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On October 31 2025 11:05 Maks wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2025 09:50 TMNT wrote:
To be honest, I've never understood why the default assumption of some people is that BW is balanced. When people say StarCraft is balanced, I think they really mean that balance depends on the map pool and the current meta—not that the game has some inherent, abstract fairness. But here’s the thing: over two and a half decades, no matter how much the maps or meta have shifted, the hierarchy has stayed roughly the same. Terran remains the strongest race, Zerg sits in the middle, and Protoss? Still the weakest.
we have had maps that were very protoss favored, which does imply it is the map design. at some point it was decided the status quo of maps is a sesign that screws protoss over marginally.
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On October 31 2025 18:12 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2025 11:05 Maks wrote:On October 31 2025 09:50 TMNT wrote:
To be honest, I've never understood why the default assumption of some people is that BW is balanced. When people say StarCraft is balanced, I think they really mean that balance depends on the map pool and the current meta—not that the game has some inherent, abstract fairness. But here’s the thing: over two and a half decades, no matter how much the maps or meta have shifted, the hierarchy has stayed roughly the same. Terran remains the strongest race, Zerg sits in the middle, and Protoss? Still the weakest. we have had maps that were very protoss favored, which does imply it is the map design. at some point it was decided the status quo of maps is a sesign that screws protoss over marginally.
Yes. If Revolver were the Polypoid of this era, we would have had more Protoss champions.
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On October 31 2025 18:38 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2025 18:12 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On October 31 2025 11:05 Maks wrote:On October 31 2025 09:50 TMNT wrote:
To be honest, I've never understood why the default assumption of some people is that BW is balanced. When people say StarCraft is balanced, I think they really mean that balance depends on the map pool and the current meta—not that the game has some inherent, abstract fairness. But here’s the thing: over two and a half decades, no matter how much the maps or meta have shifted, the hierarchy has stayed roughly the same. Terran remains the strongest race, Zerg sits in the middle, and Protoss? Still the weakest. we have had maps that were very protoss favored, which does imply it is the map design. at some point it was decided the status quo of maps is a sesign that screws protoss over marginally. Yes. If Revolver were the Polypoid of this era, we would have had more Protoss champions.
a big problem is that ASL officials do not try to get balanced maps. They force maps that force meta changes, instead of letting the players build a meta where everything naturally balances itself with a fluid development of the meta. brute forcing maps into the pool screws over one of the three races. We need actually neutral and 50/50 maps and let players just play those maps for a season without any weird ass maps in the mix.
Radeon, Retro, Vermeer, Polypoid, Dominator, Neo Sylphid, no 2 player map because those tend to be least balanced. A simple clear cut map pool.
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United States10397 Posts
On October 31 2025 23:48 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2025 18:38 TMNT wrote:On October 31 2025 18:12 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On October 31 2025 11:05 Maks wrote:On October 31 2025 09:50 TMNT wrote:
To be honest, I've never understood why the default assumption of some people is that BW is balanced. When people say StarCraft is balanced, I think they really mean that balance depends on the map pool and the current meta—not that the game has some inherent, abstract fairness. But here’s the thing: over two and a half decades, no matter how much the maps or meta have shifted, the hierarchy has stayed roughly the same. Terran remains the strongest race, Zerg sits in the middle, and Protoss? Still the weakest. we have had maps that were very protoss favored, which does imply it is the map design. at some point it was decided the status quo of maps is a sesign that screws protoss over marginally. Yes. If Revolver were the Polypoid of this era, we would have had more Protoss champions. a big problem is that ASL officials do not try to get balanced maps. They force maps that force meta changes, instead of letting the players build a meta where everything naturally balances itself with a fluid development of the meta. brute forcing maps into the pool screws over one of the three races. We need actually neutral and 50/50 maps and let players just play those maps for a season without any weird ass maps in the mix. Radeon, Retro, Vermeer, Polypoid, Dominator, Neo Sylphid, no 2 player map because those tend to be least balanced. A simple clear cut map pool.
huh? Check eloboards. 2p maps and 3p maps are more balanced than 4p maps. Yes, it's frustrating for some matchups like gas steal in TvP, but the stats are still very balanced.
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On October 31 2025 23:48 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2025 18:38 TMNT wrote:On October 31 2025 18:12 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On October 31 2025 11:05 Maks wrote:On October 31 2025 09:50 TMNT wrote:
To be honest, I've never understood why the default assumption of some people is that BW is balanced. When people say StarCraft is balanced, I think they really mean that balance depends on the map pool and the current meta—not that the game has some inherent, abstract fairness. But here’s the thing: over two and a half decades, no matter how much the maps or meta have shifted, the hierarchy has stayed roughly the same. Terran remains the strongest race, Zerg sits in the middle, and Protoss? Still the weakest. we have had maps that were very protoss favored, which does imply it is the map design. at some point it was decided the status quo of maps is a sesign that screws protoss over marginally. Yes. If Revolver were the Polypoid of this era, we would have had more Protoss champions. a big problem is that ASL officials do not try to get balanced maps. They force maps that force meta changes, instead of letting the players build a meta where everything naturally balances itself with a fluid development of the meta. brute forcing maps into the pool screws over one of the three races. We need actually neutral and 50/50 maps and let players just play those maps for a season without any weird ass maps in the mix. Radeon, Retro, Vermeer, Polypoid, Dominator, Neo Sylphid, no 2 player map because those tend to be least balanced. A simple clear cut map pool.
Disagree. The game needs to be fun to WATCH. Weird maps are great for that. Eg Roaring Currents seems to me a map where balance can be achieved with some tweaks. But this never happens because such maps are always discarded after 1 season, and then we start from scratch again. What is really strange to me is that after 20y of map making there is very little predictable science involved in it. Ie a map is made but how game balance is going to go is still largely anyone's guess. The scene is severely lacking there.
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They can make the first step with matchup specific maps.
If they want to force meta changes, matchup specific maps for sure will at least make ZvZ more interesting.
For other matchups: for example, PvZ on Knockout seems okay (51%) but PvT seems bad (41%). So just play PvZ on it then. How hard is it really?
imo the guy who runs ASL (910) is quite incompetent. Every season he makes some joke qualifier groups, then hand picks the Ro24 group himself, and goes around making behind the scene videos for his youtube channel.
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they should make an ASL where half of the maps are picked by mtcn and the other half by TMNT
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United States10397 Posts
On November 01 2025 00:41 TMNT wrote:
They can make the first step with matchup specific maps.
If they want to force meta changes, matchup specific maps for sure will at least make ZvZ more interesting.
For other matchups: for example, PvZ on Knockout seems okay (51%) but PvT seems bad (41%). So just play PvZ on it then. How hard is it really?
imo the guy who runs ASL (910) is quite incompetent. Every season he makes some joke qualifier groups, then hand picks the Ro24 group himself, and goes around making behind the scene videos for his youtube channel.
Third World, Roaring Currents, Sparkle as ZvZ maps please.
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On October 31 2025 23:48 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2025 18:38 TMNT wrote:On October 31 2025 18:12 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On October 31 2025 11:05 Maks wrote:On October 31 2025 09:50 TMNT wrote:
To be honest, I've never understood why the default assumption of some people is that BW is balanced. When people say StarCraft is balanced, I think they really mean that balance depends on the map pool and the current meta—not that the game has some inherent, abstract fairness. But here’s the thing: over two and a half decades, no matter how much the maps or meta have shifted, the hierarchy has stayed roughly the same. Terran remains the strongest race, Zerg sits in the middle, and Protoss? Still the weakest. we have had maps that were very protoss favored, which does imply it is the map design. at some point it was decided the status quo of maps is a sesign that screws protoss over marginally. Yes. If Revolver were the Polypoid of this era, we would have had more Protoss champions. a big problem is that ASL officials do not try to get balanced maps. They force maps that force meta changes, instead of letting the players build a meta where everything naturally balances itself with a fluid development of the meta. brute forcing maps into the pool screws over one of the three races. We need actually neutral and 50/50 maps and let players just play those maps for a season without any weird ass maps in the mix. Radeon, Retro, Vermeer, Polypoid, Dominator, Neo Sylphid, no 2 player map because those tend to be least balanced. A simple clear cut map pool.
I remember back in the day, when Scan was still active on this forum, he commented on Jukado's map Clay Fields, that he disliked standard symmetrical spawns 4p maps, saying that they are "boring".
It seems to be a common sentiment amongst the Korean pros too. In the 21 seasons of ASL, in additional to KeSPA maps like Arcadia 2, Circuit Breaker, Eye of the Storm, Andromeda, Neo Ground Zero, Neo Arkanoid and Troy (SE), only the following perfectly symmetrical 4 player maps are introduced: Optimizer, Blockchain, Revolver, Metaverse, Radeon, KICK BACK, KnockOut (which itself is a reinterpretation of Circuit Breaker), for a total of 7 new maps.
So there are a lot of factors against a bog standard symmetrical 4 player map here, mostly having to do with the people involved than the meta game itself, I think.
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On November 01 2025 00:41 TMNT wrote:
For other matchups: for example, PvZ on Knockout seems okay (51%) but PvT seems bad (41%)
Jesus, does KnockOut favor T these days? That PvT winrate really surprises me. It'd be tragic if it eventually becomes a T map like its predecessor.
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On November 01 2025 00:31 Rainalcar wrote:
What is really strange to me is that after 20y of map making there is very little predictable science involved in it. Ie a map is made but how game balance is going to go is still largely anyone's guess. The scene is severely lacking there.
On the Korean Namuwiki, there are only 2 maps that are considered "concept maps" aka the maps where all 3 matchups are as close to 50% winrate as possible, AND has stood the test of time. They are Fighting Spirit and Apocalypse. Think about that.
They even list maps that used to be considered "concept maps" but eventually were figured out by the meta to be either a T map or broken ZvP map. I remember those included Circuit Breaker (T map P hell), Retro (TvZ gets stronger over the years), Outsider (strong 2-hatch Muta play), Tau Cross (973 too strong), among others.
So yeah, either the map science is not there, or the Korean tourneys/players prioritize different sets of maps. It's anyone's guess.
I do have high hope for Radeon and KnockOut will stand the test of time. But T seems to have been winning a lot lately in both those maps...
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On November 01 2025 01:54 Kanzzer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2025 00:41 TMNT wrote:
For other matchups: for example, PvZ on Knockout seems okay (51%) but PvT seems bad (41%) Jesus, does KnockOut favor T these days? That PvT winrate really surprises me. It'd be tragic if it eventually becomes a T map like its predecessor.
Yes. The trench helps P from Hydra bust, but it also encourages T for Rax expand. On top of that, you couldn't come up with anything better for Terran to defend than the small triangle area outside that trench, and it's connected to a 3rd base on high ground, that tanks from your main can also shoot to. Terrans get their 3rd base up within 10 mins on this map. It's even easier than Vermeer, which was the map intended to be what Radeon is now, but eventually abandoned because Terran is too op on it. And the 4th and 5th bases on Knockout are not far away either.
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On November 01 2025 01:10 Kraekkling wrote:
they should make an ASL where half of the maps are picked by mtcn and the other half by TMNT
perfection
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On November 01 2025 00:29 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2025 23:48 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On October 31 2025 18:38 TMNT wrote:On October 31 2025 18:12 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On October 31 2025 11:05 Maks wrote:On October 31 2025 09:50 TMNT wrote:
To be honest, I've never understood why the default assumption of some people is that BW is balanced. When people say StarCraft is balanced, I think they really mean that balance depends on the map pool and the current meta—not that the game has some inherent, abstract fairness. But here’s the thing: over two and a half decades, no matter how much the maps or meta have shifted, the hierarchy has stayed roughly the same. Terran remains the strongest race, Zerg sits in the middle, and Protoss? Still the weakest. we have had maps that were very protoss favored, which does imply it is the map design. at some point it was decided the status quo of maps is a sesign that screws protoss over marginally. Yes. If Revolver were the Polypoid of this era, we would have had more Protoss champions. a big problem is that ASL officials do not try to get balanced maps. They force maps that force meta changes, instead of letting the players build a meta where everything naturally balances itself with a fluid development of the meta. brute forcing maps into the pool screws over one of the three races. We need actually neutral and 50/50 maps and let players just play those maps for a season without any weird ass maps in the mix. Radeon, Retro, Vermeer, Polypoid, Dominator, Neo Sylphid, no 2 player map because those tend to be least balanced. A simple clear cut map pool. huh? Check eloboards. 2p maps and 3p maps are more balanced than 4p maps. Yes, it's frustrating for some matchups like gas steal in TvP, but the stats are still very balanced.
I have to make a correction on my map picks:
Radeon. 4p
Polypoid. 4p
Eclipse. 2p
Apocalypse. 3p
Neo Dark Origin. 2p
Invaders. 2p or Butter. 2p
Tempest. 4p
These maps have large sample sizes and winrates close to 50% for all three races.
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I feel like im chewing aluminium everytime im playing on Neo Dark Origin
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I want a map on ash world and one on ice world tile set
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On November 01 2025 11:58 Kraekkling wrote:
I want a map on ash world and one on ice world tile set I dont know about ash but the snow maps are specifically avoided due to the white glare so you wont see them in competitive play.
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On November 01 2025 09:26 TornadoSteve wrote:
I feel like im chewing aluminium everytime im playing on Neo Dark Origin
haha. it do feel like that. But the stats imply its the most balanced. I really want to see just one season where they pick maps based ONLY on their already existing stats.
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On November 01 2025 02:46 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2025 01:54 Kanzzer wrote:On November 01 2025 00:41 TMNT wrote:
For other matchups: for example, PvZ on Knockout seems okay (51%) but PvT seems bad (41%) Jesus, does KnockOut favor T these days? That PvT winrate really surprises me. It'd be tragic if it eventually becomes a T map like its predecessor. Yes. The trench helps P from Hydra bust, but it also encourages T for Rax expand. On top of that, you couldn't come up with anything better for Terran to defend than the small triangle area outside that trench, and it's connected to a 3rd base on high ground, that tanks from your main can also shoot to. Terrans get their 3rd base up within 10 mins on this map. It's even easier than Vermeer, which was the map intended to be what Radeon is now, but eventually abandoned because Terran is too op on it. And the 4th and 5th bases on Knockout are not far away either.
Thanks for the knowledge, TMNT. It is very unfortunate.
Do you think Radeon is trending into a T map too?
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On November 01 2025 16:01 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2025 11:58 Kraekkling wrote:
I want a map on ash world and one on ice world tile set I dont know about ash but the snow maps are specifically avoided due to the white glare so you wont see them in competitive play.
this stopped being relevant 15 years ago
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