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On October 29 2025 12:54 evilfatsh1t wrote:
if we go even deeper into the pvz mind games, protoss has to be careful not to throw down 4-5 cannons at once when he scouts the first hydras. assuming protoss already has 2 cannons up, the optimal number of cannons you want at the earliest timing for hydras is 4, meaning you only spawn in 2 cannons at the beginning. from there you put down more cannons if you see with your corsairs that zerg is continuing to spawn hydras. if you immediately invest in up to 5-6 cannons from the very beginning, zergs just fake the bust, settle for breaking the gate/forge and just drone up immediately. if you fail to continue to scout with your sair or any other unit whether zerg is reinforcing the initial group of hydras, you risk dying to a bust because you only put down 4 cannons or investing in the extra cannons only to find out that zerg had droned up instead.
I feel like this paragraph should be pinned on every thread discussing PvZ. This is clearly astute observations from someone who understands the thin edge of PvZ at the top level.
Our Zerg supporters here either argue based on the experience at their level, or don't watch and understand enough of this matchup at top level in modern time. Like the one guy who suggested Protoss should have 4 HTs with storm at 8th minute (hah).
If the solution is simply "see hydras, put down 4 more cannons", then the amount of times P dies to hydra busts should be similar to the amount of times Z dies to MM bust. It's not. Also, if upon seeing a Support Bay, Terran has to invest ~1000 minerals in Turrets, while losing their Armory for free, then maybe the game is actually balanced, but not by good solution.
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On October 29 2025 17:55 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2025 17:07 Dante08 wrote:On October 29 2025 10:17 TMNT wrote:On October 29 2025 04:53 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
if pvz is so unfavored how comes last 5 seasons it has come to a single zerg doing all the job ? It's 2, not 1. And Hero was denied by Soulkey himself. So it's 3. Larva and Queen (x2) also won before. In the last 12 seasons, it's 8 Zerg titles and 4 different champions. Overall in ASL history, the only tier 1 Zerg who hasn't won is Hero, who was also runner-up twice (Action and JD can't be considered tier 1). So how many more do you want so they can all do the job? Plus, you realize your first and second statements aren't really related right? Are there only two races and one matchup? Could it possibly be that some Zergs were eliminated by Terran and Zerg themselves? Larva, Soma, and Effort were all inactive before this season lol. Is that because of PvZ? For the ones who did play, just this season: Soulkey died to Barracks and Effort, Hero choked to Royal and BTS. Last season: Hero died to Rush, JD to Light. Is that Protoss' fault? I said it many times already: it's not one or two results over 1 or 2 seasons that matters. It's the manner a player lose/win in some certain games that matters. If all PvZ's are like the Knockout one this time, or the Snow vs Soulkey on Blitzy a while ago, I would never have any complaint about PvZ. Bisu choked if not it would have been a PvP finals. PvZ is problematic but no where near as bad as some people make it out to be. I would argue TvZ is in a worst state at the top level, even Light is having trouble in the matchup. PvZ is at 56.5% for ASL 20 while TvZ is at 25%! Also somehow Protoss can’t win on roaring currents which theoretically is Protoss favoured, you have Bisu building flying units but omitting psy storm, and you have Snow treating the matchup like a land map and made dragoons and zealots to just sit around. Roaring Currents is not theoretically P favored. You just got your theory wrong. Probably because most people just see "ahh island, must be Protoss favored". We even have a Zerg supporter here (Zeev I think), who has detailed why it's actually Z favored. You think we can all here think "what if I add this unit or that unit in the mix" and pros can't? They probably have tested those ideas many times behind the stream and they just didn't work out, most likely because you can't afford everything at once. Notice how Bisu got into a Corsair Carrier fleet and only had like 2 Reavers and 1 Zealot on the ground for the majority of the game? Again, you can't use the "what if... could have been" argument. Did I just not point out that Soma also "choked" in the Dominator game otherwise it would have been 4-1 to him? You can't lay down a hypothetical situation and use it as evidence to support your argument. Also TvZ has its problems too, but not in the direction you think. It's actually T favored. You can't take the win rate of a single ASL, or even multiple ASLs, as evidence of matchup imbalances, because of (a) sample size and (b) the format of the tournament. Here's an example to demonstrate why: if you only have Bonyth and Dewalt as Protoss in a BSL tournament, the win rate of P will be close to 100% lol. Then if you add you and me in it, the win rate goes down to 80% or something (because we will play way less games than Bonyth and Dewalt). So that 100 or 80% win rate can't be indications that Protoss is OP. Now look at this ASL: we only have the usual top 4 Ps, plus Stork and Paralyze as cannon fodders in Ro24, so the amount of times a top tier P beats a lower tier Z or T is way more than the reverse case. That's actually what happened in the Snow vs Effort and Bisu vs Larva matchup. As good as Effort and Larva are, they are still in the tier 1.5 (top of K League, bottom half of Major Proleague) and can't compare with the likes of Soulkey, Soma, Hero, even Queen (at least as of now, as they just have returned this season). So you got 4-1 and 4-1.
Maybe Roaring Currents is not theoretically P favoured, but anyone who watched the games would agree the Protosses got out strategized and there were fixed the Protosses could have done to have a better chance of winning.
I’m only talking about the matchups at the highest level (ASL) and the current metagame, where some people would complain PvZ is massively imbalanced but that’s not the case. Terrans recently have struggled equally or even more vs Zerg.
Regarding your last paragraph aren’t you cherry picking stats based on the results of one tournament?
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On October 29 2025 19:22 Dante08 wrote:
Regarding your last paragraph aren’t you cherry picking stats based on the results of one tournament?
No it's literally you who just did it, when you said PvZ and TvZ this ASL are at 56% and 25% therefore P>Z and Z>T.
What I did was explain to you why that 56% and 25% can't be interpreted into anything due to the sample size and format issues. You can say you were cherry picking stats (probably unintentionally) and I just explained to you that's not the correct way to look at it.
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On October 29 2025 19:06 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2025 18:54 TMNT wrote:On October 29 2025 11:57 foxmeep wrote:On October 29 2025 09:50 TMNT wrote:On October 29 2025 08:12 sc2turtlepants wrote:
Spitting facts here. I mean look at game 5 - Snow was on top of his shit that game, made cannons to stop the hydras, soma immediately goes back into droning (which is supposed to be THE unstoppable zerg counter to cannon-making according to some in this thread) and then Z dies 5 minutes later.
Terrible read of the game. See if people can't assess the state of these games properly, the discussion is going nowhere because of misunderstanding after misunderstanding. Firstly, in game 5 (Metropolis) and game 2 (Dominator), BOTH TIMES Snow put down 4 cannons on top of the 2 he already had. So how come you accuse him of greed in game 2 and but praise him in game 5? Secondly, and more importantly, you are not aware of how far Snow was ahead in game 5. He got away with 12 Nexus, then the same 4-zealot pressure this time worked way better than game 2 (because Soma's Lings were way out of position): drones being pull left and right, better trade with lings, even got a couple of drones. That put Snow in a position where he can afford a bit more caution, especially when it was match point. But even so, he still put down the same amount of cannons he put in game 2, and he cancelled 1 later! After that, the DT at Soma's 3rd base put him even more behind, which led to the kill 5 minutes later like you said (also 5 mins is a long time in BW). That's a funny looking 4 extra cannons. https://imgur.com/a/OV5iak7You lose 4 zealots like he did, see a hydra pop, you know you are dying if you don't instantly throw down 4 cannons, which he most certainly did not do. Can Zerg fake and go back to droning? Sure. But you're fkn dead if he just goes hydras. Bisu literally showed P can win from behind. Take the small loss and play from behind. Or take the game loss... shrug. Guess what happens when Zerg fks up his muta micro and loses mutas? Terran A moves and Zerg dies, or you throw up 3-4 sunks. Guess what happens when T fks up his early timing attack, he turtles or dies while P gets 2 more Nexus. You refuse to accept that the entire game is played on a razor's edge, just for some reason hydra bust shouldn't require the correct response. If you watch the replay in the VOD after losing his last zealot and seeing a hydra, he makes another 10 probes, for a total of 52 vs 29 drones. If that's not greed I don't know what fucking is. He's LITERALLY MAKING PROBES while hydras are killing his base. He put down the other two cannons after your screenshot. When the bust started, he had 4 cannons ready with 3 more warping. I think that's a fair amount. You see that amount very often in every Hydra bust defense. I can agree that he should have stopped making probes after seeing the hydra in front of his base though. Bisu the other day also had 4 cannons and 2 zealots with only 1 warping, at 46 probes and his 2 Nexus were blinking too, but the situation was different, it was later in the game with a Hydra switch after Muta. When did I refuse to accept that the game is played on a razors edge? In fact that's exactly what I would say. That's what they have to do to win at this level, not CPL where they teach you to build extra cannons "just in case". And that's exactly why Snow (and Bisu) played on the thin edge with their number or cannons. The problem is you're talking from a place of hindsight and you just assume Protoss has to play to perfection just to get to a 50/50 game, or even "take a loss and play from behind" lol. You've just answered yourself right there. Why Protoss has to play like that in the first place? Does Zerg play perfectly? In other matchups, if you let the worker get in your base, your plan is exposed and it's likely not gonna work. In PvZ, or the Dominator game for example, Soma let the probe slip into his base and saw the Spire, a mistake he shouldn't have made anyway. He, didn't play perfectly there. What's the repercussion for that? Nothing. Only in PvZ, one race can see the entire tech of the other and still doesn't know what will be thrown at them. And that thing is not even a harassment tool like a Reaver, it's something that can kill you immediately. Also note that I never said PvZ unplayable. I would just like you guys to address/acknowledge that information disadvantage. If Zergs play like Soma all the time (building both Spire and Den), Protosses will just blindly put cannons everywhere. But of course they won't and they will keep Protoss guessing. See the problem there? You're not supposed to guess to stay in the game. It's unfair. You should be provided with a reliable tool to defend. If it can't be done via scouting (like seeing what's in the eggs), it has to be done by giving Protoss enough reaction time (like reducing cannon build time, or allowing a repair mechanism like Terran), or by reducing the potency of the bust (high ground nat). Protoss is given nothing. I asked that question before: if rush distance was reduced and Zerg couldn't get sunkens up when he sees the MM moves out, would you call that unfair? I would, and I would demand a change for Zerg to be not at that huge disadvantage against Terran. You cannot foil hydra pushes with 1 gate. I just posted a disclaimer on that. I didn't get to use the second hatchery. That was just a placeholder for your second base after the rush is over.
this post, like 99% of all your posts, makes literally zero sense.
not only is your first sentence ridiculous, because many hydra busts live or die depending on cannon count, not gateway count, but the point about 1 gate has no relevance to anything tmnt said in his post. then you talk about a second hatchery which also makes no sense and has nothing to do with anything. wtf is a 2nd hatchery a placeholder for? wat? just stop posting man
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This is why I’ve never seen Flash as the strongest player in StarCraft history. It’s impossible to tell where his skill ends and Terran’s dominance begins. Best Terran of all time? Yes. Best player? That’s debatable.
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As for PvZ, we’ve already seen the stats: 13 finals over the past 25 years, and Protoss won only one (!). Now, with the BO7 format, things have gotten even worse — it just amplifies the advantage of the stronger race, which is Zerg. Seeing a Protoss champion anytime soon? Don’t hold your breath.
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On October 29 2025 20:17 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2025 19:06 mtcn77 wrote:On October 29 2025 18:54 TMNT wrote:On October 29 2025 11:57 foxmeep wrote:On October 29 2025 09:50 TMNT wrote:On October 29 2025 08:12 sc2turtlepants wrote:
Spitting facts here. I mean look at game 5 - Snow was on top of his shit that game, made cannons to stop the hydras, soma immediately goes back into droning (which is supposed to be THE unstoppable zerg counter to cannon-making according to some in this thread) and then Z dies 5 minutes later.
Terrible read of the game. See if people can't assess the state of these games properly, the discussion is going nowhere because of misunderstanding after misunderstanding. Firstly, in game 5 (Metropolis) and game 2 (Dominator), BOTH TIMES Snow put down 4 cannons on top of the 2 he already had. So how come you accuse him of greed in game 2 and but praise him in game 5? Secondly, and more importantly, you are not aware of how far Snow was ahead in game 5. He got away with 12 Nexus, then the same 4-zealot pressure this time worked way better than game 2 (because Soma's Lings were way out of position): drones being pull left and right, better trade with lings, even got a couple of drones. That put Snow in a position where he can afford a bit more caution, especially when it was match point. But even so, he still put down the same amount of cannons he put in game 2, and he cancelled 1 later! After that, the DT at Soma's 3rd base put him even more behind, which led to the kill 5 minutes later like you said (also 5 mins is a long time in BW). That's a funny looking 4 extra cannons. https://imgur.com/a/OV5iak7You lose 4 zealots like he did, see a hydra pop, you know you are dying if you don't instantly throw down 4 cannons, which he most certainly did not do. Can Zerg fake and go back to droning? Sure. But you're fkn dead if he just goes hydras. Bisu literally showed P can win from behind. Take the small loss and play from behind. Or take the game loss... shrug. Guess what happens when Zerg fks up his muta micro and loses mutas? Terran A moves and Zerg dies, or you throw up 3-4 sunks. Guess what happens when T fks up his early timing attack, he turtles or dies while P gets 2 more Nexus. You refuse to accept that the entire game is played on a razor's edge, just for some reason hydra bust shouldn't require the correct response. If you watch the replay in the VOD after losing his last zealot and seeing a hydra, he makes another 10 probes, for a total of 52 vs 29 drones. If that's not greed I don't know what fucking is. He's LITERALLY MAKING PROBES while hydras are killing his base. He put down the other two cannons after your screenshot. When the bust started, he had 4 cannons ready with 3 more warping. I think that's a fair amount. You see that amount very often in every Hydra bust defense. I can agree that he should have stopped making probes after seeing the hydra in front of his base though. Bisu the other day also had 4 cannons and 2 zealots with only 1 warping, at 46 probes and his 2 Nexus were blinking too, but the situation was different, it was later in the game with a Hydra switch after Muta. When did I refuse to accept that the game is played on a razors edge? In fact that's exactly what I would say. That's what they have to do to win at this level, not CPL where they teach you to build extra cannons "just in case". And that's exactly why Snow (and Bisu) played on the thin edge with their number or cannons. The problem is you're talking from a place of hindsight and you just assume Protoss has to play to perfection just to get to a 50/50 game, or even "take a loss and play from behind" lol. You've just answered yourself right there. Why Protoss has to play like that in the first place? Does Zerg play perfectly? In other matchups, if you let the worker get in your base, your plan is exposed and it's likely not gonna work. In PvZ, or the Dominator game for example, Soma let the probe slip into his base and saw the Spire, a mistake he shouldn't have made anyway. He, didn't play perfectly there. What's the repercussion for that? Nothing. Only in PvZ, one race can see the entire tech of the other and still doesn't know what will be thrown at them. And that thing is not even a harassment tool like a Reaver, it's something that can kill you immediately. Also note that I never said PvZ unplayable. I would just like you guys to address/acknowledge that information disadvantage. If Zergs play like Soma all the time (building both Spire and Den), Protosses will just blindly put cannons everywhere. But of course they won't and they will keep Protoss guessing. See the problem there? You're not supposed to guess to stay in the game. It's unfair. You should be provided with a reliable tool to defend. If it can't be done via scouting (like seeing what's in the eggs), it has to be done by giving Protoss enough reaction time (like reducing cannon build time, or allowing a repair mechanism like Terran), or by reducing the potency of the bust (high ground nat). Protoss is given nothing. I asked that question before: if rush distance was reduced and Zerg couldn't get sunkens up when he sees the MM moves out, would you call that unfair? I would, and I would demand a change for Zerg to be not at that huge disadvantage against Terran. You cannot foil hydra pushes with 1 gate. I just posted a disclaimer on that. I didn't get to use the second hatchery. That was just a placeholder for your second base after the rush is over. this post, like 99% of all your posts, makes literally zero sense. not only is your first sentence ridiculous, because many hydra busts live or die depending on cannon count, not gateway count, but the point about 1 gate has no relevance to anything tmnt said in his post. then you talk about a second hatchery which also makes no sense and has nothing to do with anything. wtf is a 2nd hatchery a placeholder for? wat? just stop posting man
It is from my last post #535 where I discuss a possible equivalent cost army composition. 1 gate can't possibly make enough zealots to thwart a 16 hydralisk push, or can you fight 16 hydralisk with just 6 zealots? I didn't assume you could, zerg would just crush your army. However, I also assumed what if I make the 2nd hatchery in time - that is a wild assumption making the hatchery and spawning pool tech tree simultaneously - you can make 21 hydralisks, not 16. That is how many larvae 2 hatcheries can make. However, in order to make 21 hydralisks, you'd have to spend more minerals and vespene gas, so 16 hydralisk push can finish in a similar timeframe to 11 zealot counter push, but 21 hydralisk cannot. You'd have to start from a bigger economy to finish the 21 hydralisk push, else you need to spend 2925/875, instead of 2450/750 for zerg. 9 drones harvest roughly 620 minerals per minute, so I assume you need more than 4:36 if we trace a straight mining rate. You'd need to start the rush later than 9 drones on minerals which would throw off the timing, like 15 pool instead of 12 pool/hatch if you want to complete in the same 4:36 start to finish time frame and starting from a later point isn't a rush any more. I just assume if it will take more time to harvest for 21 hydralisks, it should be out of the question it can be finished in a similar time frame, because obviously I'm assuming both protoss and zerg have similar drone and probes in trying to outplay each other.
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On October 29 2025 21:12 Maks wrote:
This is why I’ve never seen Flash as the strongest player in StarCraft history. It’s impossible to tell where his skill ends and Terran’s dominance begins. Best Terran of all time? Yes. Best player? That’s debatable.
Ok this has got to be a troll post
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On October 29 2025 19:44 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2025 19:22 Dante08 wrote:
Regarding your last paragraph aren’t you cherry picking stats based on the results of one tournament? No it's literally you who just did it, when you said PvZ and TvZ this ASL are at 56% and 25% therefore P>Z and Z>T. What I did was explain to you why that 56% and 25% can't be interpreted into anything due to the sample size and format issues. You can say you were cherry picking stats (probably unintentionally) and I just explained to you that's not the correct way to look at it.
What I meant was PvZ isn’t as bad as people are making it out to be. Yes it’s a hard matchup but at the absolute top level Terrans have been struggling vs Zerg as well. I just highlighted the stats this ASL which I agree is not indicative of balance as a whole but does paint a picture of the current meta.
Anyway if Bisu had pulled probes in game 7 we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.
Imo Snow just didn’t play that well and Soma’s style is a nightmare for him. Snow likes to play stably into mid-late game but Soma kept throwing tricks at him which seriously messed with his mindset. I think he got rattled so bad that even his cannon placement on game 4 was screwed up.
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On October 29 2025 21:36 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2025 20:17 evilfatsh1t wrote:On October 29 2025 19:06 mtcn77 wrote:On October 29 2025 18:54 TMNT wrote:On October 29 2025 11:57 foxmeep wrote:On October 29 2025 09:50 TMNT wrote:On October 29 2025 08:12 sc2turtlepants wrote:
Spitting facts here. I mean look at game 5 - Snow was on top of his shit that game, made cannons to stop the hydras, soma immediately goes back into droning (which is supposed to be THE unstoppable zerg counter to cannon-making according to some in this thread) and then Z dies 5 minutes later.
Terrible read of the game. See if people can't assess the state of these games properly, the discussion is going nowhere because of misunderstanding after misunderstanding. Firstly, in game 5 (Metropolis) and game 2 (Dominator), BOTH TIMES Snow put down 4 cannons on top of the 2 he already had. So how come you accuse him of greed in game 2 and but praise him in game 5? Secondly, and more importantly, you are not aware of how far Snow was ahead in game 5. He got away with 12 Nexus, then the same 4-zealot pressure this time worked way better than game 2 (because Soma's Lings were way out of position): drones being pull left and right, better trade with lings, even got a couple of drones. That put Snow in a position where he can afford a bit more caution, especially when it was match point. But even so, he still put down the same amount of cannons he put in game 2, and he cancelled 1 later! After that, the DT at Soma's 3rd base put him even more behind, which led to the kill 5 minutes later like you said (also 5 mins is a long time in BW). That's a funny looking 4 extra cannons. https://imgur.com/a/OV5iak7You lose 4 zealots like he did, see a hydra pop, you know you are dying if you don't instantly throw down 4 cannons, which he most certainly did not do. Can Zerg fake and go back to droning? Sure. But you're fkn dead if he just goes hydras. Bisu literally showed P can win from behind. Take the small loss and play from behind. Or take the game loss... shrug. Guess what happens when Zerg fks up his muta micro and loses mutas? Terran A moves and Zerg dies, or you throw up 3-4 sunks. Guess what happens when T fks up his early timing attack, he turtles or dies while P gets 2 more Nexus. You refuse to accept that the entire game is played on a razor's edge, just for some reason hydra bust shouldn't require the correct response. If you watch the replay in the VOD after losing his last zealot and seeing a hydra, he makes another 10 probes, for a total of 52 vs 29 drones. If that's not greed I don't know what fucking is. He's LITERALLY MAKING PROBES while hydras are killing his base. He put down the other two cannons after your screenshot. When the bust started, he had 4 cannons ready with 3 more warping. I think that's a fair amount. You see that amount very often in every Hydra bust defense. I can agree that he should have stopped making probes after seeing the hydra in front of his base though. Bisu the other day also had 4 cannons and 2 zealots with only 1 warping, at 46 probes and his 2 Nexus were blinking too, but the situation was different, it was later in the game with a Hydra switch after Muta. When did I refuse to accept that the game is played on a razors edge? In fact that's exactly what I would say. That's what they have to do to win at this level, not CPL where they teach you to build extra cannons "just in case". And that's exactly why Snow (and Bisu) played on the thin edge with their number or cannons. The problem is you're talking from a place of hindsight and you just assume Protoss has to play to perfection just to get to a 50/50 game, or even "take a loss and play from behind" lol. You've just answered yourself right there. Why Protoss has to play like that in the first place? Does Zerg play perfectly? In other matchups, if you let the worker get in your base, your plan is exposed and it's likely not gonna work. In PvZ, or the Dominator game for example, Soma let the probe slip into his base and saw the Spire, a mistake he shouldn't have made anyway. He, didn't play perfectly there. What's the repercussion for that? Nothing. Only in PvZ, one race can see the entire tech of the other and still doesn't know what will be thrown at them. And that thing is not even a harassment tool like a Reaver, it's something that can kill you immediately. Also note that I never said PvZ unplayable. I would just like you guys to address/acknowledge that information disadvantage. If Zergs play like Soma all the time (building both Spire and Den), Protosses will just blindly put cannons everywhere. But of course they won't and they will keep Protoss guessing. See the problem there? You're not supposed to guess to stay in the game. It's unfair. You should be provided with a reliable tool to defend. If it can't be done via scouting (like seeing what's in the eggs), it has to be done by giving Protoss enough reaction time (like reducing cannon build time, or allowing a repair mechanism like Terran), or by reducing the potency of the bust (high ground nat). Protoss is given nothing. I asked that question before: if rush distance was reduced and Zerg couldn't get sunkens up when he sees the MM moves out, would you call that unfair? I would, and I would demand a change for Zerg to be not at that huge disadvantage against Terran. You cannot foil hydra pushes with 1 gate. I just posted a disclaimer on that. I didn't get to use the second hatchery. That was just a placeholder for your second base after the rush is over. this post, like 99% of all your posts, makes literally zero sense. not only is your first sentence ridiculous, because many hydra busts live or die depending on cannon count, not gateway count, but the point about 1 gate has no relevance to anything tmnt said in his post. then you talk about a second hatchery which also makes no sense and has nothing to do with anything. wtf is a 2nd hatchery a placeholder for? wat? just stop posting man It is from my last post #535 where I discuss a possible equivalent cost army composition. 1 gate can't possibly make enough zealots to thwart a 16 hydralisk push, or can you fight 16 hydralisk with just 6 zealots? I didn't assume you could, zerg would just crush your army. However, I also assumed what if I make the 2nd hatchery in time - that is a wild assumption making the hatchery and spawning pool tech tree simultaneously - you can make 21 hydralisks, not 16. That is how many larvae 2 hatcheries can make. However, in order to make 21 hydralisks, you'd have to spend more minerals and vespene gas, so 16 hydralisk push can finish in a similar timeframe to 11 zealot counter push, but 21 hydralisk cannot. You'd have to start from a bigger economy to finish the 21 hydralisk push, else you need to spend 2925/875, instead of 2450/750 for zerg. 9 drones harvest roughly 620 minerals per minute, so I assume you need more than 4:36 if we trace a straight mining rate. You'd need to start the rush later than 9 drones on minerals which would throw off the timing, like 15 pool instead of 12 pool/hatch if you want to complete in the same 4:36 start to finish time frame and starting from a later point isn't a rush any more. I just assume if it will take more time to harvest for 21 hydralisks, it should be out of the question it can be finished in a similar time frame, because obviously I'm assuming both protoss and zerg have similar drone and probes in trying to outplay each other.
WTF are you on about? why in the world would you imagine a scenario where the correct response to a "16 hydra bust" is having 11 zealots and 1 archon? and your justification for this is because the total cost of everything up til that point is equal on both sides?
do you even play the game? fucking hell this is stupid. basically to sum up everything youve been spewing the entire thread is "the best way to play pvz is to play 2 gate hardcore zealot". youre either a 10/10 ragebaiter or you should just be banned from the bw section entirely
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On October 29 2025 23:16 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2025 21:36 mtcn77 wrote:On October 29 2025 20:17 evilfatsh1t wrote:On October 29 2025 19:06 mtcn77 wrote:On October 29 2025 18:54 TMNT wrote:On October 29 2025 11:57 foxmeep wrote:On October 29 2025 09:50 TMNT wrote:On October 29 2025 08:12 sc2turtlepants wrote:
Spitting facts here. I mean look at game 5 - Snow was on top of his shit that game, made cannons to stop the hydras, soma immediately goes back into droning (which is supposed to be THE unstoppable zerg counter to cannon-making according to some in this thread) and then Z dies 5 minutes later.
Terrible read of the game. See if people can't assess the state of these games properly, the discussion is going nowhere because of misunderstanding after misunderstanding. Firstly, in game 5 (Metropolis) and game 2 (Dominator), BOTH TIMES Snow put down 4 cannons on top of the 2 he already had. So how come you accuse him of greed in game 2 and but praise him in game 5? Secondly, and more importantly, you are not aware of how far Snow was ahead in game 5. He got away with 12 Nexus, then the same 4-zealot pressure this time worked way better than game 2 (because Soma's Lings were way out of position): drones being pull left and right, better trade with lings, even got a couple of drones. That put Snow in a position where he can afford a bit more caution, especially when it was match point. But even so, he still put down the same amount of cannons he put in game 2, and he cancelled 1 later! After that, the DT at Soma's 3rd base put him even more behind, which led to the kill 5 minutes later like you said (also 5 mins is a long time in BW). That's a funny looking 4 extra cannons. https://imgur.com/a/OV5iak7You lose 4 zealots like he did, see a hydra pop, you know you are dying if you don't instantly throw down 4 cannons, which he most certainly did not do. Can Zerg fake and go back to droning? Sure. But you're fkn dead if he just goes hydras. Bisu literally showed P can win from behind. Take the small loss and play from behind. Or take the game loss... shrug. Guess what happens when Zerg fks up his muta micro and loses mutas? Terran A moves and Zerg dies, or you throw up 3-4 sunks. Guess what happens when T fks up his early timing attack, he turtles or dies while P gets 2 more Nexus. You refuse to accept that the entire game is played on a razor's edge, just for some reason hydra bust shouldn't require the correct response. If you watch the replay in the VOD after losing his last zealot and seeing a hydra, he makes another 10 probes, for a total of 52 vs 29 drones. If that's not greed I don't know what fucking is. He's LITERALLY MAKING PROBES while hydras are killing his base. He put down the other two cannons after your screenshot. When the bust started, he had 4 cannons ready with 3 more warping. I think that's a fair amount. You see that amount very often in every Hydra bust defense. I can agree that he should have stopped making probes after seeing the hydra in front of his base though. Bisu the other day also had 4 cannons and 2 zealots with only 1 warping, at 46 probes and his 2 Nexus were blinking too, but the situation was different, it was later in the game with a Hydra switch after Muta. When did I refuse to accept that the game is played on a razors edge? In fact that's exactly what I would say. That's what they have to do to win at this level, not CPL where they teach you to build extra cannons "just in case". And that's exactly why Snow (and Bisu) played on the thin edge with their number or cannons. The problem is you're talking from a place of hindsight and you just assume Protoss has to play to perfection just to get to a 50/50 game, or even "take a loss and play from behind" lol. You've just answered yourself right there. Why Protoss has to play like that in the first place? Does Zerg play perfectly? In other matchups, if you let the worker get in your base, your plan is exposed and it's likely not gonna work. In PvZ, or the Dominator game for example, Soma let the probe slip into his base and saw the Spire, a mistake he shouldn't have made anyway. He, didn't play perfectly there. What's the repercussion for that? Nothing. Only in PvZ, one race can see the entire tech of the other and still doesn't know what will be thrown at them. And that thing is not even a harassment tool like a Reaver, it's something that can kill you immediately. Also note that I never said PvZ unplayable. I would just like you guys to address/acknowledge that information disadvantage. If Zergs play like Soma all the time (building both Spire and Den), Protosses will just blindly put cannons everywhere. But of course they won't and they will keep Protoss guessing. See the problem there? You're not supposed to guess to stay in the game. It's unfair. You should be provided with a reliable tool to defend. If it can't be done via scouting (like seeing what's in the eggs), it has to be done by giving Protoss enough reaction time (like reducing cannon build time, or allowing a repair mechanism like Terran), or by reducing the potency of the bust (high ground nat). Protoss is given nothing. I asked that question before: if rush distance was reduced and Zerg couldn't get sunkens up when he sees the MM moves out, would you call that unfair? I would, and I would demand a change for Zerg to be not at that huge disadvantage against Terran. You cannot foil hydra pushes with 1 gate. I just posted a disclaimer on that. I didn't get to use the second hatchery. That was just a placeholder for your second base after the rush is over. this post, like 99% of all your posts, makes literally zero sense. not only is your first sentence ridiculous, because many hydra busts live or die depending on cannon count, not gateway count, but the point about 1 gate has no relevance to anything tmnt said in his post. then you talk about a second hatchery which also makes no sense and has nothing to do with anything. wtf is a 2nd hatchery a placeholder for? wat? just stop posting man It is from my last post #535 where I discuss a possible equivalent cost army composition. 1 gate can't possibly make enough zealots to thwart a 16 hydralisk push, or can you fight 16 hydralisk with just 6 zealots? I didn't assume you could, zerg would just crush your army. However, I also assumed what if I make the 2nd hatchery in time - that is a wild assumption making the hatchery and spawning pool tech tree simultaneously - you can make 21 hydralisks, not 16. That is how many larvae 2 hatcheries can make. However, in order to make 21 hydralisks, you'd have to spend more minerals and vespene gas, so 16 hydralisk push can finish in a similar timeframe to 11 zealot counter push, but 21 hydralisk cannot. You'd have to start from a bigger economy to finish the 21 hydralisk push, else you need to spend 2925/875, instead of 2450/750 for zerg. 9 drones harvest roughly 620 minerals per minute, so I assume you need more than 4:36 if we trace a straight mining rate. You'd need to start the rush later than 9 drones on minerals which would throw off the timing, like 15 pool instead of 12 pool/hatch if you want to complete in the same 4:36 start to finish time frame and starting from a later point isn't a rush any more. I just assume if it will take more time to harvest for 21 hydralisks, it should be out of the question it can be finished in a similar time frame, because obviously I'm assuming both protoss and zerg have similar drone and probes in trying to outplay each other. WTF are you on about? why in the world would you imagine a scenario where the correct response to a "16 hydra bust" is having 11 zealots and 1 archon? and your justification for this is because the total cost of everything up til that point is equal on both sides? do you even play the game? fucking hell this is stupid. basically to sum up everything youve been spewing the entire thread is "the best way to play pvz is to play 2 gate hardcore zealot". youre either a 10/10 ragebaiter or you should just be banned from the bw section entirely
I'm discussing high level play. We just witnessed soma play some games without making a mutalisk. I think you are missing the point.
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theres absolutely nothing close to being high level found in any of your posts mate. its not even level. just completely lopsided capsizing mess
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On October 29 2025 23:32 evilfatsh1t wrote:
theres absolutely nothing close to being high level found in any of your posts mate. its not even level. just completely lopsided capsizing mess
Yes, and you are stuck discussing balance with no understanding why you just don't have the army numbers to counter a single hatchery hydralisk rush. It couldn't get more stupid than this.
PS: what is lopsided capsizing? Is this AI speaking?
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Snow has been cursed. He will never win in finals because of this!
Soma just casually wins an ASL after coming back from military - what a talent!
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On October 29 2025 23:45 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2025 23:32 evilfatsh1t wrote:
theres absolutely nothing close to being high level found in any of your posts mate. its not even level. just completely lopsided capsizing mess Yes, and you are stuck discussing balance with no understanding why you just don't have the army numbers to counter a single hatchery hydralisk rush. It couldn't get more stupid than this. PS: what is lopsided capsizing? Is this AI speaking?
last i checked hydra busts didnt come out of one hatchery.
your entire argument is that pvz should be played off a 2 gate opening because it obviously produces enough units to deal with a hydra bust. well no fucking shit.
the problem is when zerg sees you going 2 gates they dont hydra bust anymore. are you incapable of understanding that players react to certain things? why in the world would a zerg hydra bust a protoss that opened with 2 gates
?????????
what an absolute clown. stop embarrassing yourself and just shut up seriously
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On October 29 2025 00:47 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
For the record. Not a single protoss was eliminated by zerg in the round of 16
in the round of 8 from 3 zergs only 1 survived. Mini was eliminated by a terran with an insane proxy barracks all in that was luck enough to be placed next to his base. Could have been 3 protoss in semis. We got 2 of them. No only that but Bisu was so close to make it to the finals if it wasnt for the failed zealot block to his sim city. Yet we are talking about all that bs.
Imbalanced yeah..
We should be praising Soma an amateur player for making history and here we are complaining about him abusing x stuff. When in reality is just him putting the time in to master areas from the game and optimizations that no a single zerg is close to that. Honestly is sad.
This is my second post here, and probably the last. I have never played Starcraft in multiplayer; but I have watched thousands of games since 2009. I surely am far more uninformed and less knowledgeable compared to a semi-pro like yourself. So please, take a bit of your time and indulge me.... Four years ago (my first post here) I asked here how come no ones sees the glaring imbalance of early game PvZ. If the Zerg knows what it is doing, it will deny the Protoss scout for two minutes or more, between the probe/zealot dying and the corsair coming in. For myself- an unknowleadgeable noob- this seems an enormous amount of time for a competitive RTS. And, combined with the volatility of the Zerg race in terms of early game rush opportunities, it means that a Protoss player of similar skill will start with a huge disadvantage in any 'Best of X' series.
And the reply I received here four years ago was akin to your argument above. Before Soma, it was Soulkey... and the answer here was that Soulkey is a superior player, imbalance of ZvP has nothing to do with him beating Protoss at the highest level left and right. And before Soulkey, it was Zero. Same remarks- he is just a better player, early-game ZvP is not imbalanced. Who was it before Zero- Larva? Effort?
The answer was always the same- do not touch balance, fix it via map design, stop complaining, ZvP is fine.... even though two decades worth of statistics show otherwise. Hell, even top Koreean Zerg players in their interviews mention it, directly or not. And here we are, years later, exactly at the same point. And it wouldn't matter as much, if long-term this would not hurt the game that we all love, regardless of their favorite race. If the game will slowly fade because the community does not act at all, is completely obtuse in terms of a simple balance patch (so what if 25 years have passed,I ask- shouldn't you try to rectify something glaringly obvious?) and pretends everything is fine.... well then, I don't think it will matter what race one or another plays or favors.
But maybe I am completely wrong, even obtuse in my thinking, and you are right. You are the professional after all. In this case, please do something for the whole community and the many who think like I do. Please take a bit of your training time, play Protoss, and show all of us how Protoss can consistently survive early-game PvZ! I am not saying this to be sarcastic. I really mean it- who knows, maybe something significant will come out of it? I don't expect you to challenge Korean pros, just people with a similar skill level. All Protoss pros, people like Bisu, Rain, Best, Mini, Snow etc. have so far failed to solve early-game PvZ in a consistent manner. If you manage that, I am sure the entire community would be grateful.
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On October 30 2025 00:15 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2025 23:45 mtcn77 wrote:On October 29 2025 23:32 evilfatsh1t wrote:
theres absolutely nothing close to being high level found in any of your posts mate. its not even level. just completely lopsided capsizing mess Yes, and you are stuck discussing balance with no understanding why you just don't have the army numbers to counter a single hatchery hydralisk rush. It couldn't get more stupid than this. PS: what is lopsided capsizing? Is this AI speaking? last i checked hydra busts didnt come out of one hatchery. your entire argument is that pvz should be played off a 2 gate opening because it obviously produces enough units to deal with a hydra bust. well no fucking shit. the problem is when zerg sees you going 2 gates they dont hydra bust anymore. are you incapable of understanding that players react to certain things? why in the world would a zerg hydra bust a protoss that opened with 2 gates ????????? what an absolute clown. stop embarrassing yourself and just shut up seriously
I know. That is why I just checked to verify if people have reasonable expectations. I just took 1 hatchery and asked how much it would take the protoss to counter 1 hatchery. If you cannot accept my summary, be oblivious making photon cannons and typing gg in grand finals.
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personally i dont think brood war should receive a balance patch. despite the obvious unique disadvantage protoss faces only in pvz, i think its more likely that a balance patch would be more disastrous to the matchup and the entire game than it would actually fix the problem.
the only problems i have with this asl and pvz in general is that there are some players (mainly zergs) that dont acknowledge their advantage. if all they have to say about the matchup is "herp derp git gud noob", then thats just stupid.
the second problem for me is just a dislike for the way soma specifically plays the matchup. i cant fault him too much because to be fair to him, its his first ever major competitive win. i can understand that his priorities are simply to win and nothing else.
however i cant feel too happy for him when he got there by abusing the most broken part of the matchup and overall reducing the quality of entertainment.
i dont have any specific evidence of this, but id bet my house on the fact that in the kespa days, pros were encouraged to not just play to win, but play to entertain. at the end of the day, the fans entertainment is the most important thing and thats why we didnt see cheese rushes left and right from every race in every match by pros just trying to squeeze out wins. thats why players like flash had an incredibly bad reputation in his early days, because he had a higher tendency to cheese rush players.
the best sc games are long with multiple bases, multiple large army engagements, multiple tech trees etc.
were not in the kespa days anymore where stakeholders may be reminding players about the entertainment factor but i think all the ex pros have this mindset just instilled within them. the only exception is soma, because he obviously didnt have a proper kespa career and maybe didnt get a chance to learn this side of the job. and this isnt to say that ex pros would never cheese rush, because obviously they still do. but i gotta say its no coincidence that soma plays the dirtiest and least entertaining pvz, and its no coincidence that his wins over bisu and snow were met with the worst reception out of any major zvp win. game 7 of bisu vs soma in particular was widely considered to be an absolutely awful end to an otherwise intense series. the way soma plays just isnt fun to watch
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On October 30 2025 00:39 evilfatsh1t wrote:
personally i dont think brood war should receive a balance patch. despite the obvious unique disadvantage protoss faces only in pvz, i think its more likely that a balance patch would be more disastrous to the matchup and the entire game than it would actually fix the problem.
the only problems i have with this asl and pvz in general is that there are some players (mainly zergs) that dont acknowledge their advantage. if all they have to say about the matchup is "herp derp git gud noob", then thats just stupid.
the second problem for me is just a dislike for the way soma specifically plays the matchup. i cant fault him too much because to be fair to him, its his first ever major competitive win. i can understand that his priorities are simply to win and nothing else.
however i cant feel too happy for him when he got there by abusing the most broken part of the matchup and overall reducing the quality of entertainment.
i dont have any specific evidence of this, but id bet my house on the fact that in the kespa days, pros were encouraged to not just play to win, but play to entertain. at the end of the day, the fans entertainment is the most important thing and thats why we didnt see cheese rushes left and right from every race in every match by pros just trying to squeeze out wins. thats why players like flash had an incredibly bad reputation in his early days, because he had a higher tendency to cheese rush players.
the best sc games are long with multiple bases, multiple large army engagements, multiple tech trees etc.
were not in the kespa days anymore where stakeholders may be reminding players about the entertainment factor but i think all the ex pros have this mindset just instilled within them. the only exception is soma, because he obviously didnt have a proper kespa career and maybe didnt get a chance to learn this side of the job. and this isnt to say that ex pros would never cheese rush, because obviously they still do. but i gotta say its no coincidence that soma plays the dirtiest and least entertaining pvz, and its no coincidence that his wins over bisu and snow were met with the worst reception out of any major zvp win. game 7 of bisu vs soma in particular was widely considered to be an absolutely awful end to an otherwise intense series. the way soma plays just isnt fun to watch
You know there is no difference in losing due to missed scouting a base, or a build order. Motive vs rush and soulkey vs effort is no different than losing to hydrabust. Stop wisecrack builds if you can't defend the simplest build in the game, in my opinion. Make 2 gate, you just answered your own problem in your previous post without actually realising.
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On October 30 2025 00:39 evilfatsh1t wrote:
personally i dont think brood war should receive a balance patch. despite the obvious unique disadvantage protoss faces only in pvz, i think its more likely that a balance patch would be more disastrous to the matchup and the entire game than it would actually fix the problem.
the only problems i have with this asl and pvz in general is that there are some players (mainly zergs) that dont acknowledge their advantage. if all they have to say about the matchup is "herp derp git gud noob", then thats just stupid.
the second problem for me is just a dislike for the way soma specifically plays the matchup. i cant fault him too much because to be fair to him, its his first ever major competitive win. i can understand that his priorities are simply to win and nothing else.
however i cant feel too happy for him when he got there by abusing the most broken part of the matchup and overall reducing the quality of entertainment.
i dont have any specific evidence of this, but id bet my house on the fact that in the kespa days, pros were encouraged to not just play to win, but play to entertain. at the end of the day, the fans entertainment is the most important thing and thats why we didnt see cheese rushes left and right from every race in every match by pros just trying to squeeze out wins. thats why players like flash had an incredibly bad reputation in his early days, because he had a higher tendency to cheese rush players.
the best sc games are long with multiple bases, multiple large army engagements, multiple tech trees etc.
were not in the kespa days anymore where stakeholders may be reminding players about the entertainment factor but i think all the ex pros have this mindset just instilled within them. the only exception is soma, because he obviously didnt have a proper kespa career and maybe didnt get a chance to learn this side of the job. and this isnt to say that ex pros would never cheese rush, because obviously they still do. but i gotta say its no coincidence that soma plays the dirtiest and least entertaining pvz, and its no coincidence that his wins over bisu and snow were met with the worst reception out of any major zvp win. game 7 of bisu vs soma in particular was widely considered to be an absolutely awful end to an otherwise intense series. the way soma plays just isnt fun to watch
imo zerg strength in ZvP has two peaks
- early aggression and trix with tech switches
- cost efficient defiler-centric late game
soma seems very focused on the first one right now, while soulkey exclusively went for the second one, when he really needed to win
people were just as mad about SK because "he just sat there until defilers"
just read any of the threads when SK played vs P during previous seasons, it's exactly the same complaints about his play style, even though he did the complete opposite of the way soma plays
does noone remember people commenting how SK "didn't hydra bust a single time that series" lol
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/4brBZMp.jpeg)
