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United States10227 Posts
On October 27 2025 14:21 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2025 14:01 FlaShFTW wrote:On October 27 2025 13:33 mtcn77 wrote:On October 27 2025 13:01 SCRVN wrote:On October 27 2025 10:48 mtcn77 wrote:On October 27 2025 09:40 SCRVN wrote:On October 27 2025 07:23 mtcn77 wrote:Do you want an honest answer? Because I'm going to give an honest answer if this isn't one of those echo chamber balance whines. Yes, I really would like to know + Show Spoiler +
1. map: zerg gets all 4 ground bases while protoss makes reaver, then ground army and gets the island. It should all be in reverse. Protoss should get all 4 ground bases and take out zerg's ground bases, not like moving out and retreating at the bridge like snow did.
2. map: FE build order auto defeat. You cannot win from this. Protoss and early map control are one and the same. Notice soma didn't even make mutas. Zerg has overlords, let them slowly crawl into your space. Do not give them map control like snow did AND 6 zealot 1 corsair gifts that do nothing in the early game. You know a random expo takes only 400 minerals? In a map like dominator, there is zero chance zerg can scout every main. Use your map control advantage. A random expo takes 75 seconds to make the nexus, 100.8 seconds 8 probes, 52 seconds thereafter to break even. Don't tell me you cannot hide a base for 52 seconds, once it has been operational.
3. map is a victory, so I'll pass.
4. map: again FE build order auto loss after giving full scout at 3 minutes while snow having zero scouting info at 3, or 8 minutes, apart from 6 minutes with a corsair. You cannot recover from giving full map control to zerg when you are cross spawn giving full flow of information in zerg control. Force zerg to make mutalisks, force them to make lurkers. Hit them with a bigger ground army. None were present in the game.
5. map: is again a victory, so I'll pass.
6. map: by this point soma is so much in control, he even stops FE making an early economy win for protoss by stopping early mining.
I don't think you are better than SnOw, why he didn't know what you know? The weak point of Protoss can't cover all build order from Zerg. It's not SnOw's fault. soma lost all lings, still won; SnOw lost all zealots, lost; soma has no info, still won; SnOw has no info, lost. Okay, you got me. I really believed you would have listened for once. I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Which brings me: you know, 1 stargate 1 corsair is the same amount of gas as a templar archive? I'm sure first corsair is as game breaking as having proper aoe. Congratulations, you made a BUILDING and mutas are now flying into your base and you have no stargate to make corsairs. Or even if you made the templar, there's something called MICRO where the mutalisks move out from under storm even if you hit it right on them. But I suppose hoping for your Zerg opponent to momentarily lose all motor functions or have their mouse disconnect is about the best strategy for Protoss to reliably beat Zerg these days. Idk, call all the pro Protoss players stupid, but maybe... just maybe, that corsair and stargate are useful for something. I meant the archon. 
Yes, the historically stupid, fat ass Archon that, while having the same range as a muta, can get outmicroed by a muta which can just fly around your base killing all your shit while the archon squirms around in in your buildings yearning to hit the mutas.
It's ok to just say you don't play the game mate and that you're just an armchair theorycrafter. Just don't pretend like your strategic insight holds any weight.
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On October 27 2025 23:45 M3t4PhYzX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2025 09:18 Brett wrote:On October 27 2025 01:46 G5 wrote:
Also, I agree with Bonyth when he says he doesn't understand how Protoss can underperform (specifically vs Zerg) throughout the history of a 25+ year old game and people still say it's a player skill reason as to why they're failing vs Zerg. Like all Protoss players are just morons and bad players and can't figure shit out.
Map makers have honestly never made life easier for Protoss players against Zergs, with wallable naturals on basically every map etc. and Protoss players still by in large fail.
Updated since my ASL 17 post: In the history of BW starleagues (MSL, OSL, ASL), protoss has won 17 finals, terran 34, and zerg 30 (including ASL 20). If you look at results from just the past 20 years, protoss has won 10 (3 in ASL), terran 26 (8 in ASL) and zerg 30 (9 in ASL) ZvP finals results: 12:2 The two protoss finals wins vs zerg were in 2000 (Garimto beat Skelton) and 2006/7 (Bisu beat Savior). LOL Yeah.. Numbers don't lie. This is just sad. -.-
Yeah, it sucks that protoss loses all the time and yeah, I am a big fan of Snow.
But what concerns me the most, is that it feels detrimental to Brood War as an esport.
I really hope this doesn't have a rippling effect in that new players simply opt out of playing the race so we just end up with terrans and zergs in the years to come.
I guess the only thing that can even it out is different maps. Mabye more maps with double gas in main or something.
This is the only game that's worth following and I love it so much that it hope things will even out.
And I love all you BW fans as well <3 Yeah we disagree a lot, but this community is the best there is :D
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United States10227 Posts
On October 27 2025 21:40 Soulforged wrote:
Building and unit build time generally is line with their mineral cost. Defensive structures though are the main exception to those, clearly tweaked around.
Sunkens build faster because the drone cost is covered upfront both in mineral and time. (And also the creep colony portion is 1.5x faster than the mineral cost would imply).
Bunkers are same as shield battery, they builds as if they costed 75 minerals.
Sunkens - including drone cost - build as if they cost 150 and not 175.
Cannons build as if they cost 125.
So it is pretty fair across the board, just the drone cost is baked in for the sunkens.
What makes hydra / muta deadly is the fact that you can save up to 3 larva.
I remember Bonyth mentioning that it'd be nice to be able to see what is hatching in eggs, and that seems like the most elegant solution to me, if we did have to have a patch.
But nah, not happening.
It's not that hard to make a decent map for P.
10 mineral patch mains and open ground 3rd/4th with easy wall on natural, please, ideally on a 2player map.
I wonder if the Knock Out ditch concept will be put into more maps and become standard, as it was one of the few maps where the game got past the sort of coin-flip stage of is it muta, or is it hydra bust, and we actually saw a prolonged game.
I also wonder if we might just see the return of ramped naturals like Roaring Current/Tempest as that seems to help with Protoss defending against hydra bust as well. The side effect of course is that ling/lurker busts in TvZ goes down and Terran pushes in TvP get a little worse.
I do wish that more standard 2p maps were common rather than the slew of 4p maps we always have. Out of 7 maps, I think the best breakdown would be 2 2p, 2 3p, 2 4p, and then an experimental map. Instead, we have 1 2p, 1 3p, 4 4p, and one experimental.
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On October 27 2025 21:44 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2025 21:12 oxKnu wrote:
The finals record poster earlier in this thread in ZvP tells you everything you need to know about the state of the game. It's not completely impossible for P to win but since this has been a topic of discussion for decades now I think it would be nice for Blizzard to actually make a change for this specific match-up. Obviously the game is balanced enough in other aspects but there are ways to alleviate some of this non-sense we are subjected to each ASL.
This can be solved with just maps imo, by just making mappool strictly optimized for PvZ. However that's such a delicate task that it would most likely root out even more discourse and arguing.
Best solution is this:
- make cannon build time lower
This would have the most immediate effect on eliminating a lot of the early shenanigans WITHOUT disrupting other match-ups and other aspects of PvZ itself.
Any other change would have too many implications throught the match-ups and different map layouts. Mid to late game PvZ is actually quite well balanced even FS-inspired Terran favored maps thus allowing that ASL mapmaker to continue his life-long obsession. you can probably find 100s of threads on TL throughout the years of people suggesting balance changes for PvZ. But it's not ever going to happen. More realistically maps can change to help out the match-up though. Seems like Knockout was pretty successful balance-wise, would love to see the natural trenches implemented in other maps. speaking of maps: I think I'm ready to put Radeon out to pasture. It was a solid map for a while but I think the meta is pretty stale on it now. Same with Dominator.
Yeah any suggestions for a balance patch is moot anyway, since it's not gonna happen. It's just for theory crafting pov.
The main reason that PvZ balance often ignites heated discussions and most whining instead of other matchups, especially when the ZvT win rate looks even more absurdly unbalanced, is the nature of the gameplay:
- It feels unfair for the Protoss to be killed outright for something they can't have a reliable way to take matters into their own hands.
- It feels extremely unfair when you also consider the fact that Zerg can do one all-in, fail, then still have another chance with another all-in, like in the Polestar game. And god knows if that fails again, the 3rd all-in with Muta can still come.
The Zerg can 100% be the better player to the P, but if the Z beats the P with such a game, then that game is no indication of him being the better player. One game like that in a Bo5/7 is already one game too many, let alone two. We see cheeses and gambles in other matchups too, BBS, 99 Gate, 4 Pool, you name it. But none of them is consistently used as a mainstream strategy like Hydra bust.
Many people like to think all races are balanced in power. They're not. Maps create such relative balance. The size of the natural entrance that allows fast expand for P is the single reason why that matchup is playable. But it's quite apparent for so long that this standard map template is still unfair to Protoss from a strategic pov. If you can't give them the ability to obtain information through ability patches, then make their punishment less severe through maps.
The trench in Knockout would be a good starting point to experiment. Make it the default design. Forget about the FS, Polypoid, Vermeer, Radeon, Polestar etc. Maps should be derived from Knockout with that trench the must have feature. And see how it goes.
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didnt bother watching the finals because i knew exactly how soma was going to play and exactly how the finals was going to go.
yeah soma did what he had to do to win. doesnt change the fact that the way he plays leaves a bitter taste in the mouth if youre a protoss user. such unfun games to watch and to play
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United States10227 Posts
On October 28 2025 00:34 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2025 21:44 Ideas wrote:On October 27 2025 21:12 oxKnu wrote:
The finals record poster earlier in this thread in ZvP tells you everything you need to know about the state of the game. It's not completely impossible for P to win but since this has been a topic of discussion for decades now I think it would be nice for Blizzard to actually make a change for this specific match-up. Obviously the game is balanced enough in other aspects but there are ways to alleviate some of this non-sense we are subjected to each ASL.
This can be solved with just maps imo, by just making mappool strictly optimized for PvZ. However that's such a delicate task that it would most likely root out even more discourse and arguing.
Best solution is this:
- make cannon build time lower
This would have the most immediate effect on eliminating a lot of the early shenanigans WITHOUT disrupting other match-ups and other aspects of PvZ itself.
Any other change would have too many implications throught the match-ups and different map layouts. Mid to late game PvZ is actually quite well balanced even FS-inspired Terran favored maps thus allowing that ASL mapmaker to continue his life-long obsession. you can probably find 100s of threads on TL throughout the years of people suggesting balance changes for PvZ. But it's not ever going to happen. More realistically maps can change to help out the match-up though. Seems like Knockout was pretty successful balance-wise, would love to see the natural trenches implemented in other maps. speaking of maps: I think I'm ready to put Radeon out to pasture. It was a solid map for a while but I think the meta is pretty stale on it now. Same with Dominator. Yeah any suggestions for a balance patch is moot anyway, since it's not gonna happen. It's just for theory crafting pov. The main reason that PvZ balance often ignites heated discussions and most whining instead of other matchups, especially when the ZvT win rate looks even more absurdly unbalanced, is the nature of the gameplay: - It feels unfair for the Protoss to be killed outright for something they can't have a reliable way to take matters into their own hands. - It feels extremely unfair when you also consider the fact that Zerg can do one all-in, fail, then still have another chance with another all-in, like in the Polestar game. And god knows if that fails again, the 3rd all-in with Muta can still come. The Zerg can 100% be the better player to the P, but if the Z beats the P with such a game, then that game is no indication of him being the better player. One game like that in a Bo5/7 is already one game too many, let alone two. We see cheeses and gambles in other matchups too, BBS, 99 Gate, 4 Pool, you name it. But none of them is consistently used as a mainstream strategy like Hydra bust. Many people like to think all races are balanced in power. They're not. Maps create such relative balance. The size of the natural entrance that allows fast expand for P is the single reason why that matchup is playable. But it's quite apparent for so long that this standard map template is still unfair to Protoss from a strategic pov. If you can't give them the ability to obtain information through ability patches, then make their punishment less severe through maps. The trench in Knockout would be a good starting point to experiment. Make it the default design. Forget about the FS, Polypoid, Vermeer, Radeon, Polestar etc. Maps should be derived from Knockout with that trench the must have feature. And see how it goes.
Do you think the trench benefits Terran or Zerg more in TvZ. While lurker busts get weaker supposedly, so too does marine busting. Might be more beneficial to Zerg statistically. I do agree, we should start there with future map design and I think Knock Out largely has shown the success of the concept. Though for some reason the TP winrate is horrific for Protoss.
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On October 28 2025 00:14 Timebon3s wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2025 23:45 M3t4PhYzX wrote:On October 27 2025 09:18 Brett wrote:On October 27 2025 01:46 G5 wrote:
Also, I agree with Bonyth when he says he doesn't understand how Protoss can underperform (specifically vs Zerg) throughout the history of a 25+ year old game and people still say it's a player skill reason as to why they're failing vs Zerg. Like all Protoss players are just morons and bad players and can't figure shit out.
Map makers have honestly never made life easier for Protoss players against Zergs, with wallable naturals on basically every map etc. and Protoss players still by in large fail.
Updated since my ASL 17 post: In the history of BW starleagues (MSL, OSL, ASL), protoss has won 17 finals, terran 34, and zerg 30 (including ASL 20). If you look at results from just the past 20 years, protoss has won 10 (3 in ASL), terran 26 (8 in ASL) and zerg 30 (9 in ASL) ZvP finals results: 12:2 The two protoss finals wins vs zerg were in 2000 (Garimto beat Skelton) and 2006/7 (Bisu beat Savior). LOL Yeah.. Numbers don't lie. This is just sad. -.- Yeah, it sucks that protoss loses all the time and yeah, I am a big fan of Snow. But what concerns me the most, is that it feels detrimental to Brood War as an esport. I really hope this doesn't have a rippling effect in that new players simply opt out of playing the race so we just end up with terrans and zergs in the years to come. I guess the only thing that can even it out is different maps. Mabye more maps with double gas in main or something. This is the only game that's worth following and I love it so much that it hope things will even out. And I love all you BW fans as well <3 Yeah we disagree a lot, but this community is the best there is :D
Love you all !! 
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On October 28 2025 00:49 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2025 00:34 TMNT wrote:On October 27 2025 21:44 Ideas wrote:On October 27 2025 21:12 oxKnu wrote:
The finals record poster earlier in this thread in ZvP tells you everything you need to know about the state of the game. It's not completely impossible for P to win but since this has been a topic of discussion for decades now I think it would be nice for Blizzard to actually make a change for this specific match-up. Obviously the game is balanced enough in other aspects but there are ways to alleviate some of this non-sense we are subjected to each ASL.
This can be solved with just maps imo, by just making mappool strictly optimized for PvZ. However that's such a delicate task that it would most likely root out even more discourse and arguing.
Best solution is this:
- make cannon build time lower
This would have the most immediate effect on eliminating a lot of the early shenanigans WITHOUT disrupting other match-ups and other aspects of PvZ itself.
Any other change would have too many implications throught the match-ups and different map layouts. Mid to late game PvZ is actually quite well balanced even FS-inspired Terran favored maps thus allowing that ASL mapmaker to continue his life-long obsession. you can probably find 100s of threads on TL throughout the years of people suggesting balance changes for PvZ. But it's not ever going to happen. More realistically maps can change to help out the match-up though. Seems like Knockout was pretty successful balance-wise, would love to see the natural trenches implemented in other maps. speaking of maps: I think I'm ready to put Radeon out to pasture. It was a solid map for a while but I think the meta is pretty stale on it now. Same with Dominator. Yeah any suggestions for a balance patch is moot anyway, since it's not gonna happen. It's just for theory crafting pov. The main reason that PvZ balance often ignites heated discussions and most whining instead of other matchups, especially when the ZvT win rate looks even more absurdly unbalanced, is the nature of the gameplay: - It feels unfair for the Protoss to be killed outright for something they can't have a reliable way to take matters into their own hands. - It feels extremely unfair when you also consider the fact that Zerg can do one all-in, fail, then still have another chance with another all-in, like in the Polestar game. And god knows if that fails again, the 3rd all-in with Muta can still come. The Zerg can 100% be the better player to the P, but if the Z beats the P with such a game, then that game is no indication of him being the better player. One game like that in a Bo5/7 is already one game too many, let alone two. We see cheeses and gambles in other matchups too, BBS, 99 Gate, 4 Pool, you name it. But none of them is consistently used as a mainstream strategy like Hydra bust. Many people like to think all races are balanced in power. They're not. Maps create such relative balance. The size of the natural entrance that allows fast expand for P is the single reason why that matchup is playable. But it's quite apparent for so long that this standard map template is still unfair to Protoss from a strategic pov. If you can't give them the ability to obtain information through ability patches, then make their punishment less severe through maps. The trench in Knockout would be a good starting point to experiment. Make it the default design. Forget about the FS, Polypoid, Vermeer, Radeon, Polestar etc. Maps should be derived from Knockout with that trench the must have feature. And see how it goes. Do you think the trench benefits Terran or Zerg more in TvZ. While lurker busts get weaker supposedly, so too does marine busting. Might be more beneficial to Zerg statistically. I do agree, we should start there with future map design and I think Knock Out largely has shown the success of the concept. Though for some reason the TP winrate is horrific for Protoss.
For any other matchup, the effect of the trench is not so obvious compared to Hydra bust, so it's hard to tell. What I guess is it would benefit Zerg more because the amount of times I saw a big group of MM busting through Zerg's sunkens is way higher than the amount of times I saw a Lurker bust. So in that sense it would fix the abysmal ZvT win rate too. Just see 47% ZvT on Knockout compared to 39% on Polestar (no wonder why Artosis said Polestar is one of the best maps lol).
PvT on Knockout is horrible not because of the trench itself, but because of the features outside of it, so that can easily be fixed.
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well maybe just stop calling it "all-in" then?
what's up with people calling it "all-in" when zerg makes any units whatsoever with the intention to attack or pressure or force some sort of response lol
if someone can "all-in" several times in a row then obviously they weren't "all-in" in the first place
especially making early hydras in ZvP shouldn't be called "all-in" because the required amount of resources for defensive cannons mostly becomes dead weight later into the game
and it's not like those "all-ins" failed spectacularly without doing any damage... when protoss has to pull 10 workers for one minute that's at least 50x10=500 lost minerals, so like 10 supply worth of units...
call it a timing or pressure instead, because that's what it usually is.
remember when 2h muta ZvT was considered all-in?
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United States10227 Posts
On October 28 2025 01:42 Kraekkling wrote:
well maybe just stop calling it "all-in" then?
what's up with people calling it "all-in" when zerg makes any units whatsoever with the intention to attack or pressure or force some sort of response lol
if someone can "all-in" several times in a row then obviously they weren't "all-in" in the first place
especially making early hydras in ZvP shouldn't be called "all-in" because the required amount of resources for defensive cannons mostly becomes dead weight later into the game
and it's not like those "all-ins" failed spectacularly without doing any damage... when protoss has to pull 10 workers for one minute that's at least 50x10=500 lost minerals, so like 10 supply worth of units...
call it a timing or pressure instead, because that's what it usually is.
remember when 2h muta ZvT was considered all-in?
Hawk says that after going 3h spire, into fast 2nd gas, hydra den, 4th hatch all at once delays 5th hatch significantly and puts Zerg into a very disadvantaged position where unless they get damage done with their option, Protoss's mid game push is near unstoppable. So it might as well be an all-in with that style.
That being said, 973 or hydra bust variants as you said I would agree are not all-in but rather aggressive pressure builds that have other ways to transition into mid game macro. But the existence of the coin flippy nature of dropping both spire and hydra den at the same time definitely feels sort of all-in, or at least it's about as extreme of a commitment as going 10-10-10 in TvP. I wonder if Protoss in a series should start responding to that with either only going 2 stargate, or some kind of 3-6 gate mass speedlot pressure and skipping stargate entirely. I wonder if going back to making the early goon like back in the day (2 zealot into goon) is an idea that Protoss could use to deny that overlord scout, since it feels like trying to cover all options is practically impossible for the current Protoss meta.
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Gotta be a question on why it took so long for SnOw to make templar/storm early game to deny these hydra push. He clearly lost 2 games believing his sair + dt play would cut it. Only had he go for storm upgrade early on, none of these pushes would have worked.
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On October 28 2025 01:42 Kraekkling wrote:
well maybe just stop calling it "all-in" then?
what's up with people calling it "all-in" when zerg makes any units whatsoever with the intention to attack or pressure or force some sort of response lol
if someone can "all-in" several times in a row then obviously they weren't "all-in" in the first place
especially making early hydras in ZvP shouldn't be called "all-in" because the required amount of resources for defensive cannons mostly becomes dead weight later into the game
and it's not like those "all-ins" failed spectacularly without doing any damage... when protoss has to pull 10 workers for one minute that's at least 50x10=500 lost minerals, so like 10 supply worth of units...
call it a timing or pressure instead, because that's what it usually is.
remember when 2h muta ZvT was considered all-in?
I sort of agree with this notion actually. I guess it's just a lazy way to label things.
But what does it solve if we stop calling it "all-in" though? A terminology issue?
The root of the issue is it's a move with (a) potential to kill immediately and (b) some sacrifice of your own economy. How do you call a Protoss who builds 3 Gates before Nexus in PvT, or a Terran who builds 2 Barracks before CC in TvZ? Probably not an all-in right, because they build their Nexus/CC. But the amount of units they can produce from those structures at that point in time has some potential to kill their opponent outright, with one key difference to the Hydra bust: the potential to kill of the Hydra bust is far stronger.
Would be nice if Protoss can heal Cannons in the same way Terran can with Bunkers, maybe by recharging it with SB. Because in that case, defending the kill move becomes a skill issue, mostly about reaction time, just like how you pull Probes to prevent Ling bust or SCVs to prevent Dragoon bust, not an information issue.
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On October 28 2025 02:04 iFU.pauline wrote:
Gotta be a question on why it took so long for SnOw to make templar/storm early game to deny these hydra push. He clearly lost 2 games believing his sair + dt play would cut it. Only had he go for storm upgrade early on, none of these pushes would have worked.
Yes. Why dont Protoss players go for storm upgrade earlier to stop Hydra bust. Are they stupid? Should always have 2 storms already to cast at 7th minute.
Seriously, is this the first time you watch a PvZ?
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On October 28 2025 02:04 iFU.pauline wrote:
Gotta be a question on why it took so long for SnOw to make templar/storm early game to deny these hydra push. He clearly lost 2 games believing his sair + dt play would cut it. Only had he go for storm upgrade early on, none of these pushes would have worked. Because the Zerg has a much easier time switching between muta and hydra (hence why they drop spire and den) and if your going early storm Zerg will see the lack of sairs and do a muta switch?
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On October 28 2025 02:12 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2025 02:04 iFU.pauline wrote:
Gotta be a question on why it took so long for SnOw to make templar/storm early game to deny these hydra push. He clearly lost 2 games believing his sair + dt play would cut it. Only had he go for storm upgrade early on, none of these pushes would have worked. Yes. Why dont Protoss players go for storm upgrade earlier to stop Hydra bust. Are they stupid? Should always have 2 storms already to cast at 7th minute. Seriously, is this the first time you watch a PvZ?
No, it's not the first time you little shit, but it seems that it clearly could be yours. If protoss sees you going for hydra bust on 5 hatch, motherfucker will be waiting for you with 4 templars at the 8th minute. SnOw baited on his sair dt play and miserably failed coze he faced a better player. That reasoning makes more sense than all your unbalanced theories crap about pvz.
Ho btw, if a zerg could all-in and still have an other chance, shouldn't we call that "not an all-in"? Right Einstein? So please, how about you make an account and exploit the unbalance pvz match up by grinding your way up just doing hydra bust see how far you go.
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dropping both spire and hydra den at the same time definitely feels sort of all-in, or at least it's about as extreme of a commitment as going 10-10-10 in TvP.
This is imo a quite wrong assessment. The earlier someone starts to cut corners in their build, the more all-in it is. When the build optimization implies cutting corners at 2 minutes, it's a much much bigger sacrifice than cutting corners after 4-5 minutes of macro-oriented play.
But what does it solve if we stop calling it "all-in" though?
Using proper assessments and terminology allows people to understand whats going on and to have a better and more concise discussion on what happened and why.
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On October 28 2025 03:08 iFU.pauline wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2025 02:12 TMNT wrote:On October 28 2025 02:04 iFU.pauline wrote:
Gotta be a question on why it took so long for SnOw to make templar/storm early game to deny these hydra push. He clearly lost 2 games believing his sair + dt play would cut it. Only had he go for storm upgrade early on, none of these pushes would have worked. Yes. Why dont Protoss players go for storm upgrade earlier to stop Hydra bust. Are they stupid? Should always have 2 storms already to cast at 7th minute. Seriously, is this the first time you watch a PvZ? No, it's not the first time you little shit, but it seems that it clearly could be yours. If protoss sees you going for hydra bust on 5 hatch, motherfucker will be waiting for you with 4 templars at the 8th minute. SnOw baited on his sair dt play and miserably failed coze he faced a better player. That reasoning makes more sense than all your unbalanced theories crap about pvz. Ho btw, if a zerg could all-in and still have an other chance, shouldn't we call that "not an all-in"? Right Einstein? So please, how about you make an account and exploit the unbalance pvz match up by grinding your way up just doing hydra bust see how far you go.
My bad, I didn't realize we are playing in single mode with the target of having storm as soon as possible after a fast expansion. Because apparently that's the level of play you're at.
Notice how absolutely no one in this thread has ever suggested that Snow dying to Hydra bust in those games is because of late storm? That should be the obvious red flag for you to realize how stupid your opnion is. That you are suggesting Snow should have storm available at that point, let alone 4 HTs in the 8th minute, shows your understanding of the game is at a level that makes me look like the Einstein of Starcraft for real.
Now let me break in down for you in numbers: in the Dominator game, the bust occurs at 7:45, which means to have storm available by that time, you have to start the research at 6:30. And Snow only started his Archive at 6:40 and the first DT only came out during the bust and you accused him of Sair DT bait play lmao. And that doesn't even account for the fact that he saw both Spire and Den so why should he cut Corsairs to rush for storm?
Go fucking find me a pro PvZ game where the storm research is started at 6:30 and we're talking.
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Jesus i checked eloboard Snow wr vs Soma is at 38.8% . I honestly didnt know it was this bad lol. This final was David vs Goliath pretty much.
Something interesting also is that Protoss is doing better on Pole star compared to Radeon. But the game sample size is smaller for polestar.
Another thing that surprise me is the Apocalypse stats. They are almost at 50% for pvz. From the all modern maps i felt that one just one of the most enjoyable to play from recent times. No crazy mechanics. Very standard indeed.
Base on that WR i think the mindgames were too strong for Snow to deal with. He for sure should have went the Mini Road and try out of the box stuff.. Specially in a final would have been cool to test Soma nerves in tricky situations.
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On October 28 2025 06:31 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Jesus i checked eloboard Snow wr vs Soma is at 38.8% . I honestly didnt know it was this bad lol. This final was David vs Goliath pretty much.
Something interesting also is that Protoss is doing better on Pole star compared to Radeon. But the game sample size is smaller for polestar.
Another thing that surprise me is the Apocalypse stats. They are almost at 50% for pvz. From the all modern maps i felt that one just one of the most enjoyable to play from recent times. No crazy mechanics. Very standard indeed.
Base on that WR i think the mindgames were too strong for Snow to deal with. He for sure should have went the Mini Road and try out of the box stuff.. Specially in a final would have been cool to test Soma nerves in tricky situations.
either that or zvp is not balanced at highest level of play... who knows
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On October 28 2025 06:31 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Jesus i checked eloboard Snow wr vs Soma is at 38.8% . I honestly didnt know it was this bad lol. This final was David vs Goliath pretty much.
Something interesting also is that Protoss is doing better on Pole star compared to Radeon. But the game sample size is smaller for polestar.
Another thing that surprise me is the Apocalypse stats. They are almost at 50% for pvz. From the all modern maps i felt that one just one of the most enjoyable to play from recent times. No crazy mechanics. Very standard indeed.
Base on that WR i think the mindgames were too strong for Snow to deal with. He for sure should have went the Mini Road and try out of the box stuff.. Specially in a final would have been cool to test Soma nerves in tricky situations.
The 38% is his all time win rate, including vs pre-military Soma (2021-2023), which was very bad. It was no secret.
It's better vs post-military Soma (2025) at 47% although it can go down a bit in the future because of the rusty period of Soma after his return. It is no secret either that Snow's PvZ has improved a lot during that time, to the point that he's on par with Bisu now (there was some period in the past few years that he was even better than Bisu.
As for the maps, surely the experience in whatever level you are is different to ASL level.
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EPT
