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Recommended Games+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [Game 1] +Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 1?Yes (18) 53% No (12) 35% If you have time (4) 12% 34 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 1? (Vote): Yes
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Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 7?If you have time (11) 50% No (6) 27% Yes (5) 23% 22 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 7? (Vote): Yes
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On October 27 2025 14:01 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2025 13:33 mtcn77 wrote:On October 27 2025 13:01 SCRVN wrote:On October 27 2025 10:48 mtcn77 wrote:On October 27 2025 09:40 SCRVN wrote:On October 27 2025 07:23 mtcn77 wrote:Do you want an honest answer? Because I'm going to give an honest answer if this isn't one of those echo chamber balance whines. Yes, I really would like to know + Show Spoiler +
1. map: zerg gets all 4 ground bases while protoss makes reaver, then ground army and gets the island. It should all be in reverse. Protoss should get all 4 ground bases and take out zerg's ground bases, not like moving out and retreating at the bridge like snow did.
2. map: FE build order auto defeat. You cannot win from this. Protoss and early map control are one and the same. Notice soma didn't even make mutas. Zerg has overlords, let them slowly crawl into your space. Do not give them map control like snow did AND 6 zealot 1 corsair gifts that do nothing in the early game. You know a random expo takes only 400 minerals? In a map like dominator, there is zero chance zerg can scout every main. Use your map control advantage. A random expo takes 75 seconds to make the nexus, 100.8 seconds 8 probes, 52 seconds thereafter to break even. Don't tell me you cannot hide a base for 52 seconds, once it has been operational.
3. map is a victory, so I'll pass.
4. map: again FE build order auto loss after giving full scout at 3 minutes while snow having zero scouting info at 3, or 8 minutes, apart from 6 minutes with a corsair. You cannot recover from giving full map control to zerg when you are cross spawn giving full flow of information in zerg control. Force zerg to make mutalisks, force them to make lurkers. Hit them with a bigger ground army. None were present in the game.
5. map: is again a victory, so I'll pass.
6. map: by this point soma is so much in control, he even stops FE making an early economy win for protoss by stopping early mining.
I don't think you are better than SnOw, why he didn't know what you know? The weak point of Protoss can't cover all build order from Zerg. It's not SnOw's fault. soma lost all lings, still won; SnOw lost all zealots, lost; soma has no info, still won; SnOw has no info, lost. Okay, you got me. I really believed you would have listened for once. I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Which brings me: you know, 1 stargate 1 corsair is the same amount of gas as a templar archive? I'm sure first corsair is as game breaking as having proper aoe. Congratulations, you made a BUILDING and mutas are now flying into your base and you have no stargate to make corsairs. Or even if you made the templar, there's something called MICRO where the mutalisks move out from under storm even if you hit it right on them. But I suppose hoping for your Zerg opponent to momentarily lose all motor functions or have their mouse disconnect is about the best strategy for Protoss to reliably beat Zerg these days. Idk, call all the pro Protoss players stupid, but maybe... just maybe, that corsair and stargate are useful for something.
I meant the archon.
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I am watching game 2, it's the most common situation in ZvP: Hydras/Ling + Overlord vs Corsair/DT vs Cannon/Probe. Why do Zerg usually win in this? even they can come back by mass drones.
I look at how fast Hydras/Lings are being bought, run and how slow DTs/Cannon are being bought, finish. It's so painful for Protoss.
Zerg is always active and Protoss is always passive. Zerg actively picks this build too, Protoss passively prays for not a Hydra bust too. It's a big difference between two race, and Zerg 99% gets ahead one or more steps on the opponents.
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It’ll be interesting to see if Soma’s hyper reactive and aggressive style catches on with other Zergs.
I dunno what meta shifts are available in PvZ though. I used to be a believer in Dark Archons and still think they have potential. But I reckon you need 2-3 of them to make them really effective and that’s a huge investment when you’ve gotta be teching to storm, obs goon range etc too. I don’t think DAs are necessarily a great counter to Soma’s style either. There weren’t many occasions yesterday you can point too where DAs would’ve solved the issue.
I think one of the big issues is that Zergs control all the information in the matchup due to speedlings and overlords (early game) and later with scourge and speed ovies. This is what leads to the guessing game for Ps.
Ps seem to have their best success when they can set the game flow early with zeal pressure or speed zeal timings. Mini and Bisu are really good at it whereas Best and Snow struggle a bit more.
I dunno. They do need to try something new though. The quick expand into Cair seems a bit stale and predictable.
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If they make a small change to roaring currents too so you can build more cannons on that middle island, I reckon that would solve some of the balance issues on the map too. It’s really hard to defend.
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^ You won't never see any game in Roaring Currents in your life, except you play it with Computer.
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On October 27 2025 14:40 RowdierBob wrote:
I think one of the big issues is that Zergs control all the information in the matchup due to speedlings and overlords (early game) and later with scourge and speed ovies. This is what leads to the guessing game for Ps.
So the way I've seen stronger Protosses deal with it is keeping the probe alive as long as possible and sending another one by clicking the mineral. If the choke is blocked by a million zerglings and you can't mineral walk through, send a lot of zealots before speed is done (in the base before 5 minutes). If the zerg can clean them up and still deny scouting by blocking the ramp, just add some cannons since the Zerg is so dedicated to making a ton of units to start.
Then your corsair goes in the hydra path to the Zerg base and checks initially, and you start +1 air. If you see spire make 6+ corsair and then clean up scouting overlords.
Hope that helps.
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On October 27 2025 08:28 RowdierBob wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2025 07:27 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
JYJ and Royal winning ASL shows to you that luck is also so important for this kind of tournament lol. Jesus i havent seen JYJ in proleagues or anything really since he won the ASL. And Royal idk if it is the maps that just dont favour him no more or what but the guy is really mid these days. And i cant help but thinking how neither Soma or Snow sneak an ASL win those seasons is unreal.
Btw After 4 seasons of SK domination i can see the fatigue of zerg winning. I still advocate for standard maps and not make it harder for zerg cuz ladder is hell already lol. Royal played zero protosses; JYJ played just one (2 games against Stork in the ro24, he went 1-1). Both had an insane level of bracket luck to win. If Snow only had to play PvP and PvT he’d prob have at least ASLs. Best probably would’ve snagged one too. Bisu not so sure. His PvT can be a bit shaky.
JyJ's Bracket luck is overstated. He was legitimately the best Terran for a very short period of time. He practiced the hardest and played the most out of all the terrans at that time and it paid off for him. After winning that ASL his activity plummeted to like 10% of what it used to be. He just regressed back to a worse form and never put in the time and effort since then to get his form back. And I dont think we will see Soulkey get his form back either. Soulkey shows no signs of wanting to get back to his prime and neither does JyJ.
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On October 27 2025 16:18 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2025 14:40 RowdierBob wrote:
I think one of the big issues is that Zergs control all the information in the matchup due to speedlings and overlords (early game) and later with scourge and speed ovies. This is what leads to the guessing game for Ps.
So the way I've seen stronger Protosses deal with it is keeping the probe alive as long as possible and sending another one by clicking the mineral. If the choke is blocked by a million zerglings and you can't mineral walk through, send a lot of zealots before speed is done (in the base before 5 minutes). If the zerg can clean them up and still deny scouting by blocking the ramp, just add some cannons since the Zerg is so dedicated to making a ton of units to start. Then your corsair goes in the hydra path to the Zerg base and checks initially, and you start +1 air. If you see spire make 6+ corsair and then clean up scouting overlords. Hope that helps.
This is not a solution. This is exactly how Protoss dies to Hydra bust lol. First of all you don't have "a lot" of Zealots before 5 mins. You have "a few". So the move out has to be worth it. If your Zealots die to Lings, you have nothing to block the Hydras from jumping on your Cannons 1 minute later, which was exactly what happened to Snow on Dominator and Polestar.
The only reliable way to fix Hydra bust is to increase the upgrade time for Hydra range or decrease the building time for Cannon. The latter is in the same principle with TvZ: Zerg doesn't know if Terran will go for a MM bust until they move out, but a Sunken finishing in 24s instead of 32s for Cannons help massively.
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Netherlands5176 Posts
Decreasing Cannon build time is not an option because it would change cannon rush a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if sunkens build quicker to combat cannon rush, or if it's just another happy little accident that BW was blessed with.
Bringing back Bo5 instead of Bo7 (why do we even have Bo7 before the finals lol?) would be the best way to make imba match ups a bit more "fair".
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On October 27 2025 20:23 Peeano wrote:
Decreasing Cannon build time is not an option because it would change cannon rush a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if sunkens build quicker to combat cannon rush, or if it's just another happy little accident that BW was blessed with.
Bringing back Bo5 instead of Bo7 (why do we even have Bo7 before the finals lol?) would be the best way to make imba match ups a bit more "fair".
no. They have to stick to bo7s. The issue lies in wacky maps. And SnOw also just made mistakes. His mistakes dont make zerg overpowered. It was just Soma and Soma alone who broke through a zerg this season. No others zergs did well, beside Larva. Past seasons it was JUST Soulkeu doing well.
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The finals record poster earlier in this thread in ZvP tells you everything you need to know about the state of the game. It's not completely impossible for P to win but since this has been a topic of discussion for decades now I think it would be nice for Blizzard to actually make a change for this specific match-up. Obviously the game is balanced enough in other aspects but there are ways to alleviate some of this non-sense we are subjected to each ASL.
This can be solved with just maps imo, by just making mappool strictly optimized for PvZ. However that's such a delicate task that it would most likely root out even more discourse and arguing.
Best solution is this:
- make cannon build time lower
This would have the most immediate effect on eliminating a lot of the early shenanigans WITHOUT disrupting other match-ups and other aspects of PvZ itself.
Any other change would have too many implications throught the match-ups and different map layouts. Mid to late game PvZ is actually quite well balanced even FS-inspired Terran favored maps thus allowing that ASL mapmaker to continue his life-long obsession.
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each time a zerg win we get the same bs of always.
Look at the last 10 ASLs I cant help but think is really hard to get something as balanced as this.
4 zvp finals
1 zvz final funny enough Hero and SK were the only zerg players to make it to the round of 8
1 zvt final
2 pvt final
2 tvt finals
appearance in finals
Terran : 5
zerg finals : 6
protoss: 6
I think if anything Terran is the one affected the most.
And im sorry but When you are basically playing a final and the score gets to 3-3 game 7 is pretty much like in football going to penalties. Anything can happen really.
I was checking season 15 bracket then i saw Mind freaking beat Best in his best matchup. So no only Snow and Soma were missing a huge opportunity to win ASL but Best also blunder super hard vs Mind. And lets no forget Best could have been the Champion over Sk aswell. SO many games he just did w.e.
And i know people call bs when i say this but brother the freaking maps has never been this good for protoss. Anyone that play this game knows this shit.
You know whats actually funny ? Death Valley was actually good for protoss. But i imagine since most of the players didnt want to practise that shit You will see the protoss doing 2 gateways to get over it..
And btw the strange part from Terran no doing well in ASL is actually interesting cuz in proleague they doing fairly well. Im not sure if it is About those players no performing offline. I coulnt believe my eyes when i Saw how bad Light was doing vs Larva. You will see online how every terran basically farm ballons vs him.
Anyway the reality is that we are minority here on TL. Is no like mapmakers will take our feedback or anything lol. I mean i have to be honest that i expected the Island map to be really punishing for zerg this season. Specially with the low minerals mechanics. I wonder if the map make it to the next season to explore even more mineral/gaz reduction to bring different playstyles.
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Building and unit build time generally is line with their mineral cost. Defensive structures though are the main exception to those, clearly tweaked around.
Sunkens build faster because the drone cost is covered upfront both in mineral and time. (And also the creep colony portion is 1.5x faster than the mineral cost would imply).
Bunkers are same as shield battery, they builds as if they costed 75 minerals.
Sunkens - including drone cost - build as if they cost 150 and not 175.
Cannons build as if they cost 125.
So it is pretty fair across the board, just the drone cost is baked in for the sunkens.
What makes hydra / muta deadly is the fact that you can save up to 3 larva.
I remember Bonyth mentioning that it'd be nice to be able to see what is hatching in eggs, and that seems like the most elegant solution to me, if we did have to have a patch.
But nah, not happening.
It's not that hard to make a decent map for P.
10 mineral patch mains and open ground 3rd/4th with easy wall on natural, please, ideally on a 2player map.
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On October 27 2025 21:12 oxKnu wrote:
The finals record poster earlier in this thread in ZvP tells you everything you need to know about the state of the game. It's not completely impossible for P to win but since this has been a topic of discussion for decades now I think it would be nice for Blizzard to actually make a change for this specific match-up. Obviously the game is balanced enough in other aspects but there are ways to alleviate some of this non-sense we are subjected to each ASL.
This can be solved with just maps imo, by just making mappool strictly optimized for PvZ. However that's such a delicate task that it would most likely root out even more discourse and arguing.
Best solution is this:
- make cannon build time lower
This would have the most immediate effect on eliminating a lot of the early shenanigans WITHOUT disrupting other match-ups and other aspects of PvZ itself.
Any other change would have too many implications throught the match-ups and different map layouts. Mid to late game PvZ is actually quite well balanced even FS-inspired Terran favored maps thus allowing that ASL mapmaker to continue his life-long obsession.
you can probably find 100s of threads on TL throughout the years of people suggesting balance changes for PvZ. But it's not ever going to happen. More realistically maps can change to help out the match-up though. Seems like Knockout was pretty successful balance-wise, would love to see the natural trenches implemented in other maps.
speaking of maps: I think I'm ready to put Radeon out to pasture. It was a solid map for a while but I think the meta is pretty stale on it now. Same with Dominator.
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On October 27 2025 19:33 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2025 08:28 RowdierBob wrote:On October 27 2025 07:27 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
JYJ and Royal winning ASL shows to you that luck is also so important for this kind of tournament lol. Jesus i havent seen JYJ in proleagues or anything really since he won the ASL. And Royal idk if it is the maps that just dont favour him no more or what but the guy is really mid these days. And i cant help but thinking how neither Soma or Snow sneak an ASL win those seasons is unreal.
Btw After 4 seasons of SK domination i can see the fatigue of zerg winning. I still advocate for standard maps and not make it harder for zerg cuz ladder is hell already lol. Royal played zero protosses; JYJ played just one (2 games against Stork in the ro24, he went 1-1). Both had an insane level of bracket luck to win. If Snow only had to play PvP and PvT he’d prob have at least ASLs. Best probably would’ve snagged one too. Bisu not so sure. His PvT can be a bit shaky. JyJ's Bracket luck is overstated. He was legitimately the best Terran for a very short period of time. He practiced the hardest and played the most out of all the terrans at that time and it paid off for him. After winning that ASL his activity plummeted to like 10% of what it used to be. He just regressed back to a worse form and never put in the time and effort since then to get his form back. And I dont think we will see Soulkey get his form back either. Soulkey shows no signs of wanting to get back to his prime and neither does JyJ.
Well SK already won 4 ASLs. Cant blame him. He has 5 championships total post Kespa. And i imagine he doesnt really the money anymore ? LOL so maybe he can relax for a bit atleast. Also take in mind ASL just finished. New maps are yet to come. So all in all the only thing he can do right now is to do the university girls thing. And if league of legends is making him happy and it is working for his stream then that is really good for him. If FlaSh happen to to play the next ASL things will get very interesting. a clash of Soma vs FlaSh or FlaSh vs Snow will be peak for sure.
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On October 27 2025 21:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:each time a zerg win we get the same bs of always. Look at the last 10 ASLs I cant help but think is really hard to get something as balanced as this. 4 zvp finals 1 zvz final funny enough Hero and SK were the only zerg players to make it to the round of 8 1 zvt final 2 pvt final 2 tvt finals appearance in finals Terran : 5 zerg finals : 6 protoss: 6 I think if anything Terran is the one affected the most. And im sorry but When you are basically playing a final and the score gets to 3-3 game 7 is pretty much like in football going to penalties. Anything can happen really. I was checking season 15 bracket then i saw Mind freaking beat Best in his best matchup. So no only Snow and Soma were missing a huge opportunity to win ASL but Best also blunder super hard vs Mind. And lets no forget Best could have been the Champion over Sk aswell. SO many games he just did w.e. And i know people call bs when i say this but brother the freaking maps has never been this good for protoss. Anyone that play this game knows this shit. You know whats actually funny ? Death Valley was actually good for protoss. But i imagine since most of the players didnt want to practise that shit You will see the protoss doing 2 gateways to get over it.. And btw the strange part from Terran no doing well in ASL is actually interesting cuz in proleague they doing fairly well. Im not sure if it is About those players no performing offline. I coulnt believe my eyes when i Saw how bad Light was doing vs Larva. You will see online how every terran basically farm ballons vs him. Anyway the reality is that we are minority here on TL. Is no like mapmakers will take our feedback or anything lol. I mean i have to be honest that i expected the Island map to be really punishing for zerg this season. Specially with the low minerals mechanics. I wonder if the map make it to the next season to explore even more mineral/gaz reduction to bring different playstyles.
It's 7 7 6 for final appearances (you know it should add up to 20 right?) but it's just minor correction anyway. If you go back more to the entire 20 seasons, it becomes 16 13 11, a bit more lopsided although I guess you can argue the effect of Flash. But it's still inconsequential.
The point is you can't base your entire argument on a "what if" like that. What if Best beat Mind? He would have gone on and won that ASL instead of JYJ? Probably. But you can also say what if Soma didn't lose to fucking Ample in that same tournament so he could have gone deeper and eaten Best alive. What if Mini's 12 Nexus got scouted first by Rush or 9 Pool'd by Queen? Protoss wouldn't have had their 3rd ASL either. What if Snow didn't narrowly beat Flash in ASL5 so Rain couldn't have won his ASL?
A lot of "what ifs" over the course of 20 seasons. Upsets occur for all 3 races here and there. You can't use what if for a single race and leave out the others like that and say "look, in this hypothetical situation it's all balanced".
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It was more an approach to the maps that have been used recently and the shifting in format. And i think i said the same about Soma and Snow. But then realized Best proly also had the biggest opportunity with his best matchup but also didnt close it. I was always frustrated how Soma didnt manage to win an ASL and then do you have ROyal and JYJ doing it before him lol. And i remember when everyone thought that Snow will finally win the ASL when FlaSh went to the military and that moment has still to happen.
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snow makes pvt look imba
so he has to lose pvz
that is balanced!
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On October 27 2025 09:18 Brett wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2025 01:46 G5 wrote:
Also, I agree with Bonyth when he says he doesn't understand how Protoss can underperform (specifically vs Zerg) throughout the history of a 25+ year old game and people still say it's a player skill reason as to why they're failing vs Zerg. Like all Protoss players are just morons and bad players and can't figure shit out.
Map makers have honestly never made life easier for Protoss players against Zergs, with wallable naturals on basically every map etc. and Protoss players still by in large fail.
Updated since my ASL 17 post: In the history of BW starleagues (MSL, OSL, ASL), protoss has won 17 finals, terran 34, and zerg 30 (including ASL 20). If you look at results from just the past 20 years, protoss has won 10 (3 in ASL), terran 26 (8 in ASL) and zerg 30 (9 in ASL) ZvP finals results: 12:2 The two protoss finals wins vs zerg were in 2000 (Garimto beat Skelton) and 2006/7 (Bisu beat Savior). LOL
Yeah.. Numbers don't lie. This is just sad.
-.-
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The way you Nerf hydra busts without buffing a cannon rush is to change the size of protoss buildings while warping in so they receive less damage from explosive units. This way, things like lings, zealots and marines still do the same amount of damage while a cannon is warping in.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Ts4I4oD.png)
