On October 28 2025 17:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 28 2025 16:36 TMNT wrote:
On October 28 2025 15:37 mtcn77 wrote:
On October 28 2025 15:13 FlaShFTW wrote:
On October 28 2025 12:13 mtcn77 wrote:
On October 28 2025 00:13 FlaShFTW wrote:
On October 27 2025 14:21 mtcn77 wrote:
On October 27 2025 14:01 FlaShFTW wrote:
On October 27 2025 13:33 mtcn77 wrote: [quote] Okay, you got me. I really believed you would have listened for once. I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Which brings me: you know, 1 stargate 1 corsair is the same amount of gas as a templar archive? I'm sure first corsair is as game breaking as having proper aoe.
Congratulations, you made a BUILDING and mutas are now flying into your base and you have no stargate to make corsairs. Or even if you made the templar, there's something called MICRO where the mutalisks move out from under storm even if you hit it right on them. But I suppose hoping for your Zerg opponent to momentarily lose all motor functions or have their mouse disconnect is about the best strategy for Protoss to reliably beat Zerg these days.
Idk, call all the pro Protoss players stupid, but maybe... just maybe, that corsair and stargate are useful for something.
I meant the archon.
Yes, the historically stupid, fat ass Archon that, while having the same range as a muta, can get outmicroed by a muta which can just fly around your base killing all your shit while the archon squirms around in in your buildings yearning to hit the mutas.
It's ok to just say you don't play the game mate and that you're just an armchair theorycrafter. Just don't pretend like your strategic insight holds any weight.
That last paragraph is straight what I'm going up against. Last season, people called me wrong that hallucinations would never work. Yet, this season Snow did make hallucinated shuttles in Roaring Currents. He also made archons, but I brought up hallucinations because it was totally outside the playbook for armchair knowitalls. It's not that I don't believe this is possible, it is because you don't believe it possible. When you make an assumption to the contrary of what pros believe to be true, you are the naysayer. Just stick to wins, not people like yourselves opinions and leave me out of it. None of you will be able to silence me until protoss starts winning and you better get used to playing the right way instead of advocating the wrong way.
Using a lost game where the hallucinations did practically nothing is a great way to make your point. But please, by all means, keep going.
Lost game, on "grand finals" played by none other than everyone's favourite protoss loser. I can't believe you were cheering for a faker who held back since the first game, if you really believe that. It must be really bleak to hold snow to such a standard that his disappointment of his fans means only he didn't really play up to his usual self. This is a very single minded stubborn attitude. Look I'm not the one arguing protoss players should copy games Bisu invented in 2006 and hoping to win at 2025 riding on bisu's royal road. You have to be crazy to think builds Bisu invented, like FE, can be surpasses by copycats in retrospect. It just doesn't happen. You have to surprise your opponent. Soma wasn't surprised even to think mutalisks were necessary. If you want to win, you have to break out of the mold. I congratulate snow did this, just as I congratulate larva. If you break out of the mold you-so-successfully cast yourself into by cannonising bisu builds into the standard and only successful way of playing pvz; "You will have nothing and you will be happy." It is time we look to the future, not the past. PS: what I mean:+ Show Spoiler +
On October 15 2025 09:49 so0willprevail wrote: Too bad Bisu didn’t get Maelsteom vs Zerg mass air. Really think he would’ve won game 5
Getting Maelstrom would have required: Citadel of Adun - 150/100 - 38 seconds Templar Archives - 150/200 - 38 seconds Malestrom - 100/100 - 63 seconds 2 Dark Templar - 250/200
650 / 600 and 2:19.
I'm pretty sure there aren't 650 / 600 from Bisu's build that could be cut (Disruption Web is 200/200) to have it in time for the first major air battle which is when he lost the game, so realistically, getting a Dark Archon pushes the attack later which I'm not sure helps the Protoss player unless they get a magical hit.
I'm pretty sure if soma saw a Dark Archon, he just takes his air fleet and systematically destroys all of the island bases and never gives Bisu the fight he's looking for.
You give the island maps to zerg. You don't make air. Stop playing pvz like it is zvz. You don't have to have air in order to bust zerg.
On October 17 2025 16:15 Dante08 wrote: Bisu choked so hard on Roaring Currents, wtf was he doing man. He had 2 reavers sitting in his base the whole game when Soma took the expansions outside his base.
This is a bad read. Those 2 Reavers are all the ground army he had lol. You can use 2 Reavers to grab some Drones and run, you can't use them to fight mass Hydra. Plus, they're there to defend potential doom drop.
Watch more games on this map and you'll realise when P go full skytoss on this map, they have to give up all the land for Z. You can't have enough to control both air AND land. Ideally it'll be 5 base P (3 bottom islands) vs 7 base Z (1 top island) and you fight until one side runs out of steam.
Then why build the reavers? He could have at least used them to harass or join the main fight. Soma brought his hydras to fight whenever he could but Bisu just attacked randomly with only air units. Not saying he would have won but those reavers could have been really helpful in some of the fights.
To defend the main and nat in the earlier phase of the game when Carriers are not out yet, and the islands in the later phase. Isn't that obvious? The Reavers served their purpose. At that point in the game they're not that useful anymore. Visit the proleague thread and see the Mini vs Queen game on this map on 15 Oct to see the importance of the reavers during that phase. Since Protoss rushes for Carriers, Reavers are the only defence they have against Hydra bust.
Protoss players might be trying too hard to be perfectionists. Yes, zerg will dive at your army with mutalisks and try to hunt HTs. I said make archons and just weather zerg skirmishes until you can march on zerg creep, then your army will pay off. Nothing zerg has by this point can compare to zealots and archons. If zerg is smart it will stay behind with hydralisks waiting.
I'll take the bait and ask again, for the sake of clarity :
What exactly is the correct PvZ strategy to play in order to achieve victory, that you keep talking about? Can you clarify, i.e. do we fast expand, which units to make, when is the timing push?
Good night, sweet thread.
Don't worry, I won't respond since he didn't read the spoiler.
I obviously did but don't think making zealots and archons and attack Zerg is your entire strategy.
Hell in the very same post you even acknowledged that Zerg will wait with Hydras and that would absolutely destroys the zealot archon combo. But then you just stopped. It's like you're making a strategy to fail, not to win.
On October 28 2025 17:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 28 2025 16:36 TMNT wrote:
On October 28 2025 15:37 mtcn77 wrote:
On October 28 2025 15:13 FlaShFTW wrote:
On October 28 2025 12:13 mtcn77 wrote:
On October 28 2025 00:13 FlaShFTW wrote:
On October 27 2025 14:21 mtcn77 wrote:
On October 27 2025 14:01 FlaShFTW wrote: [quote] Congratulations, you made a BUILDING and mutas are now flying into your base and you have no stargate to make corsairs. Or even if you made the templar, there's something called MICRO where the mutalisks move out from under storm even if you hit it right on them. But I suppose hoping for your Zerg opponent to momentarily lose all motor functions or have their mouse disconnect is about the best strategy for Protoss to reliably beat Zerg these days.
Idk, call all the pro Protoss players stupid, but maybe... just maybe, that corsair and stargate are useful for something.
I meant the archon.
Yes, the historically stupid, fat ass Archon that, while having the same range as a muta, can get outmicroed by a muta which can just fly around your base killing all your shit while the archon squirms around in in your buildings yearning to hit the mutas.
It's ok to just say you don't play the game mate and that you're just an armchair theorycrafter. Just don't pretend like your strategic insight holds any weight.
That last paragraph is straight what I'm going up against. Last season, people called me wrong that hallucinations would never work. Yet, this season Snow did make hallucinated shuttles in Roaring Currents. He also made archons, but I brought up hallucinations because it was totally outside the playbook for armchair knowitalls. It's not that I don't believe this is possible, it is because you don't believe it possible. When you make an assumption to the contrary of what pros believe to be true, you are the naysayer. Just stick to wins, not people like yourselves opinions and leave me out of it. None of you will be able to silence me until protoss starts winning and you better get used to playing the right way instead of advocating the wrong way.
Using a lost game where the hallucinations did practically nothing is a great way to make your point. But please, by all means, keep going.
Lost game, on "grand finals" played by none other than everyone's favourite protoss loser. I can't believe you were cheering for a faker who held back since the first game, if you really believe that. It must be really bleak to hold snow to such a standard that his disappointment of his fans means only he didn't really play up to his usual self. This is a very single minded stubborn attitude. Look I'm not the one arguing protoss players should copy games Bisu invented in 2006 and hoping to win at 2025 riding on bisu's royal road. You have to be crazy to think builds Bisu invented, like FE, can be surpasses by copycats in retrospect. It just doesn't happen. You have to surprise your opponent. Soma wasn't surprised even to think mutalisks were necessary. If you want to win, you have to break out of the mold. I congratulate snow did this, just as I congratulate larva. If you break out of the mold you-so-successfully cast yourself into by cannonising bisu builds into the standard and only successful way of playing pvz; "You will have nothing and you will be happy." It is time we look to the future, not the past. PS: what I mean:+ Show Spoiler +
On October 15 2025 09:49 so0willprevail wrote: Too bad Bisu didn’t get Maelsteom vs Zerg mass air. Really think he would’ve won game 5
Getting Maelstrom would have required: Citadel of Adun - 150/100 - 38 seconds Templar Archives - 150/200 - 38 seconds Malestrom - 100/100 - 63 seconds 2 Dark Templar - 250/200
650 / 600 and 2:19.
I'm pretty sure there aren't 650 / 600 from Bisu's build that could be cut (Disruption Web is 200/200) to have it in time for the first major air battle which is when he lost the game, so realistically, getting a Dark Archon pushes the attack later which I'm not sure helps the Protoss player unless they get a magical hit.
I'm pretty sure if soma saw a Dark Archon, he just takes his air fleet and systematically destroys all of the island bases and never gives Bisu the fight he's looking for.
You give the island maps to zerg. You don't make air. Stop playing pvz like it is zvz. You don't have to have air in order to bust zerg.
On October 17 2025 16:15 Dante08 wrote: Bisu choked so hard on Roaring Currents, wtf was he doing man. He had 2 reavers sitting in his base the whole game when Soma took the expansions outside his base.
This is a bad read. Those 2 Reavers are all the ground army he had lol. You can use 2 Reavers to grab some Drones and run, you can't use them to fight mass Hydra. Plus, they're there to defend potential doom drop.
Watch more games on this map and you'll realise when P go full skytoss on this map, they have to give up all the land for Z. You can't have enough to control both air AND land. Ideally it'll be 5 base P (3 bottom islands) vs 7 base Z (1 top island) and you fight until one side runs out of steam.
Then why build the reavers? He could have at least used them to harass or join the main fight. Soma brought his hydras to fight whenever he could but Bisu just attacked randomly with only air units. Not saying he would have won but those reavers could have been really helpful in some of the fights.
To defend the main and nat in the earlier phase of the game when Carriers are not out yet, and the islands in the later phase. Isn't that obvious? The Reavers served their purpose. At that point in the game they're not that useful anymore. Visit the proleague thread and see the Mini vs Queen game on this map on 15 Oct to see the importance of the reavers during that phase. Since Protoss rushes for Carriers, Reavers are the only defence they have against Hydra bust.
Protoss players might be trying too hard to be perfectionists. Yes, zerg will dive at your army with mutalisks and try to hunt HTs. I said make archons and just weather zerg skirmishes until you can march on zerg creep, then your army will pay off. Nothing zerg has by this point can compare to zealots and archons. If zerg is smart it will stay behind with hydralisks waiting.
I'll take the bait and ask again, for the sake of clarity :
What exactly is the correct PvZ strategy to play in order to achieve victory, that you keep talking about? Can you clarify, i.e. do we fast expand, which units to make, when is the timing push?
Good night, sweet thread.
Don't worry, I won't respond since he didn't read the spoiler.
I obviously did but don't think making zealots and archons and attack Zerg is your entire strategy.
Hell in the very same post you even acknowledged that Zerg will wait with Hydras and that would absolutely destroys the zealot archon combo. But then you just stopped. It's like you're making a strategy to fail, not to win.
No, I meant a smart zerg would not engage you with muta rush in that sentence. That would actually open the way for your expedition force without repercussion. You won't have to anticipate mutalisks at your base because I said it right there. Zerg will be making hydralisks since they are cheaper. That will provide the perfect cover for you to go ahead and attack the zerg. If you back out like snow, it is on you. If you move like shuttle, you are a hero.
On October 28 2025 17:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 28 2025 16:36 TMNT wrote:
On October 28 2025 15:37 mtcn77 wrote:
On October 28 2025 15:13 FlaShFTW wrote:
On October 28 2025 12:13 mtcn77 wrote:
On October 28 2025 00:13 FlaShFTW wrote:
On October 27 2025 14:21 mtcn77 wrote: [quote] I meant the archon.
Yes, the historically stupid, fat ass Archon that, while having the same range as a muta, can get outmicroed by a muta which can just fly around your base killing all your shit while the archon squirms around in in your buildings yearning to hit the mutas.
It's ok to just say you don't play the game mate and that you're just an armchair theorycrafter. Just don't pretend like your strategic insight holds any weight.
That last paragraph is straight what I'm going up against. Last season, people called me wrong that hallucinations would never work. Yet, this season Snow did make hallucinated shuttles in Roaring Currents. He also made archons, but I brought up hallucinations because it was totally outside the playbook for armchair knowitalls. It's not that I don't believe this is possible, it is because you don't believe it possible. When you make an assumption to the contrary of what pros believe to be true, you are the naysayer. Just stick to wins, not people like yourselves opinions and leave me out of it. None of you will be able to silence me until protoss starts winning and you better get used to playing the right way instead of advocating the wrong way.
Using a lost game where the hallucinations did practically nothing is a great way to make your point. But please, by all means, keep going.
Lost game, on "grand finals" played by none other than everyone's favourite protoss loser. I can't believe you were cheering for a faker who held back since the first game, if you really believe that. It must be really bleak to hold snow to such a standard that his disappointment of his fans means only he didn't really play up to his usual self. This is a very single minded stubborn attitude. Look I'm not the one arguing protoss players should copy games Bisu invented in 2006 and hoping to win at 2025 riding on bisu's royal road. You have to be crazy to think builds Bisu invented, like FE, can be surpasses by copycats in retrospect. It just doesn't happen. You have to surprise your opponent. Soma wasn't surprised even to think mutalisks were necessary. If you want to win, you have to break out of the mold. I congratulate snow did this, just as I congratulate larva. If you break out of the mold you-so-successfully cast yourself into by cannonising bisu builds into the standard and only successful way of playing pvz; "You will have nothing and you will be happy." It is time we look to the future, not the past. PS: what I mean:+ Show Spoiler +
On October 15 2025 09:49 so0willprevail wrote: Too bad Bisu didn’t get Maelsteom vs Zerg mass air. Really think he would’ve won game 5
Getting Maelstrom would have required: Citadel of Adun - 150/100 - 38 seconds Templar Archives - 150/200 - 38 seconds Malestrom - 100/100 - 63 seconds 2 Dark Templar - 250/200
650 / 600 and 2:19.
I'm pretty sure there aren't 650 / 600 from Bisu's build that could be cut (Disruption Web is 200/200) to have it in time for the first major air battle which is when he lost the game, so realistically, getting a Dark Archon pushes the attack later which I'm not sure helps the Protoss player unless they get a magical hit.
I'm pretty sure if soma saw a Dark Archon, he just takes his air fleet and systematically destroys all of the island bases and never gives Bisu the fight he's looking for.
You give the island maps to zerg. You don't make air. Stop playing pvz like it is zvz. You don't have to have air in order to bust zerg.
On October 17 2025 16:15 Dante08 wrote: Bisu choked so hard on Roaring Currents, wtf was he doing man. He had 2 reavers sitting in his base the whole game when Soma took the expansions outside his base.
This is a bad read. Those 2 Reavers are all the ground army he had lol. You can use 2 Reavers to grab some Drones and run, you can't use them to fight mass Hydra. Plus, they're there to defend potential doom drop.
Watch more games on this map and you'll realise when P go full skytoss on this map, they have to give up all the land for Z. You can't have enough to control both air AND land. Ideally it'll be 5 base P (3 bottom islands) vs 7 base Z (1 top island) and you fight until one side runs out of steam.
Then why build the reavers? He could have at least used them to harass or join the main fight. Soma brought his hydras to fight whenever he could but Bisu just attacked randomly with only air units. Not saying he would have won but those reavers could have been really helpful in some of the fights.
To defend the main and nat in the earlier phase of the game when Carriers are not out yet, and the islands in the later phase. Isn't that obvious? The Reavers served their purpose. At that point in the game they're not that useful anymore. Visit the proleague thread and see the Mini vs Queen game on this map on 15 Oct to see the importance of the reavers during that phase. Since Protoss rushes for Carriers, Reavers are the only defence they have against Hydra bust.
Protoss players might be trying too hard to be perfectionists. Yes, zerg will dive at your army with mutalisks and try to hunt HTs. I said make archons and just weather zerg skirmishes until you can march on zerg creep, then your army will pay off. Nothing zerg has by this point can compare to zealots and archons. If zerg is smart it will stay behind with hydralisks waiting.
I'll take the bait and ask again, for the sake of clarity :
What exactly is the correct PvZ strategy to play in order to achieve victory, that you keep talking about? Can you clarify, i.e. do we fast expand, which units to make, when is the timing push?
Good night, sweet thread.
Don't worry, I won't respond since he didn't read the spoiler.
I obviously did but don't think making zealots and archons and attack Zerg is your entire strategy.
Hell in the very same post you even acknowledged that Zerg will wait with Hydras and that would absolutely destroys the zealot archon combo. But then you just stopped. It's like you're making a strategy to fail, not to win.
No, I meant a smart zerg would not engage you with muta rush in that sentence. That would actually open the way for your expedition force without repercussion. You won't have to anticipate mutalisks at your base because I said it right there. Zerg will be making hydralisks since they are cheaper. That will provide the perfect cover for you to go ahead and attack the zerg. If you back out like snow, it is on you. If you move like shuttle, you are a hero.
So your idea is to remove Stargate totally from PvZ, make Archons to deal with potential Mutas, and use all the resources for ground army?
On October 28 2025 17:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 28 2025 16:36 TMNT wrote:
On October 28 2025 15:37 mtcn77 wrote:
On October 28 2025 15:13 FlaShFTW wrote:
On October 28 2025 12:13 mtcn77 wrote:
On October 28 2025 00:13 FlaShFTW wrote: [quote] Yes, the historically stupid, fat ass Archon that, while having the same range as a muta, can get outmicroed by a muta which can just fly around your base killing all your shit while the archon squirms around in in your buildings yearning to hit the mutas.
It's ok to just say you don't play the game mate and that you're just an armchair theorycrafter. Just don't pretend like your strategic insight holds any weight.
That last paragraph is straight what I'm going up against. Last season, people called me wrong that hallucinations would never work. Yet, this season Snow did make hallucinated shuttles in Roaring Currents. He also made archons, but I brought up hallucinations because it was totally outside the playbook for armchair knowitalls. It's not that I don't believe this is possible, it is because you don't believe it possible. When you make an assumption to the contrary of what pros believe to be true, you are the naysayer. Just stick to wins, not people like yourselves opinions and leave me out of it. None of you will be able to silence me until protoss starts winning and you better get used to playing the right way instead of advocating the wrong way.
Using a lost game where the hallucinations did practically nothing is a great way to make your point. But please, by all means, keep going.
Lost game, on "grand finals" played by none other than everyone's favourite protoss loser. I can't believe you were cheering for a faker who held back since the first game, if you really believe that. It must be really bleak to hold snow to such a standard that his disappointment of his fans means only he didn't really play up to his usual self. This is a very single minded stubborn attitude. Look I'm not the one arguing protoss players should copy games Bisu invented in 2006 and hoping to win at 2025 riding on bisu's royal road. You have to be crazy to think builds Bisu invented, like FE, can be surpasses by copycats in retrospect. It just doesn't happen. You have to surprise your opponent. Soma wasn't surprised even to think mutalisks were necessary. If you want to win, you have to break out of the mold. I congratulate snow did this, just as I congratulate larva. If you break out of the mold you-so-successfully cast yourself into by cannonising bisu builds into the standard and only successful way of playing pvz; "You will have nothing and you will be happy." It is time we look to the future, not the past. PS: what I mean:+ Show Spoiler +
On October 15 2025 09:49 so0willprevail wrote: Too bad Bisu didn’t get Maelsteom vs Zerg mass air. Really think he would’ve won game 5
Getting Maelstrom would have required: Citadel of Adun - 150/100 - 38 seconds Templar Archives - 150/200 - 38 seconds Malestrom - 100/100 - 63 seconds 2 Dark Templar - 250/200
650 / 600 and 2:19.
I'm pretty sure there aren't 650 / 600 from Bisu's build that could be cut (Disruption Web is 200/200) to have it in time for the first major air battle which is when he lost the game, so realistically, getting a Dark Archon pushes the attack later which I'm not sure helps the Protoss player unless they get a magical hit.
I'm pretty sure if soma saw a Dark Archon, he just takes his air fleet and systematically destroys all of the island bases and never gives Bisu the fight he's looking for.
You give the island maps to zerg. You don't make air. Stop playing pvz like it is zvz. You don't have to have air in order to bust zerg.
On October 17 2025 16:15 Dante08 wrote: Bisu choked so hard on Roaring Currents, wtf was he doing man. He had 2 reavers sitting in his base the whole game when Soma took the expansions outside his base.
This is a bad read. Those 2 Reavers are all the ground army he had lol. You can use 2 Reavers to grab some Drones and run, you can't use them to fight mass Hydra. Plus, they're there to defend potential doom drop.
Watch more games on this map and you'll realise when P go full skytoss on this map, they have to give up all the land for Z. You can't have enough to control both air AND land. Ideally it'll be 5 base P (3 bottom islands) vs 7 base Z (1 top island) and you fight until one side runs out of steam.
Then why build the reavers? He could have at least used them to harass or join the main fight. Soma brought his hydras to fight whenever he could but Bisu just attacked randomly with only air units. Not saying he would have won but those reavers could have been really helpful in some of the fights.
To defend the main and nat in the earlier phase of the game when Carriers are not out yet, and the islands in the later phase. Isn't that obvious? The Reavers served their purpose. At that point in the game they're not that useful anymore. Visit the proleague thread and see the Mini vs Queen game on this map on 15 Oct to see the importance of the reavers during that phase. Since Protoss rushes for Carriers, Reavers are the only defence they have against Hydra bust.
Protoss players might be trying too hard to be perfectionists. Yes, zerg will dive at your army with mutalisks and try to hunt HTs. I said make archons and just weather zerg skirmishes until you can march on zerg creep, then your army will pay off. Nothing zerg has by this point can compare to zealots and archons. If zerg is smart it will stay behind with hydralisks waiting.
I'll take the bait and ask again, for the sake of clarity :
What exactly is the correct PvZ strategy to play in order to achieve victory, that you keep talking about? Can you clarify, i.e. do we fast expand, which units to make, when is the timing push?
Good night, sweet thread.
Don't worry, I won't respond since he didn't read the spoiler.
I obviously did but don't think making zealots and archons and attack Zerg is your entire strategy.
Hell in the very same post you even acknowledged that Zerg will wait with Hydras and that would absolutely destroys the zealot archon combo. But then you just stopped. It's like you're making a strategy to fail, not to win.
No, I meant a smart zerg would not engage you with muta rush in that sentence. That would actually open the way for your expedition force without repercussion. You won't have to anticipate mutalisks at your base because I said it right there. Zerg will be making hydralisks since they are cheaper. That will provide the perfect cover for you to go ahead and attack the zerg. If you back out like snow, it is on you. If you move like shuttle, you are a hero.
So your idea is to remove Stargate totally from PvZ, make Archons to deal with potential Mutas, and use all the resources for ground army?
Congrats you've just escaped D rank.
I just said that is how larva plays roaring currents. Soma makes even less. Change my mind.
On October 28 2025 17:18 felleN wrote: Snow defiently didn't show his best form in the finals and soma looked like he was in beast mode so congrats to soma. I think next season we need to see more maps that aren't so zerg favored. See you guys next season.
this is actually true. SnOw was not in his best form, but that is somewhat his own responsibility. SnOw has decreased his activity right after his ASL19 loss. He does Chinese spons, KCM, and proleague. He reduced his ladder activity and stopped playing small sponsor games completely. His activity is down by like 50%. Other pros have noted SnOw was not in his best form vs barracks. among pros it is a known fact. SnOw is still the best protoss even in his current form, but there used to be a bigger gap with the other protoss'. His PvZ suffered the most from his reduced activity, because Larva, Queen and SoMa are still pushing hard at developing the zerg optimizations and mind games on Soulkey's Meta. But SnOw due to his lack of activity is not doing the same for Protoss. He used to create his own counter meta but is now behind on the progress.
Regarding the probe count, that's normal number from constant probe production from 2 Nexus, which is BW economic 101 stuff. You want to reach saturation immediately once you have your 3rd Nexus, just like Terran with their 3rd CC. But honestly, I don't know if cutting probe would help. Say you are only on 40 probes at that point in the game instead of 48, that gives you an extra 400 minerals, so you can build 2 extra cannons for Hydra and 1 extra in main for Muta, or something like that. In that case, even if Zerg does intend to go for the bust, he could just back off and macro, while you're stuck at the situation I described in the first paragraph.
I've gotta push back a bit on this. 2 extra cannons absolutely makes a difference in that defense. In this game he doesn't even need to cut workers to afford it - he has ~300 minerals to spare after scouting the hydra attack and a probe sitting at the front after dropping the first few cannons, and he doesn't scoot around to the top side to make a few more. He has another 150/100 tied up in another corsair that won't add anything to his defense. You keep acting like soma has a magic 8-ball and makes the perfect decision without scouting in every scenario but that's not how RTS games with fog of war function. Snow had options to make soma guess (and potentially guess wrong) and he didn't use them, he just chose greed every time.
My point isn't that I know how to hold a hydra bust better than Snow, my point is that when Zerg get busted in ZvT because they made too few sunkens everyone points out how greedy they were trying to be, but when Snow tries to hold a 3 hatch hydra bust with 3 cannons and 2 zealots every acts like soma's play/Z=OP is the problem.
Regarding the probe count, that's normal number from constant probe production from 2 Nexus, which is BW economic 101 stuff. You want to reach saturation immediately once you have your 3rd Nexus, just like Terran with their 3rd CC. But honestly, I don't know if cutting probe would help. Say you are only on 40 probes at that point in the game instead of 48, that gives you an extra 400 minerals, so you can build 2 extra cannons for Hydra and 1 extra in main for Muta, or something like that. In that case, even if Zerg does intend to go for the bust, he could just back off and macro, while you're stuck at the situation I described in the first paragraph.
I've gotta push back a bit on this. 2 extra cannons absolutely makes a difference in that defense. In this game he doesn't even need to cut workers to afford it - he has ~300 minerals to spare after scouting the hydra attack and a probe sitting at the front after dropping the first few cannons, and he doesn't scoot around to the top side to make a few more. He has another 150/100 tied up in another corsair that won't add anything to his defense. You keep acting like soma has a magic 8-ball and makes the perfect decision without scouting in every scenario but that's not how RTS games with fog of war function. Snow had options to make soma guess (and potentially guess wrong) and he didn't use them, he just chose greed every time.
My point isn't that I know how to hold a hydra bust better than Snow, my point is that when Zerg get busted in ZvT because they made too few sunkens everyone points out how greedy they were trying to be, but when Snow tries to hold a 3 hatch hydra bust with 3 cannons and 2 zealots every acts like soma's play/Z=OP is the problem.
What are you talking about (in the bold part)? Snow initially had 2 cannons (as it should be). After the 4 zealot pressure he saw Den, thus he warped in 4 more. The bust started with 4 cannons already finished and 3 warping. He didn't greed on cannons, some of them just didn't finish quickly enough. And this is about just as usual as any Hydra bust attempt you'll see at this level. Zerg does, and should do, the same in marine bust: get the right amount of sunkens and drone pull if needed. The "everyone" that criticizes them for being greedy is just wrong.
Unless you're saying Protoss should always have 7-8 cannons ready BEFORE the Hydras arrive, then I guarantee you can't find a game like that at pro level, unless the situation is Protoss knows for sure Zerg will throw everything at him, or Protoss already secures a huge lead that throwing away 1000 mineral for deadweight is okay.
Also don't get the part when you said Snow had options to make Soma guess? What do you mean by that? If you build excessive cannons, Zerg can see it and decide to back off, no? Where is the guessing part?
Also, none of the above discussion deals with the information part. No one is saying the level of information discrepancy in this matchup is magic 8-ball vs blind guy. But you can't deny that Zerg has huge information advantage compared to Protoss in this matchup, and that advantage can lead to a killing blow, which occurs way way more often in PvZ than in any other matchup. I made that point so many times: if it's just something normal, you'd see in the other two matchups something similar. You don't.
Rush distances are considered imbalanced by map makers, if Z cannot make creep+sunken reactively on terran bio move out. If they have to place creep colonies in advance, that's considered too hard for Z
No one made that distinction for hydras and cannons. Best moves P have are scouting it early, winning time with the wall and zealots and probe pulls, and occasionally making some cannons blindly and cancelling them depending on scouting.
The TLDR is that map makers almost never cared about P.
Edit: To be fair, there are some nice points in the maps for P, such as we finally got the easy to wall naturals, more horizontal chokes, occasional nice-to-cannon-rush natural lineup, and gaps in the minerals for zealots to sit in. Those are all nice and should be acknowledged.
Just not helping with the lack of scouting much. Alternative routes to get a worker inside main such as mineralwalk usually help. 10 mineral patches in main make P timings more crisp and easier to defend everything(or to put pressure and avoid having to defend). The highground nat, obviously. These are pretty rare map features.
On October 28 2025 21:14 Soulforged wrote: Rush distances are considered imbalanced by map makers, if Z cannot make creep+sunken reactively on terran bio move out. If they have to place creep colonies in advance, that's considered too hard for Z
No one made that distinction for hydras and cannons. Best moves P have are scouting it early, winning time with the wall and zealots and probe pulls, and occasionally making some cannons blindly and cancelling them depending on scouting.
The TLDR is that map makers almost never cared about P.
Yes. this is a very good point. The standardized map size and rush distance make everyone forget about this and take it for granted.
A sunken finishes in 24s from the drone, which is about the time (maybe slightly less) the bio force moves accross the map. Zerg can only react once they see the bio moves out. There's no way to know beforehand. If somehow the standard rush distance were 20s or so, Zerg would be fucked. Still the same game, same race, but we would probably be in a different world where Soulkey's genius couldn't get him past Ro16. I wonder in such case we can call it a skill issue by Zerg players, or can we blame the imbalance? We just don't realize we're in a similar situation with Protoss (albeit the extent is much less severe obviously).
I don't disagree PvZ is difficult to play but Soma is a master at managing his economy while putting on/faking pressure. The fact is he simply played better. Snow going for DTs every time was a braindead move, Soma was too well prepared for it. If Snow ever had more than 2 zealots alive to tank for cannons and early legs he wouldn't have died to hydra bust. Bisu nearly beat Soma if not for some random air map which clearly carrier/sair while a nice idea gets shit on by devourers/muta, and a zergling runby he could have blocked.
Edit: Polestar was legit D rank play. What is that building placement lol.
On October 28 2025 00:09 kidcrash wrote: The way you Nerf hydra busts without buffing a cannon rush is to change the size of protoss buildings while warping in so they receive less damage from explosive units. This way, things like lings, zealots and marines still do the same amount of damage while a cannon is warping in.
I think is an unneeded over-complication.
And cannon rushes are not something that Zerg cannot defend against. They get to scout it instantly, there are multiple ways to get out of it.
I think the only real solution is a single-target change and in order for that to work it cannot be for a unit since those have an effect on all aspects of the game state and also other match-ups.
There are two good options:
- cannon build time - cannon increased shield/armor when finished at least 50%
These are limited buffs that do not affect Zerg except in stopping them having too many early all-ins and semi-allins, which no one likes at a competitive level.
Pick whichever option is best against Zerg and not too dominating against Vultures and you have a win.
People are underestimating how much more difficult having decent maps for P against Z is.
I don't see how the first option doesn't led canon rushing being absolutely brutal. And the second option seems more convoluted than my suggestion. It's literally just changing the unit size of the building while warping in.
Define brutal. Making zerg build a couple of lings early is not "brutal". Sometimes I get the feeling we have a Stockholm Syndrome going around when it comes to balance changes. Of course the other side has to adjust, that's the whole point.
On October 28 2025 15:42 konadora wrote: balance cannot and will not happen to BW. the only way things will move forward are with creative new builds that have been prevalent throughout key balance turning points in the history of BW (FD, Bisu Build, Fantasy Build, Mech Switch, etc) and maps.
Those creative builds don't seem to be happening in PvZ anytime soon. As a matter of fact, 20 years to a T. Is that large enough of a sample?
For the record. Not a single protoss was eliminated by zerg in the round of 16
in the round of 8 from 3 zergs only 1 survived. Mini was eliminated by a terran with an insane proxy barracks all in that was luck enough to be placed next to his base. Could have been 3 protoss in semis. We got 2 of them. No only that but Bisu was so close to make it to the finals if it wasnt for the failed zealot block to his sim city. Yet we are talking about all that bs.
Imbalanced yeah..
We should be praising Soma an amateur player for making history and here we are complaining about him abusing x stuff. When in reality is just him putting the time in to master areas from the game and optimizations that no a single zerg is close to that. Honestly is sad.
On October 28 2025 22:51 Simplistik wrote: We'd need a proper translation, but unlucky can be many things. Spawning positions, build orders, scouting patterns...
Unlucky when I was a child, I didn't realize my race not good.
EPT
![[image loading]](https://imgur.com/a/vJ0RDCV)
