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On March 02 2008 09:09 Sadist wrote:
I cant believe people are calling what flash is doing boring, this stuff is nothing new, OOV started this shit. Only difference is Flash uses gols now and rapes carriers. BTW anyone know how exactly he was able to kill all the interceptors that easily? I Used hold position and it didnt work very well
Did you have +2 attack at the time? With +2 ints take one less hit. Personally I think it's constant a-click, move, a-click spamming.
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On March 02 2008 09:51 Sadist wrote:
Thats bullshit, he outplayed jaedong and stork as well as bisu, he managed the game better than they did. You can tell he put pressure on jaedong, why do you think he tried that stupid sunken rush ?
While I agree with you completely, I just wanted to mention that Baek is horribly imbalanced in favor of T against Z. So I'm sure that had a lot to do with Jaedongs strategic choice. Jaedong definitely feared Flash's mech on that map.
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On March 01 2008 22:47 Zherak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2008 17:24 OneOther wrote:On March 01 2008 12:08 Zherak wrote:On March 01 2008 10:40 ._. wrote:
Flash played perfect.
He has adapted, evolved, and leveled up so quickly, its amazing.
Compare his cheese wins from the past, and compare to his wins now.
I am stunned, hes a few years older than me but I cannot believe a guy like that can throw such punches at the big guys. He even mastered TvP on Katrina, a truly remarkable feat, really shows his adaptability.
Ladies and gentlemen, we may be looking at one of the future's finest pro-gamers to ever exist. What the fuck are you talking about? Game 1: Tries to cheese, fails. Game 2: Gets completely outplayed, wins because Bisu suicides half his army in the secondexpoattack. Game 3: Opens correctly versus a stupid proxy-robo and gains a huge advantage - including, yet not limited to, 2 free Dragoon kills, 1 free Reaver kill (...). Still manages to struggle against Bisu, even after he has Anytime-recalled 40 psi into mines. Game 4: Decently played by Flash, though extragavantly gay. Would have lost if Bisu has researched Psi Storm before dropping. Games 2 and 3 were essentially handed to him on a silver platter. He lost game 1. Game 4 was some good old Terran turtle. Adapted? No, he used the same safe-turtle build every game. Mastered TvP? Not at all. He plays a high-APM, macro-oriented turtle, and doesn't even do so especially well. While game 4 is open for discussion, none of the other were anywhere near perfect. They were Terran-with-the-upper-hand-macro. What the fuck are YOU talking about? Game2: Gets completely outplayed? What makes you think that Flash was outplayed. It was pretty close to even (maybe slight advantage to Bisu) until Bisu did that attack. It wasn't a bad attack imo, just micro mistake. Shuttles not dropping half the stuff, zealots running in too early, etc. It wasn't big enough of a mistake where Flash can automatically win. He outplayed Bisu from then point on, even after the bad formation and whatnot in that huge battle. Game3: I am actually impressed Flash managed to come back after his HUGE fuck-up on his first push. I think this game just shows how much better Flash played. It's true he had the advantage up to that point, but he was fighting an even or maybe uphill battle after that Game4: Lol bunch of bullshit. You should probably get out of Bisu's pants before you make comments about this game. HIGH TEMPLARS>FLASH?!?! Game 2 and Game 3 certainly weren't handed to Flash on a silver platter. He played better than Bisu. He worked for it. Again, you are wrong. Flash is very versatile when he comes to TvP. He cheeses, two facts, macro turtles, and etc. Seems like the his concept vs Bisu was the macro style. Probably made that decision after realizing Bisu goes arbiters more often than carriers (thought he should have went carriers on blue storm). Arbiters don't put as much of a timing pressure on the Terran as carriers do, so Flash was in no hurry. Get vessels, EMP, 3-3 ups, 12 facts, since you don't have to worry about those carriers. I am afraid you and your fellow game analysists need to actually play PvT before you think you have a clue. It takes more than looking at the screen, seeing blue goo and many tank to know what is going on. If you think Game 3 is a comeback by Flash, that just illustrates how badly you know PvT - 3-3 3-base Terran doesn't comeback, it just rears its ugly head again and again. Besides, the point was not whether Bisu had the upper hand or not - the point was merely that Flash did not play perfect, or for that matter even exceptional. It just looks impressive when idiots like you observing the game completely forgets that everything you do will be succesful when playing with the upper hand.
WTF? GAME 4=Extravagantly gay because Flash played perfectly and raped Bisu to shreds? GTFO.
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United States10774 Posts
On March 02 2008 09:22 Agahnim wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2008 08:33 FeArTeHsCoUrGe wrote:
did Flash get lucky vs Jae Dong?
Yeah, he did. when all of gsi's games consist of cheese and he wins 2-1 i call it luck. cheese heavily depends on luck. Last game of OSL on Katrina for example. What did Flash do to win him the game? wallin expand go mech turtle upgrade move out setup army watch jaedong suicide his army in yours attack-move win He did nothing exceptional. he didn't vulture harass like in the previous game in msl on katrina or anything like that, just turtle + move out and jaedong handed him the win. if he goes for a sunkenbreak, it's more jaedong's fault for not making enough defense, so flash was in a way lucky again. jaedong seems to have learned from it judging from his match vs mind, though he barely defended it. and over the 3 tournaments their record is 3-1 1-2 and 1-2 so they're tied 5-5. sure flash is good, but a lot of wins seem to be attributed to failures of his opponents. (i haven't seen his games vs bisu/stork yet, but i read a lot of people saying bisu made some big mistakes)
.....die please
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Damn.
Point one. Flash didn't look invincible in either Bo5, he looked incredible. Bisu and Stork had their chances to beat him, but Flash simply played better. Both Stork and Bisu if they take note of each Bo5, correct their mistakes and use each other's successful ideas can win. Flash proved he can stand amongst the best PvT displays these two can offer up. That's all there is to it.
Point Two. Even if Flash's style is boring/lame/imbalanced/whatever, Flash is still the only one who managed to pull it off out of all the Terran Bisu/Stork have played. Give him credit where it's due.
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Zherak, I know you read my post. Lets play?
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People need to give credit where credit is due. There was no other terran player on the planet that could have done what Flash did in this past 3 weeks. If you think it's easy, go ahead and use the exact same build order as flash on katrina and see how many wins you can get off of competent protoss or do the same mech build vs.a good zerg. After some practice, you might very well get a winning percentage, and that's great, Flash has laid down the path for you. I think one reason people thought he was weak against carriers was he actually tried targeting interceptors like half a year ago, and it wasn't working too well at the beginning and people were saying wtf is he doing. Don't forget his strongest mu is terran, a testament to his strategic mind. Now protoss has to respond to his innovation and zerg has to take a copy of its history and see how they dealt with mech. If you thought his games were boring, you must have not have liked Oov, nada or Boxer. To me, Flash is like the product of a mad scientist that combined oov's macro and timing, Nada's control, and Boxer's strategy (and balls).
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It's sad that Bisu lost the 4-th game. He had a good advantage while playing with arbiters and he could have won if had micro-ed better his cariers. Actually I think one bad mistake he has done is that didn't kill the armories with cariers at the first shot. Also it seemed to me that he gg'ed quite early, since had yet so many cariers, and could do much damage if would have avoided the battles with goliaths.
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Wow... from this thread I can see Flash has too many fanboys. Bisu has proven himself from his accomplishments. Flash has done nothing yet compared to Bisu. Until he proves himself worthy of winning game after game after game for an extended time (like Bisu did) then yes... adore him. Until then stop it please.
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On March 06 2008 02:58 DA_Greeks wrote:
Wow... from this thread I can see Flash has too many fanboys. Bisu has proven himself from his accomplishments. Flash has done nothing yet compared to Bisu. Until he proves himself worthy of winning game after game after game for an extended time (like Bisu did) then yes... adore him. Until then stop it please.
Bisu never, ever, ever, won game after game after game for an extended period of time. His reign was never that dominant, not even close.
Bisu invented a dominant strategy vs Zerg (particularly vs Savior), winning his first MSL. He barely beat Stork for the second MSL. It was downhill from there.
With respect to top, top progamers, Bisu has always sucked vs Terran. HIs PvP was stable, his PvZ was amazing until Zerg players stopped following the Maestro's footsteps and started playing smart, aka using Hydras.
Flash has only been playing SC for 3 years, and look what hes done. He won a tournament featuring the best of the best. He is in the OSL finals, and has beaten many of the top current players.
Accomplishments? Shall we argue which is the greater accomplishment, GSI or MSL? If Flash wins the OSL, he would have accomplished much more than your beloved Bisu (although, for his age, most can argue he already has).
If you want to use a player for comparison, use Nada, Oov, or Savior. Bisu was never that dominant; he is more like the JulyZerg of Protoss; revitalized standard play and won a few tourneys because of that.
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On March 06 2008 02:58 DA_Greeks wrote:
Wow... from this thread I can see Flash has too many fanboys. Bisu has proven himself from his accomplishments. Flash has done nothing yet compared to Bisu. Until he proves himself worthy of winning game after game after game for an extended time (like Bisu did) then yes... adore him. Until then stop it please.
Its not fanboyism, its the winner of this thread title.
"Bacchus OSL Semifinals A - Bisu vs Flash"
Wtf is wrong with praising his amazing play and strats. Currently, he is kicking more asses than Bisu, deal with it.
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No offense to Bisu or stork. No denying the fact, that flahs played awesome and deserved to win, but: Simply skipping carriers and going mass ground as fast as possible and starting a timed attack with 4-5 groups of zeals/goons could have been the strategy to go..
But all u idiots who argue that flash won because stork and bisu sucked.. that is teh nonsense..
I still think flashs start is designed vs carrier toss play and playing a very very focused strategy on ground units could have been or could be the counter in the future.
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On March 06 2008 04:30 FeArTeHsCoUrGe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2008 02:58 DA_Greeks wrote:
Wow... from this thread I can see Flash has too many fanboys. Bisu has proven himself from his accomplishments. Flash has done nothing yet compared to Bisu. Until he proves himself worthy of winning game after game after game for an extended time (like Bisu did) then yes... adore him. Until then stop it please. Bisu never, ever, ever, won game after game after game for an extended period of time. His reign was never that dominant, not even close. Bisu invented a dominant strategy vs Zerg (particularly vs Savior), winning his first MSL. He barely beat Stork for the second MSL. It was downhill from there. With respect to top, top progamers, Bisu has always sucked vs Terran. HIs PvP was stable, his PvZ was amazing until Zerg players stopped following the Maestro's footsteps and started playing smart, aka using Hydras. Flash has only been playing SC for 3 years, and look what hes done. He won a tournament featuring the best of the best. He is in the OSL finals, and has beaten many of the top current players. Accomplishments? Shall we argue which is the greater accomplishment, GSI or MSL? If Flash wins the OSL, he would have accomplished much more than your beloved Bisu (although, for his age, most can argue he already has). If you want to use a player for comparison, use Nada, Oov, or Savior. Bisu was never that dominant; he is more like the JulyZerg of Protoss; revitalized standard play and won a few tourneys because of that.
Stop trolling these pages. NO ONE is saying Bisu is bonjwa. For you to compare Flash to the bonjwas is bullshit. He won an invitational tournament. Good for him he's playing well. Based on your logic I could say Flash came up with a good vs protoss. He hasn't even been able to dominate Jaedong (Its argueable that Jaedong is the better player). So lets put the fucking annointing oil away.
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Flash has been playing incredibly, I have to agree, but there will be no real answer until Jaedong and Flash play another series. I think personally that Jaedong will find a way to counter Flash's metal and reassert his dominance.
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i think we have to find a definition for bonjaw.. otherwise the discussion is stupid never the less..
For me personaly u cant be a bonjaw if u didnt at least win an osl or msl.. but whatever..
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On March 06 2008 06:19 Nick_54 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2008 04:30 FeArTeHsCoUrGe wrote:On March 06 2008 02:58 DA_Greeks wrote:
Wow... from this thread I can see Flash has too many fanboys. Bisu has proven himself from his accomplishments. Flash has done nothing yet compared to Bisu. Until he proves himself worthy of winning game after game after game for an extended time (like Bisu did) then yes... adore him. Until then stop it please. Bisu never, ever, ever, won game after game after game for an extended period of time. His reign was never that dominant, not even close. Bisu invented a dominant strategy vs Zerg (particularly vs Savior), winning his first MSL. He barely beat Stork for the second MSL. It was downhill from there. With respect to top, top progamers, Bisu has always sucked vs Terran. HIs PvP was stable, his PvZ was amazing until Zerg players stopped following the Maestro's footsteps and started playing smart, aka using Hydras. Flash has only been playing SC for 3 years, and look what hes done. He won a tournament featuring the best of the best. He is in the OSL finals, and has beaten many of the top current players. Accomplishments? Shall we argue which is the greater accomplishment, GSI or MSL? If Flash wins the OSL, he would have accomplished much more than your beloved Bisu (although, for his age, most can argue he already has). If you want to use a player for comparison, use Nada, Oov, or Savior. Bisu was never that dominant; he is more like the JulyZerg of Protoss; revitalized standard play and won a few tourneys because of that. Stop trolling these pages. NO ONE is saying Bisu is bonjwa. For you to compare Flash to the bonjwas is bullshit. He won an invitational tournament. Good for him he's playing well. Based on your logic I could say Flash came up with a good vs protoss. He hasn't even been able to dominate Jaedong (Its argueable that Jaedong is the better player). So lets put the fucking annointing oil away.
Point out where I compared Flash to a bonjwa? Guess what: I didn't.
I merely responded to a person who is attempting to delineate Flash's current gaming status.
And, for a time many people were saying Bisu was the next Bonjwa. Alot of people. On these forums, buddy. You would think someone with your post count could recognize that obvious truth.
But I guess post count means nothing when all you do is go around calling legit arguers "trolls" without even reading the post.
Flash is on fire, just like Jaedong is on fire. Just like Bisu was on fire. Thats all there is too it.
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Bisu seemed imminently poised to claim the title of next Bonja. I'm still surprised he didn't, but that's I guess what he gets for having a matchup as weak as his P v T is
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United States10774 Posts
On March 06 2008 02:58 DA_Greeks wrote:
Wow... from this thread I can see Flash has too many fanboys. Bisu has proven himself from his accomplishments. Flash has done nothing yet compared to Bisu. Until he proves himself worthy of winning game after game after game for an extended time (like Bisu did) then yes... adore him. Until then stop it please.
I don't care what Flash has accomplished. What's wrong with liking a player for his style and simply what he's been doing recently?
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On March 06 2008 08:25 GeneralStan wrote:
Bisu seemed imminently poised to claim the title of next Bonja. I'm still surprised he didn't, but that's I guess what he gets for having a matchup as weak as his P v T is
His PvT is not weak. Why do people keep saying this?
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EPT
