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United States43989 Posts
On November 23 2008 02:25 MayorITC wrote:
Metagame is one of two things: the usage of information obtained outside the game and/or any action that goes beyond the standard limits of a game.
Cheese requires intense concentration and focus, thus it's not necessarily a newbie move. However, there is a gambling aspect to it that's more dominant than in regular build order differentiations. Cheesing basically seeks to negate the effects of the opponent's unit control as much as possible while focusing on overwhelming him/her with pure numbers or technology.
In short, it's the strongest gamble in Starcraft. And metagaming allows you to add percentages to each cheese because you can observe an opponent's previous gaming history on specific maps. Something Stork took advantage of in his game against Best on Medusa although some people would argue if his 4-gate counted as cheese.
However, regardless of all the percentages, it is still a shot in the dark. Call it a psychological battle or attach whatever skill component to it that you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it relies on a build order win that's not even guaranteed to work as opposed to scouting then countering with the right build order or just simply outplaying the opponent in the various aspects of the game rather than the metagame,
There are always gambles. A player who plays completely safely and counters all the cheesey things his opponent could be doing will lose to a straight up player every time because they've wasted so much money being safe. It's not practical to play safely because that is exploited simply by them not cheesing. Whatever you do is a risk because there will be a something they can do back to gain advantage. Players make a series of small gambles which are educated guesses based upon the metagame. Bisu took a risk by going straight to core on Destination but the metagame made him believe the gains outweighed the risks and he got a solid build order advantage.
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On November 23 2008 02:35 kemoryan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2008 01:11 Baddieko wrote:
jangbi, bisu, kal, free all belong to protoss high APM category averaging 350, that is why their best MU is pvz whereas stork and best belong to the mechanics+macro protoss with 250 APM. Thats why u see jangbi and bisu are pretty anti-harrass. This series was totally decided by rock paper scissors build orders which is real pvp as both players have the same mechanics. Bisu has the better game sense this time due to his experience and nerves and outsmart jangbi in the BO department. The cheese build at game 3 is a blow to jangbi which lead to game 4 risky expansion. He is the specialist in samsung khan's protoss cheese strategies and didn't expect to lose that.
I think you're mixing things up. Having relatively 'low' apm doesn't mean being good at macro. And what do you mean by mechanics+macro? I thought mechanics is macro (and micro, multitasking, etc.).
He didn't say having a low apm meant being good at macro. What he meant was that Jangbi, Bisu, Kal, Free are heavy multi-taskers and are constantly doing cute micro tricks, while Stork and Best are macro-heavy while focusing a bit less on multi-tasking. Not sure how much I'd agree with that, but I'm sure that's what Baddieko meant.
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On November 23 2008 02:37 Kwark wrote:
There are always gambles. A player who plays completely safely and counters all the cheesey things his opponent could be doing will lose to a straight up player every time because they've wasted so much money being safe. It's not practical to play safely because that is exploited simply by them not cheesing. Whatever you do is a risk because there will be a something they can do back to gain advantage. Players make a series of small gambles which are educated guesses based upon the metagame. Bisu took a risk by going straight to core on Destination but the metagame made him believe the gains outweighed the risks and he got a solid build order advantage.
Hence why I said cheese is the strongest gamble inferring that there are other gambles as well. I'm not stating that people should never cheese. A person who relies solely on cheese will never do too well in the long run and neither will someone who relies solely on standard play. However, I view mechanics as the first step to master before tackling cheese. BIsu's level of mechanics isn't as good as the other notable Protoss names, and has been focusing a lot on the metagame for his wins. However, for the long haul he will have to brush up on his mechanics because you can't expect to Build Order your way to victory over and over.
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Whats with all the haters? Who gives a shit about mechanics, Bisu wins, Jangbi doesn't. He's by far the better player, which is defined by consistently winning, not by anything else.
congrats Bisu.
P.S. I'm a savior fan, not a Bisu one. Still glad he won so boring, faceless players like Jangbi get shut out some more. Up with ballsy Starcraft!
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I love both players, but I'm glad to see Bisu get his 3rd MSL. CONGRATS REVOLUTIONIST!!!
Jangbi, your time will come eventually
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i love how some people are trying to minimize bisu's performances ... arent we talking about the first and only protoss with 3 SL's under his belt ?
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Sweden33719 Posts
.. I think I'm just never gonna read any Jangbi-game threads ever again, I get too annoyed by retards hating on him for no reason.
I think both players played pretty well --;
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manner pylons tilt me so bad every time ><
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On November 23 2008 03:21 FrozenArbiter wrote:
.. I think I'm just never gonna read any Jangbi-game threads ever again, I get too annoyed by retards hating on him for no reason.
I think both players played pretty well --; Agreed.
Show some respect people. Jangbi is a great player and he put up our cheerful...why? Because hes a good guy who respects the foreign community. Sadly a large portion of the community can not return the favour.
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Analyzing Bisu's wins and minimizing someone's performance is different. Minimizing someone's performance would be more like your statement you made in the "dear samsung" thread:
BeSt and free > jangbi
Desite Jangbi having a higher ELO and KeSPA rating than Free and every other source, objective and subjective, aside from Free's mother and the PR saying that Jangbi is better, you post that Free is better. What's your opinion based on? Your magic 8-ball or ouija board?
Right.
And despite my deep annoyance for the close-mindedness of Bisu fans, I still attempt to analyze his games and base my opinions of him with a more in-depth approach than merely how close his facial expressions resemble Savior's two minutes into a game.
Don't get me wrong. I was rooting for Jangbi, but above all that, I'm a protoss player and I'm embrace the idea of a Protoss bonjwa regardless of who the candidates are. But if a player's performance has weak points, I'm not going to turn a blind eye just because I like him. Nor am I going to point out bad points just because I don't like a player.
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YES BISU
I FUCKING LOVE YOU
GOOOOOOOOOOO
!!!!!!!!!!!11111111
<33333333333333333
<3333333333333
<333333333
YOU MAKE ME
A HAPPY PERSON
THANK YOU
I LOVE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
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i want to see the trophy cerimony, the ring ! the ring!
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Russian Federation1208 Posts
JangBi is a constant loser.
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Awesome, Stork won an OSL and Bisu wins an MSL. Now we just need an epic OSL final between these two. Ah, that would be awesome.
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muwahahahaa bisu gets revenge for skt!
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man bisu was very confident that he was going to win XD
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EPT
