On October 29 2025 08:12 sc2turtlepants wrote: Spitting facts here. I mean look at game 5 - Snow was on top of his shit that game, made cannons to stop the hydras, soma immediately goes back into droning (which is supposed to be THE unstoppable zerg counter to cannon-making according to some in this thread) and then Z dies 5 minutes later.
Terrible read of the game. See if people can't assess the state of these games properly, the discussion is going nowhere because of misunderstanding after misunderstanding.
Firstly, in game 5 (Metropolis) and game 2 (Dominator), BOTH TIMES Snow put down 4 cannons on top of the 2 he already had. So how come you accuse him of greed in game 2 and but praise him in game 5?
Secondly, and more importantly, you are not aware of how far Snow was ahead in game 5. He got away with 12 Nexus, then the same 4-zealot pressure this time worked way better than game 2 (because Soma's Lings were way out of position): drones being pull left and right, better trade with lings, even got a couple of drones. That put Snow in a position where he can afford a bit more caution, especially when it was match point. But even so, he still put down the same amount of cannons he put in game 2, and he cancelled 1 later! After that, the DT at Soma's 3rd base put him even more behind, which led to the kill 5 minutes later like you said (also 5 mins is a long time in BW).
I'm so sad I missed streaming the finals live (and voting in the LB), but that was a certainly a series. Congrats to Soma, his grind is real and he was playing on another level throughout the whole tourney. It's really interesting to compare the kinds of ZvPs Soma lost playing Best, Bisu, and Snow. Bisu had good timings and control going for natural busts that Snow didn't replicate (or Soma was better prepared after the Ro4).
Back to cheering for Barracks in ASL21 It'll be interesting if Flash feels like he can finally join in again.
On October 29 2025 04:53 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: if pvz is so unfavored how comes last 5 seasons it has come to a single zerg doing all the job ?
It's 2, not 1. And Hero was denied by Soulkey himself. So it's 3. Larva and Queen (x2) also won before. In the last 12 seasons, it's 8 Zerg titles and 4 different champions. Overall in ASL history, the only tier 1 Zerg who hasn't won is Hero, who was also runner-up twice (Action and JD can't be considered tier 1). So how many more do you want so they can all do the job?
Plus, you realize your first and second statements aren't really related right? Are there only two races and one matchup? Could it possibly be that some Zergs were eliminated by Terran and Zerg themselves? Larva, Soma, and Effort were all inactive before this season lol. Is that because of PvZ? For the ones who did play, just this season: Soulkey died to Barracks and Effort, Hero choked to Royal and BTS. Last season: Hero died to Rush, JD to Light. Is that Protoss' fault?
I said it many times already: it's not one or two results over 1 or 2 seasons that matters. It's the manner a player lose/win in some certain games that matters. If all PvZ's are like the Knockout one this time, or the Snow vs Soulkey on Blitzy a while ago, I would never have any complaint about PvZ.
On October 29 2025 08:12 sc2turtlepants wrote: Spitting facts here. I mean look at game 5 - Snow was on top of his shit that game, made cannons to stop the hydras, soma immediately goes back into droning (which is supposed to be THE unstoppable zerg counter to cannon-making according to some in this thread) and then Z dies 5 minutes later.
Terrible read of the game. See if people can't assess the state of these games properly, the discussion is going nowhere because of misunderstanding after misunderstanding.
Firstly, in game 5 (Metropolis) and game 2 (Dominator), BOTH TIMES Snow put down 4 cannons on top of the 2 he already had. So how come you accuse him of greed in game 2 and but praise him in game 5?
Secondly, and more importantly, you are not aware of how far Snow was ahead in game 5. He got away with 12 Nexus, then the same 4-zealot pressure this time worked way better than game 2 (because Soma's Lings were way out of position): drones being pull left and right, better trade with lings, even got a couple of drones. That put Snow in a position where he can afford a bit more caution, especially when it was match point. But even so, he still put down the same amount of cannons he put in game 2, and he cancelled 1 later! After that, the DT at Soma's 3rd base put him even more behind, which led to the kill 5 minutes later like you said (also 5 mins is a long time in BW).
You lose 4 zealots like he did, see a hydra pop, you know you are dying if you don't instantly throw down 4 cannons, which he most certainly did not do. Can Zerg fake and go back to droning? Sure. But you're fkn dead if he just goes hydras. Bisu literally showed P can win from behind. Take the small loss and play from behind. Or take the game loss... shrug.
Guess what happens when Zerg fks up his muta micro and loses mutas? Terran A moves and Zerg dies, or you throw up 3-4 sunks.
Guess what happens when T fks up his early timing attack, he turtles or dies while P gets 2 more Nexus.
You refuse to accept that the entire game is played on a razor's edge, just for some reason hydra bust shouldn't require the correct response.
If you watch the replay in the VOD after losing his last zealot and seeing a hydra, he makes another 10 probes, for a total of 52 vs 29 drones. If that's not greed I don't know what fucking is. He's LITERALLY MAKING PROBES while hydras are killing his base.
On October 29 2025 02:36 Barneyk wrote: It is still hard to grasp how JYJ and Royal has ASL wins when Best, Bisu, Snow, Hero doesn't lol.
add soma to that list of fraud champions
won with 2 hydra busts and 2 fake hydra busts into get super ahead fucking bullshit
How could you forget shuttle? -Add him to the long line of fraud champions, but in fact true heroes. I mean, why do we need more than one title? PS: I admit, I enjoyed ASL seasons with fraud champions more.
On October 29 2025 08:12 sc2turtlepants wrote: Spitting facts here. I mean look at game 5 - Snow was on top of his shit that game, made cannons to stop the hydras, soma immediately goes back into droning (which is supposed to be THE unstoppable zerg counter to cannon-making according to some in this thread) and then Z dies 5 minutes later.
Terrible read of the game. See if people can't assess the state of these games properly, the discussion is going nowhere because of misunderstanding after misunderstanding.
Firstly, in game 5 (Metropolis) and game 2 (Dominator), BOTH TIMES Snow put down 4 cannons on top of the 2 he already had. So how come you accuse him of greed in game 2 and but praise him in game 5?
Secondly, and more importantly, you are not aware of how far Snow was ahead in game 5. He got away with 12 Nexus, then the same 4-zealot pressure this time worked way better than game 2 (because Soma's Lings were way out of position): drones being pull left and right, better trade with lings, even got a couple of drones. That put Snow in a position where he can afford a bit more caution, especially when it was match point. But even so, he still put down the same amount of cannons he put in game 2, and he cancelled 1 later! After that, the DT at Soma's 3rd base put him even more behind, which led to the kill 5 minutes later like you said (also 5 mins is a long time in BW).
You lose 4 zealots like he did, see a hydra pop, you know you are dying if you don't instantly throw down 4 cannons, which he most certainly did not do. Can Zerg fake and go back to droning? Sure. But you're fkn dead if he just goes hydras. Bisu literally showed P can win from behind. Take the small loss and play from behind. Or take the game loss... shrug.
Guess what happens when Zerg fks up his muta micro and loses mutas? Terran A moves and Zerg dies, or you throw up 3-4 sunks.
Guess what happens when T fks up his early timing attack, he turtles or dies while P gets 2 more Nexus.
You refuse to accept that the entire game is played on a razor's edge, just for some reason hydra bust shouldn't require the correct response.
If you watch the replay in the VOD after losing his last zealot and seeing a hydra, he makes another 10 probes, for a total of 52 vs 29 drones. If that's not greed I don't know what fucking is. He's LITERALLY MAKING PROBES while hydras are killing his base.
your comparisons to muta or early terran fact timings just show you dont understand the critical point tmnt is making when it comes to pvz.
up to 11 mutas in tvz isnt an all in. depending on the games, even spawning more mutas to sustain a full control group is still not considered an all in. terran putting up 6 turrets in base isnt an over investment in defense. the game state is fairly even and more importantly, terran knows the mutas are coming thanks to scans.
terran early fact pushes (eg. 2 fact) are considered all in. if it fails, terran is supposed to lose because their econ is behind and turtling is just a prayer. also, its much easier to tell when an early rush is coming. a probe scout may see gas and know its a fact opening, you might see a high marine count, or at worst your dragoons will meet the push coming out and you give yourself as much time to react while microing dragoons to chip away at terran units' hp.
for pvz however, hydra busts have enough firepower to outright kill you just like any other all in, except if it fails, zerg can still eco off the back of it. theres no definitive way to know whether zerg is producing hydras or not until your first corsair comes out, and by then the hydras are already walking towards your base. the issue is the fact that protoss has to play completely blind to zerg's build and either react late after scouting with corsairs, or take a guess out of 3 options (hydra, muta, econ). the problem isnt that protoss has to build cannons to defend hydras. the problem is that its difficult to even optimally defend because its straight up impossible to know if its coming until your corsair comes out unless the zerg fucks up and lets you scout for free, and EVEN if you defend optimally youre at best only slightly ahead of zerg because of the massive amount of resources you had to put down in static defense and the high likelihood that your forge got destroyed and your upgrades are late now anyway. the cherry on top is you completely stop corsair production once you see hydras because you dont have money for corsairs, and so now at any given point in the game zerg has the option to make 7 mutas if they wish and go around sniping your only hope for victory for free (your hts).
if we go even deeper into the pvz mind games, protoss has to be careful not to throw down 4-5 cannons at once when he scouts the first hydras. assuming protoss already has 2 cannons up, the optimal number of cannons you want at the earliest timing for hydras is 4, meaning you only spawn in 2 cannons at the beginning. from there you put down more cannons if you see with your corsairs that zerg is continuing to spawn hydras. if you immediately invest in up to 5-6 cannons from the very beginning, zergs just fake the bust, settle for breaking the gate/forge and just drone up immediately. if you fail to continue to scout with your sair or any other unit whether zerg is reinforcing the initial group of hydras, you risk dying to a bust because you only put down 4 cannons or investing in the extra cannons only to find out that zerg had droned up instead.
all of the priority in the early game is with zerg and the worst part about is how blind protoss has to be in dealing with all of that while zerg gets to do whatever he pleases with very little risk.
On October 29 2025 08:12 sc2turtlepants wrote: Spitting facts here. I mean look at game 5 - Snow was on top of his shit that game, made cannons to stop the hydras, soma immediately goes back into droning (which is supposed to be THE unstoppable zerg counter to cannon-making according to some in this thread) and then Z dies 5 minutes later.
Terrible read of the game. See if people can't assess the state of these games properly, the discussion is going nowhere because of misunderstanding after misunderstanding.
Firstly, in game 5 (Metropolis) and game 2 (Dominator), BOTH TIMES Snow put down 4 cannons on top of the 2 he already had. So how come you accuse him of greed in game 2 and but praise him in game 5?
Secondly, and more importantly, you are not aware of how far Snow was ahead in game 5. He got away with 12 Nexus, then the same 4-zealot pressure this time worked way better than game 2 (because Soma's Lings were way out of position): drones being pull left and right, better trade with lings, even got a couple of drones. That put Snow in a position where he can afford a bit more caution, especially when it was match point. But even so, he still put down the same amount of cannons he put in game 2, and he cancelled 1 later! After that, the DT at Soma's 3rd base put him even more behind, which led to the kill 5 minutes later like you said (also 5 mins is a long time in BW).
You lose 4 zealots like he did, see a hydra pop, you know you are dying if you don't instantly throw down 4 cannons, which he most certainly did not do. Can Zerg fake and go back to droning? Sure. But you're fkn dead if he just goes hydras. Bisu literally showed P can win from behind. Take the small loss and play from behind. Or take the game loss... shrug.
Guess what happens when Zerg fks up his muta micro and loses mutas? Terran A moves and Zerg dies, or you throw up 3-4 sunks.
Guess what happens when T fks up his early timing attack, he turtles or dies while P gets 2 more Nexus.
You refuse to accept that the entire game is played on a razor's edge, just for some reason hydra bust shouldn't require the correct response.
If you watch the replay in the VOD after losing his last zealot and seeing a hydra, he makes another 10 probes, for a total of 52 vs 29 drones. If that's not greed I don't know what fucking is. He's LITERALLY MAKING PROBES while hydras are killing his base.
your comparisons to muta or early terran fact timings just show you dont understand the critical point tmnt is making when it comes to pvz.
up to 11 mutas in tvz isnt an all in. depending on the games, even spawning more mutas to sustain a full control group is still not considered an all in. terran putting up 6 turrets in base isnt an over investment in defense. the game state is fairly even and more importantly, terran knows the mutas are coming thanks to scans.
terran early fact pushes (eg. 2 fact) are considered all in. if it fails, terran is supposed to lose because their econ is behind and turtling is just a prayer. also, its much easier to tell when an early rush is coming. a probe scout may see gas and know its a fact opening, you might see a high marine count, or at worst your dragoons will meet the push coming out and you give yourself as much time to react while microing dragoons to chip away at terran units' hp.
for pvz however, hydra busts have enough firepower to outright kill you just like any other all in, except if it fails, zerg can still eco off the back of it. theres no definitive way to know whether zerg is producing hydras or not until your first corsair comes out, and by then the hydras are already walking towards your base. the issue is the fact that protoss has to play completely blind to zerg's build and either react late after scouting with corsairs, or take a guess out of 3 options (hydra, muta, econ). the problem isnt that protoss has to build cannons to defend hydras. the problem is that its difficult to even optimally defend because its straight up impossible to know if its coming until your corsair comes out unless the zerg fucks up and lets you scout for free, and EVEN if you defend optimally youre at best only slightly ahead of zerg because of the massive amount of resources you had to put down in static defense and the high likelihood that your forge got destroyed and your upgrades are late now anyway. the cherry on top is you completely stop corsair production once you see hydras because you dont have money for corsairs, and so now at any given point in the game zerg has the option to make 7 mutas if they wish and go around sniping your only hope for victory for free (your hts).
if we go even deeper into the pvz mind games, protoss has to be careful not to throw down 4-5 cannons at once when he scouts the first hydras. assuming protoss already has 2 cannons up, the optimal number of cannons you want at the earliest timing for hydras is 4, meaning you only spawn in 2 cannons at the beginning. from there you put down more cannons if you see with your corsairs that zerg is continuing to spawn hydras. if you immediately invest in up to 5-6 cannons from the very beginning, zergs just fake the bust, settle for breaking the gate/forge and just drone up immediately. if you fail to continue to scout with your sair or any other unit whether zerg is reinforcing the initial group of hydras, you risk dying to a bust because you only put down 4 cannons or investing in the extra cannons only to find out that zerg had droned up instead.
all of the priority in the early game is with zerg and the worst part about is how blind protoss has to be in dealing with all of that while zerg gets to do whatever he pleases with very little risk.
This shit hurt to read, I kept getting PTSD flashbacks. Keeping your first Probe alive in Zerg's base until Sair, having to check nat gas timing while doing so, having to grind in multitask trainer to do it. Having to go double scout because of the sheer amount of Pool-first builds at the start of a ladder season. Losing your Probe and seeing Hydra Den with its dying breath and then they cancel and go Lair and you look like a fucking moron when they catch you going Cannons at the nat Pylon.
In your opinion, going forward, what are the maps that at least came close to accounting for PvZ early game (without breaking the other two matchups of course), that mapmakers should revisit and implement some of the ideas?
Do you think KNOCKOUT has done a good enough job at least, being the "modern Circuit Breaker"?
On October 29 2025 04:53 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: if pvz is so unfavored how comes last 5 seasons it has come to a single zerg doing all the job ?
Remember when 973 reached an 80% WR in the hands of queen and everyone screamed that the build destroyed zerg vs protoss ? How many times 973 was used in semis or finals ? How comes Jaedong and Effort and Hero And Queen arent using the so called unbeatable builds that you all claim Soma uses and are unstoppable ? When are we going to actually take player peformance as factor in a freaking Final ? Never i guess. Yo that is so easy. so each season we got like x number of protoss x number of zergs and terrans. And then we got a round of 8 most of the time with 2 zergs and for some crazy reason zvp is busted. Yeah sure. I always found interesting that we keep shittin on players doing a whole amazing season and then we end up with balance claims. So why the hell arent we getting each season a zerg vs zerg final. or 4-5 zerg in the round of 8.
TMNT you dont play starcraft. So telling you how to hold those builds first of all is going to be useless cuz you are not going to agree with it. Second After all the energy i wasted explaining The Queen vs Shuttle situation and how people werent giving enough credit to shuttle i told myself i will no waste such energy on TL again.
well the best what you can do it is just not answer. Basically people are here crazy when they say anything is imba after the Bisu vs soma series they are just cleary dont understand the game and here beucase of own frustrating nothing else as always. i think u figured out when any zerg progamer lost a game vs any protoss progamer( doesnt really matter skill and etc He just write 4 pages what zerg did wrong, when zerg win its just simply zerg so imba ) What do you want do with a person like that?
Queue the balance whine but the truth is Snow’s PvZ is good but still not polished enough to deal with Soma’s aggression and tricks. Protoss definitely can beat Zerg as seen in the Ro4 where Bisu played extremely well but choked in key moments especially that last game.
On October 29 2025 04:53 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: if pvz is so unfavored how comes last 5 seasons it has come to a single zerg doing all the job ?
It's 2, not 1. And Hero was denied by Soulkey himself. So it's 3. Larva and Queen (x2) also won before. In the last 12 seasons, it's 8 Zerg titles and 4 different champions. Overall in ASL history, the only tier 1 Zerg who hasn't won is Hero, who was also runner-up twice (Action and JD can't be considered tier 1). So how many more do you want so they can all do the job?
Plus, you realize your first and second statements aren't really related right? Are there only two races and one matchup? Could it possibly be that some Zergs were eliminated by Terran and Zerg themselves? Larva, Soma, and Effort were all inactive before this season lol. Is that because of PvZ? For the ones who did play, just this season: Soulkey died to Barracks and Effort, Hero choked to Royal and BTS. Last season: Hero died to Rush, JD to Light. Is that Protoss' fault?
I said it many times already: it's not one or two results over 1 or 2 seasons that matters. It's the manner a player lose/win in some certain games that matters. If all PvZ's are like the Knockout one this time, or the Snow vs Soulkey on Blitzy a while ago, I would never have any complaint about PvZ.
Bisu choked if not it would have been a PvP finals. PvZ is problematic but no where near as bad as some people make it out to be. I would argue TvZ is in a worst state at the top level, even Light is having trouble in the matchup. PvZ is at 56.5% for ASL 20 while TvZ is at 25%!
Also somehow Protoss can’t win on roaring currents which theoretically is Protoss favoured, you have Bisu building flying units but omitting psy storm, and you have Snow treating the matchup like a land map and made dragoons and zealots to just sit around.
On October 29 2025 04:53 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: if pvz is so unfavored how comes last 5 seasons it has come to a single zerg doing all the job ?
It's 2, not 1. And Hero was denied by Soulkey himself. So it's 3. Larva and Queen (x2) also won before. In the last 12 seasons, it's 8 Zerg titles and 4 different champions. Overall in ASL history, the only tier 1 Zerg who hasn't won is Hero, who was also runner-up twice (Action and JD can't be considered tier 1). So how many more do you want so they can all do the job?
Plus, you realize your first and second statements aren't really related right? Are there only two races and one matchup? Could it possibly be that some Zergs were eliminated by Terran and Zerg themselves? Larva, Soma, and Effort were all inactive before this season lol. Is that because of PvZ? For the ones who did play, just this season: Soulkey died to Barracks and Effort, Hero choked to Royal and BTS. Last season: Hero died to Rush, JD to Light. Is that Protoss' fault?
I said it many times already: it's not one or two results over 1 or 2 seasons that matters. It's the manner a player lose/win in some certain games that matters. If all PvZ's are like the Knockout one this time, or the Snow vs Soulkey on Blitzy a while ago, I would never have any complaint about PvZ.
Larva doing it doesnt change too much still represent one individual winning the championship. There is a reason i didnt include hero on it.
Do you see 4 protoss players in this bracket. Guess what. Hero didnt play any of them. Protoss and terran eliminated 2 protoss while SK eliminated the other 2. Beating meaning 3-2 and Snow that historically a trash pvz player 4-2. Yeah Snow is trash at pvz. And was even trasher back then. And his WR is 38% vs Soma. Let it wraps. Dont you love stats ? 38% 38%. No one in the freakin world would expect a guy with 38% to beat his opponent apart from you. Why the hell arent we seeing a fucll bracket of zergs instead of seeing JD QUeen actions etc being eliminated and playing zerg vs zerg finals ? But no we are here arguing that a guy with 38% is losing cuz he doesnt know how to scout. You know whats funny ? The other day Jadong played vs SNow on Dominator. Jaedong went with a huge drop while attacking SNow third. Snow without any scouting no info nothing. SPlit all his zealots to third while sedning all the dragoons to the main blindly. When Jaedong saw the rep he asked the chat how the hell he knew about drop ? . So on top of SNow being a shocker. A trash pvz player. Also terrible vs Soma with a 38% wr he is also a terrible offline player. And is not something new. Snow online is almost godlike. Offline has been mediocre for years. DO you remember when he had a 97% WR vs Royal ? Then he played in ASL for elimination and droped the ball like always and got eliminated ? Haha yeah. Keep crying about the stuff you cry.
PD_ is the last time i answer to anything on TL atm cuz i have an eye infection and this website doesnt have a dark mode..
On October 29 2025 04:53 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: if pvz is so unfavored how comes last 5 seasons it has come to a single zerg doing all the job ?
It's 2, not 1. And Hero was denied by Soulkey himself. So it's 3. Larva and Queen (x2) also won before. In the last 12 seasons, it's 8 Zerg titles and 4 different champions. Overall in ASL history, the only tier 1 Zerg who hasn't won is Hero, who was also runner-up twice (Action and JD can't be considered tier 1). So how many more do you want so they can all do the job?
Plus, you realize your first and second statements aren't really related right? Are there only two races and one matchup? Could it possibly be that some Zergs were eliminated by Terran and Zerg themselves? Larva, Soma, and Effort were all inactive before this season lol. Is that because of PvZ? For the ones who did play, just this season: Soulkey died to Barracks and Effort, Hero choked to Royal and BTS. Last season: Hero died to Rush, JD to Light. Is that Protoss' fault?
I said it many times already: it's not one or two results over 1 or 2 seasons that matters. It's the manner a player lose/win in some certain games that matters. If all PvZ's are like the Knockout one this time, or the Snow vs Soulkey on Blitzy a while ago, I would never have any complaint about PvZ.
Bisu choked if not it would have been a PvP finals. PvZ is problematic but no where near as bad as some people make it out to be. I would argue TvZ is in a worst state at the top level, even Light is having trouble in the matchup. PvZ is at 56.5% for ASL 20 while TvZ is at 25%!
Also somehow Protoss can’t win on roaring currents which theoretically is Protoss favoured, you have Bisu building flying units but omitting psy storm, and you have Snow treating the matchup like a land map and made dragoons and zealots to just sit around.
I have one objection: snow didn't play like it is a ground map. He made reavers, corsairs, zealots and dragoons. What he should have done might seem like more ground based like what he makes at the end of this map. Though, it is still not polished enough. He still carried through with corsairs. You have to hit the zerg right before it can spread to the islands to ensure a ground based victory.
Honestly I think his style is hurting him here in a BO7 format. You feel it in every game that he gravitates to getting into the lategame grindy w aoe units mode, and Soma read and exploited it perfectly in almost every game. Making sure that the road to get into that stage was very hard.
Imo. there is hope for Protoss in ASL with someone like Bisu who can add more aggro and unpredictability in a series. Or if Snow adds some more of the other Protoss style into his play. I think a super-archon of Snow/Bisu/Best playing style would probably be SoulKey level. So if they adopt more of each others' strengths, there is hope.
On October 29 2025 04:53 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: if pvz is so unfavored how comes last 5 seasons it has come to a single zerg doing all the job ?
It's 2, not 1. And Hero was denied by Soulkey himself. So it's 3. Larva and Queen (x2) also won before. In the last 12 seasons, it's 8 Zerg titles and 4 different champions. Overall in ASL history, the only tier 1 Zerg who hasn't won is Hero, who was also runner-up twice (Action and JD can't be considered tier 1). So how many more do you want so they can all do the job?
Plus, you realize your first and second statements aren't really related right? Are there only two races and one matchup? Could it possibly be that some Zergs were eliminated by Terran and Zerg themselves? Larva, Soma, and Effort were all inactive before this season lol. Is that because of PvZ? For the ones who did play, just this season: Soulkey died to Barracks and Effort, Hero choked to Royal and BTS. Last season: Hero died to Rush, JD to Light. Is that Protoss' fault?
I said it many times already: it's not one or two results over 1 or 2 seasons that matters. It's the manner a player lose/win in some certain games that matters. If all PvZ's are like the Knockout one this time, or the Snow vs Soulkey on Blitzy a while ago, I would never have any complaint about PvZ.
Bisu choked if not it would have been a PvP finals. PvZ is problematic but no where near as bad as some people make it out to be. I would argue TvZ is in a worst state at the top level, even Light is having trouble in the matchup. PvZ is at 56.5% for ASL 20 while TvZ is at 25%!
Also somehow Protoss can’t win on roaring currents which theoretically is Protoss favoured, you have Bisu building flying units but omitting psy storm, and you have Snow treating the matchup like a land map and made dragoons and zealots to just sit around.
Roaring Currents is not theoretically P favored. You just got your theory wrong. Probably because most people just see "ahh island, must be Protoss favored". We even have a Zerg supporter here (Zeev I think), who has detailed why it's actually Z favored. You think we can all here think "what if I add this unit or that unit in the mix" and pros can't? They probably have tested those ideas many times behind the stream and they just didn't work out, most likely because you can't afford everything at once. Notice how Bisu got into a Corsair Carrier fleet and only had like 2 Reavers and 1 Zealot on the ground for the majority of the game?
Again, you can't use the "what if... could have been" argument. Did I just not point out that Soma also "choked" in the Dominator game otherwise it would have been 4-1 to him? You can't lay down a hypothetical situation and use it as evidence to support your argument.
Also TvZ has its problems too, but not in the direction you think. It's actually T favored. You can't take the win rate of a single ASL, or even multiple ASLs, as evidence of matchup imbalances, because of (a) sample size and (b) the format of the tournament.
Here's an example to demonstrate why: if you only have Bonyth and Dewalt as Protoss in a BSL tournament, the win rate of P will be close to 100% lol. Then if you add you and me in it, the win rate goes down to 80% or something (because we will play way less games than Bonyth and Dewalt). So that 100 or 80% win rate can't be indications that Protoss is OP.
Now look at this ASL: we only have the usual top 4 Ps, plus Stork and Paralyze as cannon fodders in Ro24, so the amount of times a top tier P beats a lower tier Z or T is way more than the reverse case. That's actually what happened in the Snow vs Effort and Bisu vs Larva matchup. As good as Effort and Larva are, they are still in the tier 1.5 (top of K League, bottom half of Major Proleague) and can't compare with the likes of Soulkey, Soma, Hero, even Queen (at least as of now, as they just have returned this season). So you got 4-1 and 4-1.
On October 29 2025 04:53 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: if pvz is so unfavored how comes last 5 seasons it has come to a single zerg doing all the job ?
It's 2, not 1. And Hero was denied by Soulkey himself. So it's 3. Larva and Queen (x2) also won before. In the last 12 seasons, it's 8 Zerg titles and 4 different champions. Overall in ASL history, the only tier 1 Zerg who hasn't won is Hero, who was also runner-up twice (Action and JD can't be considered tier 1). So how many more do you want so they can all do the job?
Plus, you realize your first and second statements aren't really related right? Are there only two races and one matchup? Could it possibly be that some Zergs were eliminated by Terran and Zerg themselves? Larva, Soma, and Effort were all inactive before this season lol. Is that because of PvZ? For the ones who did play, just this season: Soulkey died to Barracks and Effort, Hero choked to Royal and BTS. Last season: Hero died to Rush, JD to Light. Is that Protoss' fault?
I said it many times already: it's not one or two results over 1 or 2 seasons that matters. It's the manner a player lose/win in some certain games that matters. If all PvZ's are like the Knockout one this time, or the Snow vs Soulkey on Blitzy a while ago, I would never have any complaint about PvZ.
Larva doing it doesnt change too much still represent one individual winning the championship. There is a reason i didnt include hero on it.
Do you see 4 protoss players in this bracket. Guess what. Hero didnt play any of them. Protoss and terran eliminated 2 protoss while SK eliminated the other 2. Beating meaning 3-2 and Snow that historically a trash pvz player 4-2. Yeah Snow is trash at pvz. And was even trasher back then. And his WR is 38% vs Soma. Let it wraps. Dont you love stats ? 38% 38%. No one in the freakin world would expect a guy with 38% to beat his opponent apart from you. Why the hell arent we seeing a fucll bracket of zergs instead of seeing JD QUeen actions etc being eliminated and playing zerg vs zerg finals ? But no we are here arguing that a guy with 38% is losing cuz he doesnt know how to scout. You know whats funny ? The other day Jadong played vs SNow on Dominator. Jaedong went with a huge drop while attacking SNow third. Snow without any scouting no info nothing. SPlit all his zealots to third while sedning all the dragoons to the main blindly. When Jaedong saw the rep he asked the chat how the hell he knew about drop ? . So on top of SNow being a shocker. A trash pvz player. Also terrible vs Soma with a 38% wr he is also a terrible offline player. And is not something new. Snow online is almost godlike. Offline has been mediocre for years. DO you remember when he had a 97% WR vs Royal ? Then he played in ASL for elimination and droped the ball like always and got eliminated ? Haha yeah. Keep crying about the stuff you cry.
PD_ is the last time i answer to anything on TL atm cuz i have an eye infection and this website doesnt have a dark mode..
Are you fucking kidding me? I literally broke down to you in a previous post that the 38% is the life time win rate but the win rate vs post-military Soma is 47%.
What kind of argument is this? It's like "Bob weighs 50kg", "No it was 3 years ago, now he weighs 75kg and can take on his opponent", "No look, he weighs 50kg". It's mental.
It's so frustrating that many people just don't get facts straight or don't have a solid methodology to their reasoning in these conversations. You the leading figure of it. But to be honest, this post from you feels like a rage bait troll post more than anything, from a self-confessed "Protoss hater" (your word not mine), that I wouldn't bother reading the rest of the post. Snow a trash PvZ player ? Yeah I would agree if we're talking about prior season 15 or something lol. But after that? Absolutely troll post.
Funny you used him beating Effort 4-1 to show that "Snow all good, Protoss all good", then when the narrative has to be spinned into "Snow's trash", you manipulated a stat to prove. So basically, whatever that suits your agenda.
On October 29 2025 08:12 sc2turtlepants wrote: Spitting facts here. I mean look at game 5 - Snow was on top of his shit that game, made cannons to stop the hydras, soma immediately goes back into droning (which is supposed to be THE unstoppable zerg counter to cannon-making according to some in this thread) and then Z dies 5 minutes later.
Terrible read of the game. See if people can't assess the state of these games properly, the discussion is going nowhere because of misunderstanding after misunderstanding.
Firstly, in game 5 (Metropolis) and game 2 (Dominator), BOTH TIMES Snow put down 4 cannons on top of the 2 he already had. So how come you accuse him of greed in game 2 and but praise him in game 5?
Secondly, and more importantly, you are not aware of how far Snow was ahead in game 5. He got away with 12 Nexus, then the same 4-zealot pressure this time worked way better than game 2 (because Soma's Lings were way out of position): drones being pull left and right, better trade with lings, even got a couple of drones. That put Snow in a position where he can afford a bit more caution, especially when it was match point. But even so, he still put down the same amount of cannons he put in game 2, and he cancelled 1 later! After that, the DT at Soma's 3rd base put him even more behind, which led to the kill 5 minutes later like you said (also 5 mins is a long time in BW).
You lose 4 zealots like he did, see a hydra pop, you know you are dying if you don't instantly throw down 4 cannons, which he most certainly did not do. Can Zerg fake and go back to droning? Sure. But you're fkn dead if he just goes hydras. Bisu literally showed P can win from behind. Take the small loss and play from behind. Or take the game loss... shrug.
Guess what happens when Zerg fks up his muta micro and loses mutas? Terran A moves and Zerg dies, or you throw up 3-4 sunks.
Guess what happens when T fks up his early timing attack, he turtles or dies while P gets 2 more Nexus.
You refuse to accept that the entire game is played on a razor's edge, just for some reason hydra bust shouldn't require the correct response.
If you watch the replay in the VOD after losing his last zealot and seeing a hydra, he makes another 10 probes, for a total of 52 vs 29 drones. If that's not greed I don't know what fucking is. He's LITERALLY MAKING PROBES while hydras are killing his base.
He put down the other two cannons after your screenshot. When the bust started, he had 4 cannons ready with 3 more warping. I think that's a fair amount. You see that amount very often in every Hydra bust defense. I can agree that he should have stopped making probes after seeing the hydra in front of his base though.
Bisu the other day also had 4 cannons and 2 zealots with only 1 warping, at 46 probes and his 2 Nexus were blinking too, but the situation was different, it was later in the game with a Hydra switch after Muta.
When did I refuse to accept that the game is played on a razors edge? In fact that's exactly what I would say. That's what they have to do to win at this level, not CPL where they teach you to build extra cannons "just in case". And that's exactly why Snow (and Bisu) played on the thin edge with their number or cannons.
The problem is you're talking from a place of hindsight and you just assume Protoss has to play to perfection just to get to a 50/50 game, or even "take a loss and play from behind" lol. You've just answered yourself right there. Why Protoss has to play like that in the first place? Does Zerg play perfectly?
In other matchups, if you let the worker get in your base, your plan is exposed and it's likely not gonna work. In PvZ, or the Dominator game for example, Soma let the probe slip into his base and saw the Spire, a mistake he shouldn't have made anyway. He didn't play perfectly there. What's the repercussion for that? Nothing. Only in PvZ, one race can see the entire tech of the other and still doesn't know what will be thrown at them. And that thing is not even a harassment tool like a Reaver, it's something that can kill you immediately.
Also note that I never said PvZ unplayable. I would just like you guys to address/acknowledge that information disadvantage. If Zergs play like Soma all the time (building both Spire and Den), Protosses will just blindly put cannons everywhere. But of course they won't and they will keep Protoss guessing. See the problem there? You're not supposed to guess to stay in the game. It's unfair. You should be provided with a reliable tool to defend. If it can't be done via scouting (like seeing what's in the eggs), it has to be done by giving Protoss enough reaction time (like reducing cannon build time, or allowing a repair mechanism like Terran), or by reducing the potency of the bust (high ground nat). Protoss is given nothing.
I asked that question before: if rush distance was reduced and Zerg couldn't get sunkens up when he sees the MM moves out, would you call that unfair? I would, and I would demand a change for Zerg to be not at that huge disadvantage against Terran.
On October 29 2025 08:12 sc2turtlepants wrote: Spitting facts here. I mean look at game 5 - Snow was on top of his shit that game, made cannons to stop the hydras, soma immediately goes back into droning (which is supposed to be THE unstoppable zerg counter to cannon-making according to some in this thread) and then Z dies 5 minutes later.
Terrible read of the game. See if people can't assess the state of these games properly, the discussion is going nowhere because of misunderstanding after misunderstanding.
Firstly, in game 5 (Metropolis) and game 2 (Dominator), BOTH TIMES Snow put down 4 cannons on top of the 2 he already had. So how come you accuse him of greed in game 2 and but praise him in game 5?
Secondly, and more importantly, you are not aware of how far Snow was ahead in game 5. He got away with 12 Nexus, then the same 4-zealot pressure this time worked way better than game 2 (because Soma's Lings were way out of position): drones being pull left and right, better trade with lings, even got a couple of drones. That put Snow in a position where he can afford a bit more caution, especially when it was match point. But even so, he still put down the same amount of cannons he put in game 2, and he cancelled 1 later! After that, the DT at Soma's 3rd base put him even more behind, which led to the kill 5 minutes later like you said (also 5 mins is a long time in BW).
You lose 4 zealots like he did, see a hydra pop, you know you are dying if you don't instantly throw down 4 cannons, which he most certainly did not do. Can Zerg fake and go back to droning? Sure. But you're fkn dead if he just goes hydras. Bisu literally showed P can win from behind. Take the small loss and play from behind. Or take the game loss... shrug.
Guess what happens when Zerg fks up his muta micro and loses mutas? Terran A moves and Zerg dies, or you throw up 3-4 sunks.
Guess what happens when T fks up his early timing attack, he turtles or dies while P gets 2 more Nexus.
You refuse to accept that the entire game is played on a razor's edge, just for some reason hydra bust shouldn't require the correct response.
If you watch the replay in the VOD after losing his last zealot and seeing a hydra, he makes another 10 probes, for a total of 52 vs 29 drones. If that's not greed I don't know what fucking is. He's LITERALLY MAKING PROBES while hydras are killing his base.
He put down the other two cannons after your screenshot. When the bust started, he had 4 cannons ready with 3 more warping. I think that's a fair amount. You see that amount very often in every Hydra bust defense. I can agree that he should have stopped making probes after seeing the hydra in front of his base though.
Bisu the other day also had 4 cannons and 2 zealots with only 1 warping, at 46 probes and his 2 Nexus were blinking too, but the situation was different, it was later in the game with a Hydra switch after Muta.
When did I refuse to accept that the game is played on a razors edge? In fact that's exactly what I would say. That's what they have to do to win at this level, not CPL where they teach you to build extra cannons "just in case". And that's exactly why Snow (and Bisu) played on the thin edge with their number or cannons.
The problem is you're talking from a place of hindsight and you just assume Protoss has to play to perfection just to get to a 50/50 game, or even "take a loss and play from behind" lol. You've just answered yourself right there. Why Protoss has to play like that in the first place? Does Zerg play perfectly?
In other matchups, if you let the worker get in your base, your plan is exposed and it's likely not gonna work. In PvZ, or the Dominator game for example, Soma let the probe slip into his base and saw the Spire, a mistake he shouldn't have made anyway. He, didn't play perfectly there. What's the repercussion for that? Nothing. Only in PvZ, one race can see the entire tech of the other and still doesn't know what will be thrown at them. And that thing is not even a harassment tool like a Reaver, it's something that can kill you immediately.
Also note that I never said PvZ unplayable. I would just like you guys to address/acknowledge that information disadvantage. If Zergs play like Soma all the time (building both Spire and Den), Protosses will just blindly put cannons everywhere. But of course they won't and they will keep Protoss guessing. See the problem there? You're not supposed to guess to stay in the game. It's unfair. You should be provided with a reliable tool to defend. If it can't be done via scouting (like seeing what's in the eggs), it has to be done by giving Protoss enough reaction time (like reducing cannon build time, or allowing a repair mechanism like Terran), or by reducing the potency of the bust (high ground nat). Protoss is given nothing.
I asked that question before: if rush distance was reduced and Zerg couldn't get sunkens up when he sees the MM moves out, would you call that unfair? I would, and I would demand a change for Zerg to be not at that huge disadvantage against Terran.
You cannot foil hydra pushes with 1 gate. I just posted a disclaimer on that. I didn't get to use the second hatchery. That was just a placeholder for your second base after the rush is over.
EPT
It'll be interesting if Flash feels like he can finally join in again.![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/PgpLZm9.png)
