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Recommended Games+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [Game 1] +Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 1?Yes (18) 53% No (12) 35% If you have time (4) 12% 34 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 1? (Vote): Yes
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Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 2?No (16) 76% Yes (4) 19% If you have time (1) 5% 21 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 2? (Vote): Yes
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Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 3?Yes (19) 83% If you have time (3) 13% No (1) 4% 23 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 3? (Vote): Yes
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Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 4?No (15) 79% Yes (4) 21% If you have time (0) 0% 19 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 4? (Vote): Yes
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Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 5?Yes (15) 71% If you have time (4) 19% No (2) 10% 21 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 5? (Vote): Yes
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Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 6?Yes (11) 46% No (9) 38% If you have time (4) 17% 24 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 6? (Vote): Yes
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Poll: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 7?If you have time (11) 50% No (6) 27% Yes (5) 23% 22 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Snow Game 7? (Vote): Yes
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On October 30 2025 11:09 mtcn77 wrote:
Bisu actually defeated soma so hard in that game, soma alt f4'ed in in the end, lol.
Yea I've seen people alt+QQ to 5 Pool also, doesn't make it an actually viable long-term approach to winning in Starcraft on a professional level consistently. This is why "meta" exists; the second Bisu starts doing 2 Gate every game is the same moment where his professional PvZ career will quickly die and end, because when it is a known and expected option, it is hard-countered by 2001-tier ZvP knowledge and understanding.
Perhaps you would benefit from watching the OSL finals/semi-finals in chronological succession to see the development of the "meta" and thus the communal understanding of what works, doesn't work, and why (which you clearly lack).
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On October 30 2025 11:05 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2025 10:57 mtcn77 wrote:On October 30 2025 10:47 Jealous wrote:On October 30 2025 10:06 mtcn77 wrote:On October 30 2025 02:42 TMNT wrote:On October 30 2025 00:15 evilfatsh1t wrote:On October 29 2025 23:45 mtcn77 wrote:On October 29 2025 23:32 evilfatsh1t wrote:
theres absolutely nothing close to being high level found in any of your posts mate. its not even level. just completely lopsided capsizing mess Yes, and you are stuck discussing balance with no understanding why you just don't have the army numbers to counter a single hatchery hydralisk rush. It couldn't get more stupid than this. PS: what is lopsided capsizing? Is this AI speaking? last i checked hydra busts didnt come out of one hatchery. your entire argument is that pvz should be played off a 2 gate opening because it obviously produces enough units to deal with a hydra bust. well no fucking shit. the problem is when zerg sees you going 2 gates they dont hydra bust anymore. are you incapable of understanding that players react to certain things? why in the world would a zerg hydra bust a protoss that opened with 2 gates ????????? what an absolute clown. stop embarrassing yourself and just shut up seriously Even if he doesn't have that intention (in that case he's just a very weird person), the way he posts has turned himself into a troll or a ragebaiter. Sometimes I respond to him because I'm curious to decipher his language. Otherwise there's no value in it. As you see most people by now are just ignoring his posts. But sometimes we have new members or long time no see posters returning to the forum, so they fall into the trap, just like you did here. If mods don't do anything about this guy, it's best everyone just ignores him. Its alarming you are holding sides with a person whose belief is that during kespa era players were encouraged to matchfix and he already says he has no proof, but the fact he is blinded to the consequences of that is totally shocking to the level of delusion you team up with. Again, nobody responds to posts I make since I post basic stuff for your understanding. However you keep ignoring the precipice that pvz is no different than any other matchup where when one side slips up and messes up the build order, it is a game ending defeat at the initial part of the game. Yet, you keep talking like there is fundamentals lost on me what the FE build establishes that should tilt the tide in protoss favor. Is it stealth? No, zerg can see your build from the outset and provided there is a counter to the FE build which there is, they take it and strongarm the protoss into defeat. Is it economy? Protoss players lose a lot in the event that zerg can slip zerglings into the base as it happened on game 6. You can still keep the early natural and lose due to zerglings picking up probes and preventing them to make up for the sunken cost of the build. Is it the army? I said it again and funny enough you have repeated in your last post protoss has only ~9 zealots while zerg can have +15 hydralisks at 7:42-8:46 minute mark. This is unsustainable in army composition perspective. Like I said: you have to prove what is exceptional about this FE build that it breaks the rules of the game to put protoss in the lead when every indication leads us to believe it is behind. On October 30 2025 09:38 TMNT wrote:On October 30 2025 04:54 sc2turtlepants wrote:On October 29 2025 09:50 TMNT wrote:
Firstly, in game 5 (Metropolis) and game 2 (Dominator), BOTH TIMES Snow put down 4 cannons on top of the 2 he already had. So how come you accuse him of greed in game 2 and but praise him in game 5? imgur doesn't wanna let me upload images, but you claiming the 2+2 warping cannons Snow had when hydras arrived on Dominator = the 5 cannons he had up (plus the one he cancelled right before it finished, but could have had) on Metropolis before hydras left soma's base is pure comedy. In another comment on this thread you made the claim that zerg can just switch to droning if you build cannons and get a free eco win....well soma did just that on Metropolis and he died 5 minutes later, well after his 'free eco' had time to kick in. Of course the rest of the game matters, that's what the rest of us have been saying! That was the only notable DT in the series and it did well, but they were still within 8 supply shortly before Snow pushed out so it wasn't exactly game-ending. You're acting like hydra busts are broken and in a rock-paper-scissors match zerg wins every time while ignoring the game in this very series which disproves your claims. Keeping up with your mental gymnastics is hurting my brain. See you guys in the next ASL thread! In this game: - Snow is already ahead thanks to the opening (12 Nexus)- Snow is even more ahead thanks to the 4 Zealot pressure - Snow is far ahead after the DT harass All this is not true. All that zerg sees is FE and sunk cost while zerg is mobile. Actually, no one has to prove anything to someone who doesn't even play the game and thus has no concrete experience which informs their opinion. It's actually you who has to provide proof of why 2 Gate (or anything else) is actually viable and not your personal pipe dream when every pro Protoss whose livelihood depends on their ability to win the game is doing FE. You see all progamers going for FE in PvZ and you think: "Well, all progamers must be misinformed, they didn't think of my totally original idea of going 2 Gate" (which has been phased out early in BW's professional meta). If you had ever played the game at even a middling amateur level, you would know that 2 Gate openings are even more easily abused by Z and are effectively all-in cheese against Zergs who have two brain cells to rub together. But, because you are a living, breathing example of the Dunning-Kruger effect, you speak with absolute confidence about things you have close to 0 understanding of, and have 0 ability to budge off of your misaligned ideas. Tactfully avoiding any introspection or requests of proof, you fall back on "I'm 40 years old and don't play the game, but I spent a hundred hours of watching Pro VODs (which I didn't understand), so that means my ideas are sound and revolutionary." If you watched 100 hours of people building houses with Korean commentary, would you feel comfortable giving people advice on how to build a house despite never picking up a hammer or drafting a blue print? Given your behavior on TL, I imagine you'd be telling people that they are stupid for building roofs after walls because that requires people to climb ladders, which isn't safe. Okay, you have literally argued with a straw man. I still ask the same question, but no personal attacks please: where exactly in the game does FE put you ahead? A starcraft answer please and please start with premises your friend has provided: 7:42-8:42 you only have 9 zealots and are trying to defend against 15 hydralisks. Go on, I beg you. ETA: ^ I posted that before I saw your addition, yes I saw this one-off game done once in the past year where the Protoss barely made it "work" (though, notably, not at all how you described it to work). I'd need to see more than one data point to humor this idea.
Not before you say you are sorry I proved you wrong. Honestly it is not my responsibility to teach you what you know to be false is indeed true. You asked, I provided. Say thanks and I'm sorry, or I don't continue going out of my way to prove what proof is available.
At least you are not a troll, like the rest of the counterarguers here, so I salute you for that. You argue fair.
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Actually, if Flash is coming back I would love to see him just playing Protoss to see his PvZ. Literally the only one who makes the match up look like the protoss has initiative is Mini.
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Regarding the TvZ historical imbalances in favor of Terran, it looks to me that Zerg full potential bloomed later in the scene, mostly in the recent years with the polished muta micro and adjusted correct BOs which adopt and utilize it. So, the match up is way more balanced or should I say even a bit in Zerg favor (but not in a harmful for the balance way) nowadays. Which leaves PvZ as the only slightly problematic match, however, the "slightly problematic" thing is just the silver line which allows Protoss to reach quarters, semis and even finals, but unable to take it vs people who can abuse this gap perfectly
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On October 29 2025 11:06 ShowTheLights wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2025 02:36 Barneyk wrote:
It is still hard to grasp how JYJ and Royal has ASL wins when Best, Bisu, Snow, Hero doesn't lol. add soma to that list of fraud champions won with 2 hydra busts and 2 fake hydra busts into get super ahead fucking bullshit
Soma played great this entire season and has been a top tier zerg for a very long time, well deserved ASL champion.
The series was dissapointing in a lot of ways but Snow did make mistakes and had bad reads on the game whereas Soma had great reads and played much stronger.
Snow picking roaring currents as his first map and then not really having a strong plan for it was so weird to see. I thought he had something special planned and then he just didn't. There where openings for him that he didn't take.
His hydra bust defensive sim city was poor and combined with losing zealots for free and not replenishing them quick enough it just makes hydra busting easy.
I think there is a weakness to Protoss compared to T and Z at the highest level balance wise, something that is hard to fix. But among top Protoss players we also have some fumbling going on, both Snow and Best has under-performed in finals for example.
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United Kingdom1695 Posts
I was surprised at how disappointed I was by this finals. I absolutely love Snow as a player, but somehow this whole performance felt... listless. Lacking in energy, spark. I don't know. Kind of the antithesis of the last finals with Best which was such a thrill, though I was gutted by the outcome. What was missing..?
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On October 30 2025 03:45 Maks wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2025 23:06 Dante08 wrote:On October 29 2025 21:12 Maks wrote:
This is why I’ve never seen Flash as the strongest player in StarCraft history. It’s impossible to tell where his skill ends and Terran’s dominance begins. Best Terran of all time? Yes. Best player? That’s debatable. Ok this has got to be a troll post The reality is that you can’t judge a player’s skill without considering race balance. For example, why should I consider Flash a stronger player than Bisu if Flash never had to deal with insane PvZ matchup where Protoss had only a 45% win rate?
Ok I can’t even begin to contemplate how you arrived at this conclusion other than pure balance whine. Flash is statistically the best player pre and post Kespa and his dominance extends to non-tournament games as well where he often has more than 70% winrate. If Terran is so strong explain why no other player matches his winrate?
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On October 30 2025 18:58 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2025 03:45 Maks wrote:On October 29 2025 23:06 Dante08 wrote:On October 29 2025 21:12 Maks wrote:
This is why I’ve never seen Flash as the strongest player in StarCraft history. It’s impossible to tell where his skill ends and Terran’s dominance begins. Best Terran of all time? Yes. Best player? That’s debatable. Ok this has got to be a troll post The reality is that you can’t judge a player’s skill without considering race balance. For example, why should I consider Flash a stronger player than Bisu if Flash never had to deal with insane PvZ matchup where Protoss had only a 45% win rate? Ok I can’t even begin to contemplate how you arrived at this conclusion other than pure balance whine. Flash is statistically the best player pre and post Kespa and his dominance extends to non-tournament games as well where he often has more than 70% winrate. If Terran is so strong explain why no other player matches his winrate?
Simple reasoning. Flash is the best terran player, and this alone is enough to also be the best starcraft player, given how terrans have the edge over other races statistically (above 50% win rate).
Why other terrans aren't as successfull? Because someone has to be the best of their own race. Other terrans are successful enough to have more titles without Flash than whole protoss race.
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On October 30 2025 11:29 Sabu113 wrote:
Actually, if Flash is coming back I would love to see him just playing Protoss to see his PvZ. Literally the only one who makes the match up look like the protoss has initiative is Mini.
We got a preview in ASL10, and it's not so pretty. He wasn't able to hold a cross spawn 9 pool in which the first 6 lings ran to the wrong base anyway, let the lings into main, then lost a Nexus for free because he couldn't handle the multitasking and cancel in in time.
Not saying every game he might play as Protoss would be like this, but this shit is always bound to happen for Protoss every now and then. Not every race can sit behind a wall and shoot with guns.
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FlaSh has a very good protoss but it is not on the level of Best, Mini, SnOw, Rain, and Bisu. But I have seen a lot of his protoss games online and he excels at macro, optimization, movement, decision making, and timing attacks. But I have seen him struggle with delay tactics that top tosses use to slow down terran pushes. I have seen him not have crisp reaver shuttle micro in using siege tank attack cycles. His shuttle templar control also wasn't on their level. He has poor corsair control and tends to avoid corsair centric builds all together. Have never seen his carrier control so cant comment on that. All in all, FlaSh is not a well rounded protoss, but he is a very strong protoss who excels at the most important aspects.
Also SnOw just has to increase his activity and he will look a lot sharper. His decision making is solid, but there are multitasking issues when his activity is low.
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On October 30 2025 03:45 Maks wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2025 23:06 Dante08 wrote:On October 29 2025 21:12 Maks wrote:
This is why I’ve never seen Flash as the strongest player in StarCraft history. It’s impossible to tell where his skill ends and Terran’s dominance begins. Best Terran of all time? Yes. Best player? That’s debatable. Ok this has got to be a troll post The reality is that you can’t judge a player’s skill without considering race balance. For example, why should I consider Flash a stronger player than Bisu if Flash never had to deal with insane PvZ matchup where Protoss had only a 45% win rate?
i love Bisu,Jaedong and Flash ( i dont care what they race is ) . But i know its hard but when u try to be fair then: Flash best starcraft 1 player ( maybe because he is Terran ) but you also think z>p then Jaedong ( he has minimus same skill than Flash,BIsu has ) why worst than Bisu with mapple defense practice ? i mean even when Bisu almost only played ums was better then hard practicing Jaedong. But ok it is not means anything. Another question Flash,Jaedong and why better in SC2 ? i mean Bisu not played SC2 ( maybe he would be better and etc who knows) and the another example why Soulkey was so succesful in SC2 while Snow not ? that you don't recognize Flash as the best player thats simple disrespecting same as all Protoss who cant aggre that.
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we have to keep in mind that we can not judge FlaSh's PvZ the same as we can judge for example Bisu's PvZ. One has dedicated themselves to mastering Protoss, and the other to mastering Terran. If we are to judge them fairly, we would need FlaSh to play thousands of Protoss games and build the same amount of experience on Protoss as Bisu has. Only then, when we have similar amounts of experience on the same race from both players can we judge whether FlaSh would do better than Bisu. The only person who had actually put a lot of effort, as a terran player, to learn protoss is Light, and Light only spent 3 months playing Protoss back in 2019. And he failed to qualify for KSL with his protoss because ForGG overperformed. But based on his play at the time Light was actually close to a Stork level Protoss.
But Light right after losing the KSL qualifiers, went on to become the 2nd best Terran and would go on to win KSL4 using his anti-protoss expertise from those three months of being a Protoss himself.
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Pretty disappointing finals. 4-2 felt closer to 4-0. Soma was prepared for everything.
Best reaver user in the world? They weren't even a factor in this series.
Sneaky DTs? Snuffed out every time.
Mass Corsair? Mass no-care 
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On October 30 2025 23:49 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
we have to keep in mind that we can not judge FlaSh's PvZ the same as we can judge for example Bisu's PvZ. One has dedicated themselves to mastering Protoss, and the other to mastering Terran. If we are to judge them fairly, we would need FlaSh to play thousands of Protoss games and build the same amount of experience on Protoss as Bisu has. Only then, when we have similar amounts of experience on the same race from both players can we judge whether FlaSh would do better than Bisu. The only person who had actually put a lot of effort, as a terran player, to learn protoss is Light, and Light only spent 3 months playing Protoss back in 2019. And he failed to qualify for KSL with his protoss because ForGG overperformed. But based on his play at the time Light was actually close to a Stork level Protoss.
But Light right after losing the KSL qualifiers, went on to become the 2nd best Terran and would go on to win KSL4 using his anti-protoss expertise from those three months of being a Protoss himself.
btw i know you dont like me but If I'm not mistaken, you are Korean lets say please for thesegenius What do Koreans say to about balance. And how what is the differense beetwen a 30 years old avarage 400apm guy and a 32 years old 300apm guy i mean i saw many times u said good things about ''sport things '' so :D
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On October 31 2025 00:03 MountainDewJunkie wrote:Pretty disappointing finals. 4-2 felt closer to 4-0. Soma was prepared for everything. Best reaver user in the world? They weren't even a factor in this series. Sneaky DTs? Snuffed out every time. Mass Corsair? Mass no-care
i don't know how much research snow on soma but soma is really good about having enough overlords covering DT-defense when he's busting cannons/walls
should have had some sort of prepared response to this he lost 2 games almost for free because of this.
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On October 30 2025 11:12 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2025 11:09 mtcn77 wrote:
Bisu actually defeated soma so hard in that game, soma alt f4'ed in in the end, lol. Yea I've seen people alt+QQ to 5 Pool also, doesn't make it an actually viable long-term approach to winning in Starcraft on a professional level consistently. This is why "meta" exists; the second Bisu starts doing 2 Gate every game is the same moment where his professional PvZ career will quickly die and end, because when it is a known and expected option, it is hard-countered by 2001-tier ZvP knowledge and understanding. Perhaps you would benefit from watching the OSL finals/semi-finals in chronological succession to see the development of the "meta" and thus the communal understanding of what works, doesn't work, and why (which you clearly lack).
As someone who basically watched every single BW-Pro game from 2007-2011 (and played a decent few years myself), this comment resonated with me a lot. There is some wild stuff thrown around in this thread.
I remember how fun it was to possess all that knowledge back then,:what happened when and why and how it was executed by the players. I maybe watched a total of 50 games from ASL1-20 and I simply have no clue what is going on anymore.
For the finals itself. Somas play felt really strong and defined for me, while Snows play seemed to lack a clear gameplan. I do not enjoy the hydra-bust meta at all, but I feel in this case it was not the matchup that decided the outcome.
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+ balance talking genius guys lets saw what Snow said after the final on Jinjin chanel (+lets add these intervie too:Flash,Jaedong,Mini,Soulkey,Calm,Gggaemo ok Stork ) but of course he is lying he lost because ... you guys understand how ridiculus you are ? :D i already talked about the luck (thats even huge on my level) but I didn't will explain because you would not understand.
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On October 30 2025 19:27 Bonyth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2025 18:58 Dante08 wrote:On October 30 2025 03:45 Maks wrote:On October 29 2025 23:06 Dante08 wrote:On October 29 2025 21:12 Maks wrote:
This is why I’ve never seen Flash as the strongest player in StarCraft history. It’s impossible to tell where his skill ends and Terran’s dominance begins. Best Terran of all time? Yes. Best player? That’s debatable. Ok this has got to be a troll post The reality is that you can’t judge a player’s skill without considering race balance. For example, why should I consider Flash a stronger player than Bisu if Flash never had to deal with insane PvZ matchup where Protoss had only a 45% win rate? Ok I can’t even begin to contemplate how you arrived at this conclusion other than pure balance whine. Flash is statistically the best player pre and post Kespa and his dominance extends to non-tournament games as well where he often has more than 70% winrate. If Terran is so strong explain why no other player matches his winrate? Simple reasoning. Flash is the best terran player, and this alone is enough to also be the best starcraft player, given how terrans have the edge over other races statistically (above 50% win rate). Why other terrans aren't as successfull? Because someone has to be the best of their own race. Other terrans are successful enough to have more titles without Flash than whole protoss race.
sorry for this but i have expected from you at least something '' ok guys but He made many mistakes lets be fair '' both Snow,Bisu.
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Sziky et al this isn't only about this final. It's about 20+ years, clearly reflected in overall race success.
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Very few progamers publicly balance "whine". The most notable whiner is only Stork. Best they would do in terms of discussing balance is about maps.
It's not a good look in Korean culture to do so in the view of the public. It's always better to respect the others, be modest and say "sorry, my bad, I will work harder, fighting" (source: I worked there for two years. It's fucking weird sometimes when it's not even your fault but you have to say sorry, especially to your boss).
For these players, they also don't want to create a conflict against their daily colleagues and practice partners of the other races lol. Would look very bad on Snow if after losing to Soma he blamed hydra bust bullshit lol.
Also wtf do calm and ggaemo have anything to do here. Are you referring to the video when they whined with Soulkey (tongue in cheek manner) about Zerg not being able to queue larvae lol?
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EPT
