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On February 09 2009 09:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2009 09:09 Lachrymose wrote:
people seem to have this weird selective memory thing going with savior. good ol' nostalgia.
also mr avid you highlighting differences between savior's and bisu's 'runs' is actually you highlighting differences between saviors run and bisu's slump.
however bisu is not bonjwa and there will almost certainly not be another. he is the best player in the world though, even if he loses to jaedong. he starts favourite against any p and any t. this is enough. No, people considered Savior a bonjwa at the end of his run. Before that, he was dominant the entire time. People are considering Bisu a bonjwa right now. At this point in his career, he had a slump beforehand, which was not present during Savior's time when people considered him a bonjwa, that's the point I was trying to make.
So basically you're saying:
form->slump=bonjwa.
slump->form=never bonjwa no matter what.
?
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On February 09 2009 09:21 Lachrymose wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2009 09:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:On February 09 2009 09:09 Lachrymose wrote:
people seem to have this weird selective memory thing going with savior. good ol' nostalgia.
also mr avid you highlighting differences between savior's and bisu's 'runs' is actually you highlighting differences between saviors run and bisu's slump.
however bisu is not bonjwa and there will almost certainly not be another. he is the best player in the world though, even if he loses to jaedong. he starts favourite against any p and any t. this is enough. No, people considered Savior a bonjwa at the end of his run. Before that, he was dominant the entire time. People are considering Bisu a bonjwa right now. At this point in his career, he had a slump beforehand, which was not present during Savior's time when people considered him a bonjwa, that's the point I was trying to make. So basically you're saying: form->slump=bonjwa. slump->form=never bonjwa no matter what. ?
No, this was a reply to the guy who quoted me and said he didn't see any differences between Savior and Bisu in my post.
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9071 Posts
btw bisu might never play a pvz on tears this season. if he manages to advance from his group he will have the chance to thumbs down this map and to avoid playing on it ...
And am I the only one with the impression that daniel lee is a huge fan of bisu...judging by his comments to say at least
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On February 09 2009 09:23 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2009 09:21 Lachrymose wrote:On February 09 2009 09:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:On February 09 2009 09:09 Lachrymose wrote:
people seem to have this weird selective memory thing going with savior. good ol' nostalgia.
also mr avid you highlighting differences between savior's and bisu's 'runs' is actually you highlighting differences between saviors run and bisu's slump.
however bisu is not bonjwa and there will almost certainly not be another. he is the best player in the world though, even if he loses to jaedong. he starts favourite against any p and any t. this is enough. No, people considered Savior a bonjwa at the end of his run. Before that, he was dominant the entire time. People are considering Bisu a bonjwa right now. At this point in his career, he had a slump beforehand, which was not present during Savior's time when people considered him a bonjwa, that's the point I was trying to make. So basically you're saying: form->slump=bonjwa. slump->form=never bonjwa no matter what. ? No, this was a reply to the guy who quoted me and said he didn't see any differences between Savior and Bisu in my post.
yes, but your reply essentially says bisu already slumped before reaching bonjwa. (*thus never reaching bonjwa)
im asking if it is impossible for him to do so now or if he has to dominate even harder than previous bonjwas to 'make up' for his slump or if he merely needs to dominate to the same degree as the others for an appreciable period of time.
i think the only answer is the last one but im curious to see what others think.
*edited for clarity
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On February 09 2009 09:29 disciple wrote:
btw bisu might never play a pvz on tears this season. if he manages to advance from his group he will have the chance to thumbs down this map and to avoid playing on it
I doubt he will beat JulyZerg, but even if he finishes second, he could play a terran instead since the Terrans in the individual leagues on average are better overall than the zergs.
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On February 09 2009 09:32 Lachrymose wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2009 09:23 Avidkeystamper wrote:On February 09 2009 09:21 Lachrymose wrote:On February 09 2009 09:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:On February 09 2009 09:09 Lachrymose wrote:
people seem to have this weird selective memory thing going with savior. good ol' nostalgia.
also mr avid you highlighting differences between savior's and bisu's 'runs' is actually you highlighting differences between saviors run and bisu's slump.
however bisu is not bonjwa and there will almost certainly not be another. he is the best player in the world though, even if he loses to jaedong. he starts favourite against any p and any t. this is enough. No, people considered Savior a bonjwa at the end of his run. Before that, he was dominant the entire time. People are considering Bisu a bonjwa right now. At this point in his career, he had a slump beforehand, which was not present during Savior's time when people considered him a bonjwa, that's the point I was trying to make. So basically you're saying: form->slump=bonjwa. slump->form=never bonjwa no matter what. ? No, this was a reply to the guy who quoted me and said he didn't see any differences between Savior and Bisu in my post. yes, but your reply essentially says bisu already slumped before reaching bonjwa. im asking if it is impossible for him to do so now or if he has to dominate even harder than previous bonjwas to 'make up' for his slump or if he merely needs to dominate to the same degree as the others for an appreciable period of time. i think the only answer is the last one but im curious to see what others think.
When did Bisu reach bonjwa? If you are talking about right now, then he's slumped already, if you are talking about Gom S3, the general consenesus is that he wasn't a bonjwa at that time.
Obviously, the general consensus right now is that he needs to win the OSL in a convincing and dominating fashion that separates him from the rest of the S- class progamers. I mean undoubtedley separate him.
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I know it's a bad idea to mention on these here boards, but there's a thread on 4chan currently dedicated to discussing these finals :p
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On February 09 2009 08:43 MamiyaOtaru wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2009 07:28 sonicmerlin wrote:But Bisu is after all the only Toss to ever make it to #1 in the Kespa rankings. He was the first. Stork followed shortly thereafter, and was #1 as recently as last month IIRC
I was curious so I went back and marked top KeSPA...
11/2001 - 03/2003 Boxer
04/2003 - 07/2004 NaDa
08/2004 - 03/2005 oov
04/2005 - 02/2006 July
03/2006 - 06/2006 oov
07/2006 - 10/2006 ChoJJa
11/2006 -------------- sAviOr
12/2006 -------------- NaDa
01/2007 - 08/2007 sAviOr
09/2007 -------------- Bisu
10/2007 -------------- Stork
11/2007 - 12/2007 Bisu
01/2008 -------------- Stork
02/2008 -------------- Bisu
03/2008 - 06/2008 Jaedong
07/2008 - 11/2008 FlaSh
12/2008 - 01/2009 Stork
02/2009 - Present Bisu
Boxer = 17 months
NaDa = 17 months (16+1)
oov = 12 months (8+4)
July = 11 months
sAviOr = 9 months (1+8)
Flash = 5 months
Bisu = 5 months (1+2+1+1)
Jaedong = 4 months
ChoJJa = 4 months
Stork = 4 months (1+1+2)
Well, the dominance of the top players (aside from July.. as he doesn't have the amount of league wins to be considered bonjwa) seems to be 9+ months atop KeSPA if we we're to go by looking at these stats... just another analysis. 
However, the amount of games played now is drastically more than they were playing back then... so theoretically 4-5 months should be comparible to the 9+ months put up by the other players. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, etc. have all played a comparible amount of games with 75%+ winrate against their peers BUT BUT BUT they haven't be clearly dominant over their rivals like Boxer, NaDa, oov, and sAviOr were.
---------------------------------
Anyway, as for "bonjwa" IMO
If Bisu can:
1. Keep up his dominance (aka 75%+ winrate that he has going since Oct last year)
2. Beat Jaedong Bo5 (Feb 22nd... preferably 3-1 or 3-0)
3. Win this OSL with the unfavorable toss maps (going through a couple of Leta/Flash/Jaedong/Stork/etc.).
I'd say that would be a good case for him with the MSL, OSL, and GOM titles plus dominance of peers.
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I personally feel that being Bonjwa is impossible in this day and age - that era died with Savior's MSL loss.
Bisu will however, be one of the best, accomplished, celebrated and influential players in SC ever.
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How was Chojja on top for four months?
What a rubbish player.
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On February 07 2009 07:45 disciple wrote:
Bisu 3
JangBi 1
this man wins a few internets
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when will this bisu vs jaedong Bo5 be? sounds like its gonna be super awesome! (oh, and what's it for? what reason?)
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On February 09 2009 14:04 29 fps wrote:
when will this bisu vs jaedong Bo5 be? sounds like its gonna be super awesome! (oh, and what's it for? what reason?)
Read the thread please, Feb 22. Apparently 8k US dollars is on the line. it's GSL S1 Champion vs GSL S2 Champion
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On February 09 2009 14:04 29 fps wrote:
when will this bisu vs jaedong Bo5 be? sounds like its gonna be super awesome! (oh, and what's it for? what reason?)
Because Jaedong won season 1 and Bisu won season 2, so they plan on crowning a champ of both seasons or something.
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On February 09 2009 10:06 eshlow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2009 08:43 MamiyaOtaru wrote:On February 09 2009 07:28 sonicmerlin wrote:But Bisu is after all the only Toss to ever make it to #1 in the Kespa rankings. He was the first. Stork followed shortly thereafter, and was #1 as recently as last month IIRC I was curious so I went back and marked top KeSPA... 11/2001 - 03/2003 Boxer 04/2003 - 07/2004 NaDa 08/2004 - 03/2005 oov 04/2005 - 02/2006 July 03/2006 - 06/2006 oov 07/2006 - 10/2006 ChoJJa 11/2006 -------------- sAviOr 12/2006 -------------- NaDa 01/2007 - 08/2007 sAviOr 09/2007 -------------- Bisu 10/2007 -------------- Stork 11/2007 - 12/2007 Bisu 01/2008 -------------- Stork 02/2008 -------------- Bisu 03/2008 - 06/2008 Jaedong 07/2008 - 11/2008 FlaSh 12/2008 - 01/2009 Stork 02/2009 - Present Bisu Boxer = 17 months NaDa = 17 months (16+1) oov = 12 months (8+4) July = 11 months sAviOr = 9 months (1+8) Flash = 5 months Bisu = 5 months (1+2+1+1) Jaedong = 4 months ChoJJa = 4 months Stork = 4 months (1+1+2) Well, the dominance of the top players (aside from July.. as he doesn't have the amount of league wins to be considered bonjwa) seems to be 9+ months atop KeSPA if we we're to go by looking at these stats... just another analysis. However, the amount of games played now is drastically more than they were playing back then... so theoretically 4-5 months should be comparible to the 9+ months put up by the other players. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, etc. have all played a comparible amount of games with 75%+ winrate against their peers BUT BUT BUT they haven't be clearly dominant over their rivals like Boxer, NaDa, oov, and sAviOr were. --------------------------------- Anyway, as for "bonjwa" IMO If Bisu can: 1. Keep up his dominance (aka 75%+ winrate that he has going since Oct last year) 2. Beat Jaedong Bo5 (Feb 22nd... preferably 3-1 or 3-0) 3. Win this OSL with the unfavorable toss maps (going through a couple of Leta/Flash/Jaedong/Stork/etc.). I'd say that would be a good case for him with the MSL, OSL, and GOM titles plus dominance of peers.
July (minus the GSL cause its not a factor in bonjwa case imo) has 3 osl wins and bisu has 3 msl wins, July has been in osl final 5 times and bisu has been in msl final 4 times. How does july lack the league credentials?
Its also july who bisu needs to beat in a bo5 on his road to bonjwa if he does become one (which i dont think he will). July ezmodes every protoss in the scene atm hes far and away the best zvper atm with only jaedong in his stratosphere in that matchup. In july v bisu july is the favorite and its a bo5 id give my left nut to see.
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On February 09 2009 14:24 Kuja900 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2009 10:06 eshlow wrote:On February 09 2009 08:43 MamiyaOtaru wrote:On February 09 2009 07:28 sonicmerlin wrote:But Bisu is after all the only Toss to ever make it to #1 in the Kespa rankings. He was the first. Stork followed shortly thereafter, and was #1 as recently as last month IIRC I was curious so I went back and marked top KeSPA... 11/2001 - 03/2003 Boxer 04/2003 - 07/2004 NaDa 08/2004 - 03/2005 oov 04/2005 - 02/2006 July 03/2006 - 06/2006 oov 07/2006 - 10/2006 ChoJJa 11/2006 -------------- sAviOr 12/2006 -------------- NaDa 01/2007 - 08/2007 sAviOr 09/2007 -------------- Bisu 10/2007 -------------- Stork 11/2007 - 12/2007 Bisu 01/2008 -------------- Stork 02/2008 -------------- Bisu 03/2008 - 06/2008 Jaedong 07/2008 - 11/2008 FlaSh 12/2008 - 01/2009 Stork 02/2009 - Present Bisu Boxer = 17 months NaDa = 17 months (16+1) oov = 12 months (8+4) July = 11 months sAviOr = 9 months (1+8) Flash = 5 months Bisu = 5 months (1+2+1+1) Jaedong = 4 months ChoJJa = 4 months Stork = 4 months (1+1+2) Well, the dominance of the top players (aside from July.. as he doesn't have the amount of league wins to be considered bonjwa) seems to be 9+ months atop KeSPA if we we're to go by looking at these stats... just another analysis. However, the amount of games played now is drastically more than they were playing back then... so theoretically 4-5 months should be comparible to the 9+ months put up by the other players. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, etc. have all played a comparible amount of games with 75%+ winrate against their peers BUT BUT BUT they haven't be clearly dominant over their rivals like Boxer, NaDa, oov, and sAviOr were. --------------------------------- Anyway, as for "bonjwa" IMO If Bisu can: 1. Keep up his dominance (aka 75%+ winrate that he has going since Oct last year) 2. Beat Jaedong Bo5 (Feb 22nd... preferably 3-1 or 3-0) 3. Win this OSL with the unfavorable toss maps (going through a couple of Leta/Flash/Jaedong/Stork/etc.). I'd say that would be a good case for him with the MSL, OSL, and GOM titles plus dominance of peers. July (minus the GSL cause its not a factor in bonjwa case imo) has 3 osl wins and bisu has 3 msl wins, July has been in osl final 5 times and bisu has been in msl final 4 times. How does july lack the league credentials? Its also july who bisu needs to beat in a bo5 on his road to bonjwa if he does become one (which i dont think he will). July ezmodes every protoss in the scene atm hes far and away the best zvper atm with only jaedong in his stratosphere in that matchup. In july v bisu july is the favorite and its a bo5 id give my left nut to see.
Considered Bisu have beaten him both times it really mattered (the tiebreakers in OSL, where he lost both group games vs him) I don`t see how you can put him as favorite, especially considered bisu is a clutch series player when the stakes are high, tho july has the score advantage 3-2 vs him. I would say its pretty much a tossup, but I would love to see them in a BO5 :D
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Bisu is too good at SC and too bad at being a man.
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Am I the only one thinking that winning two leagues -> slump -> winning two more is far more consistent then winning 4 -> slumping forever?
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On February 09 2009 14:24 Kuja900 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2009 10:06 eshlow wrote:On February 09 2009 08:43 MamiyaOtaru wrote:On February 09 2009 07:28 sonicmerlin wrote:But Bisu is after all the only Toss to ever make it to #1 in the Kespa rankings. He was the first. Stork followed shortly thereafter, and was #1 as recently as last month IIRC I was curious so I went back and marked top KeSPA... 11/2001 - 03/2003 Boxer 04/2003 - 07/2004 NaDa 08/2004 - 03/2005 oov 04/2005 - 02/2006 July 03/2006 - 06/2006 oov 07/2006 - 10/2006 ChoJJa 11/2006 -------------- sAviOr 12/2006 -------------- NaDa 01/2007 - 08/2007 sAviOr 09/2007 -------------- Bisu 10/2007 -------------- Stork 11/2007 - 12/2007 Bisu 01/2008 -------------- Stork 02/2008 -------------- Bisu 03/2008 - 06/2008 Jaedong 07/2008 - 11/2008 FlaSh 12/2008 - 01/2009 Stork 02/2009 - Present Bisu Boxer = 17 months NaDa = 17 months (16+1) oov = 12 months (8+4) July = 11 months sAviOr = 9 months (1+8) Flash = 5 months Bisu = 5 months (1+2+1+1) Jaedong = 4 months ChoJJa = 4 months Stork = 4 months (1+1+2) Well, the dominance of the top players (aside from July.. as he doesn't have the amount of league wins to be considered bonjwa) seems to be 9+ months atop KeSPA if we we're to go by looking at these stats... just another analysis. However, the amount of games played now is drastically more than they were playing back then... so theoretically 4-5 months should be comparible to the 9+ months put up by the other players. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, etc. have all played a comparible amount of games with 75%+ winrate against their peers BUT BUT BUT they haven't be clearly dominant over their rivals like Boxer, NaDa, oov, and sAviOr were. --------------------------------- Anyway, as for "bonjwa" IMO If Bisu can: 1. Keep up his dominance (aka 75%+ winrate that he has going since Oct last year) 2. Beat Jaedong Bo5 (Feb 22nd... preferably 3-1 or 3-0) 3. Win this OSL with the unfavorable toss maps (going through a couple of Leta/Flash/Jaedong/Stork/etc.). I'd say that would be a good case for him with the MSL, OSL, and GOM titles plus dominance of peers. July (minus the GSL cause its not a factor in bonjwa case imo) has 3 osl wins and bisu has 3 msl wins, July has been in osl final 5 times and bisu has been in msl final 4 times. How does july lack the league credentials? Its also july who bisu needs to beat in a bo5 on his road to bonjwa if he does become one (which i dont think he will). July ezmodes every protoss in the scene atm hes far and away the best zvper atm with only jaedong in his stratosphere in that matchup. In july v bisu july is the favorite and its a bo5 id give my left nut to see.
That's not what I said. This is what I said...
"aside from July.. as he doesn't have the amount of league wins to be considered bonjwa"
No one considers him a bonwja because even though he was comparable to oov for a period of time while oov was dominating pretty much everyone BUT July... he doesn't have the amount of league titles to backup a claim to bonwja (in the context of being on top of KeSPA).
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EPT
