Fairly new to BW forums, been watching ASL since season 5 as well as some other BW tournies like KCM - why does no one talk about worker production or cutting workers in BW when it comes to Protoss and Terran? I've seen just so much whining about Zerg being OP the last few seasons, but there seems to be a disconnect. When they lose it's always 'their fault' but when they win it's cause they're busted - ignoring what actually happened in-game. Let's look at Game 2:
soma shows up at 7:20 with a hydra bust on 53 supply. Snow has 4 Corsairs, 3 zealots, and 66 supply. Subtract out his standing army and you have 52 workers! He can't have more than 4 supply of units in production because he is on 2 base with 1 gateway and 1 stargate, so 48 probes on the low end. In SC2 we call this greed. Whether he saw the corner of the hydra den at this point with either the corsair scout or zealot is immaterial - he has access to tons of soma's ZvP games and can see him dropping simultaneous Den and Spire game after game, so he should know he needs to do his diligence with his scouting or prep for both possibilities, not poke with a single corsair then go home and wait till he has 4 more ready.
I'm getting into the weeds a bit and I don't mean to criticize Snow, the dude's a god. I don't understand the rationale behind the 4 zealot pressure or some of his other moves this series that came back to bite him and I don't pretend to. What I'm critiquing is the armchair analysis here that says there's literally no way Snow could have survived. He could have not gifted 4 zealots at 6 mins, or made his cannons earlier (he has money), or stopped making corsairs after he scouted the hydra bust, or made more than 2 production structures, and that's not to mention the different openers he could have gone for because his opener was already good vs 9 hatch.
In my viewing, Snow played greedy and soma punished. And it was close, not a landslide. Why do we act like zerg is the only race that has a choice whether to build workers or not?
On October 28 2025 00:09 kidcrash wrote: The way you Nerf hydra busts without buffing a cannon rush is to change the size of protoss buildings while warping in so they receive less damage from explosive units. This way, things like lings, zealots and marines still do the same amount of damage while a cannon is warping in.
I think is an unneeded over-complication.
And cannon rushes are not something that Zerg cannot defend against. They get to scout it instantly, there are multiple ways to get out of it.
I think the only real solution is a single-target change and in order for that to work it cannot be for a unit since those have an effect on all aspects of the game state and also other match-ups.
There are two good options:
- cannon build time - cannon increased shield/armor when finished at least 50%
These are limited buffs that do not affect Zerg except in stopping them having too many early all-ins and semi-allins, which no one likes at a competitive level.
Pick whichever option is best against Zerg and not too dominating against Vultures and you have a win.
People are underestimating how much more difficult having decent maps for P against Z is.
On October 28 2025 07:39 sc2turtlepants wrote: Fairly new to BW forums, been watching ASL since season 5 as well as some other BW tournies like KCM - why does no one talk about worker production or cutting workers in BW when it comes to Protoss and Terran? I've seen just so much whining about Zerg being OP the last few seasons, but there seems to be a disconnect. When they lose it's always 'their fault' but when they win it's cause they're busted - ignoring what actually happened in-game. Let's look at Game 2:
soma shows up at 7:20 with a hydra bust on 53 supply. Snow has 4 Corsairs, 3 zealots, and 66 supply. Subtract out his standing army and you have 52 workers! He can't have more than 4 supply of units in production because he is on 2 base with 1 gateway and 1 stargate, so 48 probes on the low end. In SC2 we call this greed. Whether he saw the corner of the hydra den at this point with either the corsair scout or zealot is immaterial - he has access to tons of soma's ZvP games and can see him dropping simultaneous Den and Spire game after game, so he should know he needs to do his diligence with his scouting or prep for both possibilities, not poke with a single corsair then go home and wait till he has 4 more ready.
I'm getting into the weeds a bit and I don't mean to criticize Snow, the dude's a god. I don't understand the rationale behind the 4 zealot pressure or some of his other moves this series that came back to bite him and I don't pretend to. What I'm critiquing is the armchair analysis here that says there's literally no way Snow could have survived. He could have not gifted 4 zealots at 6 mins, or made his cannons earlier (he has money), or stopped making corsairs after he scouted the hydra bust, or made more than 2 production structures, and that's not to mention the different openers he could have gone for because his opener was already good vs 9 hatch.
In my viewing, Snow played greedy and soma punished. And it was close, not a landslide. Why do we act like zerg is the only race that has a choice whether to build workers or not?
A few people already answered that: you can't prep for all possibilities as Protoss. Not at this level, nor should you. What you are suggesting is something like to interrupt probe production, build extra cannons at both main and nat to be safe, keep zealots at home to block hydra bust. Yes that gives you safety against both possibilities, but there's a third one: Zerg is dropping a 4th base somewhere and/or droning like crazy. In that case you're just sacking your own economy AND having a tons of deadweight in static defense.
In that game Snow's probe saw the Spire at 5:00 (Soma's mistake - he shouldn't have let the probe in anyway) so it's a very normal move for zealots to move out afterwards, because you know hydras can't be there once the zealots arrive at Zerg's base. You're speaking under the assumption that Snow knew Soma dropped both Spire and Den, but he didn't. Soma could very well play a normal game, or go Orge Zerg gamer. That's the advantage of Zerg. There's not a reliable way to tell a zealot move out from Protoss in this phase of the game is a good or bad idea, that's why we say Protoss always has to take risk in this match up. And zealots are not like vultures who can turn around once they see no opportunities.
Regarding the probe count, that's normal number from constant probe production from 2 Nexus, which is BW economic 101 stuff. You want to reach saturation immediately once you have your 3rd Nexus, just like Terran with their 3rd CC. But honestly, I don't know if cutting probe would help. Say you are only on 40 probes at that point in the game instead of 48, that gives you an extra 400 minerals, so you can build 2 extra cannons for Hydra and 1 extra in main for Muta, or something like that. In that case, even if Zerg does intend to go for the bust, he could just back off and macro, while you're stuck at the situation I described in the first paragraph.
On October 27 2025 09:18 Brett wrote: Updated since my ASL 17 post:
In the history of BW starleagues (MSL, OSL, ASL), protoss has won 17 finals, terran 34, and zerg 30 (including ASL 20).
If you look at results from just the past 20 years, protoss has won 10 (3 in ASL), terran 26 (8 in ASL) and zerg 30 (9 in ASL)
ZvP finals results: 12:2 The two protoss finals wins vs zerg were in 2000 (Garimto beat Skelton) and 2006/7 (Bisu beat Savior).
LOL
ZvP finals 12:2 record is brutal. That's proof for me ZvP is unfair at highest level. I wonder if Blizzard won't balance patch, can UMS be used? (make two DTs merge faster? i feel maelstrom is the key ability to counter Z, maybe make it cheaper, idk - affects ZvP mostly, not PvT).
Also I find TMNT's takes the most knowledgeable, with articulate responses.
On October 28 2025 07:39 sc2turtlepants wrote: Fairly new to BW forums, been watching ASL since season 5 as well as some other BW tournies like KCM - why does no one talk about worker production or cutting workers in BW when it comes to Protoss and Terran? I've seen just so much whining about Zerg being OP the last few seasons, but there seems to be a disconnect. When they lose it's always 'their fault' but when they win it's cause they're busted - ignoring what actually happened in-game. Let's look at Game 2:
soma shows up at 7:20 with a hydra bust on 53 supply. Snow has 4 Corsairs, 3 zealots, and 66 supply. Subtract out his standing army and you have 52 workers! He can't have more than 4 supply of units in production because he is on 2 base with 1 gateway and 1 stargate, so 48 probes on the low end. In SC2 we call this greed. Whether he saw the corner of the hydra den at this point with either the corsair scout or zealot is immaterial - he has access to tons of soma's ZvP games and can see him dropping simultaneous Den and Spire game after game, so he should know he needs to do his diligence with his scouting or prep for both possibilities, not poke with a single corsair then go home and wait till he has 4 more ready.
I'm getting into the weeds a bit and I don't mean to criticize Snow, the dude's a god. I don't understand the rationale behind the 4 zealot pressure or some of his other moves this series that came back to bite him and I don't pretend to. What I'm critiquing is the armchair analysis here that says there's literally no way Snow could have survived. He could have not gifted 4 zealots at 6 mins, or made his cannons earlier (he has money), or stopped making corsairs after he scouted the hydra bust, or made more than 2 production structures, and that's not to mention the different openers he could have gone for because his opener was already good vs 9 hatch.
In my viewing, Snow played greedy and soma punished. And it was close, not a landslide. Why do we act like zerg is the only race that has a choice whether to build workers or not?
Reasonable post. I think this is one of those things that make Bisu so good in PvZ - he usually anticipates whatever tech switch or cheese could be thrown at him by Zergs and makes an extra cannon here and there. + Show Spoiler +
btw you shouldn't try too hard to argue with some people, the armchair experts you mentioned have infinite energy to defend any decision made by the losing player with near religious conviction. its always the matchup and the maps and blizzard pls!! balance patch this 30 year old game!! zergs always have 1k/1k banked and can make muta at any time!! zerg always know whether protoss has 44 or 48 probes so they can just expand!! protoss needs 60 probes on 2 base because they might take a third 5 minutes later!!! bullshit zerg make units and attak honorable protooss very unfair!! zerg free win race blizzard pls nerf
Asking for balance patches is asking for trouble. Let players solve the issues themselves as they always have, or worst case start using maps that are better for PvZ.
A balance patch will never happen. Though I do think if they gave a graphical update where upgrades and training units will show an animation in their respective buildings for all races would make things more fair. Zerg buildings not showing any animations with upgrades compounds the information war against P even harder. Maybe even color code the hatching eggs depending on which unit is being built i.e. black for mutas, blue for hydras etc.
On October 28 2025 07:39 sc2turtlepants wrote: Fairly new to BW forums, been watching ASL since season 5 as well as some other BW tournies like KCM - why does no one talk about worker production or cutting workers in BW when it comes to Protoss and Terran? I've seen just so much whining about Zerg being OP the last few seasons, but there seems to be a disconnect. When they lose it's always 'their fault' but when they win it's cause they're busted - ignoring what actually happened in-game. Let's look at Game 2:
soma shows up at 7:20 with a hydra bust on 53 supply. Snow has 4 Corsairs, 3 zealots, and 66 supply. Subtract out his standing army and you have 52 workers! He can't have more than 4 supply of units in production because he is on 2 base with 1 gateway and 1 stargate, so 48 probes on the low end. In SC2 we call this greed. Whether he saw the corner of the hydra den at this point with either the corsair scout or zealot is immaterial - he has access to tons of soma's ZvP games and can see him dropping simultaneous Den and Spire game after game, so he should know he needs to do his diligence with his scouting or prep for both possibilities, not poke with a single corsair then go home and wait till he has 4 more ready.
I'm getting into the weeds a bit and I don't mean to criticize Snow, the dude's a god. I don't understand the rationale behind the 4 zealot pressure or some of his other moves this series that came back to bite him and I don't pretend to. What I'm critiquing is the armchair analysis here that says there's literally no way Snow could have survived. He could have not gifted 4 zealots at 6 mins, or made his cannons earlier (he has money), or stopped making corsairs after he scouted the hydra bust, or made more than 2 production structures, and that's not to mention the different openers he could have gone for because his opener was already good vs 9 hatch.
In my viewing, Snow played greedy and soma punished. And it was close, not a landslide. Why do we act like zerg is the only race that has a choice whether to build workers or not?
Reasonable post. I think this is one of those things that make Bisu so good in PvZ - he usually anticipates whatever tech switch or cheese could be thrown at him by Zergs and makes an extra cannon here and there. + Show Spoiler +
btw you shouldn't try too hard to argue with some people, the armchair experts you mentioned have infinite energy to defend any decision made by the losing player with near religious conviction. its always the matchup and the maps and blizzard pls!! balance patch this 30 year old game!! zergs always have 1k/1k banked and can make muta at any time!! zerg always know whether protoss has 44 or 48 probes so they can just expand!! protoss needs 60 probes on 2 base because they might take a third 5 minutes later!!! bullshit zerg make units and attak honorable protooss very unfair!! zerg free win race blizzard pls nerf
Anticipation. Just like how Bisu died from Mutas on Radeon a week ago, or should have died if not for Soma throwing the game himself on Dominator. Or like how he died to the Double Den switch from Soulkey a few seasons ago. Or like how he died to the cancelled Lair into Hydra bust from Soulkey a few seasons before that.
I don't know where you get the "Bisu usually makes an extra cannon here and there" from. No Protoss does that because there's no principles to do that, unless we're talking about blind guess. In fact Bisu usually gets the minumum amount of cannons needed, so he often ends up in the probe-pulling, last ditch effort like in the Dominator game last week. If he dies to hydra bust less than other Protosses, it could only be because of his early game zealot control that sets Zergs back a lot more than they would like that the hydra bust becomes less potent.
On October 28 2025 07:39 sc2turtlepants wrote: Fairly new to BW forums, been watching ASL since season 5 as well as some other BW tournies like KCM - why does no one talk about worker production or cutting workers in BW when it comes to Protoss and Terran? I've seen just so much whining about Zerg being OP the last few seasons, but there seems to be a disconnect. When they lose it's always 'their fault' but when they win it's cause they're busted - ignoring what actually happened in-game. Let's look at Game 2:
soma shows up at 7:20 with a hydra bust on 53 supply. Snow has 4 Corsairs, 3 zealots, and 66 supply. Subtract out his standing army and you have 52 workers! He can't have more than 4 supply of units in production because he is on 2 base with 1 gateway and 1 stargate, so 48 probes on the low end. In SC2 we call this greed. Whether he saw the corner of the hydra den at this point with either the corsair scout or zealot is immaterial - he has access to tons of soma's ZvP games and can see him dropping simultaneous Den and Spire game after game, so he should know he needs to do his diligence with his scouting or prep for both possibilities, not poke with a single corsair then go home and wait till he has 4 more ready.
I'm getting into the weeds a bit and I don't mean to criticize Snow, the dude's a god. I don't understand the rationale behind the 4 zealot pressure or some of his other moves this series that came back to bite him and I don't pretend to. What I'm critiquing is the armchair analysis here that says there's literally no way Snow could have survived. He could have not gifted 4 zealots at 6 mins, or made his cannons earlier (he has money), or stopped making corsairs after he scouted the hydra bust, or made more than 2 production structures, and that's not to mention the different openers he could have gone for because his opener was already good vs 9 hatch.
In my viewing, Snow played greedy and soma punished. And it was close, not a landslide. Why do we act like zerg is the only race that has a choice whether to build workers or not?
A few people already answered that: you can't prep for all possibilities as Protoss. Not at this level, nor should you. What you are suggesting is something like to interrupt probe production, build extra cannons at both main and nat to be safe, keep zealots at home to block hydra bust. Yes that gives you safety against both possibilities, but there's a third one: Zerg is dropping a 4th base somewhere and/or droning like crazy. In that case you're just sacking your own economy AND having a tons of deadweight in static defense.
In that game Snow's probe saw the Spire at 5:00 (Soma's mistake - he shouldn't have let the probe in anyway) so it's a very normal move for zealots to move out afterwards, because you know hydras can't be there once the zealots arrive at Zerg's base. You're speaking under the assumption that Snow knew Soma dropped both Spire and Den, but he didn't. Soma could very well play a normal game, or go Orge Zerg gamer. That's the advantage of Zerg. There's not a reliable way to tell a zealot move out from Protoss in this phase of the game is a good or bad idea, that's why we say Protoss always has to take risk in this match up. And zealots are not like vultures who can turn around once they see no opportunities.
Regarding the probe count, that's normal number from constant probe production from 2 Nexus, which is BW economic 101 stuff. You want to reach saturation immediately once you have your 3rd Nexus, just like Terran with their 3rd CC. But honestly, I don't know if cutting probe would help. Say you are only on 40 probes at that point in the game instead of 48, that gives you an extra 400 minerals, so you can build 2 extra cannons for Hydra and 1 extra in main for Muta, or something like that. In that case, even if Zerg does intend to go for the bust, he could just back off and macro, while you're stuck at the situation I described in the first paragraph.
Dude, stop with this unverified blind assumption that protoss always wins with late game economic nonsense. You argued to death every decision shuttle did vs queen trying to upend the verdict that shuttle won decisively, that instead queen had it until he lost. You cannot argue there is a difference between pvz that when protoss does two nexus pushes they are risky for protoss, but when zerg does it that it is unstoppable and blizzard should patch it. The balance is just right where it needs to be, it is your bad decision making that is weighing heavy on your judgement. 973 is no less rewarding than two base protoss pushes that Shuttle demonstrated last season that you ignore are possible. Forget everything you say. This is the only way to play for protoss. This is not an accident. It is just that people like you think they know better than the game results. Protoss can demonstrate the same pushes against terran with 6+ dragoons. It is also possible against zerg, however you have blinded yourself to midgame pushes entirely, clinging stubbornly to failed late game pushes. Sometimes you have to be snow vs effort, but there are times that FAILS and you have to look elsewhere for a win. Luck favors the brave.
On October 28 2025 09:21 Katkishka wrote: Asking for balance patches is asking for trouble. Let players solve the issues themselves as they always have, or worst case start using maps that are better for PvZ.
We've been saying this for sooooo long now. It's always "fix the maps next season". I was in this camp too, and for a long time. How long are you content waiting for? Genuinely asking because this game won't be around forever, and we've been waiting for maps to fix PvZ for a long long time. .
On October 28 2025 00:09 kidcrash wrote: The way you Nerf hydra busts without buffing a cannon rush is to change the size of protoss buildings while warping in so they receive less damage from explosive units. This way, things like lings, zealots and marines still do the same amount of damage while a cannon is warping in.
I think is an unneeded over-complication.
And cannon rushes are not something that Zerg cannot defend against. They get to scout it instantly, there are multiple ways to get out of it.
I think the only real solution is a single-target change and in order for that to work it cannot be for a unit since those have an effect on all aspects of the game state and also other match-ups.
There are two good options:
- cannon build time - cannon increased shield/armor when finished at least 50%
These are limited buffs that do not affect Zerg except in stopping them having too many early all-ins and semi-allins, which no one likes at a competitive level.
Pick whichever option is best against Zerg and not too dominating against Vultures and you have a win.
People are underestimating how much more difficult having decent maps for P against Z is.
I don't see how the first option doesn't led canon rushing being absolutely brutal. And the second option seems more convoluted than my suggestion. It's literally just changing the unit size of the building while warping in.
On October 27 2025 07:23 mtcn77 wrote:Do you want an honest answer? Because I'm going to give an honest answer if this isn't one of those echo chamber balance whines.
1. map: zerg gets all 4 ground bases while protoss makes reaver, then ground army and gets the island. It should all be in reverse. Protoss should get all 4 ground bases and take out zerg's ground bases, not like moving out and retreating at the bridge like snow did. 2. map: FE build order auto defeat. You cannot win from this. Protoss and early map control are one and the same. Notice soma didn't even make mutas. Zerg has overlords, let them slowly crawl into your space. Do not give them map control like snow did AND 6 zealot 1 corsair gifts that do nothing in the early game. You know a random expo takes only 400 minerals? In a map like dominator, there is zero chance zerg can scout every main. Use your map control advantage. A random expo takes 75 seconds to make the nexus, 100.8 seconds 8 probes, 52 seconds thereafter to break even. Don't tell me you cannot hide a base for 52 seconds, once it has been operational. 3. map is a victory, so I'll pass. 4. map: again FE build order auto loss after giving full scout at 3 minutes while snow having zero scouting info at 3, or 8 minutes, apart from 6 minutes with a corsair. You cannot recover from giving full map control to zerg when you are cross spawn giving full flow of information in zerg control. Force zerg to make mutalisks, force them to make lurkers. Hit them with a bigger ground army. None were present in the game. 5. map: is again a victory, so I'll pass. 6. map: by this point soma is so much in control, he even stops FE making an early economy win for protoss by stopping early mining.
I don't think you are better than SnOw, why he didn't know what you know?
The weak point of Protoss can't cover all build order from Zerg. It's not SnOw's fault. soma lost all lings, still won; SnOw lost all zealots, lost; soma has no info, still won; SnOw has no info, lost.
Okay, you got me. I really believed you would have listened for once. I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Which brings me: you know, 1 stargate 1 corsair is the same amount of gas as a templar archive? I'm sure first corsair is as game breaking as having proper aoe.
Congratulations, you made a BUILDING and mutas are now flying into your base and you have no stargate to make corsairs. Or even if you made the templar, there's something called MICRO where the mutalisks move out from under storm even if you hit it right on them. But I suppose hoping for your Zerg opponent to momentarily lose all motor functions or have their mouse disconnect is about the best strategy for Protoss to reliably beat Zerg these days.
Idk, call all the pro Protoss players stupid, but maybe... just maybe, that corsair and stargate are useful for something.
I meant the archon.
Yes, the historically stupid, fat ass Archon that, while having the same range as a muta, can get outmicroed by a muta which can just fly around your base killing all your shit while the archon squirms around in in your buildings yearning to hit the mutas.
It's ok to just say you don't play the game mate and that you're just an armchair theorycrafter. Just don't pretend like your strategic insight holds any weight.
That last paragraph is straight what I'm going up against. Last season, people called me wrong that hallucinations would never work. Yet, this season Snow did make hallucinated shuttles in Roaring Currents. He also made archons, but I brought up hallucinations because it was totally outside the playbook for armchair knowitalls. It's not that I don't believe this is possible, it is because you don't believe it possible. When you make an assumption to the contrary of what pros believe to be true, you are the naysayer. Just stick to wins, not people like yourselves opinions and leave me out of it. None of you will be able to silence me until protoss starts winning and you better get used to playing the right way instead of advocating the wrong way.
On October 28 2025 09:21 Katkishka wrote: Asking for balance patches is asking for trouble. Let players solve the issues themselves as they always have, or worst case start using maps that are better for PvZ.
I mean 2013 5 hatch hydra was a horrible horrible time.
They did find a decent solution 6 years on but the robust volatility of Zerg is such a huge advantage in every final.
On October 27 2025 07:23 mtcn77 wrote:Do you want an honest answer? Because I'm going to give an honest answer if this isn't one of those echo chamber balance whines.
1. map: zerg gets all 4 ground bases while protoss makes reaver, then ground army and gets the island. It should all be in reverse. Protoss should get all 4 ground bases and take out zerg's ground bases, not like moving out and retreating at the bridge like snow did. 2. map: FE build order auto defeat. You cannot win from this. Protoss and early map control are one and the same. Notice soma didn't even make mutas. Zerg has overlords, let them slowly crawl into your space. Do not give them map control like snow did AND 6 zealot 1 corsair gifts that do nothing in the early game. You know a random expo takes only 400 minerals? In a map like dominator, there is zero chance zerg can scout every main. Use your map control advantage. A random expo takes 75 seconds to make the nexus, 100.8 seconds 8 probes, 52 seconds thereafter to break even. Don't tell me you cannot hide a base for 52 seconds, once it has been operational. 3. map is a victory, so I'll pass. 4. map: again FE build order auto loss after giving full scout at 3 minutes while snow having zero scouting info at 3, or 8 minutes, apart from 6 minutes with a corsair. You cannot recover from giving full map control to zerg when you are cross spawn giving full flow of information in zerg control. Force zerg to make mutalisks, force them to make lurkers. Hit them with a bigger ground army. None were present in the game. 5. map: is again a victory, so I'll pass. 6. map: by this point soma is so much in control, he even stops FE making an early economy win for protoss by stopping early mining.
I don't think you are better than SnOw, why he didn't know what you know?
The weak point of Protoss can't cover all build order from Zerg. It's not SnOw's fault. soma lost all lings, still won; SnOw lost all zealots, lost; soma has no info, still won; SnOw has no info, lost.
Okay, you got me. I really believed you would have listened for once. I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Which brings me: you know, 1 stargate 1 corsair is the same amount of gas as a templar archive? I'm sure first corsair is as game breaking as having proper aoe.
Congratulations, you made a BUILDING and mutas are now flying into your base and you have no stargate to make corsairs. Or even if you made the templar, there's something called MICRO where the mutalisks move out from under storm even if you hit it right on them. But I suppose hoping for your Zerg opponent to momentarily lose all motor functions or have their mouse disconnect is about the best strategy for Protoss to reliably beat Zerg these days.
Idk, call all the pro Protoss players stupid, but maybe... just maybe, that corsair and stargate are useful for something.
I meant the archon.
Yes, the historically stupid, fat ass Archon that, while having the same range as a muta, can get outmicroed by a muta which can just fly around your base killing all your shit while the archon squirms around in in your buildings yearning to hit the mutas.
It's ok to just say you don't play the game mate and that you're just an armchair theorycrafter. Just don't pretend like your strategic insight holds any weight.
That last paragraph is straight what I'm going up against. Last season, people called me wrong that hallucinations would never work. Yet, this season Snow did make hallucinated shuttles in Roaring Currents. He also made archons, but I brought up hallucinations because it was totally outside the playbook for armchair knowitalls. It's not that I don't believe this is possible, it is because you don't believe it possible. When you make an assumption to the contrary of what pros believe to be true, you are the naysayer. Just stick to wins, not people like yourselves opinions and leave me out of it. None of you will be able to silence me until protoss starts winning and you better get used to playing the right way instead of advocating the wrong way.
Using a lost game where the hallucinations did practically nothing is a great way to make your point. But please, by all means, keep going.
On October 27 2025 07:23 mtcn77 wrote:Do you want an honest answer? Because I'm going to give an honest answer if this isn't one of those echo chamber balance whines.
1. map: zerg gets all 4 ground bases while protoss makes reaver, then ground army and gets the island. It should all be in reverse. Protoss should get all 4 ground bases and take out zerg's ground bases, not like moving out and retreating at the bridge like snow did. 2. map: FE build order auto defeat. You cannot win from this. Protoss and early map control are one and the same. Notice soma didn't even make mutas. Zerg has overlords, let them slowly crawl into your space. Do not give them map control like snow did AND 6 zealot 1 corsair gifts that do nothing in the early game. You know a random expo takes only 400 minerals? In a map like dominator, there is zero chance zerg can scout every main. Use your map control advantage. A random expo takes 75 seconds to make the nexus, 100.8 seconds 8 probes, 52 seconds thereafter to break even. Don't tell me you cannot hide a base for 52 seconds, once it has been operational. 3. map is a victory, so I'll pass. 4. map: again FE build order auto loss after giving full scout at 3 minutes while snow having zero scouting info at 3, or 8 minutes, apart from 6 minutes with a corsair. You cannot recover from giving full map control to zerg when you are cross spawn giving full flow of information in zerg control. Force zerg to make mutalisks, force them to make lurkers. Hit them with a bigger ground army. None were present in the game. 5. map: is again a victory, so I'll pass. 6. map: by this point soma is so much in control, he even stops FE making an early economy win for protoss by stopping early mining.
I don't think you are better than SnOw, why he didn't know what you know?
The weak point of Protoss can't cover all build order from Zerg. It's not SnOw's fault. soma lost all lings, still won; SnOw lost all zealots, lost; soma has no info, still won; SnOw has no info, lost.
Okay, you got me. I really believed you would have listened for once. I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Which brings me: you know, 1 stargate 1 corsair is the same amount of gas as a templar archive? I'm sure first corsair is as game breaking as having proper aoe.
Congratulations, you made a BUILDING and mutas are now flying into your base and you have no stargate to make corsairs. Or even if you made the templar, there's something called MICRO where the mutalisks move out from under storm even if you hit it right on them. But I suppose hoping for your Zerg opponent to momentarily lose all motor functions or have their mouse disconnect is about the best strategy for Protoss to reliably beat Zerg these days.
Idk, call all the pro Protoss players stupid, but maybe... just maybe, that corsair and stargate are useful for something.
I meant the archon.
Yes, the historically stupid, fat ass Archon that, while having the same range as a muta, can get outmicroed by a muta which can just fly around your base killing all your shit while the archon squirms around in in your buildings yearning to hit the mutas.
It's ok to just say you don't play the game mate and that you're just an armchair theorycrafter. Just don't pretend like your strategic insight holds any weight.
That last paragraph is straight what I'm going up against. Last season, people called me wrong that hallucinations would never work. Yet, this season Snow did make hallucinated shuttles in Roaring Currents. He also made archons, but I brought up hallucinations because it was totally outside the playbook for armchair knowitalls. It's not that I don't believe this is possible, it is because you don't believe it possible. When you make an assumption to the contrary of what pros believe to be true, you are the naysayer. Just stick to wins, not people like yourselves opinions and leave me out of it. None of you will be able to silence me until protoss starts winning and you better get used to playing the right way instead of advocating the wrong way.
Using a lost game where the hallucinations did practically nothing is a great way to make your point. But please, by all means, keep going.
Lost game, on "grand finals" played by none other than everyone's favourite protoss loser. I can't believe you were cheering for a faker who held back since the first game, if you really believe that. It must be really bleak to hold snow to such a standard that his disappointment of his fans means only he didn't really play up to his usual self. This is a very single minded stubborn attitude. Look I'm not the one arguing protoss players should copy games Bisu invented in 2006 and hoping to win at 2025 riding on bisu's royal road. You have to be crazy to think builds Bisu invented, like FE, can be surpasses by copycats in retrospect. It just doesn't happen. You have to surprise your opponent. Soma wasn't surprised even to think mutalisks were necessary. If you want to win, you have to break out of the mold. I congratulate snow did this, just as I congratulate larva. If you break out of the mold you-so-successfully cast yourself into by cannonising bisu builds into the standard and only successful way of playing pvz; "You will have nothing and you will be happy." It is time we look to the future, not the past. PS: what I mean:+ Show Spoiler +
On October 15 2025 09:49 so0willprevail wrote: Too bad Bisu didn’t get Maelsteom vs Zerg mass air. Really think he would’ve won game 5
Getting Maelstrom would have required: Citadel of Adun - 150/100 - 38 seconds Templar Archives - 150/200 - 38 seconds Malestrom - 100/100 - 63 seconds 2 Dark Templar - 250/200
650 / 600 and 2:19.
I'm pretty sure there aren't 650 / 600 from Bisu's build that could be cut (Disruption Web is 200/200) to have it in time for the first major air battle which is when he lost the game, so realistically, getting a Dark Archon pushes the attack later which I'm not sure helps the Protoss player unless they get a magical hit.
I'm pretty sure if soma saw a Dark Archon, he just takes his air fleet and systematically destroys all of the island bases and never gives Bisu the fight he's looking for.
You give the island maps to zerg. You don't make air. Stop playing pvz like it is zvz. You don't have to have air in order to bust zerg.
On October 17 2025 16:15 Dante08 wrote: Bisu choked so hard on Roaring Currents, wtf was he doing man. He had 2 reavers sitting in his base the whole game when Soma took the expansions outside his base.
This is a bad read. Those 2 Reavers are all the ground army he had lol. You can use 2 Reavers to grab some Drones and run, you can't use them to fight mass Hydra. Plus, they're there to defend potential doom drop.
Watch more games on this map and you'll realise when P go full skytoss on this map, they have to give up all the land for Z. You can't have enough to control both air AND land. Ideally it'll be 5 base P (3 bottom islands) vs 7 base Z (1 top island) and you fight until one side runs out of steam.
Then why build the reavers? He could have at least used them to harass or join the main fight. Soma brought his hydras to fight whenever he could but Bisu just attacked randomly with only air units. Not saying he would have won but those reavers could have been really helpful in some of the fights.
To defend the main and nat in the earlier phase of the game when Carriers are not out yet, and the islands in the later phase. Isn't that obvious? The Reavers served their purpose. At that point in the game they're not that useful anymore. Visit the proleague thread and see the Mini vs Queen game on this map on 15 Oct to see the importance of the reavers during that phase. Since Protoss rushes for Carriers, Reavers are the only defence they have against Hydra bust.
Protoss players might be trying too hard to be perfectionists. Yes, zerg will dive at your army with mutalisks and try to hunt HTs. I said make archons and just weather zerg skirmishes until you can march on zerg creep, then your army will pay off. Nothing zerg has by this point can compare to zealots and archons. If zerg is smart it will stay behind with hydralisks waiting.
balance cannot and will not happen to BW. the only way things will move forward are with creative new builds that have been prevalent throughout key balance turning points in the history of BW (FD, Bisu Build, Fantasy Build, Mech Switch, etc) and maps.
1. map: zerg gets all 4 ground bases while protoss makes reaver, then ground army and gets the island. It should all be in reverse. Protoss should get all 4 ground bases and take out zerg's ground bases, not like moving out and retreating at the bridge like snow did. 2. map: FE build order auto defeat. You cannot win from this. Protoss and early map control are one and the same. Notice soma didn't even make mutas. Zerg has overlords, let them slowly crawl into your space. Do not give them map control like snow did AND 6 zealot 1 corsair gifts that do nothing in the early game. You know a random expo takes only 400 minerals? In a map like dominator, there is zero chance zerg can scout every main. Use your map control advantage. A random expo takes 75 seconds to make the nexus, 100.8 seconds 8 probes, 52 seconds thereafter to break even. Don't tell me you cannot hide a base for 52 seconds, once it has been operational. 3. map is a victory, so I'll pass. 4. map: again FE build order auto loss after giving full scout at 3 minutes while snow having zero scouting info at 3, or 8 minutes, apart from 6 minutes with a corsair. You cannot recover from giving full map control to zerg when you are cross spawn giving full flow of information in zerg control. Force zerg to make mutalisks, force them to make lurkers. Hit them with a bigger ground army. None were present in the game. 5. map: is again a victory, so I'll pass. 6. map: by this point soma is so much in control, he even stops FE making an early economy win for protoss by stopping early mining.
I don't think you are better than SnOw, why he didn't know what you know?
The weak point of Protoss can't cover all build order from Zerg. It's not SnOw's fault. soma lost all lings, still won; SnOw lost all zealots, lost; soma has no info, still won; SnOw has no info, lost.
Okay, you got me. I really believed you would have listened for once. I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Which brings me: you know, 1 stargate 1 corsair is the same amount of gas as a templar archive? I'm sure first corsair is as game breaking as having proper aoe.
Congratulations, you made a BUILDING and mutas are now flying into your base and you have no stargate to make corsairs. Or even if you made the templar, there's something called MICRO where the mutalisks move out from under storm even if you hit it right on them. But I suppose hoping for your Zerg opponent to momentarily lose all motor functions or have their mouse disconnect is about the best strategy for Protoss to reliably beat Zerg these days.
Idk, call all the pro Protoss players stupid, but maybe... just maybe, that corsair and stargate are useful for something.
I meant the archon.
Yes, the historically stupid, fat ass Archon that, while having the same range as a muta, can get outmicroed by a muta which can just fly around your base killing all your shit while the archon squirms around in in your buildings yearning to hit the mutas.
It's ok to just say you don't play the game mate and that you're just an armchair theorycrafter. Just don't pretend like your strategic insight holds any weight.
That last paragraph is straight what I'm going up against. Last season, people called me wrong that hallucinations would never work. Yet, this season Snow did make hallucinated shuttles in Roaring Currents. He also made archons, but I brought up hallucinations because it was totally outside the playbook for armchair knowitalls. It's not that I don't believe this is possible, it is because you don't believe it possible. When you make an assumption to the contrary of what pros believe to be true, you are the naysayer. Just stick to wins, not people like yourselves opinions and leave me out of it. None of you will be able to silence me until protoss starts winning and you better get used to playing the right way instead of advocating the wrong way.
Using a lost game where the hallucinations did practically nothing is a great way to make your point. But please, by all means, keep going.
Lost game, on "grand finals" played by none other than everyone's favourite protoss loser. I can't believe you were cheering for a faker who held back since the first game, if you really believe that. It must be really bleak to hold snow to such a standard that his disappointment of his fans means only he didn't really play up to his usual self. This is a very single minded stubborn attitude. Look I'm not the one arguing protoss players should copy games Bisu invented in 2006 and hoping to win at 2025 riding on bisu's royal road. You have to be crazy to think builds Bisu invented, like FE, can be surpasses by copycats in retrospect. It just doesn't happen. You have to surprise your opponent. Soma wasn't surprised even to think mutalisks were necessary. If you want to win, you have to break out of the mold. I congratulate snow did this, just as I congratulate larva. If you break out of the mold you-so-successfully cast yourself into by cannonising bisu builds into the standard and only successful way of playing pvz; "You will have nothing and you will be happy." It is time we look to the future, not the past. PS: what I mean:+ Show Spoiler +
On October 15 2025 09:49 so0willprevail wrote: Too bad Bisu didn’t get Maelsteom vs Zerg mass air. Really think he would’ve won game 5
Getting Maelstrom would have required: Citadel of Adun - 150/100 - 38 seconds Templar Archives - 150/200 - 38 seconds Malestrom - 100/100 - 63 seconds 2 Dark Templar - 250/200
650 / 600 and 2:19.
I'm pretty sure there aren't 650 / 600 from Bisu's build that could be cut (Disruption Web is 200/200) to have it in time for the first major air battle which is when he lost the game, so realistically, getting a Dark Archon pushes the attack later which I'm not sure helps the Protoss player unless they get a magical hit.
I'm pretty sure if soma saw a Dark Archon, he just takes his air fleet and systematically destroys all of the island bases and never gives Bisu the fight he's looking for.
You give the island maps to zerg. You don't make air. Stop playing pvz like it is zvz. You don't have to have air in order to bust zerg.
On October 17 2025 16:15 Dante08 wrote: Bisu choked so hard on Roaring Currents, wtf was he doing man. He had 2 reavers sitting in his base the whole game when Soma took the expansions outside his base.
This is a bad read. Those 2 Reavers are all the ground army he had lol. You can use 2 Reavers to grab some Drones and run, you can't use them to fight mass Hydra. Plus, they're there to defend potential doom drop.
Watch more games on this map and you'll realise when P go full skytoss on this map, they have to give up all the land for Z. You can't have enough to control both air AND land. Ideally it'll be 5 base P (3 bottom islands) vs 7 base Z (1 top island) and you fight until one side runs out of steam.
Then why build the reavers? He could have at least used them to harass or join the main fight. Soma brought his hydras to fight whenever he could but Bisu just attacked randomly with only air units. Not saying he would have won but those reavers could have been really helpful in some of the fights.
To defend the main and nat in the earlier phase of the game when Carriers are not out yet, and the islands in the later phase. Isn't that obvious? The Reavers served their purpose. At that point in the game they're not that useful anymore. Visit the proleague thread and see the Mini vs Queen game on this map on 15 Oct to see the importance of the reavers during that phase. Since Protoss rushes for Carriers, Reavers are the only defence they have against Hydra bust.
Protoss players might be trying too hard to be perfectionists. Yes, zerg will dive at your army with mutalisks and try to hunt HTs. I said make archons and just weather zerg skirmishes until you can march on zerg creep, then your army will pay off. Nothing zerg has by this point can compare to zealots and archons. If zerg is smart it will stay behind with hydralisks waiting.
I'll take the bait and ask again, for the sake of clarity :
What exactly is the correct PvZ strategy to play in order to achieve victory, that you keep talking about? Can you clarify, i.e. do we fast expand, which units to make, when is the timing push?
1. map: zerg gets all 4 ground bases while protoss makes reaver, then ground army and gets the island. It should all be in reverse. Protoss should get all 4 ground bases and take out zerg's ground bases, not like moving out and retreating at the bridge like snow did. 2. map: FE build order auto defeat. You cannot win from this. Protoss and early map control are one and the same. Notice soma didn't even make mutas. Zerg has overlords, let them slowly crawl into your space. Do not give them map control like snow did AND 6 zealot 1 corsair gifts that do nothing in the early game. You know a random expo takes only 400 minerals? In a map like dominator, there is zero chance zerg can scout every main. Use your map control advantage. A random expo takes 75 seconds to make the nexus, 100.8 seconds 8 probes, 52 seconds thereafter to break even. Don't tell me you cannot hide a base for 52 seconds, once it has been operational. 3. map is a victory, so I'll pass. 4. map: again FE build order auto loss after giving full scout at 3 minutes while snow having zero scouting info at 3, or 8 minutes, apart from 6 minutes with a corsair. You cannot recover from giving full map control to zerg when you are cross spawn giving full flow of information in zerg control. Force zerg to make mutalisks, force them to make lurkers. Hit them with a bigger ground army. None were present in the game. 5. map: is again a victory, so I'll pass. 6. map: by this point soma is so much in control, he even stops FE making an early economy win for protoss by stopping early mining.
I don't think you are better than SnOw, why he didn't know what you know?
The weak point of Protoss can't cover all build order from Zerg. It's not SnOw's fault. soma lost all lings, still won; SnOw lost all zealots, lost; soma has no info, still won; SnOw has no info, lost.
Okay, you got me. I really believed you would have listened for once. I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Which brings me: you know, 1 stargate 1 corsair is the same amount of gas as a templar archive? I'm sure first corsair is as game breaking as having proper aoe.
Congratulations, you made a BUILDING and mutas are now flying into your base and you have no stargate to make corsairs. Or even if you made the templar, there's something called MICRO where the mutalisks move out from under storm even if you hit it right on them. But I suppose hoping for your Zerg opponent to momentarily lose all motor functions or have their mouse disconnect is about the best strategy for Protoss to reliably beat Zerg these days.
Idk, call all the pro Protoss players stupid, but maybe... just maybe, that corsair and stargate are useful for something.
I meant the archon.
Yes, the historically stupid, fat ass Archon that, while having the same range as a muta, can get outmicroed by a muta which can just fly around your base killing all your shit while the archon squirms around in in your buildings yearning to hit the mutas.
It's ok to just say you don't play the game mate and that you're just an armchair theorycrafter. Just don't pretend like your strategic insight holds any weight.
That last paragraph is straight what I'm going up against. Last season, people called me wrong that hallucinations would never work. Yet, this season Snow did make hallucinated shuttles in Roaring Currents. He also made archons, but I brought up hallucinations because it was totally outside the playbook for armchair knowitalls. It's not that I don't believe this is possible, it is because you don't believe it possible. When you make an assumption to the contrary of what pros believe to be true, you are the naysayer. Just stick to wins, not people like yourselves opinions and leave me out of it. None of you will be able to silence me until protoss starts winning and you better get used to playing the right way instead of advocating the wrong way.
Using a lost game where the hallucinations did practically nothing is a great way to make your point. But please, by all means, keep going.
Lost game, on "grand finals" played by none other than everyone's favourite protoss loser. I can't believe you were cheering for a faker who held back since the first game, if you really believe that. It must be really bleak to hold snow to such a standard that his disappointment of his fans means only he didn't really play up to his usual self. This is a very single minded stubborn attitude. Look I'm not the one arguing protoss players should copy games Bisu invented in 2006 and hoping to win at 2025 riding on bisu's royal road. You have to be crazy to think builds Bisu invented, like FE, can be surpasses by copycats in retrospect. It just doesn't happen. You have to surprise your opponent. Soma wasn't surprised even to think mutalisks were necessary. If you want to win, you have to break out of the mold. I congratulate snow did this, just as I congratulate larva. If you break out of the mold you-so-successfully cast yourself into by cannonising bisu builds into the standard and only successful way of playing pvz; "You will have nothing and you will be happy." It is time we look to the future, not the past. PS: what I mean:+ Show Spoiler +
On October 15 2025 09:49 so0willprevail wrote: Too bad Bisu didn’t get Maelsteom vs Zerg mass air. Really think he would’ve won game 5
Getting Maelstrom would have required: Citadel of Adun - 150/100 - 38 seconds Templar Archives - 150/200 - 38 seconds Malestrom - 100/100 - 63 seconds 2 Dark Templar - 250/200
650 / 600 and 2:19.
I'm pretty sure there aren't 650 / 600 from Bisu's build that could be cut (Disruption Web is 200/200) to have it in time for the first major air battle which is when he lost the game, so realistically, getting a Dark Archon pushes the attack later which I'm not sure helps the Protoss player unless they get a magical hit.
I'm pretty sure if soma saw a Dark Archon, he just takes his air fleet and systematically destroys all of the island bases and never gives Bisu the fight he's looking for.
You give the island maps to zerg. You don't make air. Stop playing pvz like it is zvz. You don't have to have air in order to bust zerg.
On October 17 2025 16:15 Dante08 wrote: Bisu choked so hard on Roaring Currents, wtf was he doing man. He had 2 reavers sitting in his base the whole game when Soma took the expansions outside his base.
This is a bad read. Those 2 Reavers are all the ground army he had lol. You can use 2 Reavers to grab some Drones and run, you can't use them to fight mass Hydra. Plus, they're there to defend potential doom drop.
Watch more games on this map and you'll realise when P go full skytoss on this map, they have to give up all the land for Z. You can't have enough to control both air AND land. Ideally it'll be 5 base P (3 bottom islands) vs 7 base Z (1 top island) and you fight until one side runs out of steam.
Then why build the reavers? He could have at least used them to harass or join the main fight. Soma brought his hydras to fight whenever he could but Bisu just attacked randomly with only air units. Not saying he would have won but those reavers could have been really helpful in some of the fights.
To defend the main and nat in the earlier phase of the game when Carriers are not out yet, and the islands in the later phase. Isn't that obvious? The Reavers served their purpose. At that point in the game they're not that useful anymore. Visit the proleague thread and see the Mini vs Queen game on this map on 15 Oct to see the importance of the reavers during that phase. Since Protoss rushes for Carriers, Reavers are the only defence they have against Hydra bust.
Protoss players might be trying too hard to be perfectionists. Yes, zerg will dive at your army with mutalisks and try to hunt HTs. I said make archons and just weather zerg skirmishes until you can march on zerg creep, then your army will pay off. Nothing zerg has by this point can compare to zealots and archons. If zerg is smart it will stay behind with hydralisks waiting.
I'll take the bait and ask again, for the sake of clarity :
What exactly is the correct PvZ strategy to play in order to achieve victory, that you keep talking about? Can you clarify, i.e. do we fast expand, which units to make, when is the timing push?
Snow defiently didn't show his best form in the finals and soma looked like he was in beast mode so congrats to soma. I think next season we need to see more maps that aren't so zerg favored. See you guys next season.
On October 27 2025 13:01 SCRVN wrote: [quote] I don't think you are better than SnOw, why he didn't know what you know?
The weak point of Protoss can't cover all build order from Zerg. It's not SnOw's fault. soma lost all lings, still won; SnOw lost all zealots, lost; soma has no info, still won; SnOw has no info, lost.
Okay, you got me. I really believed you would have listened for once. I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Which brings me: you know, 1 stargate 1 corsair is the same amount of gas as a templar archive? I'm sure first corsair is as game breaking as having proper aoe.
Congratulations, you made a BUILDING and mutas are now flying into your base and you have no stargate to make corsairs. Or even if you made the templar, there's something called MICRO where the mutalisks move out from under storm even if you hit it right on them. But I suppose hoping for your Zerg opponent to momentarily lose all motor functions or have their mouse disconnect is about the best strategy for Protoss to reliably beat Zerg these days.
Idk, call all the pro Protoss players stupid, but maybe... just maybe, that corsair and stargate are useful for something.
I meant the archon.
Yes, the historically stupid, fat ass Archon that, while having the same range as a muta, can get outmicroed by a muta which can just fly around your base killing all your shit while the archon squirms around in in your buildings yearning to hit the mutas.
It's ok to just say you don't play the game mate and that you're just an armchair theorycrafter. Just don't pretend like your strategic insight holds any weight.
That last paragraph is straight what I'm going up against. Last season, people called me wrong that hallucinations would never work. Yet, this season Snow did make hallucinated shuttles in Roaring Currents. He also made archons, but I brought up hallucinations because it was totally outside the playbook for armchair knowitalls. It's not that I don't believe this is possible, it is because you don't believe it possible. When you make an assumption to the contrary of what pros believe to be true, you are the naysayer. Just stick to wins, not people like yourselves opinions and leave me out of it. None of you will be able to silence me until protoss starts winning and you better get used to playing the right way instead of advocating the wrong way.
Using a lost game where the hallucinations did practically nothing is a great way to make your point. But please, by all means, keep going.
Lost game, on "grand finals" played by none other than everyone's favourite protoss loser. I can't believe you were cheering for a faker who held back since the first game, if you really believe that. It must be really bleak to hold snow to such a standard that his disappointment of his fans means only he didn't really play up to his usual self. This is a very single minded stubborn attitude. Look I'm not the one arguing protoss players should copy games Bisu invented in 2006 and hoping to win at 2025 riding on bisu's royal road. You have to be crazy to think builds Bisu invented, like FE, can be surpasses by copycats in retrospect. It just doesn't happen. You have to surprise your opponent. Soma wasn't surprised even to think mutalisks were necessary. If you want to win, you have to break out of the mold. I congratulate snow did this, just as I congratulate larva. If you break out of the mold you-so-successfully cast yourself into by cannonising bisu builds into the standard and only successful way of playing pvz; "You will have nothing and you will be happy." It is time we look to the future, not the past. PS: what I mean:+ Show Spoiler +
On October 15 2025 09:49 so0willprevail wrote: Too bad Bisu didn’t get Maelsteom vs Zerg mass air. Really think he would’ve won game 5
Getting Maelstrom would have required: Citadel of Adun - 150/100 - 38 seconds Templar Archives - 150/200 - 38 seconds Malestrom - 100/100 - 63 seconds 2 Dark Templar - 250/200
650 / 600 and 2:19.
I'm pretty sure there aren't 650 / 600 from Bisu's build that could be cut (Disruption Web is 200/200) to have it in time for the first major air battle which is when he lost the game, so realistically, getting a Dark Archon pushes the attack later which I'm not sure helps the Protoss player unless they get a magical hit.
I'm pretty sure if soma saw a Dark Archon, he just takes his air fleet and systematically destroys all of the island bases and never gives Bisu the fight he's looking for.
You give the island maps to zerg. You don't make air. Stop playing pvz like it is zvz. You don't have to have air in order to bust zerg.
On October 17 2025 16:15 Dante08 wrote: Bisu choked so hard on Roaring Currents, wtf was he doing man. He had 2 reavers sitting in his base the whole game when Soma took the expansions outside his base.
This is a bad read. Those 2 Reavers are all the ground army he had lol. You can use 2 Reavers to grab some Drones and run, you can't use them to fight mass Hydra. Plus, they're there to defend potential doom drop.
Watch more games on this map and you'll realise when P go full skytoss on this map, they have to give up all the land for Z. You can't have enough to control both air AND land. Ideally it'll be 5 base P (3 bottom islands) vs 7 base Z (1 top island) and you fight until one side runs out of steam.
Then why build the reavers? He could have at least used them to harass or join the main fight. Soma brought his hydras to fight whenever he could but Bisu just attacked randomly with only air units. Not saying he would have won but those reavers could have been really helpful in some of the fights.
To defend the main and nat in the earlier phase of the game when Carriers are not out yet, and the islands in the later phase. Isn't that obvious? The Reavers served their purpose. At that point in the game they're not that useful anymore. Visit the proleague thread and see the Mini vs Queen game on this map on 15 Oct to see the importance of the reavers during that phase. Since Protoss rushes for Carriers, Reavers are the only defence they have against Hydra bust.
Protoss players might be trying too hard to be perfectionists. Yes, zerg will dive at your army with mutalisks and try to hunt HTs. I said make archons and just weather zerg skirmishes until you can march on zerg creep, then your army will pay off. Nothing zerg has by this point can compare to zealots and archons. If zerg is smart it will stay behind with hydralisks waiting.
I'll take the bait and ask again, for the sake of clarity :
What exactly is the correct PvZ strategy to play in order to achieve victory, that you keep talking about? Can you clarify, i.e. do we fast expand, which units to make, when is the timing push?
Good night, sweet thread.
Don't worry, I won't respond since he didn't read the spoiler.
EPT
