|
Recommended Games+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [Game 1] +Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 1?Yes (21) 55% No (12) 32% If you have time (5) 13% 38 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 1? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 2?No (18) 72% Yes (6) 24% If you have time (1) 4% 25 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 2? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 3?Yes (21) 81% If you have time (3) 12% No (2) 8% 26 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 3? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 4?No (16) 76% Yes (5) 24% If you have time (0) 0% 21 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 4? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 5?Yes (16) 70% If you have time (4) 17% No (3) 13% 23 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 5? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 6?Yes (13) 50% No (9) 35% If you have time (4) 15% 26 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 6? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 7?If you have time (12) 52% No (6) 26% Yes (5) 22% 23 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 7? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
|
On October 31 2025 01:10 TMNT wrote:
Very few progamers publicly balance "whine". The most notable whiner is only Stork. Best they would do in terms of discussing balance is about maps.
It's not a good look in Korean culture to do so in the view of the public. It's always better to respect the others, be modest and say "sorry, my bad, I will work harder, fighting" (source: I worked there for two years. It's fucking weird sometimes when it's not even your fault but you have to say sorry, especially to your boss).
For these players, they also don't want to create a conflict against their daily colleagues and practice partners of the other races lol. Would look very bad on Snow if after losing to Soma he blamed hydra bust bullshit lol.
Also wtf do calm and ggaemo have anything to do here. Are you referring to the video when they whined with Soulkey (tongue in cheek manner) about Zerg not being able to queue larvae lol?
OR
snow is right and you are not
who to beliveve, hmm
|
On October 31 2025 01:20 Soft_General_5023 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2025 01:10 TMNT wrote:
Very few progamers publicly balance "whine". The most notable whiner is only Stork. Best they would do in terms of discussing balance is about maps.
It's not a good look in Korean culture to do so in the view of the public. It's always better to respect the others, be modest and say "sorry, my bad, I will work harder, fighting" (source: I worked there for two years. It's fucking weird sometimes when it's not even your fault but you have to say sorry, especially to your boss).
For these players, they also don't want to create a conflict against their daily colleagues and practice partners of the other races lol. Would look very bad on Snow if after losing to Soma he blamed hydra bust bullshit lol.
Also wtf do calm and ggaemo have anything to do here. Are you referring to the video when they whined with Soulkey (tongue in cheek manner) about Zerg not being able to queue larvae lol? OR snow is right and you are not who to beliveve, hmm
So why don't you believe Stork then?
P.S: it doesn't matter even if he played better and won. The problem of the matchup is still right there. That he can defend the hydra bust bs doesn't mean it's fair for him to have to deal with that in the first place anyway.
|
On October 31 2025 01:20 Soft_General_5023 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2025 01:10 TMNT wrote:
Very few progamers publicly balance "whine". The most notable whiner is only Stork. Best they would do in terms of discussing balance is about maps.
It's not a good look in Korean culture to do so in the view of the public. It's always better to respect the others, be modest and say "sorry, my bad, I will work harder, fighting" (source: I worked there for two years. It's fucking weird sometimes when it's not even your fault but you have to say sorry, especially to your boss).
For these players, they also don't want to create a conflict against their daily colleagues and practice partners of the other races lol. Would look very bad on Snow if after losing to Soma he blamed hydra bust bullshit lol.
Also wtf do calm and ggaemo have anything to do here. Are you referring to the video when they whined with Soulkey (tongue in cheek manner) about Zerg not being able to queue larvae lol? OR snow is right and you are not who to beliveve, hmm
what ???? TMNT wrong ? no way man what are u talking about it ?
|
On October 31 2025 00:52 Rainalcar wrote:
Sziky et al this isn't only about this final. It's about 20+ years, clearly reflected in overall race success.
yes i know but then why will be not a single balance patch? i mean when remastered came out they were asked( Koreans ) they said no, ok of course like Bonyth said because they dont wanna break system and etc bug and etc or just maybe foreigner wrong ? Koreans right ? it is impossible ?
|
Some of the comments on here are truly disgusting.
Soma ain't some random chump who got here via abusing his race.
|
What do you mean foreigners wrong vs Koreans right? You think only foreigners or TL say stuff about balance? Koreans talk about imbalances as much as us.
"Tesagi" is a fucking Korean word lol.
|
On October 31 2025 01:49 TMNT wrote:
What do you mean foreigners wrong vs Koreans right? You think only foreigners or TL say stuff about balance? Koreans talk about imbalances as much as us.
"Tesagi" is a fucking Korean word lol.
you are right but the most Koreans on top level ( not even ony pros ) say basically imbalanced and etc not really exist ( i even ask many times in the past on ladder from pros or semi pros ''what do you think '' ) i already talked throught my clan leader Cruiser about this ( in theory even Snow say some things to me through Cruiser at least he said this ) Maybe i am an idiot and etc how i belive this but basically i just said what they said..
|
On October 30 2025 18:58 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2025 03:45 Maks wrote:On October 29 2025 23:06 Dante08 wrote:On October 29 2025 21:12 Maks wrote:
This is why I’ve never seen Flash as the strongest player in StarCraft history. It’s impossible to tell where his skill ends and Terran’s dominance begins. Best Terran of all time? Yes. Best player? That’s debatable. Ok this has got to be a troll post The reality is that you can’t judge a player’s skill without considering race balance. For example, why should I consider Flash a stronger player than Bisu if Flash never had to deal with insane PvZ matchup where Protoss had only a 45% win rate? Ok I can’t even begin to contemplate how you arrived at this conclusion other than pure balance whine. Flash is statistically the best player pre and post Kespa and his dominance extends to non-tournament games as well where he often has more than 70% winrate. If Terran is so strong explain why no other player matches his winrate?
I’m not sure I fully understand your question. Are you asking why the strongest Terran player has a higher win rate than weaker Terran players?
The answer is straightforward: the player who represents the strongest race and is its strongest exponent will naturally have the highest win rate. In this case, Terran is the strongest race, and Flash is that player.
But there’s more to it. Flash doesn’t just benefit from interracial balance—he also benefits from the fact that PvP and especially ZvZ matchups are far more volatile and luck-dependent. This makes it much harder for top Protoss and Zerg players to consistently dominate, compared to top Terrans in TvT, where luck plays a far smaller role.
Given all these factors, it would be highly unusual—if not outright bizarre—if Zerg, let alone Protoss, led in win rates or titles.
|
On October 30 2025 06:56 Rainalcar wrote:
Speaking of the greatest player among all races makes no sense. Only per race. Flash is indeed the greatest terran, but it's impossible to know how good he would be if he had played Z or P. Historically, based on success alone, there is a clear pattern of T>Z>>P. Look at KCM too - it is a P disaster.
I’ve just checked the results, and I’m not surprised at all. Terran and Zerg dominate, while Protoss are almost nowhere to be found among the winners.
From 2017 to 2025, 35 KCM Race Survival tournaments were held. The victories broke down as follows:
Zerg: 16 wins
Terran: 15 wins
Protoss: 4 wins
And yet, some people still claim that Protoss isn’t the weakest race, and that it’s all just about skill and map pool?😊
|
On October 31 2025 07:39 Maks wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2025 06:56 Rainalcar wrote:
Speaking of the greatest player among all races makes no sense. Only per race. Flash is indeed the greatest terran, but it's impossible to know how good he would be if he had played Z or P. Historically, based on success alone, there is a clear pattern of T>Z>>P. Look at KCM too - it is a P disaster.
I’ve just checked the results, and I’m not surprised at all. Terran and Zerg dominate, while Protoss are almost nowhere to be found among the winners. From 2017 to 2025, 35 KCM Race Survival tournaments were held. The victories broke down as follows: Zerg: 16 wins Terran: 15 wins Protoss: 4 wins And yet, some people still claim that Protoss isn’t the weakest race, and that it’s all just about skill and map pool?😊
Lets expand this a little bit more.
How many appearances in tournament Finals by protoss?
How many appearances in tournament Semi-Finals?
How many Semi-finals wins does protoss have?
What is the differences between a semi-final win and a finals win? Aren't both Semi-finals and finals the same Best of size?
If the inclusion of semi-finals changes the ratio then we can draw new conclusions. If the ratio stays the exact same as the ratios presented using only finals data, then we can stick to the conclusion.
About KCM.
If we exclude the FlaSh era in KCM, what are the numbers like? How many times did protoss make it to KCM finals?
Also some other data from KCM(excluding 2025 because nobody updates liquipedia data anymore):
Protoss finals appearances in KCM: 16
Protoss finals victories in KCM: 4
Protoss finals record vs zerg: 0W 9L
Protoss finals record vs terran: 4W 3L
Terran final appearances in KCM: 21
Terran Finals victories in KCM: 15
Terran finals record vs Zerg: 11W 4L
Terran finals record vs Protoss: 3W 4L
note: for kcm we have to consider some weeks have lopsided line-ups, which heavily affects results.
|
On October 31 2025 01:10 TMNT wrote:
Very few progamers publicly balance "whine". The most notable whiner is only Stork. Best they would do in terms of discussing balance is about maps.
The idea of "fixing" the game through map design instead of balance changes is nothing new. It might work if there were only two races—say, Terran and Zerg. Even though Terran dominates on standard maps, you could always tweak the map pool with maps like Gold Rush, Outsider, Sparkle, Roaring Currents, or Taebaek Mountains to shake things up.
But with three races, it turns into chaos. Take Roaring Currents from last season: it’s decent for ZvT, but in ASL, Protoss lost every game to Zerg on it. Balancing one matchup without wrecking the others is nearly impossible.
|
On October 31 2025 00:04 sas.Sziky wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2025 23:49 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
we have to keep in mind that we can not judge FlaSh's PvZ the same as we can judge for example Bisu's PvZ. One has dedicated themselves to mastering Protoss, and the other to mastering Terran. If we are to judge them fairly, we would need FlaSh to play thousands of Protoss games and build the same amount of experience on Protoss as Bisu has. Only then, when we have similar amounts of experience on the same race from both players can we judge whether FlaSh would do better than Bisu. The only person who had actually put a lot of effort, as a terran player, to learn protoss is Light, and Light only spent 3 months playing Protoss back in 2019. And he failed to qualify for KSL with his protoss because ForGG overperformed. But based on his play at the time Light was actually close to a Stork level Protoss.
But Light right after losing the KSL qualifiers, went on to become the 2nd best Terran and would go on to win KSL4 using his anti-protoss expertise from those three months of being a Protoss himself. btw i know you dont like me but If I'm not mistaken, you are Korean lets say please for thesegenius What do Koreans say to about balance. And how what is the differense beetwen a 30 years old avarage 400apm guy and a 32 years old 300apm guy i mean i saw many times u said good things about ''sport things '' so :D
I am not Korean, but I sometimes talk with pros.
Most say Zerg is strongest because, unlike terran and protoss, saving larvae in certain situations allows for very fast switches in units/tech to counter something a toss or terran is doing. Neither terran or protoss have this ability to very quickly adjust. Zerg can adjust its optimizations, and/or decide to react/abuse a terran's or protoss' choices much faster. So there's a bit more decision making freedom for zerg than for protoss and terran which are more locked into the choices they have already made.
Protoss and terran are considered about equal with a slight advantage for Protoss.
What sets Soma apart however is that Soma has worked out and mastered the perfect timings for attacks. By optimizing more than the others, he's managed to get even more exact timing attacks, under certain conditions, that allow him to hydra bust better than anyone else.
|
To be honest, I've never understood why the default assumption of some people is that BW is balanced. They stick to that idea and wriggle their arguments to fit the assumption.
The default assumption must be that all non-mirror matchups are inherently not balanced. Why? Very simple: on a given map, a mirror matchup is without a doubt absolutely balanced, so a non-mirror matchup has to be not balanced no matter what, because P#Z#T. Now whether it is P>Z or Z>P, we can just look at the results for an indication. And all results to date indicate that Z>P. So there it is, your default assumption. In philosophy, it's called Occam's razor: "of two competing theories, the simpler explanation of an entity is to be preferred".
It's the job of the denials to disprove it if they want to, by looking for the evidences that point to the contrary. Unfortunately, as stated above, every piece of stats out there in the past 25 years supports the default assumption.
And then on top of that (the statistics), the gameplay point of view also supports it (I guess no need to explain again).
It actually would take a monumental effort to prove that P=Z because you have to go through every available evidence and explain why they are not valid. It's baffling from a logic point of view to start from the assumption that P=Z. The people who have P=Z as a starting point of their thought can only be either biased (because of fandom, or they play Z) or just ignorant.
|
On October 31 2025 09:50 TMNT wrote:To be honest, I've never understood why the default assumption of some people is that BW is balanced. They stick to that idea and wriggle their arguments to fit the assumption. The default assumption must be that all non-mirror matchups are inherently not balanced. Why? Very simple: on a given map, a mirror matchup is without a doubt absolutely balanced, so a non-mirror matchup has to be not balanced no matter what, because P#Z#T. Now whether it is P>Z or Z<P, we can just look at the results for an indication. And all results to date indicate that Z>P. So there it is, your default assumption. In philosophy, it's called Occam's razor: "of two competing theories, the simpler explanation of an entity is to be preferred". It's the job of the denials to disprove it if they want to, by looking for the evidences that point to the contrary. Unfortunately, as stated above, every piece of stats out there in the past 25 years supports the default assumption. And then on top of that (the statistics), the gameplay point of view also supports it (I guess no need to explain again). It actually would take a monumental effort to prove that P=Z because you have to go through every available evidence and explain why they are not valid. It's baffling from a logic point of view to start from the assumption that P=Z. The people who have P=Z as a starting point of their thought can only be either biased (because of fandom, or they play Z) or just ignorant.
A skill/concept many in this thread should contemplate applying in this discussion is to try and argue against their own belief. If I believe z>p, I should consiser argueing that p=z in order to more deeply understand not just the notion I don't believe in, but also my own notion, in order to more effectively be capable of supporting it, but also to be more capable of deconstructing the opposing belief.
Folks should also consider that two people holding two opposing beliefs does not mean there has to be antagonism. It is possible to have opposing views and to test, defend, or critique these views, and remain calm, collected and not have to resort to logical fallacies.
|
On October 31 2025 07:58 Maks wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2025 01:10 TMNT wrote:
Very few progamers publicly balance "whine". The most notable whiner is only Stork. Best they would do in terms of discussing balance is about maps. The idea of "fixing" the game through map design instead of balance changes is nothing new. It might work if there were only two races—say, Terran and Zerg. Even though Terran dominates on standard maps, you could always tweak the map pool with maps like Gold Rush, Outsider, Sparkle, Roaring Currents, or Taebaek Mountains to shake things up. But with three races, it turns into chaos. Take Roaring Currents from last season: it’s decent for ZvT, but in ASL, Protoss lost every game to Zerg on it. Balancing one matchup without wrecking the others is nearly impossible.
No. If you look at the progression of players experience, good players beat less knowledgeable players on the regular. That makes the map quite the medium of expression of their skill sets. There has not been a single shake up on the map.
|
On October 31 2025 09:50 TMNT wrote:To be honest, I've never understood why the default assumption of some people is that BW is balanced. They stick to that idea and wriggle their arguments to fit the assumption. The default assumption must be that all non-mirror matchups are inherently not balanced. Why? Very simple: on a given map, a mirror matchup is without a doubt absolutely balanced, so a non-mirror matchup has to be not balanced no matter what, because P#Z#T. Now whether it is P>Z or Z<P, we can just look at the results for an indication. And all results to date indicate that Z>P. So there it is, your default assumption. In philosophy, it's called Occam's razor: "of two competing theories, the simpler explanation of an entity is to be preferred". It's the job of the denials to disprove it if they want to, by looking for the evidences that point to the contrary. Unfortunately, as stated above, every piece of stats out there in the past 25 years supports the default assumption. And then on top of that (the statistics), the gameplay point of view also supports it (I guess no need to explain again). It actually would take a monumental effort to prove that P=Z because you have to go through every available evidence and explain why they are not valid. It's baffling from a logic point of view to start from the assumption that P=Z. The people who have P=Z as a starting point of their thought can only be either biased (because of fandom, or they play Z) or just ignorant.
You could also be oblivious to the fact that map control is the one thing you shouldn't give to zerg in a pvz matchup. Yet you give it so openly when you open with FE. Zerg can fasttrack their production however protoss is more subtle, but this isn't how you play. Protoss is about subterfuge, stealth, hallucinations, expansions where zerg does not expect you to be, but you signal it wide open with that stupid forge and that idiotically forwardly placed gateway. If protoss was about simcity, you would have siege tanks and bunkers. Protoss has not. However it has something better. You should adapt rather than blame.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
On October 31 2025 10:22 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2025 09:50 TMNT wrote:To be honest, I've never understood why the default assumption of some people is that BW is balanced. They stick to that idea and wriggle their arguments to fit the assumption. The default assumption must be that all non-mirror matchups are inherently not balanced. Why? Very simple: on a given map, a mirror matchup is without a doubt absolutely balanced, so a non-mirror matchup has to be not balanced no matter what, because P#Z#T. Now whether it is P>Z or Z<P, we can just look at the results for an indication. And all results to date indicate that Z>P. So there it is, your default assumption. In philosophy, it's called Occam's razor: "of two competing theories, the simpler explanation of an entity is to be preferred". It's the job of the denials to disprove it if they want to, by looking for the evidences that point to the contrary. Unfortunately, as stated above, every piece of stats out there in the past 25 years supports the default assumption. And then on top of that (the statistics), the gameplay point of view also supports it (I guess no need to explain again). It actually would take a monumental effort to prove that P=Z because you have to go through every available evidence and explain why they are not valid. It's baffling from a logic point of view to start from the assumption that P=Z. The people who have P=Z as a starting point of their thought can only be either biased (because of fandom, or they play Z) or just ignorant. You could also be oblivious to the fact that map control is the one thing you shouldn't give to zerg in a pvz matchup. Yet you give it so openly when you open with FE. Zerg can fasttrack their production however protoss is more subtle, but this isn't how you play. Protoss is about subterfuge, stealth, hallucinations, expansions where zerg does not expect you to be, but you signal it wide open with that stupid forge and that idiotically forwardly placed gateway. If protoss was about simcity, you would have siege tanks and bunkers. Protoss has not. However it has something better. You should adapt rather than blame.
just mass report this clown lol. guy thinks he can reinvent the matchup by pretending 25 years of sc didnt happen
|
On October 31 2025 09:50 TMNT wrote:
To be honest, I've never understood why the default assumption of some people is that BW is balanced.
When people say StarCraft is balanced, I think they really mean that balance depends on the map pool and the current meta—not that the game has some inherent, abstract fairness.
But here’s the thing: over two and a half decades, no matter how much the maps or meta have shifted, the hierarchy has stayed roughly the same. Terran remains the strongest race, Zerg sits in the middle, and Protoss? Still the weakest.
|
stupid forge and that idiotically forwardly placed gateway
Probably this part gets him the ban.
However, the real crime is the word subterfuge.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
