EPTSamsung Protoss < Bisu
[GOM] Classic Season 2 Finals (8/2) - Page 70
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
Samsung Protoss < Bisu | ||
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Aurioch
United States414 Posts
On February 09 2009 05:26 Avidkeystamper wrote: I made many distinctions between Savior's run and Bisu's run and those distinctions make Savior a bonjwa while Bisu is not. I don't understand your post, I already answered your question in my explanations. Let me quote you on this. "How much do you have to dominate? Bisu won 2 MSL's in a row,was in a Final of another and made it to the semifinals of an OSL. After that,he dominates the scene since October." The nail in his coffin is his extended absence after his domination, he was no where to be found for a very long time. An extended period of time doesn't have any gaps, he played so helplessly for a good half year. You claimed Bisu played helplessly for a good half year, and Savior didn't? Savior dominated and won 3 MSL, Bisu dominated and won 2 MSL, went to the 3rd final, but lost, then went on a slump, and was able to find his way back to being a champion. What has savior do? He was put into a slump, and continue to lose to half ass players, and has not proven himself, so your post is full of contradiction and makes you look nothing but a hypocrite. It's true that Savior has show signs of his dominance once again, but unlike Bisu, who won back to back gold, Savior has not shown that yet, and you seem to think there's a mile gap between the two, well there's not. | ||
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Rostam
United States2552 Posts
On February 09 2009 06:59 Aurioch wrote: Let me quote you on this. "How much do you have to dominate? Bisu won 2 MSL's in a row,was in a Final of another and made it to the semifinals of an OSL. After that,he dominates the scene since October." The nail in his coffin is his extended absence after his domination, he was no where to be found for a very long time. An extended period of time doesn't have any gaps, he played so helplessly for a good half year. You claimed Bisu played helplessly for a good half year, and Savior didn't? Savior dominated and won 3 MSL, Bisu dominated and won 2 MSL, went to the 3rd final, but lost, then went on a slump, and was able to find his way back to being a champion. What has savior do? He was put into a slump, and continue to lose to half ass players, and has not proven himself, so your post is full of contradiction and makes you look nothing but a hypocrite. It's true that Savior has show signs of his dominance once again, but unlike Bisu, who won back to back gold, Savior has not shown that yet, and you seem to think there's a mile gap between the two, well there's not. Um...what? Nobody claims Savior was still bonjwa during his slump, so I don't understand what your post is meant to prove. | ||
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TheTyranid
Russian Federation4333 Posts
On February 08 2009 21:09 MrHoon wrote: - You still aren't hearing the name "Bonjwa", how do you feel? ▲ I was asked this before. Honestly, I don't really want to hear it. When I saw bonjwas in my eyes, they all rised to the top, and toppled down to the abyss. I don't want to be a bonjwa, rather I want to be that guy who was good and didn't fall into the abyss. And finally, I want to say, Rather than being the best progamer, I will be the progamer who gives it his all. I hope all the "Bisu is Bonjwa" arguments will be put to rest as Bisu himself doesn't consider himself a Bonjwa. | ||
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3nickma
Denmark1510 Posts
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sonicmerlin
United States2 Posts
Besides, Boxer had a history of peaking and slumping terribly over and over again. Bisu is overall just more consistent. I saw a graph on here somewhere that showed the winning %'s of Bisu vs. Savior over the last few years. You can clearly see how consistent Bisu is. But he needs to win an OSL. Also keep in mind that Protoss is usually considered the weakest race. In some ways it makes sense because it's the race that requires the least APM. But Bisu is after all the only Toss to ever make it to #1 in the Kespa rankings. The 'Golden Age of Protoss' has just been Kespa's attempt to drum up interest and revenue with a series of heavily Protoss favoring maps. Kind of like baseball's attempt to increase public interest in the sport after the '94 lockout with steroid-assisted home run hitters. But Bisu reached his #1 ranking before all of this favoritism. | ||
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Kyuukyuu
Canada6263 Posts
On February 09 2009 07:19 3nickma wrote: Pardon me for asking but I've been seeing a lot about a Jaedong vs. Bisu BO5. Must have slipped my news rador so where did this come from? Winner of GOM Season 1 vs. Season 2 | ||
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rushz0rz
Canada5300 Posts
On February 09 2009 07:28 sonicmerlin wrote: Starcraft has a very short history compared to other sports. When one looks at Hall of Famers (the equivalent of the Korean Bonjwa), you see a very long period of general dominance. One of the reasons Jim Rice did not get into baseball's Hall of Fame until his 15th and final year of eligibility was that he didn't dominate for a long enough period of time. Less than a decade, in fact. In sports such as baseball, football, and basketball, one needs to demonstrate extreme aptitude for the majority of their career. However that does not exclude them from the peril of occasional slumps, or failures to beat opponents they were expected to defeat. Manny Ramirez, for example, is not immune to going through month long slumps. But it has always been his ability to pull out of that slump, dominate once again, and perform in the clutch that has resulted in him being called one of the 5 greatest right-handed hitters in baseball history. As Starcraft has matured and the field has become littered with ever increasing levels of competition, the definition of 'bonjwa' has been forced to change. Bisu made a very good point during his interview when he mentioned how other 'bonjwa' have catapulted into 'the abyss' after their short-lived period of radiant dominance. He wants to be one who plays consistently well over a long period of time. He's not planning on fizzling out after a year of wins, like Savior did. He's not planning on being demoted to the B-team, or escaping to the army after his talent diminishes and/or the competition gets tougher, as Boxer and many of his famous peers did. He wants to be, and most likely will be, a true Hall of Famer. One who fans would overwhelmingly vote into a hypothetical SC all-star game every year. One who, upon reflection of his history of success, you would want in a BO5 in another hypothetical 'ultimate showdown' sort of matchup. Look at it this way. The sun has its dark spots. The earth has even suffered ice ages because of the sun's inconsistencies. But looking at the history of our solar system, would anyone ever doubt the magnitude of the sun's radiation powers? (Yes I'm aware I'm comparing Bisu to the sun. He *is* pretty awesome) I think Bisu would go down in a StarCraft "Hall of Fame" just for completely revolutionizing a match up. Not many players do this, if not any. He may not be a Bonjwa, but he had done something that is so rare and with such brilliance that he deserves a spot. Not to mention he is dominating the scene and is the first Protoss in history to get 4 league titles. | ||
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abakben
United States308 Posts
On February 09 2009 07:17 TheTyranid wrote: I hope all the "Bisu is Bonjwa" arguments will be put to rest as Bisu himself doesn't consider himself a Bonjwa. He did not say he is not a Bonjwa. All he said he did not want to be a Bonjwa if he will share the same destiny with the older ones. | ||
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Aurioch
United States414 Posts
On February 09 2009 07:11 Rostam wrote: Um...what? Nobody claims Savior was still bonjwa during his slump, so I don't understand what your post is meant to prove. Are you retarded or something? When you're a bonjwa, that status doesn't go away even if you slump... | ||
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MamiyaOtaru
United States1687 Posts
On February 09 2009 07:28 sonicmerlin wrote:But Bisu is after all the only Toss to ever make it to #1 in the Kespa rankings. He was the first. Stork followed shortly thereafter, and was #1 as recently as last month IIRC | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
On February 09 2009 06:59 Aurioch wrote: Let me quote you on this. "How much do you have to dominate? Bisu won 2 MSL's in a row,was in a Final of another and made it to the semifinals of an OSL. After that,he dominates the scene since October." The nail in his coffin is his extended absence after his domination, he was no where to be found for a very long time. An extended period of time doesn't have any gaps, he played so helplessly for a good half year. You claimed Bisu played helplessly for a good half year, and Savior didn't? Savior dominated and won 3 MSL, Bisu dominated and won 2 MSL, went to the 3rd final, but lost, then went on a slump, and was able to find his way back to being a champion. What has savior do? He was put into a slump, and continue to lose to half ass players, and has not proven himself, so your post is full of contradiction and makes you look nothing but a hypocrite. It's true that Savior has show signs of his dominance once again, but unlike Bisu, who won back to back gold, Savior has not shown that yet, and you seem to think there's a mile gap between the two, well there's not. Don't call people retarded and hypocrites when they haven't done anything to you. Also, notice I also posted things like : "And of course there are players just as good right now. But they didn't dominate for so long,they didn't win 4 titles,they are not considered Revolutionists." Yes, but people like Savior would consistently beat his "rivals" whenever they met, Bisu still has a under 50% against Flash + JD, that was the point I was making. If I remember correctly, Savior denied many of his rivals titles many, many times (except Chojja), Bisu got knocked out by his rivals many, many times. (Bacchus, GOMS4, Arena). "And with all due respect, his wins aren't that much influenced by the maps. Why can't anybody else besides him and Jangbi win on these maps now if they are so imbalanced? Because they are the best. " He himself said that maps influenced the outcomes of his games. (Interview after losing to by.hero) Savior did not have the same weakness (Shinhan OSL). In these passages, I highlighted some clear distinct differences between Savior's and Bisu's runs. Since those paragraphs consisted of the bulk of my post, I though you read them, but it appears you only read my first paragraph and took an accusatory tone without finishing it. Here is part of your post: "What has savior do? He was put into a slump, and continue to lose to half ass players, and has not proven himself, so your post is full of contradiction and makes you look nothing but a hypocrite." That's fine, but the fact is people called Savior a bonjwa before all that happened, however, now, people are considering to call Bisu a bonjwa even though his slump already happened. That is also a clear distinction. Savior had one solid extended run for well over a year, and people started calling him bonjwa before he fell. Bisu's run was interrupted by his slump for a long time, so his inconsistency to maintain his level of play is one of the factors that makes the majority of people not consider him a bonjwa. | ||
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
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Stingray
United Kingdom13 Posts
[B] Also keep in mind that Protoss is usually considered the weakest race. In some ways it makes sense because it's the race that requires the least APM. But Bisu is after all the only Toss to ever make it to #1 in the Kespa rankings. The 'Golden Age of Protoss' has just been Kespa's attempt to drum up interest and revenue with a series of heavily Protoss favoring maps. Kind of like baseball's attempt to increase public interest in the sport after the '94 lockout with steroid-assisted home run hitters. But Bisu reached his #1 ranking before all of this favoritism. Wow, I never thought of it that way before. Thanks for enlightening me man. Makes me wonder if the current zerg > protoss maps are a way of saying sorry to zerg players. lol | ||
disciple
9070 Posts
well with average 400 apm and top around 510-530 you cant consider bisu a slow player...not a bit | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
On February 09 2009 09:02 disciple wrote: Also keep in mind that Protoss is usually considered the weakest race. In some ways it makes sense because it's the race that requires the least APM. well with average 400 apm and top around 510-530 you cant consider bisu a slow player...not a bit Yep, that's why he is able to multitask so well in PvZ, creates chaos everywhere + excellent sair/reaver control. | ||
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
also mr avid you highlighting differences between savior's and bisu's 'runs' is actually you highlighting differences between saviors run and bisu's slump. however bisu is not bonjwa and there will almost certainly not be another. he is the best player in the world though, even if he loses to jaedong. he starts favourite against any p and any t. this is enough. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
On February 09 2009 09:09 Lachrymose wrote: people seem to have this weird selective memory thing going with savior. good ol' nostalgia. also mr avid you highlighting differences between savior's and bisu's 'runs' is actually you highlighting differences between saviors run and bisu's slump. however bisu is not bonjwa and there will almost certainly not be another. he is the best player in the world though, even if he loses to jaedong. he starts favourite against any p and any t. this is enough. No, people considered Savior a bonjwa at the end of his run. Before that, he was dominant the entire time. People are considering Bisu a bonjwa right now. At this point in his career, he had a slump beforehand, which was not present during Savior's time when people considered him a bonjwa, that's the point I was trying to make. | ||
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
Now that is something I really want to see. GOM is really cool in that they have the two champions play like this, maybe when there is three champs they can have a free for all? That would be epic, I've never seen a pro FFA before. @Bonjwa arguement: Bisu definitely is the player closest to being the Bonjwa. Sure he got knocked out of the MSL in the first round, but he definitely had more important things to practice for at that point. He sure as hell didn't encounter that many zergs here in the GSL. I do think that being a bonjwa these days is infinitely more difficult than it was in the days of MJY. For Bisu to continue being dominant in leagues will be very difficult with the likes of July, Leta, Flash, Jaedong, and the many other S class players now on the scene. IF Bisu can win this OSL it will be a huge step towards being the bonjwa as there seems to many even more stronger players there than there were in the GSL. Facing Skyhigh in the ro4 was definitely a lucky break for Bisu, not to discredit him in any way. Being a champion is not 100% skill, luck factors into it as well. If Bisu can prevail against zergs on Tears of the Moon then this will speak even more strongly of his dominance of the scene. Even beating July in the ro16 would say a lot to me. July has been dismantling protoss left and right lately. The answer for being being Bonjwa is the same as the answer for is Savior back. Just wait and see, the truth will be more apparent as time going on so there isn't too much point in arguing it so strongly right now since the evidence is just not there. If Bisu is bonjwa it will show through and there will be no doubt of it. Did anyone doubt that Savior or Nada or Oov was the bonjwa in their period of dominance? Of course not. | ||
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Rostam
United States2552 Posts
On February 09 2009 08:35 Aurioch wrote: Are you retarded or something? When you're a bonjwa, that status doesn't go away even if you slump... A bonjwa is a player who dominates the entire scene, so it's absurd to say the status doesn't go away if you slump. It's not like being knighted and putting "Sir" in front of your name for the rest of your life, it's just a word used to describe an extremely dominant player. When people call Savior a bonjwa, they mean that he achieved that status in the past. | ||
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