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TMNT
3116 Posts
As for JYJ, he opted for a very all-in build, didn't succeed in the first place, but somehow stumbled into a macro game. It's a great game in the sense that it's action-packed, but tbh the more I think about it, the more I feel like ggsimida has a point (just his rude words kinda put people off). The strategy wasn't all that great (all-in and hidden expo), and there was a lot of sloppy play from both sides. | ||
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Miragee
8638 Posts
On April 12 2023 07:41 TMNT wrote: Also one of the reasons Soulkey could survive for so long is that he was able to sneak a ninja expo at 6 o'clock. As for JYJ, he opted for a very all-in build, didn't succeed in the first place, but somehow stumbled into a macro game. It's a great game in the sense that it's action-packed, but tbh the more I think about it, the more I feel like ggsimida has a point (just his rude words kinda put people off). The strategy wasn't all that great (all-in and hidden expo), and there was a lot of sloppy play from both sides. I mean, I agree it was messy (I even said that in my previous post). The game was still entertaining I think there was a swing in SK's favour when JyJ didn't scout the fourth base for so long and suicided half his army into the third without killing anything. It put Soulkey on the map. The only reason Soulkey never made it to JyJ's nat with a defiler, which would have been game ending at quite a few points in the game, was JyJ's constant scouting of the top route. And as I said, if SK had just built more scourge, I think the game would have looked very different. But yeah, I imagine if you watch it back the game would have looked in JyJ's favour more so than it did while watching it for the first time. The messiness probably played a huge part because I didn't know what to expect and who would mess up next. | ||
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staatbauhaus
99 Posts
Just goes to show there's levels to this shit in how one can understand the game. | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
On April 12 2023 09:12 staatbauhaus wrote: Rush and Soma thought game 5 was the best of the season covering both entertainment and strategy. Meanwhile some of you claim it was a noobfest lol. Just goes to show there's levels to this shit in how one can understand the game. A lot of the "chaos" is entirely intentional. They are deliberately pushing their multitasking, strategy, and optimizations to the limit. They are limit testing a lot of situations trying to catch the other slipping on a multitask. There's all sorts of details that are lost on not near pro level viewers. Losing units is not "bad" if it has even the smallest advantage over what the opponent gets out of it. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13299 Posts
Cool to see some new faces in the RO4 this season. Seems like Hero's title to lose from here as the remaining S tier player, but Jyj will be tough so beat. | ||
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Lazyer
United States365 Posts
That must have been an exhausting series to play, G1/3/5 going 20+ minutes. Shoutouts to SK for pulling out the Queen/Ensnare in game 5, honestly a G move. The best games are the ones that go back and forth, the best series are the ones that go back and forth too. This ASL has been a treat! | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19307 Posts
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redknights
206 Posts
2 port wraith fail -> miraculous wraith control and keeping them alive -> nervous play + medicless drops + not noticing secret base -> vessels blowing up left and right but they keep coming out just as planned lmfao | ||
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redknights
206 Posts
Mind and JyJ must sacrifice themselves to avoid a 3rd straight Terran champion and even crappier anti-Terran maps next season... | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7827 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On April 12 2023 09:21 RJBTV wrote: A lot of the "chaos" is entirely intentional. They are deliberately pushing their multitasking, strategy, and optimizations to the limit. They are limit testing a lot of situations trying to catch the other slipping on a multitask. There's all sorts of details that are lost on not near pro level viewers. Losing units is not "bad" if it has even the smallest advantage over what the opponent gets out of it. I think that's actually a really good way of putting it. Optimization at the highest level looks different from the levels below. Also, backseat gaming (especially collectively) gives people the impression that the pros are overlooking blatantly obvious things or acting unintelligently. But often there's information that only or mostly the spectators have, while the pros are having to manage their attention and thinking as much as their actions, and they have to do so at a very rapid rate in often unfamiliar situations. When it gets as chaotic as the final game, the number of unavoidable mistakes naturally increases, which to the viewers can look like a series of poor decisions. Some mistakes are of course theoretically avoidable, but that's expected since neither JyJ nor Soulkey are on Flash's level. Not all of their mistakes fall into the unavoidable category though, and some things aren't even mistakes to begin with. | ||
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masoka82
Spain594 Posts
Waiting for Best vs Her0 in the Finals! | ||
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TMNT
3116 Posts
On April 12 2023 09:12 staatbauhaus wrote: Rush and Soma thought game 5 was the best of the season covering both entertainment and strategy. Meanwhile some of you claim it was a noobfest lol. Just goes to show there's levels to this shit in how one can understand the game. Entertainment sure but liking a strategy can be a matter of personal preference. I'm sure there are other pros who think it's not the best game of the season, does that mean their level of understanding the game is below viewers who think it is? Like, if Soulkey 's hidden expo was spotted in time and killed, the game would have ended much sooner and not be that entertaining. For me I prefer growing bases organically instead of relying on a total luck like that. Likewise for a super all in opening. For me Soulkey vs Royal on Butter last season was a better game. It's kind of similar to this one in terms of the action (and also Soulkey's crazy fighting for survival - in which he actually penetrated Royal bases a few times, not like this time where he could barely touch JYJ's) but the strategy is more solid. Once again, it's just a matter of personal preference. | ||
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staatbauhaus
99 Posts
Your matter of preference covers the entertainment part of it; you're free to love/hate the game 100% agree. But certainly not the strategic part the pros were talking about. It was high level play not luck. | ||
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Miragee
8638 Posts
On April 12 2023 17:45 staatbauhaus wrote: It's a real time strategy game. No such thing as luck. This is a false equation. Of course there is luck involved in every game of starcraft, to very varying degrees. | ||
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staatbauhaus
99 Posts
On April 12 2023 18:35 Miragee wrote: This is a false equation. Of course there is luck involved in every game of starcraft, to very varying degrees. You're being nitpicky. No one here would think of taking what I said as an absolute. I obviously am not including some super niche scenarios. My point still stands, the higher skill level players have strategies that account for what normal people would count as dumb luck. Please give me examples of these varying degrees unless you're just arguing just to argue. | ||
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TMNT
3116 Posts
Players themselves all the time admit in interviews after the game that "I was lucky because it was cross spawn/he didn't spot my hidden base/his lings went the wrong way/he didn't make 6 lings/" .. you name it. You didn't see they said "It was my high level play that I was able to 12 Nexus last scouted" huh? It's kind of double standard when the average ladder player gambles and succeeds, it is considered luck, but when a pro does it, it's high level play. Of course, if the gambling fails, the pros surely will have a better reaction/plan B than the average player. But if the gambling succeeds, they all benefit the same. | ||
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chongu
Malaysia2593 Posts
I thought it wouldn't work against 2 hatch muta, but I was wrong. | ||
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staatbauhaus
99 Posts
On April 12 2023 19:11 TMNT wrote: It is luck, no need to insert the word "dumb" to make your argument more convincing. I think you're kind of over-exaggerating here. I'm assuming English is not your first language because "dumb luck" is a commonly used idiom. Dumb isn't being used as 'stupid' in this phrase. Also the examples you listed are so surface level. There's plans that react to the scenarios you mentioned. To illustrate some of your points, cross map double nexus carriers? Light barrack double 2 armories so he can quick third expo with 1-1. Didn't spot hidden base? Light lost to Action with hidden proxy hatch. Now Light has implemented strategy vs that in his game plan. Didn't make 6 lings? vs what race? depending on the pro they have their ling /drone distribution planned out until 35 population. Sure in the post match interviews they say it's luck, but when they solo stream or discord during proleagues, they sometimes go into greater detail of exactly what their strategy is. They drop gems time to time that open your eyes to just how much planning is involved. | ||
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TMNT
3116 Posts
On April 12 2023 19:35 staatbauhaus wrote: I'm assuming English is not your first language because "dumb luck" is a commonly used idiom. Dumb isn't being used as 'stupid' in this phrase. Also the examples you listed are so surface level. There's plans that react to the scenarios you mentioned. To illustrate some of your points, cross map double nexus carriers? Light barrack double 2 armories so he can quick third expo with 1-1. Didn't spot hidden base? Light lost to Action with hidden proxy hatch. Now Light has implemented strategy vs that in his game plan. Didn't make 6 lings? vs what race? depending on the pro they have their ling /drone distribution planned out until 35 population. Sure in the post match interviews they say it's luck, but when they solo stream or discord during proleagues, they sometimes go into greater detail of exactly what their strategy is. They drop gems time to time that open your eyes to just how much planning is involved. I don't see how this is a response to comment. What does Light's reaction to a 12 Nexus/proxy Hatch have anything to do with my examples? The luck part refers to the player who gambles, not the player who reacts to that. If you benefit from something that's totally out of your control (spawn location, opponent not scouting your hidden base...) that is surely luck. Of course there is planning when the risky play gets spotted (aka plan B) but when it doesn't get spotted that is your fortune. The two things don't need to contradict. And if the plan B doesn't work, then surely your overall strategy relies on luck as well. See Snow vs Light earlier this season. Snow skipping range all the way to support bay, got punished heavily and lost. Say if Light didn't have ultra Star-sense there, Snow would have had the fastest Reaver on earth and his plan would have succeeded based on something out of his control. That would be called luck. | ||
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