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Recommended Games+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [Game 1] +Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 1?Yes (18) 53% No (12) 35% If you have time (4) 12% 34 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 1? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 2?No (16) 76% Yes (4) 19% If you have time (1) 5% 21 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 2? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 3?Yes (19) 83% If you have time (3) 13% No (1) 4% 23 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 3? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 4?No (15) 79% Yes (4) 21% If you have time (0) 0% 19 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 4? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 5?Yes (15) 71% If you have time (4) 19% No (2) 10% 21 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 5? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 6?Yes (11) 46% No (9) 38% If you have time (4) 17% 24 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 6? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 7?If you have time (11) 50% No (6) 27% Yes (5) 23% 22 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 7? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
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On October 26 2025 19:07 thezanursic wrote:
How can Snow be so good at PvT and PvP and suck so bad at PvZ.
Bisu gave Soma a good run for his money. Snow is not.
People are biased. Last season they called snow's game with SK at Ro4 true finals, this season they got their finals wish and it still didn't deliver on their promises.
Mind blown: bisu's game at Ro4 was BETTER than last season's Ro4 game. Change my mind. We had many celebrated players elevate this ASL season that did not make it into the finals. I stand by my conviction they deserved it more to be here.
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On October 26 2025 19:09 Peeano wrote:
Killing gateway, probes of minerals long enough. Then too many sairs (or not enough to force effectively psi block). Snow's simcity kinda sucked.
Seems unfair with how much Zerg can get away with. Makes me curious to hear Bisu's take on this game.
It is stupid to see protoss players choke their natural. I mean it is not like zerg needs more mobility, but you do!
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Soma displaying quintessential Zerg play here. Absolute hyperaggression and no fear. Insane.
He macros like no other, doesn't give a fuck about losing units for his set priorities and just sweeps house. What a monster.
As long as Protoss can't find an answer to his hydra/muta tech bamboozling, he'll just keep doing it. Your move Protoss.
Only thing I'm a little sour on is that we see less unit variation, but that's all.
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On October 26 2025 19:13 TMNT wrote:Some of the comments here, I swear they don't understand the matchup very well. Like this: Show nested quote +Snow had full map control/vision with his corsairs, and he still botched that game. So disappointing. Notice he killed 2 Overlords (which is 1 more than normally allowed) then had to pull back as Scourges started coming out, and some Corsairs nearly died if not for slick control. From that point as Protoss you have to keep your Sairs back until you accumulate enough of them to fight a potential Orge Zerg gamer. If you move out too early, you'll be called stupid. You talk about "full map control" as if Protoss has map hack. The correct play there? When Zerg decides to do that strategy of "guess which way I'm gonna all in you", the only way is to build Cannons in BOTH nat and main to account for both situations. But Zerg has a 3rd option: I'm just gonna Drone up and leave you behind economically. Like I said, as P you have to guess. Sometimes it pays off sometimes it doesn't.
It is hilarious to watch you act out normal while still not knowing how to play.
The wall in puts you at a disadvantage. The only way it can work is if both you and your enemy are at equal ground. If you wall yourself in, you give 3 quarters of the attack surface to your enemy. Only if you have a second outside perimeter army can you engage an oncoming hydrabust. You can never collect enough attack surface holding one side of the choke West vs. North+East+South. Even if you had reavers, zerg would still have enough mobility to move in. Only if you had a sizable zealot force outside the choke that had a deterrant effect on the zerg to not engage the outside army did you have a chance to come in from the South, or the East.
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On October 27 2025 04:54 RowdierBob wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2025 03:14 BisuDagger wrote:
The good I get from this finals is that Bisu was really the second best player in this tournament. I haven’t felt this positive about his performance since proleague. Hopefully he can take the crown back from Zerg next season. Snow would've wrecked Bisu PvP. I think the issue with the top four Ps (Bisu, Mini, Snow, Best) is all of them have a pretty weak MU that stops them going all the way.
Disagree there. Sure, because of his reaver micro Snow will always be the favorite but Bisu knows a lot of tricks and actually has a killer instinct in that match-up.
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On October 26 2025 19:43 BLinD-RawR wrote:
oh snow didn't do the crazy thing and try to just push with the zealots anyway.
That would be a move out of Best's playbook.
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On October 27 2025 05:51 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2025 19:05 oxKnu wrote:
Ok, that was a poor loss. Just out of position the whole time. Missed rally points. Zealots getting stuck on map artifacts, awful wall design etc etc
Cross position and you choose to go early DT? Please.
Snow doesn't have it. Soma has played pretty impeccable so far with just the one mistake in the previous game. I think it should be clear walls don't work like protoss players aim to. They are walling themselves in, instead of walling zerg out. Walls should only work if your army is outside and zerg would try to do a backstab and you swoop in with your army and do a backstab yourself. Practically setting up a trap for zerg to walk into. As it stands, neither your units can go out so fast for an ambush, nor can your army spread to take away the brunt of the attack. Static defences are static. You need more mobility to amplify your frontline unit cycling.
Ok, I have to ask.
What the fuck is this? Is this AI-generated? This doesn't make any kind of sense.
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On October 27 2025 06:31 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2025 05:51 mtcn77 wrote:On October 26 2025 19:05 oxKnu wrote:
Ok, that was a poor loss. Just out of position the whole time. Missed rally points. Zealots getting stuck on map artifacts, awful wall design etc etc
Cross position and you choose to go early DT? Please.
Snow doesn't have it. Soma has played pretty impeccable so far with just the one mistake in the previous game. I think it should be clear walls don't work like protoss players aim to. They are walling themselves in, instead of walling zerg out. Walls should only work if your army is outside and zerg would try to do a backstab and you swoop in with your army and do a backstab yourself. Practically setting up a trap for zerg to walk into. As it stands, neither your units can go out so fast for an ambush, nor can your army spread to take away the brunt of the attack. Static defences are static. You need more mobility to amplify your frontline unit cycling. Ok, I have to ask. What the fuck is this? Is this AI-generated? This doesn't make any kind of sense.
What is not making any sense is Snow making blind FE wall-in counters like it is some genius strategy and losing regardless. I'm just trying to explain to noobs how similar this is to julyzerg vs the Rock. Don't tell me that game is AI generated, too. That game coined the term sauron zerg.
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On October 26 2025 20:02 Marl wrote:
bisu vs soma was the real finals sadly. fuck that island map.
Don't blame the map. It is prototypical Snow fashion - who picks that map if you'll lose. Only Snow... I had been vocal that map should be the decider.
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On October 26 2025 20:04 Soulforged wrote:
There was one tactic that Bisu pulled out in his series vs Soma, that I've previously considered and I could see making a small difference in the matchup, at least in the spots that were relevant today.
The 1 sair scout after scourge are out, but before the sairs reach critical mass to roam safely.
Relying on zealots or a DT to scout at the same time...can work, but significantly lower success chance.
Now imagine: no corsairs. Mind blown! Protoss players should reconsider what they think they know for certain. Corsairs are a waste of early game opportunity. Make gateway units like players did 20 years ago. They falsely believe they are so innovative playing corsair openers when it was a bisu first and they are only being complacent. Bisu opens with corsairs just as many games as he does zealot rushes. Best does more zealot rushes. Mini does even more zealot rushes. If you want antiair you have archons.
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On October 27 2025 06:31 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2025 05:51 mtcn77 wrote:On October 26 2025 19:05 oxKnu wrote:
Ok, that was a poor loss. Just out of position the whole time. Missed rally points. Zealots getting stuck on map artifacts, awful wall design etc etc
Cross position and you choose to go early DT? Please.
Snow doesn't have it. Soma has played pretty impeccable so far with just the one mistake in the previous game. I think it should be clear walls don't work like protoss players aim to. They are walling themselves in, instead of walling zerg out. Walls should only work if your army is outside and zerg would try to do a backstab and you swoop in with your army and do a backstab yourself. Practically setting up a trap for zerg to walk into. As it stands, neither your units can go out so fast for an ambush, nor can your army spread to take away the brunt of the attack. Static defences are static. You need more mobility to amplify your frontline unit cycling. Ok, I have to ask. What the fuck is this? Is this AI-generated? This doesn't make any kind of sense. No there are actually some people on here who think they know better then the entire Protoss pro-scene.
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On October 26 2025 20:06 Rainalcar wrote:
Bisu won that one game after a crazy Soma throw. That's the only reason it went to g7. ZvP is imbalanced. There are so many Zs with dominant win rates. P reaching even 55% is miraculous.
User was temp banned for this post.
Mods: can I have a wish? I want to hear his side of the story. You didn't temp ban TMNT for stating the same "crazy throw" delusion at Motive vs Queen thread. I think this dude deserves the same treatment.
It might be obvious to us after the fact that Bisu stood firm 3-4 vs 2-4 better than his hero. I just want to put some sense into him by talking it through. I think we have to narrate this ongoing protoss delusion. They don't know who their real heroes are.
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On October 27 2025 06:55 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2025 06:31 oxKnu wrote:On October 27 2025 05:51 mtcn77 wrote:On October 26 2025 19:05 oxKnu wrote:
Ok, that was a poor loss. Just out of position the whole time. Missed rally points. Zealots getting stuck on map artifacts, awful wall design etc etc
Cross position and you choose to go early DT? Please.
Snow doesn't have it. Soma has played pretty impeccable so far with just the one mistake in the previous game. I think it should be clear walls don't work like protoss players aim to. They are walling themselves in, instead of walling zerg out. Walls should only work if your army is outside and zerg would try to do a backstab and you swoop in with your army and do a backstab yourself. Practically setting up a trap for zerg to walk into. As it stands, neither your units can go out so fast for an ambush, nor can your army spread to take away the brunt of the attack. Static defences are static. You need more mobility to amplify your frontline unit cycling. Ok, I have to ask. What the fuck is this? Is this AI-generated? This doesn't make any kind of sense. No there are actually some people on here who think they know better then the entire Protoss pro-scene.
Who were those who assumed a legend of the fall victory? I'm not assuming to know better than your pro-scene. It is a well established fact at this point. Stop making excuses.
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Thinking about the series. We didnt see a single defiler the whole series. Game 1 we saw Guardians from Soma.proly the only hive tech that was used the whole series. Im not even sure he did adrenaline.
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On October 27 2025 07:01 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Thinking about the series. We didnt see a single defiler the whole series. Game 1 we saw Guardians from Soma.proly the only hive tech that was used the whole series. Im not even sure he did adrenaline.
Also, at the time people were saying defilers beat queens everytime... we didn't see queens too, but larva wasn't playing today. It is ironic zerg has so much to give, but protoss are at a standstill. They need to reinvent themselves, hopefully next season.
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protoss lost to a zerg on a finals?
absolutly shocking, nobody saw that coming...
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On October 26 2025 20:55 RowdierBob wrote:
Still can’t believe JYJ and Royal have fluked into winning ASLs by getting charmed brackets that didn’t have any protosses and Snow for all his brilliance in PvT and PvP can’t get over the S-tier Zerg hump.
As long as he keeps running into the Soukeys/Heros/Somas etc I’m not sure he can win one.
Both won against Soulkey. Don't forget that.
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On October 26 2025 22:07 SCRVN wrote:
Actually, I am so sad when I am about to say the truth, the series should be SnOw 6:0 soma today, people've watched this one, they would agree with me.
Game 1: SnOw had advantage 99% time of game (he used the strategy that I thinked it's good for him. It's mass ground units), soma throw some times, but still won.
Game 2: soma has just killed all zealots then mass Hydras. SnOw has no info anymore, guess wrong, gg.
Game 3: SnOw outplayed so much soma by micro, macro, timing attack.
Game 4: soma "all in" with 100000 lings but just destroyed only a gate. And then, he built a Spire, spent some redundant money by Scourge, mass Hydras like game 2.
Game 5: SnOw played like game 1, it's just a real win.
Game 6: soma spamed Hatchery and prevented SnOw did the same. It's fair if Hatchery's cost 400 or Nexus's cost 300, you know?
I didn't see any Soma's skills better than SnOw, except how he picked his race.
Do you want an honest answer? Because I'm going to give an honest answer if this isn't one of those echo chamber balance whines.
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JYJ and Royal winning ASL shows to you that luck is also so important for this kind of tournament lol. Jesus i havent seen JYJ in proleagues or anything really since he won the ASL. And Royal idk if it is the maps that just dont favour him no more or what but the guy is really mid these days. And i cant help but thinking how neither Soma or Snow sneak an ASL win those seasons is unreal.
Btw After 4 seasons of SK domination i can see the fatigue of zerg winning. I still advocate for standard maps and not make it harder for zerg cuz ladder is hell already lol.
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IMO, PvZ, for a very long time now, has been a multitasking fight.
As a Protoss, if you're fast enough relative to your opponent, you will have scouting information.
If you aren't, you have to resort to stuff like:
- BO opener advantage allowing you to cover everything
- trickery to get your scouting, like hiding or sneaking a probe/zealot
- to mind games/knowing your opponent/blind guesses
All of the above on a given day may or may not work well.
I'd even say that because of this factor, a player like Snow may be a much better and stable bet against an average zerg pro, than someone like Mini...but if I had to pick between the two of them someone to take out the actual top zerg in a series, I'd go with Mini.
And of course Bisu's PvZ is on another level unless the others are in their peak peak form.
I think it is telling that against Bisu, Soma had to resort to 2 base all-ins a lot, where Z actually can deny scouting, but the gamble has much less of a transition. That wasn't necessary against Snow.
Peak Snow a while back was fun to watch because he'd literally kill mutas with predictive storms, no corsairs necessary. But he's not peaking now and it is hard to bring out that type of insane form in an offline setting, anyway. He's much better at home.
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EPT
