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kemoryan
Spain1506 Posts
On November 23 2008 00:26 stambe wrote: Can anyone explain what exactly metagame is ? It's been used a handfull of times in the tread but i cant figure it out. Everything that's outside the games themselves (knowledge about your opponent, mind-games, etc.). At least that's what I think it is, correct me if Im wrong. | ||
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sung_moon
United States10110 Posts
3rd msl is yours | ||
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Darth Peter
Romania438 Posts
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On November 23 2008 00:29 kemoryan wrote: Everything that's outside the games themselves (knowledge about your opponent, mind-games, etc.). At least that's what I think it is, correct me if Im wrong. I always took it to mean adapting to what is standard... | ||
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kemoryan
Spain1506 Posts
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Baddieko
Singapore855 Posts
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No_eL
Chile1438 Posts
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QuietIdiot
7004 Posts
From the sound of it bisu only let his overaggression get him in the first game when he lost his reaver. Glad he didn't play that retarded hyper aggressive play throughout, took jangbi down straight up. | ||
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GeLaar
2421 Posts
about those bisu-jangbi comparisons: if a wizard kills a peasant by hitting him with his staff instead of throwing giant fireballs, that doesn't mean that they're on the same level. we've seen this particular wizard's magic before, and i think it's fair to expect him to use it only when fighting another wizard. what i'm trying to say is that it takes two good players to make an entertaining final. the fact that we didn't get something on the level of bisu vs stork is mostly janbgi's fault. i have to say though that i am a bit disappointed with game 3. sure, the building placement was sublime and the shield battery in jangbi's main was a nice touch, but at the end of the day it was still just a 5-minute cheesed game. and what's worse is that i already called jangbi gay when he did the same thing vs kal, so now i can't exactly praise bisu for using such a "brilliant" strat, can i? i mean, there's a limit even to my fanboy hypocrisy.  and bisu won our hearts precisely with his straight-up play...still, congrats to the victor for a well deserved third msl title. i hope he'll start working more seriously now toward that osl title he also deserves.  go bisu! | ||
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Centric
United States1989 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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KwarK
United States44372 Posts
On November 23 2008 00:29 kemoryan wrote: Everything that's outside the games themselves (knowledge about your opponent, mind-games, etc.). At least that's what I think it is, correct me if Im wrong. Metagame is mind games. It's exploiting threat, controlling what your opponent scouts, trying to influence his play. From micro tactics such as feigning weakness to lure an opponent into a flank to July's 5 pool against BeSt to get in his head and put him mentally on the defensive. A basic example is when you leave your goons outside your nat rather than your ramp early game PvP to pretend you've taken your exp. You're not just stopping scouting, you're actively trying to change the build your opponent takes through misdirection. | ||
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KOFgokuon
United States14912 Posts
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amorpheus
Bulgaria2144 Posts
On November 22 2008 23:39 raga4ka wrote: Since when is inbase Proxy cheese ?He did it his face not depending on luck if it gets scouted or not . And 4 gate push is about as cheese as a 2 gate 1 robo reaver push . Stork didn't use cheese to kill Best ... So yeah i have to agree with DJEtterStyle i don't think that Bisu is playing brilliant starcraft to tell you the truth .He looked helpless in those big battles , but grats to him for winning . shut up please this is pure nonsense | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
On November 23 2008 01:35 GeLaar wrote: bisu fan here. joining the celebration, albeit a bit late. about those bisu-jangbi comparisons: if a wizard kills a peasant by hitting him with his staff instead of throwing giant fireballs, that doesn't mean that they're on the same level. we've seen this particular wizard's magic before, and i think it's fair to expect him to use it only when fighting another wizard. Wtf o_O | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On November 23 2008 01:35 GeLaar wrote:i have to say though that i am a bit disappointed with game 3. sure, the building placement was sublime and the shield battery in jangbi's main was a nice touch, but at the end of the day it was still just a 5-minute cheesed game. and what's worse is that i already called jangbi gay when he did the same thing vs kal, so now i can't exactly praise bisu for using such a "brilliant" strat, can i? i mean, there's a limit even to my fanboy hypocrisy. and bisu won our hearts precisely with his straight-up play...I was rooting for Kal over Jangbi, but I laughed so hard when I saw that cheese... it was brilliant. Bisu's cute little spin on it was also brilliant. That had to mess with Jangbi's head so much. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On November 23 2008 00:51 Darth Peter wrote: K bisu is not complex, they both have great skill in a variety of different play styles and builds. In general, Bisu's early game micro is better than Jangbi's, and Jangbi's macro is better than Bisu. Wish it was 3-2 but it was still good.Guys,come on,what if Bisu cheesed in game 3? Like Jangbi,Stork and Best never cheesed in their lives. Cheesing is not noobish. If you say that it is,then you are calling the Emperor a noob. Cheese is mind game. And Bisu won one game with cheese,and two without cheese,and who says Bisu didn't win Msl deservingly is really stupid. It's like saying Stork didn't win the OSL deservengly. No offense to Jangbi,but Bisu is more complex. Yes,his mechanics aren't that great,but he can defend a 4 gate,something which Best couldn't do. Than what good is mechanics for? Come on,call me a stupid Bisu fanboy. I don't fucking care,that's exactly what I am,and who says Bisu is a noob,than he is blinded with hatred,and it is not a bit better than being a Bisu fanboy. So yeah Jangbi fans and Bisu haters,come with your jealousy,that is the only thing you have left,because Kim Taek Yong kicked ass today. | ||
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Ozarugold
2716 Posts
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MayorITC
Korea (South)798 Posts
Cheese requires intense concentration and focus, thus it's not necessarily a newbie move. However, there is a gambling aspect to it that's more dominant than in regular build order differentiations. Cheesing basically seeks to negate the effects of the opponent's unit control as much as possible while focusing on overwhelming him/her with pure numbers or technology. In short, it's the strongest gamble in Starcraft. And metagaming allows you to add percentages to each cheese because you can observe an opponent's previous gaming history on specific maps. Something Stork took advantage of in his game against Best on Medusa although some people would argue if his 4-gate counted as cheese. However, regardless of all the percentages, it is still a shot in the dark. Call it a psychological battle or attach whatever skill component to it that you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it relies on a build order win that's not even guaranteed to work as opposed to scouting then countering with the right build order or just simply outplaying the opponent in the various aspects of the game rather than the metagame, In general, Bisu's early game micro is better than Jangbi's, and Jangbi's macro is better than Bisu. Wish it was 3-2 but it was still good. No, it's not. If anything, the series showed that Jangbi had the better zealot control. Game 1 showed Jangbi defending a zealot harass without losing a single probe and still managing to take down two back-to-back manner pylons at the same time. Note that in Game 2 when the situations were reversed, Bisu lost a probe to a zealot even though he also had a Dragoon out while Jangbi did not for game 1 because of the difference in the base distances. Unless you're talking about game 3 which had nothing to do with Jangbi being outmicroed as even Garimto on steroids wouldn't be able to stop a 2 proxy gateways with just one gateway while teching to Dragoons. And macro isn't comparable between the two from the series because it never got to a point where they had similar economic status up to their second expansion except for in Game 1. | ||
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kemoryan
Spain1506 Posts
On November 23 2008 01:11 Baddieko wrote: jangbi, bisu, kal, free all belong to protoss high APM category averaging 350, that is why their best MU is pvz whereas stork and best belong to the mechanics+macro protoss with 250 APM. Thats why u see jangbi and bisu are pretty anti-harrass. This series was totally decided by rock paper scissors build orders which is real pvp as both players have the same mechanics. Bisu has the better game sense this time due to his experience and nerves and outsmart jangbi in the BO department. The cheese build at game 3 is a blow to jangbi which lead to game 4 risky expansion. He is the specialist in samsung khan's protoss cheese strategies and didn't expect to lose that. I think you're mixing things up. Having relatively 'low' apm doesn't mean being good at macro. And what do you mean by mechanics+macro? I thought mechanics is macro (and micro, multitasking, etc.). | ||
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