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On October 29 2025 00:47 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
For the record. Not a single protoss was eliminated by zerg in the round of 16
in the round of 8 from 3 zergs only 1 survived. Mini was eliminated by a terran with an insane proxy barracks all in that was luck enough to be placed next to his base. Could have been 3 protoss in semis. We got 2 of them. No only that but Bisu was so close to make it to the finals if it wasnt for the failed zealot block to his sim city. Yet we are talking about all that bs.
Imbalanced yeah..
We should be praising Soma an amateur player for making history and here we are complaining about him abusing x stuff. When in reality is just him putting the time in to master areas from the game and optimizations that no a single zerg is close to that. Honestly is sad.
The fact that Bisu got to make a come back on Dominator shows the power of storm in PvZ.
Zerg never wins from behind, ever.
But imba matchup.
The other Zergs also got owned 4-1.
Soma is a beast in the matchup he's a master between switching between making units and drones.
The fact he never played Kespa era is truly amazing.
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This finals was a bit disappointing, I think Snow choked a bit with Somas playstyle making him uncomfortable.
Soma played fantastic and was really greedy in a way that Snow was never able to punish. When he was aggressive he seemed to have a much stronger economy behind it than usual so even when Snow deflected the aggression he had a macro machine behind it so Snow couldn't benefit as much.
Soma made the matchup look unfair, but the matchup is only unfair due to how good Soma is and how his style and strengths counter Snow.
Snow did some things really well but Soma was simply the better player here.
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On October 29 2025 02:05 Barneyk wrote:
This finals was a bit disappointing, I think Snow choked a bit with Somas playstyle making him uncomfortable.
Soma played fantastic and was really greedy in a way that Snow was never able to punish. When he was aggressive he seemed to have a much stronger economy behind it than usual so even when Snow deflected the aggression he had a macro machine behind it so Snow couldn't benefit as much.
Soma made the matchup look unfair, but the matchup is only unfair due to how good Soma is and how his style and strengths counter Snow.
Snow did some things really well but Soma was simply the better player here.
Snow choking in a big game? Noooo wayyyyy
FUCK HYDRA BUST
ZvP is so fucking stupid Zerg controls way too much of the tempo of early game , fake hydra bust is just as strong
Fuck hydra bust Soma is a fraud champion like Royal or jyj
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On October 26 2025 19:56 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Let it grasp that a fucking amateur just won ASL. LET IT GRAPS . I DARE YOU TO SLEEP ON SOMAS NAME AGAIN YOU DOUBTERS. THE NEW ZERG KING HAS ARRIVED HOLY SHIT
WOWWWWW HYDRA BUST SO SKILLED OMG HOLY SHIT
He got ahead 2 games with fake hydra bust and won 2 games with hydra bust. But no lets talk about the new "zerg king"
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On October 28 2025 21:14 Soulforged wrote:
Rush distances are considered imbalanced by map makers, if Z cannot make creep+sunken reactively on terran bio move out. If they have to place creep colonies in advance, that's considered too hard for Z
No one made that distinction for hydras and cannons. Best moves P have are scouting it early, winning time with the wall and zealots and probe pulls, and occasionally making some cannons blindly and cancelling them depending on scouting.
The TLDR is that map makers almost never cared about P.
Edit:
To be fair, there are some nice points in the maps for P, such as we finally got the easy to wall naturals, more horizontal chokes, occasional nice-to-cannon-rush natural lineup, and gaps in the minerals for zealots to sit in.
Those are all nice and should be acknowledged.
Just not helping with the lack of scouting much.
Alternative routes to get a worker inside main such as mineralwalk usually help.
10 mineral patches in main make P timings more crisp and easier to defend everything(or to put pressure and avoid having to defend).
The highground nat, obviously.
These are pretty rare map features.
Great points! You should make a thread about this, and maybe tagging the resident mapmakers on this forums for considerations. Freakling, Jukado, CrystalDrag and others.
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It is still hard to grasp how JYJ and Royal has ASL wins when Best, Bisu, Snow, Hero doesn't lol.
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On October 29 2025 02:36 Barneyk wrote:
It is still hard to grasp how JYJ and Royal has ASL wins when Best, Bisu, Snow, Hero doesn't lol.
this is just asking for a tesagi response.
fuck it. lets really dissect the imbalances in starcraft.
it sucks to be protoss against zerg. it sucks to be zerg against terran. it sucks to be protoss against terran. wait..what?
zerg kinda imba but terran really imba. end thread
also on that snow vid, him being unlucky was in relation to spawn positions.
he had specific builds/game plans prepared for very specific spawn locations. throughout the entire series he didnt get the spawn he wanted in any of his games, and so he got tilted and 12 nex game 5 or whatever it was.
he doesnt think he was playing very well, but if he had luck on his side then there would be a way to come back into games despite the poor performances. he rues that he didnt even have luck on his side to make up for his worse than usual performance (due to his own nerves).
and a viewer specifically asks him about pvz balance to which he replies basically "ohhhh shut up. i was simply the worse player. there were games i could have won still if i played it better". although to be fair, not a single pro is going to seriously discuss the issue of balance, especially with their viewers (except the gigachad that is stork).
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i dont know if this has been brought up already but another thing that imo makes it harder for protoss in pvz is the bo7 format.
the more games you have to play to win the more the law of averages is gonna work in zergs favour. pvz is like 2 guys playing poker, except the zerg player always knows whats behind one of the protoss' cards. is protoss never going to win any hands? no. but you play enough rounds zerg is going to come out on top.
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honestly this was a bad series. tbh the entire tournament had pretty disappointing games overall. just so many times where its like 'and now the guy walks across the map and kills the other guy who had nothing' or 'and now this one dude totally misplays an island map as if hes never played it before'. We never really got a single 'proper' pvz where there multiple bases and hive tech etc. Kinda the last game fits that bill and kinda the first game -- but roaring currents lets you take 4 bases immediately and snow played the map bad, and the last game snow just walked out and got smashed against lair tech spam. blagh. I'll remember bisu vs soma on dominator but otherwise the entire tournament was forgettable.
edit: as histories best reaver player, snow should've leaned into reaver and harass play more. ofc maybe he had intentions cuz half the games just ended with soma walking across the map and pew pewing cannons. so boring.
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Don't have time to read the thread but... TMNT, where you at?
It's soma the shark vs Snow the slug, can't expect anything else in a tournament setting. I see people mentioning Bisu - he's had his due boys, he's the anti-Jaedong, always shows up, nobody expects him to advance but he does.
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On October 29 2025 00:47 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
For the record. Not a single protoss was eliminated by zerg in the round of 16
in the round of 8 from 3 zergs only 1 survived. Mini was eliminated by a terran with an insane proxy barracks all in that was luck enough to be placed next to his base. Could have been 3 protoss in semis. We got 2 of them. No only that but Bisu was so close to make it to the finals if it wasnt for the failed zealot block to his sim city. Yet we are talking about all that bs.
Imbalanced yeah..
We should be praising Soma an amateur player for making history and here we are complaining about him abusing x stuff. When in reality is just him putting the time in to master areas from the game and optimizations that no a single zerg is close to that. Honestly is sad.
I like how you always use the "what if" argument but only from the Protoss side. It's the definition of bias. For example, Bisu was so close to the finals with the zealot block, but he was also so close to getting 1-4'd by Soma (with a single win by the 2 Gate cheese) if not for Soma throwing the Dominator game himself. Why the other side of that argument is not taken into account?
I said it many times, it's not the result (who beats whom) that matters. It's the manner of the win/loss that matters. If Snow lost 4 games to Soma just like in the Knockout game, I would have no complaint. The Uldomok game is a map loss. It's a one off thing, so we can put that aside. The true bs is the two hydra bust game. You've never addressed that advantage of Zerg or pointed out how to deal with it in a reliable way from the Protoss side.
Tell me, why every Zerg player has much better win rate in ZvP than ZvT? Doesn't that mean ZvP is easier than ZvT, which means T>Z>P? Or do you think ZvP is balanced and Z players just happens to be better than P players, but at the same time, T players are not better than Z players but the T race is imba. How does that work out as far as logic is concerned lol?
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Ngl late hydra bust switch should not be a thing
Also disappointed in another protoss in Roaring Currents. Sometimes it looks like they are just mass clicking and mass making stuff
Cant lie this is definitely disappointing finals.
On October 28 2025 09:06 Villainiquity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2025 09:18 Brett wrote:
Updated since my ASL 17 post:
In the history of BW starleagues (MSL, OSL, ASL), protoss has won 17 finals, terran 34, and zerg 30 (including ASL 20).
If you look at results from just the past 20 years, protoss has won 10 (3 in ASL), terran 26 (8 in ASL) and zerg 30 (9 in ASL)
ZvP finals results: 12:2
The two protoss finals wins vs zerg were in 2000 (Garimto beat Skelton) and 2006/7 (Bisu beat Savior).
LOL
ZvP finals 12:2 record is brutal. That's proof for me ZvP is unfair at highest level. I wonder if Blizzard won't balance patch, can UMS be used? (make two DTs merge faster? i feel maelstrom is the key ability to counter Z, maybe make it cheaper, idk - affects ZvP mostly, not PvT).
I'd rather not blizzard handle any balance if starcraft 2 is any indication
Just give more protoss favored maps if zerg is so skewed in performance vs them anyways. Basically same logic why most maps have only one opening towards the main base and even when there are two there is some catch like destructable terrain or something
Cause zerglings are busted
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I am not seeing any angle where Zerg isnt favored vs Protoss in the matchup at the highest levels tbqh. Just make more inherently favorable protoss maps is the solution. Dont touch balance
The highground 2nd bases forever sounds like a good idea to shut most hydra busts up. It would only take actual all-in unscouted hydra busts should work
This is coming from a perspective of a nonprotoss player.
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if pvz is so unfavored how comes last 5 seasons it has come to a single zerg doing all the job ?
Remember when 973 reached an 80% WR in the hands of queen and everyone screamed that the build destroyed zerg vs protoss ? How many times 973 was used in semis or finals ? How comes Jaedong and Effort and Hero And Queen arent using the so called unbeatable builds that you all claim Soma uses and are unstoppable ? When are we going to actually take player peformance as factor in a freaking Final ? Never i guess. Yo that is so easy. so each season we got like x number of protoss x number of zergs and terrans. And then we got a round of 8 most of the time with 2 zergs and for some crazy reason zvp is busted. Yeah sure. I always found interesting that we keep shittin on players doing a whole amazing season and then we end up with balance claims. So why the hell arent we getting each season a zerg vs zerg final. or 4-5 zerg in the round of 8.
TMNT you dont play starcraft. So telling you how to hold those builds first of all is going to be useless cuz you are not going to agree with it. Second After all the energy i wasted explaining The Queen vs Shuttle situation and how people werent giving enough credit to shuttle i told myself i will no waste such energy on TL again.
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On October 28 2025 23:00 foxmeep wrote:
I don't disagree PvZ is difficult to play but Soma is a master at managing his economy while putting on/faking pressure. The fact is he simply played better. Snow going for DTs every time was a braindead move, Soma was too well prepared for it. If Snow ever had more than 2 zealots alive to tank for cannons and early legs he wouldn't have died to hydra bust. Bisu nearly beat Soma if not for some random air map which clearly carrier/sair while a nice idea gets shit on by devourers/muta, and a zergling runby he could have blocked.
Edit: Polestar was legit D rank play. What is that building placement lol.
One thing often mentioned, but forgotten here is mineral boosting. Soma does it quite efficiently every time. I wonder, what is the protoss response to that? Do protoss players boost every game?
I calculated the whole hydralisk tech tree takes 201s starting from the pool. If you add a hatchery as well*, in 276 you can have your 16 hydra midgame push. The proper response to that is teching up to templar archives and researching zealot legs, however I cannot work out the math from 1 gate. 2 gate from the start is essential. You make 11 zealots, 2HTs into 1 archon by the time zealot legs are completed. Btw, I only gave that example because 16H and 11Z+1A are cost equivalent in their tech trees. However, 11Z+1A takes only 233.5 seconds. You have a 40 second lead on the hydrabust which is why I assume the current meta response is incorrect.
PS: my assumption that my math is correct is because it only takes 2450/750 for zerg to do that tech tree and 16hydras, while 2550/750 for 11Z+1A protoss. A single 9 probe single base collects 619.5 minerals per minute. In 4:36 you can easily make that mark.
*=I made a mistake here. You don't need the second hatchery. That brings the rush down to 201, but you finish zealot legs at 198 so it still checks out at an earlier spot. I included the hatchery for frame of reference. You can spawn it like an expansion and have all proceeds go to upgrading it with no effect on the rush. This goes like a 1 base strategy from both zerg and protoss. I hope to include the same expansion point for protoss.
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A shoddy performance from snow unfortunately. There were loads of weird micro mistakes throughout the series where he threw away units or failed to take good fights. Getting baited from a strong position on his third in the last game is one example, throwing away zeals in the first games is another. Was he nervous?
None of that detracts from soma's performance which was clean, aggressive and strong. Well played.
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It's really not hard to see if you have one eye and half a brain why Snow lost to the two hydra busts.
Both times he had dog shit sim city, slow cannons (yes they were slightly slow every time don't act like he made them "on time"). He under produced zealots and lost 4 of them both times for literally zero damage.
Hint: zealots take half damage from hydras. If you don't have them your cannons melt.
ZvP was 15-26 in ASL if you remove that stupid air map from the stats. There were plenty of games hydra bust got held easy. Hardly an unwinnable matchup.
You people should be mad at Snow for playing like garbage. That's the real disappointment here.
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It's also worth noting that zerg were getting destroyed by protoss throughout most of the tournament, and that small sample sizes arent reliable especially when one player drives so much of that statistic. If the pros aren't complaining about balance and you are--- maybe your just a whiny bitch boy who's venting cuz he's shit on the ladder? Worth consideration. 
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On October 29 2025 05:54 foxmeep wrote:
It's really not hard to see if you have one eye and half a brain why Snow lost to the two hydra busts.
Both times he had dog shit sim city, slow cannons (yes they were slightly slow every time don't act like he made them "on time"). He under produced zealots and lost 4 of them both times for literally zero damage.
Hint: zealots take half damage from hydras. If you don't have them your cannons melt.
ZvP was 15-26 in ASL if you remove that stupid air map from the stats. There were plenty of games hydra bust got held easy. Hardly an unwinnable matchup.
You people should be mad at Snow for playing like garbage. That's the real disappointment here.
Spitting facts here. I mean look at game 5 - Snow was on top of his shit that game, made cannons to stop the hydras, soma immediately goes back into droning (which is supposed to be THE unstoppable zerg counter to cannon-making according to some in this thread) and then Z dies 5 minutes later.
Snow didn't play his best, soma was on point, and zergs die to protoss all the time in the ASL. It's been 1 or 2 zergs making deep runs the last few seasons while the rest die early. No zerg except Soulkey and soma have survived the ro8 in the last 3 seasons.
On October 29 2025 00:47 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
When in reality is just him putting the time in to master areas from the game and optimizations that no a single zerg is close to that.
This Soulkey slander shall not stand.
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we wouldn’t be having this crying if bisu had won one more game vs soma
snow is a weak pvz player and didn’t prepare anything special besides roaring currents, and didn’t have an answer for soma’s hydralisk timings
relying on cannons which are static defense + having difficulties with fog of war is pretty shit for protoss, but snow was outplayed by soma 10x
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EPT
