|
Recommended Games+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [Game 1] +Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 1?Yes (21) 55% No (12) 32% If you have time (5) 13% 38 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 1? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 2?No (18) 72% Yes (6) 24% If you have time (1) 4% 25 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 2? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 3?Yes (21) 81% If you have time (3) 12% No (2) 8% 26 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 3? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 4?No (16) 76% Yes (5) 24% If you have time (0) 0% 21 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 4? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 5?Yes (16) 70% If you have time (4) 17% No (3) 13% 23 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 5? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 6?Yes (13) 50% No (9) 35% If you have time (4) 15% 26 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 6? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 7?If you have time (12) 52% No (6) 26% Yes (5) 22% 23 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 7? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
|
On October 26 2025 20:15 Bonyth wrote:
20+ years of protoss underperforming. Yet people still claim protoss was the weaker player.
Also people on TL saying that Snow was at fault for not scouting zerg when he had spire and didn't have 5 corsairs: i hope u are at least aware of the implications, as you are risking life of 1 corsair to get additional info on zerg. U'd think it's just 1 corsair, but i assure u it's a very important corsair.
Cmon, even Snow would be disappointed in his performance today. The Snow of 2-3 seasons ago had stronger PvZ than this. This illusion that he played well today is a bit crazy imo.
|
i have been watching Soma this week in proleagues and the guy just look ahead of everyone. Is actually incredible how dominant he is in proleague. Is proly the first time we do have a guy so dominant in proleague and then also the ASL winner ( Apart from FlaSh ofc ) For example Sk won 4 ASls in a row but in proleagues he was never dominant as Soma is. I mean for a long time he has been the zerg. Even the ASL final vs Queen im pretty sure if the last game wasnt replayed he could have won the ASL that day. But destiny played his role.
|
It's ok Snow, I didn't want to win Liquibets anyway.
|
On October 26 2025 23:34 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2025 22:02 TMNT wrote:On October 26 2025 20:10 oxKnu wrote:
The real winners on ASL finals day are the fans because we also get a fat online ProLeague series with all the names.
P.S: The people saying Soma is just beneficial of the match-up for this title are delusional. He clearly showed you that he is superior to his opponent in the finals. It's not "just", obviously, otherwise BTS could also ZvP his way to ASL champion too. But you don't think having the ability to kill your opponent when they have no reliable way to scout your killing move is not a massive advantage? Today, the first game is a map win for Soma, the Dominator and Polestar games are matchup advantage-based wins, only the Knockout game is a fair and square win for him. On Snow's side, the Radeon game is a fair win, and the Metropolis one is a bit of a BO advantage win for him. How can you claim Soma is a superior player when Snow is a superior player to the best Terrans, who in turn are superior to Soma himself. It's almost there's a second, determining factor that decides that merry go round I think you are bit blinded by fandom here. Soma can only play against what he is given and I assure you he will most likely be competitive in any match-up to a level higher that what Snow showed today, if you want to play that comparison game.
You can assure me but facts don't agree with that statement.
He's 61% against Protoss but 51% against Terran this year. He's negative vs Flash (45%) and Light (46%), while at exactly 50% vs Rush and Royal. Compare that to his record against Protoss: 53% vs Snow, 57% vs Bisu, 57% vs Mini, 78% vs Best. You can't look at that and tell me the matchup factor doesn't play a significant role.
But the more important point is: when you look at all 3 matchups, you can in no way see in the other two the same phenomenon you see in ZvP, in which one race is constantly busted by the other in a "Guess what I'm gonna do? Gotcha!" manner. And it has been going on for 20 years!
Win more games like the Knockout one today, or the BlitzY one between Soulkey vs Snow a couple of seasons ago, then Zerg can disregard the matchup advantage argument.
|
Very sad for Snow, it was his moment 🙁
|
On October 26 2025 23:36 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2025 23:22 Maks wrote:
To me, it’s not just that Zerg are clearly stronger than Protoss — all the non-standard maps from the last few seasons are Zerg-favored too. And it’s not just Protoss struggling; Terrans are feeling the pain as well. This has been discussed many times. The rumour is the guy that has the final say on the maps is a Terran that makes sure the maps are always "safe" of anything that might bother Terran in TvZ. So basically P is left to chance each time. Sometimes it's really bad. (remember Benzene?), sometimes it's random. (like this season).
the truth is that it's impossible to predict how maps will play out
we just don't know beforehand
even for maps that were specifically designed to help some race in a matchup, the outcome can't be determined
it's just not possible to have sufficient high level, high stakes games before the maps get used in leagues
there is no conspiracy
|
still, why are maps even a talking point after these finals?
you had a 39% WR snow in his worst matchup vs a 63% WR soma in his best matchup
the 4-2 result is as consistent as you could possibly get with these stats
|
It sucks that Snow once again misses he chance for gold, but soma played so damn well. So cool to see a non-kespa player win ASL.
|
On October 27 2025 00:59 Kraekkling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2025 23:36 oxKnu wrote:On October 26 2025 23:22 Maks wrote:
To me, it’s not just that Zerg are clearly stronger than Protoss — all the non-standard maps from the last few seasons are Zerg-favored too. And it’s not just Protoss struggling; Terrans are feeling the pain as well. This has been discussed many times. The rumour is the guy that has the final say on the maps is a Terran that makes sure the maps are always "safe" of anything that might bother Terran in TvZ. So basically P is left to chance each time. Sometimes it's really bad. (remember Benzene?), sometimes it's random. (like this season). the truth is that it's impossible to predict how maps will play out we just don't know beforehand even for maps that were specifically designed to help some race in a matchup, the outcome can't be determined it's just not possible to have sufficient high level, high stakes games before the maps get used in leagues there is no conspiracy
I didn't say there was a conspiracy, I said that there is a constant preference for a particular set of maps, for a particular race.
|
people still on the "snow is bad at pvZ" train are basing it 5 year old data. his online pvz score is second only to Bisu, and he only has a bad score vs specifically SoMa. SoMa is the anti-snow as much as Soulkey was before Soulkey's activity plummeted and so did his form. SnOw is also the least active he has ever been, whereas SoMa is much morr active. The writings were on the wall for anyone who tracks online activity and performance. SoMa is peaking. SnOw is still in good form but not close to peak. In the SnOw vs Barrracks videos translated by JinJin multiple pros talk about SnOw not being in peak form.
|
On October 26 2025 20:54 Peeano wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2025 20:20 Crimson)S(hadow wrote:
was that a kpop star in the black clothes after game 2? anyone know who it was? I wouldn't know, but if you care enough you can at least provide a screenshot or tinestamped link.
https://www.sooplive.com/video/174358?sec=6043
at 1:40:43
|
For the current map pool, overall there is a bias for Z>=P at sth like 53-47.
Interestingly, KnockOut is the only map where Protoss retains a positive win rate, data sample is small though.
Still, a very terran friendly map pool...
|
Honestly, watching this series just made me mad. Zerg just has so many advantages against Protoss. They can just all-in over and over. If one fails, follow it up with another all-in. It's so difficult as Protoss to scout / keep on top of it.
Even the forced follow-up makes me mad because even if a Protoss holds, the correct play is to just 2 base all-in after the hold. Everyone praises Bisu for playing so well in the last series and all he did was try not to die and 2 base all-in. That's the match up now a days and it's still just hard AF for Protoss to win.
Also, I agree with Bonyth when he says he doesn't understand how Protoss can underperform (specifically vs Zerg) throughout the history of a 25+ year old game and people still say it's a player skill reason as to why they're failing vs Zerg. Like all Protoss players are just morons and bad players and can't figure shit out.
Map makers have honestly never made life easier for Protoss players against Zergs, with wallable naturals on basically every map etc. and Protoss players still by in large fail.
TvP has a similar issue with Protoss but the MU design allows for Terrans to not die as much or fall drastically behind as much in the early game in TvP than P does against Z.
I dunno... This series just made me mad. I think Soma plays ZvP how it should be played and the reality of what it looks like just pisses me off lol.
Also, I get I may be banned for this (and w/e), but why are we temp banning people for balance whining? It's a gaming forum. Balance whining is such a huge part of a gaming forum. People expressing their views and frustrations with a match up seems natural on a gaming forum. It just seems so unhinged to ban someone over them expressing their views in good faith. I just think that's one of the dumbest takes a gaming forum administration could conjure up.
|
On October 27 2025 01:46 G5 wrote:
Honestly, watching this series just made me mad. Zerg just has so many advantages against Protoss. They can just all-in over and over. If one fails, follow it up with another all-in. It's so difficult as Protoss to scout / keep on top of it.
Even the forced follow-up makes me mad because even if a Protoss holds, the correct play is to just 2 base all-in after the hold. Everyone praises Bisu for playing so well in the last series and all he did was try not to die and 2 base all-in. That's the match up now a days and it's still just hard AF for Protoss to win.
Also, I agree with Bonyth when he says he doesn't understand how Protoss can underperform (specifically vs Zerg) throughout the history of a 25+ year old game and people still say it's a player skill reason as to why they're failing vs Zerg. Like all Protoss players are just morons and bad players and can't figure shit out.
Map makers have honestly never made life easier for Protoss players against Zergs, with wallable naturals on basically every map etc. and Protoss players still by in large fail.
TvP has a similar issue with Protoss but the MU design allows for Terrans to not die as much or fall drastically behind as much in the early game in TvP than P does against Z.
I dunno... This series just made me mad. I think Soma plays ZvP how it should be played and the reality of what it looks like just pisses me off lol.
Also, I get I may be banned for this (and w/e), but why are we temp banning people for balance whining? It's a gaming forum. Balance whining is such a huge part of a gaming forum. People expressing their views and frustrations with a match up seems natural on a gaming forum. It just seems so unhinged to ban someone over them expressing their views in good faith. I just think that's one of the dumbest takes a gaming forum administration could conjure up.
Hmmm... do you expect a patch? Do you expect the people in charge of making those decisions to make the correct ones, and to only change exactly what is needed and then leave the game alone?
It feels likely that either balance complaints ruin the game with shitty patches that turn it into a Frankenstein's monster, or they do nothing and undermine the achievement of the winning player.
Theoretically, better scouting for Protoss early on, or potentially slower hydra range (?) could be an interesting thought experiment. Hydras busting cannons over and over, even from a game health perspective, is far from ideal.
But I don't understand what people think is going to happen from endlessly arguing about it on a forum. And I'm not sure I'd agree that gaming forums are for balance arguments. It's like the worst aspect of these forums and always has been. Especially since 90% of people who contribute don't play the game.
Like I don't see any arguments stating that hydra and ling busts are fun to watch and necessarily make for ggs. But the reality of the next step is the difficult one. Do people really want to open pandora's box and patch the game, or is it just venting?
edit: idk why i suggested random dumb changes, totally the antithesis of my point lol
|
Balance whining and arguing about theorycrafting is like 80% of all posts in this forum lol
|
Better player has won.. So many people cannot get over it.
I find this absolutely stunning, finally a non professional player has won, end of an era and a new beginning.
It is interesting how zergs learned to use specific units over the years like queens, terrans learned to use valkyries, but protoss players are in most cases stubborn and simply wont use the dark archons for games and situations that are perfect for them (and would swing the victory).
|
> finally a non professional player has won
Lol, this is such a tired narrative.
|
On October 27 2025 01:39 Kraekkling wrote:For the current map pool, overall there is a bias for Z>=P at sth like 53-47. Interestingly, KnockOut is the only map where Protoss retains a positive win rate, data sample is small though. Still, a very terran friendly map pool...
Like I was saying, the current race balance will change whenever mapmakers go "Fuck Terran".
|
I don't think we've seen the potential of what maps can do for this game. I think tournament organizers need to embrace it. A couple years of having more interesting maps that maybe even target some balance or design problems could be really nice. We only really get 1 per season and before the bo7s roll around we don't really see it.
It'd be nice to blow the top off that shit and just let the map creativity flow.
|
Bisutopia19348 Posts
The good I get from this finals is that Bisu was really the second best player in this tournament. I haven’t felt this positive about his performance since proleague. Hopefully he can take the crown back from Zerg next season.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/Y48n0zhV/maps.png)
