On October 29 2025 00:47 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: For the record. Not a single protoss was eliminated by zerg in the round of 16
in the round of 8 from 3 zergs only 1 survived. Mini was eliminated by a terran with an insane proxy barracks all in that was luck enough to be placed next to his base. Could have been 3 protoss in semis. We got 2 of them. No only that but Bisu was so close to make it to the finals if it wasnt for the failed zealot block to his sim city. Yet we are talking about all that bs.
Imbalanced yeah..
We should be praising Soma an amateur player for making history and here we are complaining about him abusing x stuff. When in reality is just him putting the time in to master areas from the game and optimizations that no a single zerg is close to that. Honestly is sad.
This is my second post here, and probably the last. I have never played Starcraft in multiplayer; but I have watched thousands of games since 2009. I surely am far more uninformed and less knowledgeable compared to a semi-pro like yourself. So please, take a bit of your time and indulge me.... Four years ago (my first post here) I asked here how come no ones sees the glaring imbalance of early game PvZ. If the Zerg knows what it is doing, it will deny the Protoss scout for two minutes or more, between the probe/zealot dying and the corsair coming in. For myself- an unknowleadgeable noob- this seems an enormous amount of time for a competitive RTS. And, combined with the volatility of the Zerg race in terms of early game rush opportunities, it means that a Protoss player of similar skill will start with a huge disadvantage in any 'Best of X' series.
And the reply I received here four years ago was akin to your argument above. Before Soma, it was Soulkey... and the answer here was that Soulkey is a superior player, imbalance of ZvP has nothing to do with him beating Protoss at the highest level left and right. And before Soulkey, it was Zero. Same remarks- he is just a better player, early-game ZvP is not imbalanced. Who was it before Zero- Larva? Effort?
The answer was always the same- do not touch balance, fix it via map design, stop complaining, ZvP is fine.... even though two decades worth of statistics show otherwise. Hell, even top Koreean Zerg players in their interviews mention it, directly or not. And here we are, years later, exactly at the same point. And it wouldn't matter as much, if long-term this would not hurt the game that we all love, regardless of their favorite race. If the game will slowly fade because the community does not act at all, is completely obtuse in terms of a simple balance patch (so what if 25 years have passed,I ask- shouldn't you try to rectify something glaringly obvious?) and pretends everything is fine.... well then, I don't think it will matter what race one or another plays or favors.
But maybe I am completely wrong, even obtuse in my thinking, and you are right. You are the professional after all. In this case, please do something for the whole community and the many who think like I do. Please take a bit of your training time, play Protoss, and show all of us how Protoss can consistently survive early-game PvZ! I am not saying this to be sarcastic. I really mean it- who knows, maybe something significant will come out of it? I don't expect you to challenge Korean pros, just people with a similar skill level. All Protoss pros, people like Bisu, Rain, Best, Mini, Snow etc. have so far failed to solve early-game PvZ in a consistent manner. If you manage that, I am sure the entire community would be grateful.
Whats the stats on zvp that bear out this imbalance again? People throw this shit around but I know they dont have some macro set of data they are pulling from. The last ones I saw years back had zvp at like 52% across all of broodwar history? It's not some huge statistical imbalance.
pros were encouraged to not just play to win, but play to entertain
I know you are crazy when you describe pros are delivering entertainment like matchfixing scandal that were shunned in Korean culture. Players left their careers for what happened. Even flash got shunned for an unrelated deception.
On October 29 2025 00:47 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: For the record. Not a single protoss was eliminated by zerg in the round of 16
in the round of 8 from 3 zergs only 1 survived. Mini was eliminated by a terran with an insane proxy barracks all in that was luck enough to be placed next to his base. Could have been 3 protoss in semis. We got 2 of them. No only that but Bisu was so close to make it to the finals if it wasnt for the failed zealot block to his sim city. Yet we are talking about all that bs.
Imbalanced yeah..
We should be praising Soma an amateur player for making history and here we are complaining about him abusing x stuff. When in reality is just him putting the time in to master areas from the game and optimizations that no a single zerg is close to that. Honestly is sad.
This is my second post here, and probably the last. I have never played Starcraft in multiplayer; but I have watched thousands of games since 2009. I surely am far more uninformed and less knowledgeable compared to a semi-pro like yourself. So please, take a bit of your time and indulge me.... Four years ago (my first post here) I asked here how come no ones sees the glaring imbalance of early game PvZ. If the Zerg knows what it is doing, it will deny the Protoss scout for two minutes or more, between the probe/zealot dying and the corsair coming in. For myself- an unknowleadgeable noob- this seems an enormous amount of time for a competitive RTS. And, combined with the volatility of the Zerg race in terms of early game rush opportunities, it means that a Protoss player of similar skill will start with a huge disadvantage in any 'Best of X' series.
And the reply I received here four years ago was akin to your argument above. Before Soma, it was Soulkey... and the answer here was that Soulkey is a superior player, imbalance of ZvP has nothing to do with him beating Protoss at the highest level left and right. And before Soulkey, it was Zero. Same remarks- he is just a better player, early-game ZvP is not imbalanced. Who was it before Zero- Larva? Effort?
The answer was always the same- do not touch balance, fix it via map design, stop complaining, ZvP is fine.... even though two decades worth of statistics show otherwise. Hell, even top Koreean Zerg players in their interviews mention it, directly or not. And here we are, years later, exactly at the same point. And it wouldn't matter as much, if long-term this would not hurt the game that we all love, regardless of their favorite race. If the game will slowly fade because the community does not act at all, is completely obtuse in terms of a simple balance patch (so what if 25 years have passed,I ask- shouldn't you try to rectify something glaringly obvious?) and pretends everything is fine.... well then, I don't think it will matter what race one or another plays or favors.
But maybe I am completely wrong, even obtuse in my thinking, and you are right. You are the professional after all. In this case, please do something for the whole community and the many who think like I do. Please take a bit of your training time, play Protoss, and show all of us how Protoss can consistently survive early-game PvZ! I am not saying this to be sarcastic. I really mean it- who knows, maybe something significant will come out of it? I don't expect you to challenge Korean pros, just people with a similar skill level. All Protoss pros, people like Bisu, Rain, Best, Mini, Snow etc. have so far failed to solve early-game PvZ in a consistent manner. If you manage that, I am sure the entire community would be grateful.
Whats the stats on zvp that bear out this imbalance again? People throw this shit around but I know they dont have some macro set of data they are pulling from. The last ones I saw years back had zvp at like 52% across all of broodwar history? It's not some huge statistical imbalance.
Kespa (2001-2012): 54.7% over ~10k games
Eloboard (2021-now): 52.4% over ~27k games
Kespa overall is worse for Protoss, maybe because the period pre-Bisu is taken into account (edit: actually not true, just look at the progression of the two curves on the chart).
There are also data covering the 2017-2021 period (recorded by sponbbang but the site is dead now) which points to similar percentage too. There're probably some screenshots on TL but I guess theres no need to find. I'd say 52-54% is pretty significant given the sample size is in the range of 50k+ lol.
On October 29 2025 23:32 evilfatsh1t wrote: theres absolutely nothing close to being high level found in any of your posts mate. its not even level. just completely lopsided capsizing mess
Yes, and you are stuck discussing balance with no understanding why you just don't have the army numbers to counter a single hatchery hydralisk rush. It couldn't get more stupid than this. PS: what is lopsided capsizing? Is this AI speaking?
last i checked hydra busts didnt come out of one hatchery.
your entire argument is that pvz should be played off a 2 gate opening because it obviously produces enough units to deal with a hydra bust. well no fucking shit.
the problem is when zerg sees you going 2 gates they dont hydra bust anymore. are you incapable of understanding that players react to certain things? why in the world would a zerg hydra bust a protoss that opened with 2 gates
?????????
what an absolute clown. stop embarrassing yourself and just shut up seriously
Even if he doesn't have that intention (in that case he's just a very weird person), the way he posts has turned himself into a troll or a ragebaiter.
Sometimes I respond to him because I'm curious to decipher his language. Otherwise there's no value in it. As you see most people by now are just ignoring his posts. But sometimes we have new members or long time no see posters returning to the forum, so they fall into the trap, just like you did here.
If mods don't do anything about this guy, it's best everyone just ignores him.
StarLeague Victories Since Patch 1.08 (May 20, 2001):
Without SonicTV BJ Starleague (OSL + MSL + KSL + ASL): Protoss: 16 wins (~19.75%) Zerg: 30 wins (~37%) Terran: 35 wins (~43.2%) Total StarLeagues: 81
Including SonicTV BJ Starleague (SSL): Protoss: 19 wins (20.43%) Zerg: 35 wins (37.63%) Terran: 39 wins (41.94%) Total StarLeagues: 93
Instead of the expected 33% win rate, Protoss consistently sits at around 20%. This is a significant underperformance, and the primary explanation is balance issues.
On October 29 2025 21:12 Maks wrote: This is why I’ve never seen Flash as the strongest player in StarCraft history. It’s impossible to tell where his skill ends and Terran’s dominance begins. Best Terran of all time? Yes. Best player? That’s debatable.
Ok this has got to be a troll post
The reality is that you can’t judge a player’s skill without considering race balance. For example, why should I consider Flash a stronger player than Bisu if Flash never had to deal with insane PvZ matchup where Protoss had only a 45% win rate?
On October 29 2025 21:12 Maks wrote: This is why I’ve never seen Flash as the strongest player in StarCraft history. It’s impossible to tell where his skill ends and Terran’s dominance begins. Best Terran of all time? Yes. Best player? That’s debatable.
Ok this has got to be a troll post
The reality is that you can’t judge a player’s skill without considering race balance. For example, why should I consider Flash a stronger player than Bisu if Flash never had to deal with insane PvZ matchup where Protoss had only a 45% win rate?
To put this another way, why consider Flash stronger than JD or SoulKey when Flash never had to deal with the ZvZ coinflip meta? How many more golds would SK have if he didn't have the ZvZ mirror matchup to contend with?
When only 1 race produces (non-matchfixing) bonjwas, how balanced can your game be?
On October 29 2025 09:50 TMNT wrote: Firstly, in game 5 (Metropolis) and game 2 (Dominator), BOTH TIMES Snow put down 4 cannons on top of the 2 he already had. So how come you accuse him of greed in game 2 and but praise him in game 5?
imgur doesn't wanna let me upload images, but you claiming the 2+2 warping cannons Snow had when hydras arrived on Dominator = the 5 cannons he had up (plus the one he cancelled right before it finished, but could have had) on Metropolis before hydras left soma's base is pure comedy. In another comment on this thread you made the claim that zerg can just switch to droning if you build cannons and get a free eco win....well soma did just that on Metropolis and he died 5 minutes later, well after his 'free eco' had time to kick in.
Of course the rest of the game matters, that's what the rest of us have been saying! That was the only notable DT in the series and it did well, but they were still within 8 supply shortly before Snow pushed out so it wasn't exactly game-ending. You're acting like hydra busts are broken and in a rock-paper-scissors match zerg wins every time while ignoring the game in this very series which disproves your claims.
Keeping up with your mental gymnastics is hurting my brain. See you guys in the next ASL thread!
On October 30 2025 03:11 Maks wrote: StarLeague Victories Since Patch 1.08 (May 20, 2001):
Without SonicTV BJ Starleague (OSL + MSL + KSL + ASL): Protoss: 16 wins (~19.75%) Zerg: 30 wins (~37%) Terran: 35 wins (~43.2%) Total StarLeagues: 81
Including SonicTV BJ Starleague (SSL): Protoss: 19 wins (20.43%) Zerg: 35 wins (37.63%) Terran: 39 wins (41.94%) Total StarLeagues: 93
Instead of the expected 33% win rate, Protoss consistently sits at around 20%. This is a significant underperformance, and the primary explanation is balance issues.
On October 29 2025 21:12 Maks wrote: This is why I’ve never seen Flash as the strongest player in StarCraft history. It’s impossible to tell where his skill ends and Terran’s dominance begins. Best Terran of all time? Yes. Best player? That’s debatable.
Ok this has got to be a troll post
Speaking of the greatest player among all races makes no sense. Only per race. Flash is indeed the greatest terran, but it's impossible to know how good he would be if he had played Z or P. Historically, based on success alone, there is a clear pattern of T>Z>>P. Look at KCM too - it is a P disaster.
Anyway. Sth is wrong with brood war balance, since forever, making it a game of 2.5 races in terms of achieving greatness instead of 3. This is not good for the scene, or interest. New strong P players are non existent. Fans are getting into ZvP finals fully expecting a Z win. True, TvZ is also somewhat imbalanced, and T always had it easiest, but ZvP feels so depressing, and worse, predictably boring, almost a lost cause.
Lastly, to mods. Shame on you for the ban. I am here to point out the truth, and as ugly as it may be, it's still the truth. I am not here to whine, but to point to problems that I believe have the potential to end brood war. And that would be a colossal shame. I've been listening how maps will solve things stuff for years, and it never happened. More extreme measures are needed if we can't solve this with maps. Change armor type of warping cannons. Make egg content visible. Make the hydra den show animation when upgrading. Something. The idea that such a small change would break the game is crazy. What is the worst to happen? 40% P champions vs 30 Z and T? We have been living with roughly 20 P 45 T 35 Z for an eternity which is seemingly for many this holy grail of balance. But it isn't.
Surprised to see the amount of people proclaiming Soma as the next coming of Soulkey He's gonna have to prove it in a couple more long series against Terran for me to be convinced, because he's historically gotten stomped by Terrans
IMO right now there's no clear gosu bonjwa Soulkey is still weaker against Z Soma still has to prove his ZvT I thought Effort was getting close, but recently his ZvP has been lacking (lost against Mini and Snow) Snow keeps losing to Z
Soma will come down to Earth once the best Terran in ASL is no longer Barracks. (heh)
The statistics posted on this very page are nauseating. Had no idea the race imbalance was this bad. Kind of makes you wonder how PvZ would look like without Bisu.
I think if Bisu was not around we would've had a balance patch by now. (minor, like the ones I suggested).
On October 29 2025 09:50 TMNT wrote: Firstly, in game 5 (Metropolis) and game 2 (Dominator), BOTH TIMES Snow put down 4 cannons on top of the 2 he already had. So how come you accuse him of greed in game 2 and but praise him in game 5?
imgur doesn't wanna let me upload images, but you claiming the 2+2 warping cannons Snow had when hydras arrived on Dominator = the 5 cannons he had up (plus the one he cancelled right before it finished, but could have had) on Metropolis before hydras left soma's base is pure comedy. In another comment on this thread you made the claim that zerg can just switch to droning if you build cannons and get a free eco win....well soma did just that on Metropolis and he died 5 minutes later, well after his 'free eco' had time to kick in.
Of course the rest of the game matters, that's what the rest of us have been saying! That was the only notable DT in the series and it did well, but they were still within 8 supply shortly before Snow pushed out so it wasn't exactly game-ending. You're acting like hydra busts are broken and in a rock-paper-scissors match zerg wins every time while ignoring the game in this very series which disproves your claims.
Keeping up with your mental gymnastics is hurting my brain. See you guys in the next ASL thread!
Dude, you have no idea how progamers build cannons for a Hydra bust, and generally very weak understanding of this matchup. Read evil's post earlier to learn about BW, or go back to SC2:
if we go even deeper into the pvz mind games, protoss has to be careful not to throw down 4-5 cannons at once when he scouts the first hydras. assuming protoss already has 2 cannons up, the optimal number of cannons you want at the earliest timing for hydras is 4, meaning you only spawn in 2 cannons at the beginning. from there you put down more cannons if you see with your corsairs that zerg is continuing to spawn hydras. if you immediately invest in up to 5-6 cannons from the very beginning, zergs just fake the bust, settle for breaking the gate/forge and just drone up immediately. if you fail to continue to scout with your sair or any other unit whether zerg is reinforcing the initial group of hydras, you risk dying to a bust because you only put down 4 cannons or investing in the extra cannons only to find out that zerg had droned up instead.
Here are more evidences for you. This is Bisu vs Soma one week earlier:
This is Snow vs Soma on that exact same spawn location lol:
The bust timing is 1 min apart because in the Bisu's game Soma goes for a switch from Muta (another ZvP imba tactic, this dude just stays on sub-30 drones and flips between all-ins lol, people praising him for this kind of play is like an indirect insult to Soulkey). But look at the staggering similarities there: in both cases Zerg has ~30 army supply and Protoss has 18 army supply, in both cases Protoss has 4 cannons ready (exactly like evil said)., but Bisu only has 1 cannon warping, while Snow has 3 and he also has 1 more zealot, which means Snow can't be too wrong here.
So how did Bisu holds but Snow doesn't? This I can't be entirely sure but maybe because in Snow's case, Soma has some extra lings, and maybe Bisu's cannon placement is better (I'm leaning more towards this), or maybe Soma reinforces better vs Snow. But the bottom line is as Protoss you don't just have 6 cannons ready for Hydras.
Now in the Metropolis game:
Same principle here: he original has 2, adds 4 more gradually, then lets 3 finishes and cancels 1. He even has 1 at the back of the nat to defend Mutas (which is built long before). The reason Snow was more cautious in this game, I explained to you already, but I don't know why you only quoted the first part of my post, while there's a second part, in which I even stressed out "more importantly". Is this how you lot Zerg supporters argue?
In this game: - Snow is already ahead thanks to the opening (12 Nexus) - Snow is even more ahead thanks to the 4 Zealot pressure - Snow is far ahead after the DT harass
Need proof? At 7:42 on Metropolis, Soma is supply blocked at 52/52. Compare that to the same time on Dominator when he's at 59/61. Even more interesting, at 8:11, his supply goes down to 50/36 (DT harass). Notice that his build (3H Lair into both Spire and Den) is not a good econ build in the first place, then it meets a 12 Nexus opening, then he gets his drones killed, his mining disrupted heavily, supply blocked, 3rd base shut down totally by one DT. As I said, you have no idea how far behind Soma was in this game.
And "within 8 supply" lol. This right here shows your lack of understanding. Yes there's one second like that at 10:40, because Snow queues two units in his Gateways, that's why 15s later the gap jumps up to 20 and consistenly maintains at 20-30 for the rest of the game (40 after the Mutas eat one storm). That's how he rolled Soma.
On October 29 2025 23:32 evilfatsh1t wrote: theres absolutely nothing close to being high level found in any of your posts mate. its not even level. just completely lopsided capsizing mess
Yes, and you are stuck discussing balance with no understanding why you just don't have the army numbers to counter a single hatchery hydralisk rush. It couldn't get more stupid than this. PS: what is lopsided capsizing? Is this AI speaking?
last i checked hydra busts didnt come out of one hatchery.
your entire argument is that pvz should be played off a 2 gate opening because it obviously produces enough units to deal with a hydra bust. well no fucking shit.
the problem is when zerg sees you going 2 gates they dont hydra bust anymore. are you incapable of understanding that players react to certain things? why in the world would a zerg hydra bust a protoss that opened with 2 gates
?????????
what an absolute clown. stop embarrassing yourself and just shut up seriously
Even if he doesn't have that intention (in that case he's just a very weird person), the way he posts has turned himself into a troll or a ragebaiter.
Sometimes I respond to him because I'm curious to decipher his language. Otherwise there's no value in it. As you see most people by now are just ignoring his posts. But sometimes we have new members or long time no see posters returning to the forum, so they fall into the trap, just like you did here.
If mods don't do anything about this guy, it's best everyone just ignores him.
Its alarming you are holding sides with a person whose belief is that during kespa era players were encouraged to matchfix and he already says he has no proof, but the fact he is blinded to the consequences of that is totally shocking to the level of delusion you team up with. Again, nobody responds to posts I make since I post basic stuff for your understanding. However you keep ignoring the precipice that pvz is no different than any other matchup where when one side slips up and messes up the build order, it is a game ending defeat at the initial part of the game. Yet, you keep talking like there is fundamentals lost on me what the FE build establishes that should tilt the tide in protoss favor. Is it stealth? No, zerg can see your build from the outset and provided there is a counter to the FE build which there is, they take it and strongarm the protoss into defeat. Is it economy? Protoss players lose a lot in the event that zerg can slip zerglings into the base as it happened on game 6. You can still keep the early natural and lose due to zerglings picking up probes and preventing them to make up for the sunken cost of the build. Is it the army? I said it again and funny enough you have repeated in your last post protoss has only ~9 zealots while zerg can have +15 hydralisks at 7:42-8:46 minute mark. This is unsustainable in army composition perspective. Like I said: you have to prove what is exceptional about this FE build that it breaks the rules of the game to put protoss in the lead when every indication leads us to believe it is behind.
On October 29 2025 09:50 TMNT wrote: Firstly, in game 5 (Metropolis) and game 2 (Dominator), BOTH TIMES Snow put down 4 cannons on top of the 2 he already had. So how come you accuse him of greed in game 2 and but praise him in game 5?
imgur doesn't wanna let me upload images, but you claiming the 2+2 warping cannons Snow had when hydras arrived on Dominator = the 5 cannons he had up (plus the one he cancelled right before it finished, but could have had) on Metropolis before hydras left soma's base is pure comedy. In another comment on this thread you made the claim that zerg can just switch to droning if you build cannons and get a free eco win....well soma did just that on Metropolis and he died 5 minutes later, well after his 'free eco' had time to kick in.
Of course the rest of the game matters, that's what the rest of us have been saying! That was the only notable DT in the series and it did well, but they were still within 8 supply shortly before Snow pushed out so it wasn't exactly game-ending. You're acting like hydra busts are broken and in a rock-paper-scissors match zerg wins every time while ignoring the game in this very series which disproves your claims.
Keeping up with your mental gymnastics is hurting my brain. See you guys in the next ASL thread!
In this game: - Snow is already ahead thanks to the opening (12 Nexus) - Snow is even more ahead thanks to the 4 Zealot pressure - Snow is far ahead after the DT harass
All this is not true. All that zerg sees is FE and sunk cost while zerg is mobile.
On October 29 2025 23:32 evilfatsh1t wrote: theres absolutely nothing close to being high level found in any of your posts mate. its not even level. just completely lopsided capsizing mess
Yes, and you are stuck discussing balance with no understanding why you just don't have the army numbers to counter a single hatchery hydralisk rush. It couldn't get more stupid than this. PS: what is lopsided capsizing? Is this AI speaking?
last i checked hydra busts didnt come out of one hatchery.
your entire argument is that pvz should be played off a 2 gate opening because it obviously produces enough units to deal with a hydra bust. well no fucking shit.
the problem is when zerg sees you going 2 gates they dont hydra bust anymore. are you incapable of understanding that players react to certain things? why in the world would a zerg hydra bust a protoss that opened with 2 gates
?????????
what an absolute clown. stop embarrassing yourself and just shut up seriously
Even if he doesn't have that intention (in that case he's just a very weird person), the way he posts has turned himself into a troll or a ragebaiter.
Sometimes I respond to him because I'm curious to decipher his language. Otherwise there's no value in it. As you see most people by now are just ignoring his posts. But sometimes we have new members or long time no see posters returning to the forum, so they fall into the trap, just like you did here.
If mods don't do anything about this guy, it's best everyone just ignores him.
Its alarming you are holding sides with a person whose belief is that during kespa era players were encouraged to matchfix and he already says he has no proof, but the fact he is blinded to the consequences of that is totally shocking to the level of delusion you team up with. Again, nobody responds to posts I make since I post basic stuff for your understanding. However you keep ignoring the precipice that pvz is no different than any other matchup where when one side slips up and messes up the build order, it is a game ending defeat at the initial part of the game. Yet, you keep talking like there is fundamentals lost on me what the FE build establishes that should tilt the tide in protoss favor. Is it stealth? No, zerg can see your build from the outset and provided there is a counter to the FE build which there is, they take it and strongarm the protoss into defeat. Is it economy? Protoss players lose a lot in the event that zerg can slip zerglings into the base as it happened on game 6. You can still keep the early natural and lose due to zerglings picking up probes and preventing them to make up for the sunken cost of the build. Is it the army? I said it again and funny enough you have repeated in your last post protoss has only ~9 zealots while zerg can have +15 hydralisks at 7:42-8:46 minute mark. This is unsustainable in army composition perspective. Like I said: you have to prove what is exceptional about this FE build that it breaks the rules of the game to put protoss in the lead when every indication leads us to believe it is behind.
On October 29 2025 09:50 TMNT wrote: Firstly, in game 5 (Metropolis) and game 2 (Dominator), BOTH TIMES Snow put down 4 cannons on top of the 2 he already had. So how come you accuse him of greed in game 2 and but praise him in game 5?
imgur doesn't wanna let me upload images, but you claiming the 2+2 warping cannons Snow had when hydras arrived on Dominator = the 5 cannons he had up (plus the one he cancelled right before it finished, but could have had) on Metropolis before hydras left soma's base is pure comedy. In another comment on this thread you made the claim that zerg can just switch to droning if you build cannons and get a free eco win....well soma did just that on Metropolis and he died 5 minutes later, well after his 'free eco' had time to kick in.
Of course the rest of the game matters, that's what the rest of us have been saying! That was the only notable DT in the series and it did well, but they were still within 8 supply shortly before Snow pushed out so it wasn't exactly game-ending. You're acting like hydra busts are broken and in a rock-paper-scissors match zerg wins every time while ignoring the game in this very series which disproves your claims.
Keeping up with your mental gymnastics is hurting my brain. See you guys in the next ASL thread!
In this game: - Snow is already ahead thanks to the opening (12 Nexus) - Snow is even more ahead thanks to the 4 Zealot pressure - Snow is far ahead after the DT harass
All this is not true. All that zerg sees is FE and sunk cost while zerg is mobile.
Actually, no one has to prove anything to someone who doesn't even play the game and thus has no concrete experience which informs their opinion. It's actually you who has to provide proof of why 2 Gate (or anything else) is actually viable and not your personal pipe dream when every pro Protoss whose livelihood depends on their ability to win the game is doing FE.
You see all progamers going for FE in PvZ and you think: "Well, all progamers must be misinformed, they didn't think of my totally original idea of going 2 Gate" (which has been phased out early in BW's professional meta).
If you had ever played the game at even a middling amateur level, you would know that 2 Gate openings are even more easily abused by Z and are effectively all-in cheese against Zergs who have two brain cells to rub together. But, because you are a living, breathing example of the Dunning-Kruger effect, you speak with absolute confidence about things you have close to 0 understanding of, and have 0 ability to budge off of your misaligned ideas. Tactfully avoiding any introspection or requests of proof, you fall back on "I'm 40 years old and don't play the game, but I spent a hundred hours of watching Pro VODs (which I didn't understand), so that means my ideas are sound and revolutionary."
If you watched 100 hours of people building houses with Korean commentary, would you feel comfortable giving people advice on how to build a house despite never picking up a hammer or drafting a blue print? Given your behavior on TL, I imagine you'd be telling people that they are stupid for building roofs after walls because that requires people to climb ladders, which isn't safe.
On October 29 2025 23:32 evilfatsh1t wrote: theres absolutely nothing close to being high level found in any of your posts mate. its not even level. just completely lopsided capsizing mess
Yes, and you are stuck discussing balance with no understanding why you just don't have the army numbers to counter a single hatchery hydralisk rush. It couldn't get more stupid than this. PS: what is lopsided capsizing? Is this AI speaking?
last i checked hydra busts didnt come out of one hatchery.
your entire argument is that pvz should be played off a 2 gate opening because it obviously produces enough units to deal with a hydra bust. well no fucking shit.
the problem is when zerg sees you going 2 gates they dont hydra bust anymore. are you incapable of understanding that players react to certain things? why in the world would a zerg hydra bust a protoss that opened with 2 gates
?????????
what an absolute clown. stop embarrassing yourself and just shut up seriously
Even if he doesn't have that intention (in that case he's just a very weird person), the way he posts has turned himself into a troll or a ragebaiter.
Sometimes I respond to him because I'm curious to decipher his language. Otherwise there's no value in it. As you see most people by now are just ignoring his posts. But sometimes we have new members or long time no see posters returning to the forum, so they fall into the trap, just like you did here.
If mods don't do anything about this guy, it's best everyone just ignores him.
Its alarming you are holding sides with a person whose belief is that during kespa era players were encouraged to matchfix and he already says he has no proof, but the fact he is blinded to the consequences of that is totally shocking to the level of delusion you team up with. Again, nobody responds to posts I make since I post basic stuff for your understanding. However you keep ignoring the precipice that pvz is no different than any other matchup where when one side slips up and messes up the build order, it is a game ending defeat at the initial part of the game. Yet, you keep talking like there is fundamentals lost on me what the FE build establishes that should tilt the tide in protoss favor. Is it stealth? No, zerg can see your build from the outset and provided there is a counter to the FE build which there is, they take it and strongarm the protoss into defeat. Is it economy? Protoss players lose a lot in the event that zerg can slip zerglings into the base as it happened on game 6. You can still keep the early natural and lose due to zerglings picking up probes and preventing them to make up for the sunken cost of the build. Is it the army? I said it again and funny enough you have repeated in your last post protoss has only ~9 zealots while zerg can have +15 hydralisks at 7:42-8:46 minute mark. This is unsustainable in army composition perspective. Like I said: you have to prove what is exceptional about this FE build that it breaks the rules of the game to put protoss in the lead when every indication leads us to believe it is behind.
On October 30 2025 09:38 TMNT wrote:
On October 30 2025 04:54 sc2turtlepants wrote:
On October 29 2025 09:50 TMNT wrote: Firstly, in game 5 (Metropolis) and game 2 (Dominator), BOTH TIMES Snow put down 4 cannons on top of the 2 he already had. So how come you accuse him of greed in game 2 and but praise him in game 5?
imgur doesn't wanna let me upload images, but you claiming the 2+2 warping cannons Snow had when hydras arrived on Dominator = the 5 cannons he had up (plus the one he cancelled right before it finished, but could have had) on Metropolis before hydras left soma's base is pure comedy. In another comment on this thread you made the claim that zerg can just switch to droning if you build cannons and get a free eco win....well soma did just that on Metropolis and he died 5 minutes later, well after his 'free eco' had time to kick in.
Of course the rest of the game matters, that's what the rest of us have been saying! That was the only notable DT in the series and it did well, but they were still within 8 supply shortly before Snow pushed out so it wasn't exactly game-ending. You're acting like hydra busts are broken and in a rock-paper-scissors match zerg wins every time while ignoring the game in this very series which disproves your claims.
Keeping up with your mental gymnastics is hurting my brain. See you guys in the next ASL thread!
In this game: - Snow is already ahead thanks to the opening (12 Nexus) - Snow is even more ahead thanks to the 4 Zealot pressure - Snow is far ahead after the DT harass
All this is not true. All that zerg sees is FE and sunk cost while zerg is mobile.
Actually, no one has to prove anything to someone who doesn't even play the game and thus has no concrete experience which informs their opinion. It's actually you who has to provide proof of why 2 Gate (or anything else) is actually viable and not your personal pipe dream when every pro Protoss whose livelihood depends on their ability to win the game is doing FE.
You see all progamers going for FE in PvZ and you think: "Well, all progamers must be misinformed, they didn't think of my totally original idea of going 2 Gate" (which has been phased out early in BW's professional meta).
If you had ever played the game at even a middling amateur level, you would know that 2 Gate openings are even more easily abused by Z and are effectively all-in cheese against Zergs who have two brain cells to rub together. But, because you are a living, breathing example of the Dunning-Kruger effect, you speak with absolute confidence about things you have close to 0 understanding of, and have 0 ability to budge off of your misaligned ideas. Tactfully avoiding any introspection or requests of proof, you fall back on "I'm 40 years old and don't play the game, but I spent a hundred hours of watching Pro VODs (which I didn't understand), so that means my ideas are sound and revolutionary."
If you watched 100 hours of people building houses with Korean commentary, would you feel comfortable giving people advice on how to build a house despite never picking up a hammer or drafting a blue print? Given your behavior on TL, I imagine you'd be telling people that they are stupid for building roofs after walls because that requires people to climb ladders, which isn't safe.
Okay, you have literally argued with a straw man. I still ask the same question, but no personal attacks please: where exactly in the game does FE put you ahead? A starcraft answer please and please start with premises your friend has provided: 7:42-8:42 you only have 9 zealots and are trying to defend against 15 hydralisks. Go on, I beg you. PS: I'm not responding to section in bold eventhough it is also incorrect just to keep attention on the first argument. Let's shoot ourselves in the foot Bisu totally annihilated soma with this build in their 3rd game for the sake of the argument. Let's hide it from our attention eventhough how absurd it would be trying to find that very answer. Go on, school me on that. Oh, and mind you you are not challenging my intellect, but also Bisu, the creator of modern pvz.
On October 29 2025 23:32 evilfatsh1t wrote: theres absolutely nothing close to being high level found in any of your posts mate. its not even level. just completely lopsided capsizing mess
Yes, and you are stuck discussing balance with no understanding why you just don't have the army numbers to counter a single hatchery hydralisk rush. It couldn't get more stupid than this. PS: what is lopsided capsizing? Is this AI speaking?
last i checked hydra busts didnt come out of one hatchery.
your entire argument is that pvz should be played off a 2 gate opening because it obviously produces enough units to deal with a hydra bust. well no fucking shit.
the problem is when zerg sees you going 2 gates they dont hydra bust anymore. are you incapable of understanding that players react to certain things? why in the world would a zerg hydra bust a protoss that opened with 2 gates
?????????
what an absolute clown. stop embarrassing yourself and just shut up seriously
Even if he doesn't have that intention (in that case he's just a very weird person), the way he posts has turned himself into a troll or a ragebaiter.
Sometimes I respond to him because I'm curious to decipher his language. Otherwise there's no value in it. As you see most people by now are just ignoring his posts. But sometimes we have new members or long time no see posters returning to the forum, so they fall into the trap, just like you did here.
If mods don't do anything about this guy, it's best everyone just ignores him.
Its alarming you are holding sides with a person whose belief is that during kespa era players were encouraged to matchfix and he already says he has no proof, but the fact he is blinded to the consequences of that is totally shocking to the level of delusion you team up with. Again, nobody responds to posts I make since I post basic stuff for your understanding. However you keep ignoring the precipice that pvz is no different than any other matchup where when one side slips up and messes up the build order, it is a game ending defeat at the initial part of the game. Yet, you keep talking like there is fundamentals lost on me what the FE build establishes that should tilt the tide in protoss favor. Is it stealth? No, zerg can see your build from the outset and provided there is a counter to the FE build which there is, they take it and strongarm the protoss into defeat. Is it economy? Protoss players lose a lot in the event that zerg can slip zerglings into the base as it happened on game 6. You can still keep the early natural and lose due to zerglings picking up probes and preventing them to make up for the sunken cost of the build. Is it the army? I said it again and funny enough you have repeated in your last post protoss has only ~9 zealots while zerg can have +15 hydralisks at 7:42-8:46 minute mark. This is unsustainable in army composition perspective. Like I said: you have to prove what is exceptional about this FE build that it breaks the rules of the game to put protoss in the lead when every indication leads us to believe it is behind.
On October 30 2025 09:38 TMNT wrote:
On October 30 2025 04:54 sc2turtlepants wrote:
On October 29 2025 09:50 TMNT wrote: Firstly, in game 5 (Metropolis) and game 2 (Dominator), BOTH TIMES Snow put down 4 cannons on top of the 2 he already had. So how come you accuse him of greed in game 2 and but praise him in game 5?
imgur doesn't wanna let me upload images, but you claiming the 2+2 warping cannons Snow had when hydras arrived on Dominator = the 5 cannons he had up (plus the one he cancelled right before it finished, but could have had) on Metropolis before hydras left soma's base is pure comedy. In another comment on this thread you made the claim that zerg can just switch to droning if you build cannons and get a free eco win....well soma did just that on Metropolis and he died 5 minutes later, well after his 'free eco' had time to kick in.
Of course the rest of the game matters, that's what the rest of us have been saying! That was the only notable DT in the series and it did well, but they were still within 8 supply shortly before Snow pushed out so it wasn't exactly game-ending. You're acting like hydra busts are broken and in a rock-paper-scissors match zerg wins every time while ignoring the game in this very series which disproves your claims.
Keeping up with your mental gymnastics is hurting my brain. See you guys in the next ASL thread!
In this game: - Snow is already ahead thanks to the opening (12 Nexus) - Snow is even more ahead thanks to the 4 Zealot pressure - Snow is far ahead after the DT harass
All this is not true. All that zerg sees is FE and sunk cost while zerg is mobile.
Actually, no one has to prove anything to someone who doesn't even play the game and thus has no concrete experience which informs their opinion. It's actually you who has to provide proof of why 2 Gate (or anything else) is actually viable and not your personal pipe dream when every pro Protoss whose livelihood depends on their ability to win the game is doing FE.
You see all progamers going for FE in PvZ and you think: "Well, all progamers must be misinformed, they didn't think of my totally original idea of going 2 Gate" (which has been phased out early in BW's professional meta).
If you had ever played the game at even a middling amateur level, you would know that 2 Gate openings are even more easily abused by Z and are effectively all-in cheese against Zergs who have two brain cells to rub together. But, because you are a living, breathing example of the Dunning-Kruger effect, you speak with absolute confidence about things you have close to 0 understanding of, and have 0 ability to budge off of your misaligned ideas. Tactfully avoiding any introspection or requests of proof, you fall back on "I'm 40 years old and don't play the game, but I spent a hundred hours of watching Pro VODs (which I didn't understand), so that means my ideas are sound and revolutionary."
If you watched 100 hours of people building houses with Korean commentary, would you feel comfortable giving people advice on how to build a house despite never picking up a hammer or drafting a blue print? Given your behavior on TL, I imagine you'd be telling people that they are stupid for building roofs after walls because that requires people to climb ladders, which isn't safe.
Okay, you have literally argued with a straw man. I still ask the same question, but no personal attacks please: where exactly in the game does FE put you ahead? A starcraft answer please and please start with premises your friend has provided: 7:42-8:42 you only have 9 zealots and are trying to defend against 15 hydralisks. Go on, I beg you.
You have a 2 gas, 2 mineral economy which allows you to adapt to Zerg's tech which 1 mineral line, which a 1 gas economy would not allow you to do (since you can't afford +1 Air, +1 Ground, Zealot Speed, Templar Archives, and a Stargate off of 1 base economy). You also have secured valuable ground on the map early on, which would be nearly impossible to do without Templar or Reaver if you start on a 1 base hold-ramp scenario. Also, given sufficient but relatively equal numbers, Hydralisks will win a fight against Zealots due to kiting micro. Not that it matters, since any Zerg who is not stupid will likely tech to Muta or Lurker with sim city defense against your shitty 2 Gate opener, thereby neutering any numbers advantage you think you may have built with a 2 Gate opener.
Unlike you, I have played 2 Gate in PvZ dozens of time, with wins and losses both on ladder and in relatively low-level tournaments, all of which have exposed me to these issues and dynamics personally.
Can I see some proof from your end that this approach would work? Only replays and VODs, please; if you want some from me, I have plenty.
ETA: ^ I posted that before I saw your addition, yes I saw this one-off game done once in the past year where the Protoss barely made it "work" (though, notably, not at all how you described it to work). I'd need to see more than one data point to humor this idea.
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/kYeSj1v.png)
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![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/1hNPnN6.jpeg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/luYZZ0S.jpeg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/NeWFzzh.jpeg)
