable period of time.

i think the only answer is the last one but im curious to see what others think.

*edited for clarity
~
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8552 Posts
February 09 2009 00:32 GMT
#1405
On February 09 2009 09:29 disciple wrote:
btw bisu might never play a pvz on tears this season. if he manages to advance from his group he will have the chance to thumbs down this map and to avoid playing on it

I doubt he will beat JulyZerg, but even if he finishes second, he could play a terran instead since the Terrans in the individual leagues on average are better overall than the zergs.
Jaedong
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8552 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-09 00:37:02
February 09 2009 00:34 GMT
#1406
On February 09 2009 09:32 Lachrymose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2009 09:23 Avidkeystamper wrote:
On February 09 2009 09:21 Lachrymose wrote:
On February 09 2009 09:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:
On February 09 2009 09:09 Lachrymose wrote:
people seem to have this weird selective memory thing going with savior. good ol' nostalgia.

also mr avid you highlighting differences between savior's and bisu's 'runs' is actually you highlighting differences between saviors run and bisu's slump.

however bisu is not bonjwa and there will almost certainly not be another. he is the best player in the world though, even if he loses to jaedong. he starts favourite against any p and any t. this is enough.

No, people considered Savior a bonjwa at the end of his run. Before that, he was dominant the entire time.
People are considering Bisu a bonjwa right now. At this point in his career, he had a slump beforehand, which was not present during Savior's time when people considered him a bonjwa, that's the point I was trying to make.


So basically you're saying:
form->slump=bonjwa.
slump->form=never bonjwa no matter what.

?

No, this was a reply to the guy who quoted me and said he didn't see any differences between Savior and Bisu in my post.


yes, but your reply essentially says bisu already slumped before reaching bonjwa.

im asking if it is impossible for him to do so now or if he has to dominate even harder than previous bonjwas to 'make up' for his slump or if he merely needs to dominate to the same degree as the others for an appreciable period of time.

i think the only answer is the last one but im curious to see what others think.

When did Bisu reach bonjwa? If you are talking about right now, then he's slumped already, if you are talking about Gom S3, the general consenesus is that he wasn't a bonjwa at that time.

Obviously, the general consensus right now is that he needs to win the OSL in a convincing and dominating fashion that separates him from the rest of the S- class progamers. I mean undoubtedley separate him.
Jaedong
ShaLLoW[baY]
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada12499 Posts
February 09 2009 00:50 GMT
#1407
I know it's a bad idea to mention on these here boards, but there's a thread on 4chan currently dedicated to discussing these finals :p
ALEXISONFIRE ARE FUCKING BACK (sAviOr for life)
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-09 01:07:15
February 09 2009 01:06 GMT
#1408
On February 09 2009 08:43 MamiyaOtaru wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2009 07:28 sonicmerlin wrote:But Bisu is after all the only Toss to ever make it to #1 in the Kespa rankings.


He was the first. Stork followed shortly thereafter, and was #1 as recently as last month IIRC


I was curious so I went back and marked top KeSPA...

11/2001 - 03/2003 Boxer
04/2003 - 07/2004 NaDa
08/2004 - 03/2005 oov
04/2005 - 02/2006 July
03/2006 - 06/2006 oov
07/2006 - 10/2006 ChoJJa
11/2006 -------------- sAviOr
12/2006 -------------- NaDa
01/2007 - 08/2007 sAviOr
09/2007 -------------- Bisu
10/2007 -------------- Stork
11/2007 - 12/2007 Bisu
01/2008 -------------- Stork
02/2008 -------------- Bisu
03/2008 - 06/2008 Jaedong
07/2008 - 11/2008 FlaSh
12/2008 - 01/2009 Stork
02/2009 - Present Bisu


Boxer = 17 months
NaDa = 17 months (16+1)
oov = 12 months (8+4)
July = 11 months
sAviOr = 9 months (1+8)
Flash = 5 months
Bisu = 5 months (1+2+1+1)
Jaedong = 4 months
ChoJJa = 4 months
Stork = 4 months (1+1+2)

Well, the dominance of the top players (aside from July.. as he doesn't have the amount of league wins to be considered bonjwa) seems to be 9+ months atop KeSPA if we we're to go by looking at these stats... just another analysis.

However, the amount of games played now is drastically more than they were playing back then... so theoretically 4-5 months should be comparible to the 9+ months put up by the other players. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, etc. have all played a comparible amount of games with 75%+ winrate against their peers BUT BUT BUT they haven't be clearly dominant over their rivals like Boxer, NaDa, oov, and sAviOr were.


---------------------------------

Anyway, as for "bonjwa" IMO

If Bisu can:

1. Keep up his dominance (aka 75%+ winrate that he has going since Oct last year)
2. Beat Jaedong Bo5 (Feb 22nd... preferably 3-1 or 3-0)
3. Win this OSL with the unfavorable toss maps (going through a couple of Leta/Flash/Jaedong/Stork/etc.).

I'd say that would be a good case for him with the MSL, OSL, and GOM titles plus dominance of peers.
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
Aphelion
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States2720 Posts
February 09 2009 04:26 GMT
#1409
I personally feel that being Bonjwa is impossible in this day and age - that era died with Savior's MSL loss.

Bisu will however, be one of the best, accomplished, celebrated and influential players in SC ever.
But Garimto was always more than just a Protoss...
RowdierBob
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Australia13007 Posts
February 09 2009 04:31 GMT
#1410
How was Chojja on top for four months?

What a rubbish player.
"Terrans are pretty much space-Australians" - H
bias-
Profile Joined October 2004
United States410 Posts
February 09 2009 04:50 GMT
#1411
On February 07 2009 07:45 disciple wrote:
Bisu 3
JangBi 1


this man wins a few internets
For serious minds, a bias recognized is a bias sterilized.
29 fps
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States5724 Posts
February 09 2009 05:04 GMT
#1412
when will this bisu vs jaedong Bo5 be? sounds like its gonna be super awesome! (oh, and what's it for? what reason?)
4v4 is a battle of who has the better computer.
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8552 Posts
February 09 2009 05:08 GMT
#1413
On February 09 2009 14:04 29 fps wrote:
when will this bisu vs jaedong Bo5 be? sounds like its gonna be super awesome! (oh, and what's it for? what reason?)

Read the thread please, Feb 22. Apparently 8k US dollars is on the line. it's GSL S1 Champion vs GSL S2 Champion
Jaedong
cujo2k
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada1044 Posts
February 09 2009 05:09 GMT
#1414
On February 09 2009 14:04 29 fps wrote:
when will this bisu vs jaedong Bo5 be? sounds like its gonna be super awesome! (oh, and what's it for? what reason?)

Because Jaedong won season 1 and Bisu won season 2, so they plan on crowning a champ of both seasons or something.
THE ANSWER IS 288
Kuja900
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States3564 Posts
February 09 2009 05:24 GMT
#1415
On February 09 2009 10:06 eshlow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2009 08:43 MamiyaOtaru wrote:
On February 09 2009 07:28 sonicmerlin wrote:But Bisu is after all the only Toss to ever make it to #1 in the Kespa rankings.


He was the first. Stork followed shortly thereafter, and was #1 as recently as last month IIRC


I was curious so I went back and marked top KeSPA...

11/2001 - 03/2003 Boxer
04/2003 - 07/2004 NaDa
08/2004 - 03/2005 oov
04/2005 - 02/2006 July
03/2006 - 06/2006 oov
07/2006 - 10/2006 ChoJJa
11/2006 -------------- sAviOr
12/2006 -------------- NaDa
01/2007 - 08/2007 sAviOr
09/2007 -------------- Bisu
10/2007 -------------- Stork
11/2007 - 12/2007 Bisu
01/2008 -------------- Stork
02/2008 -------------- Bisu
03/2008 - 06/2008 Jaedong
07/2008 - 11/2008 FlaSh
12/2008 - 01/2009 Stork
02/2009 - Present Bisu


Boxer = 17 months
NaDa = 17 months (16+1)
oov = 12 months (8+4)
July = 11 months
sAviOr = 9 months (1+8)
Flash = 5 months
Bisu = 5 months (1+2+1+1)
Jaedong = 4 months
ChoJJa = 4 months
Stork = 4 months (1+1+2)

Well, the dominance of the top players (aside from July.. as he doesn't have the amount of league wins to be considered bonjwa) seems to be 9+ months atop KeSPA if we we're to go by looking at these stats... just another analysis.

However, the amount of games played now is drastically more than they were playing back then... so theoretically 4-5 months should be comparible to the 9+ months put up by the other players. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, etc. have all played a comparible amount of games with 75%+ winrate against their peers BUT BUT BUT they haven't be clearly dominant over their rivals like Boxer, NaDa, oov, and sAviOr were.


---------------------------------

Anyway, as for "bonjwa" IMO

If Bisu can:

1. Keep up his dominance (aka 75%+ winrate that he has going since Oct last year)
2. Beat Jaedong Bo5 (Feb 22nd... preferably 3-1 or 3-0)
3. Win this OSL with the unfavorable toss maps (going through a couple of Leta/Flash/Jaedong/Stork/etc.).

I'd say that would be a good case for him with the MSL, OSL, and GOM titles plus dominance of peers.


July (minus the GSL cause its not a factor in bonjwa case imo) has 3 osl wins and bisu has 3 msl wins, July has been in osl final 5 times and bisu has been in msl final 4 times. How does july lack the league credentials?

Its also july who bisu needs to beat in a bo5 on his road to bonjwa if he does become one (which i dont think he will). July ezmodes every protoss in the scene atm hes far and away the best zvper atm with only jaedong in his stratosphere in that matchup. In july v bisu july is the favorite and its a bo5 id give my left nut to see.
OMG you nasty gurl
ambit!ous1
Profile Joined September 2007
United States3662 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-09 05:40:36
February 09 2009 05:25 GMT
#1416
ooops wrong thread sorry
Bisu[Shield] / ♔ SoYeon
Oystein
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Norway1602 Posts
February 09 2009 05:45 GMT
#1417
On February 09 2009 14:24 Kuja900 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2009 10:06 eshlow wrote:
On February 09 2009 08:43 MamiyaOtaru wrote:
On February 09 2009 07:28 sonicmerlin wrote:But Bisu is after all the only Toss to ever make it to #1 in the Kespa rankings.


He was the first. Stork followed shortly thereafter, and was #1 as recently as last month IIRC


I was curious so I went back and marked top KeSPA...

11/2001 - 03/2003 Boxer
04/2003 - 07/2004 NaDa
08/2004 - 03/2005 oov
04/2005 - 02/2006 July
03/2006 - 06/2006 oov
07/2006 - 10/2006 ChoJJa
11/2006 -------------- sAviOr
12/2006 -------------- NaDa
01/2007 - 08/2007 sAviOr
09/2007 -------------- Bisu
10/2007 -------------- Stork
11/2007 - 12/2007 Bisu
01/2008 -------------- Stork
02/2008 -------------- Bisu
03/2008 - 06/2008 Jaedong
07/2008 - 11/2008 FlaSh
12/2008 - 01/2009 Stork
02/2009 - Present Bisu


Boxer = 17 months
NaDa = 17 months (16+1)
oov = 12 months (8+4)
July = 11 months
sAviOr = 9 months (1+8)
Flash = 5 months
Bisu = 5 months (1+2+1+1)
Jaedong = 4 months
ChoJJa = 4 months
Stork = 4 months (1+1+2)

Well, the dominance of the top players (aside from July.. as he doesn't have the amount of league wins to be considered bonjwa) seems to be 9+ months atop KeSPA if we we're to go by looking at these stats... just another analysis.

However, the amount of games played now is drastically more than they were playing back then... so theoretically 4-5 months should be comparible to the 9+ months put up by the other players. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, etc. have all played a comparible amount of games with 75%+ winrate against their peers BUT BUT BUT they haven't be clearly dominant over their rivals like Boxer, NaDa, oov, and sAviOr were.


---------------------------------

Anyway, as for "bonjwa" IMO

If Bisu can:

1. Keep up his dominance (aka 75%+ winrate that he has going since Oct last year)
2. Beat Jaedong Bo5 (Feb 22nd... preferably 3-1 or 3-0)
3. Win this OSL with the unfavorable toss maps (going through a couple of Leta/Flash/Jaedong/Stork/etc.).

I'd say that would be a good case for him with the MSL, OSL, and GOM titles plus dominance of peers.


July (minus the GSL cause its not a factor in bonjwa case imo) has 3 osl wins and bisu has 3 msl wins, July has been in osl final 5 times and bisu has been in msl final 4 times. How does july lack the league credentials?

Its also july who bisu needs to beat in a bo5 on his road to bonjwa if he does become one (which i dont think he will). July ezmodes every protoss in the scene atm hes far and away the best zvper atm with only jaedong in his stratosphere in that matchup. In july v bisu july is the favorite and its a bo5 id give my left nut to see.

Considered Bisu have beaten him both times it really mattered (the tiebreakers in OSL, where he lost both group games vs him) I don`t see how you can put him as favorite, especially considered bisu is a clutch series player when the stakes are high, tho july has the score advantage 3-2 vs him. I would say its pretty much a tossup, but I would love to see them in a BO5 :D
God Hates a Coward
Garnet
Profile Blog Joined February 2006
Vietnam9021 Posts
February 09 2009 10:11 GMT
#1418
Bisu is too good at SC and too bad at being a man.
IMlemon
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Lithuania296 Posts
February 09 2009 11:42 GMT
#1419
Am I the only one thinking that winning two leagues -> slump -> winning two more is far more consistent then winning 4 -> slumping forever?
My future's so bright, I gotta wear shades.
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-09 12:54:41
February 09 2009 12:54 GMT
#1420
On February 09 2009 14:24 Kuja900 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2009 10:06 eshlow wrote:
On February 09 2009 08:43 MamiyaOtaru wrote:
On February 09 2009 07:28 sonicmerlin wrote:But Bisu is after all the only Toss to ever make it to #1 in the Kespa rankings.


He was the first. Stork followed shortly thereafter, and was #1 as recently as last month IIRC


I was curious so I went back and marked top KeSPA...

11/2001 - 03/2003 Boxer
04/2003 - 07/2004 NaDa
08/2004 - 03/2005 oov
04/2005 - 02/2006 July
03/2006 - 06/2006 oov
07/2006 - 10/2006 ChoJJa
11/2006 -------------- sAviOr
12/2006 -------------- NaDa
01/2007 - 08/2007 sAviOr
09/2007 -------------- Bisu
10/2007 -------------- Stork
11/2007 - 12/2007 Bisu
01/2008 -------------- Stork
02/2008 -------------- Bisu
03/2008 - 06/2008 Jaedong
07/2008 - 11/2008 FlaSh
12/2008 - 01/2009 Stork
02/2009 - Present Bisu


Boxer = 17 months
NaDa = 17 months (16+1)
oov = 12 months (8+4)
July = 11 months
sAviOr = 9 months (1+8)
Flash = 5 months
Bisu = 5 months (1+2+1+1)
Jaedong = 4 months
ChoJJa = 4 months
Stork = 4 months (1+1+2)

Well, the dominance of the top players (aside from July.. as he doesn't have the amount of league wins to be considered bonjwa) seems to be 9+ months atop KeSPA if we we're to go by looking at these stats... just another analysis.

However, the amount of games played now is drastically more than they were playing back then... so theoretically 4-5 months should be comparible to the 9+ months put up by the other players. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, etc. have all played a comparible amount of games with 75%+ winrate against their peers BUT BUT BUT they haven't be clearly dominant over their rivals like Boxer, NaDa, oov, and sAviOr were.


---------------------------------

Anyway, as for "bonjwa" IMO

If Bisu can:

1. Keep up his dominance (aka 75%+ winrate that he has going since Oct last year)
2. Beat Jaedong Bo5 (Feb 22nd... preferably 3-1 or 3-0)
3. Win this OSL with the unfavorable toss maps (going through a couple of Leta/Flash/Jaedong/Stork/etc.).

I'd say that would be a good case for him with the MSL, OSL, and GOM titles plus dominance of peers.


July (minus the GSL cause its not a factor in bonjwa case imo) has 3 osl wins and bisu has 3 msl wins, July has been in osl final 5 times and bisu has been in msl final 4 times. How does july lack the league credentials?

Its also july who bisu needs to beat in a bo5 on his road to bonjwa if he does become one (which i dont think he will). July ezmodes every protoss in the scene atm hes far and away the best zvper atm with only jaedong in his stratosphere in that matchup. In july v bisu july is the favorite and its a bo5 id give my left nut to see.


That's not what I said. This is what I said...

"aside from July.. as he doesn't have the amount of league wins to be considered bonjwa"

No one considers him a bonwja because even though he was comparable to oov for a period of time while oov was dominating pretty much everyone BUT July... he doesn't have the amount of league titles to backup a claim to bonwja (in the context of being on top of KeSPA).
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
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