EPT[ASL15] Ro8 Day 4 - Page 9
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staatbauhaus
99 Posts
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TMNT
3385 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/nBIcngn.png) Does it look like "oh shit I just got out of jail there" or "I planned this all along" to you? Then Mini in his post match interview: "the spawn location was very lucky for me", "I didn't expect he'd go 9 Pool", "when I saw those lings, my mind just went blank". Of course Mini is one of the best strategist ever and there are times when he planned a build to perfection, like the 2 Gate opening vs Queen, but there are also times he just relies purely on luck like that one. | ||
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TMNT
3385 Posts
On April 12 2023 20:20 staatbauhaus wrote: Okay, I tap out. It seems we won't be able to agree on the definition of luck applied to BW to proceed into a fruitful discussion. It's okay. I don't think our opinions diverse too much anyway. And I consider the JYJ Soulkey game 5 great game nonetheless. | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
On April 12 2023 19:35 staatbauhaus wrote: I'm assuming English is not your first language because "dumb luck" is a commonly used idiom. Dumb isn't being used as 'stupid' in this phrase. Also the examples you listed are so surface level. There's plans that react to the scenarios you mentioned. To illustrate some of your points, cross map double nexus carriers? Light barrack double 2 armories so he can quick third expo with 1-1. Didn't spot hidden base? Light lost to Action with hidden proxy hatch. Now Light has implemented strategy vs that in his game plan. Didn't make 6 lings? vs what race? depending on the pro they have their ling /drone distribution planned out until 35 population. Sure in the post match interviews they say it's luck, but when they solo stream or discord during proleagues, they sometimes go into greater detail of exactly what their strategy is. They drop gems time to time that open your eyes to just how much planning is involved. There's another kind of spot luck people here forget about but which pros talk about a lot. There's specific maps where the bottom right base has slower mining from 1 mineral patch. This can't be influenced by enhanced mining micro/collect button timing. So on this spawn players will have all their timings slowed down by a couple of second because they simply mine a little bit less minerals. That's entirely luck based. On polypoid if the terran spawns clockwise from protoss, the protoss has an advantage from backside access to the base with air units that is much harder to do with a counter clockwise spawn. Then there's the way the maps are subdivived into subsections that affect scarab and reaver behavior. It is impossible to know the sub sections of the map for each map which technically makes a lot of reaver/scarab behavior luck based when it comes to targeting. A unit can be within range of the reaver but in a subsection that does not connect with the one the reaver is in, the reaver can thus not shoot on the targeted unit within range. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/pwmLShP.png<br>) | ||
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redknights
206 Posts
Watch a pro commentating a game, they sometimes whip out the word "운" in the first 10 seconds looking at spawn locations (right-side better for optimized mining early game, ZvZ who spawned in a position where they can overlord scout first, TvZ is this a location that allows full blocking of entrance, TvZ is this a bad spawn for blocking mutalisks, TvP is it cross-spawn where nexus first is huge advantage) They also say things are lucky during battles, such as mine hitting or not, or low-ground to high-ground hits, or reaver hits, or a unit escaping with a few hit points left There's also an element of luck in build selection, especially ones where you have to hope your opponent doesn't go in a certain direction, but players who are known to predict their opponent's strategies well are respected and it's considered a skill by the pros. As to hidden bases, yes it's lucky to pull it off successfully, but sniffing it out and squashing it is a skill | ||
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staatbauhaus
99 Posts
i.e. completely winning a build order (9pool vs 14cc) = not luck spawning favorable position on a map. (right side spawn vs left side = not luck What I do consider luck is if it contains an aspect of RNG that can or will effect the level of skill. I.e. diablo style item drops, The binding of Isaac style games, TFT, Mario Kart items, or any other game with mechanics built on probability and percent chances. = luck I guess the closest thing to that in melee is high ground/ tree random damage. And various bugs, like the one you mentioned about the reaver or something like units getting stuck on the 12 FS ramp creating a never ending vortex. Anyway like I said to TMNT, its a useless discussion because our definitions of luck in BW is different. | ||
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Nirli
Bulgaria387 Posts
JyJ has come a long way, crazy vessel usage. SK was really passive against the vessels and they are the perfect breaker against his masterful defensive style. Great games overall. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1605 Posts
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Miragee
8714 Posts
On April 13 2023 00:42 EndingLife wrote: Imagine thinking a ninja expo attempt when clearly behind is luck based or an all in. It was pretty much his only chance at a comeback. IMO, there are two times when a ninja expo should be used... When you're playing someone far better than you and have little to no chance of winning in a regular game or when you have little to no chance of coming back from a game you're too far behind in. How are "being his only chance at a comeback" and being "luck based" contradicting each other? Yes, it was basically his only chance. Yes his chance was based on a somewhat lucky outcome, as in not getting scouted for a while - something out of his control. | ||
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Simplistik
2173 Posts
JyJ looking like an actual contender. Respect. | ||
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darktreb
United States3019 Posts
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RogerChillingworth
Chad3132 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On April 13 2023 05:42 Miragee wrote: How are "being his only chance at a comeback" and being "luck based" contradicting each other? Yes, it was basically his only chance. Yes his chance was based on a somewhat lucky outcome, as in not getting scouted for a while - something out of his control. The decision to build the hidden base, the way he executed it and the time and place he chose was all skill. The only factor of luck was that it didn't get scouted sooner. So overall it's more skill than luck. Just because there's an element of luck involved doesn't make it luck based. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
But SC BW has 100% different elements of luck. Or stated in another way: The luck component of SCBW is not literally Zero. Even in Chess it is not Zero. In fact I think in basically any game it is not zero. But ofc then it depends on how one defines luck (e.g. is studying these lines in chess and not those defined as luck.. ect..) I dont know why that is such a interesting topic that warrants much discussion. It is pretty simple in the case of StarCraft isnt it? | ||
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Postaljester_
33 Posts
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Nirli
Bulgaria387 Posts
On April 13 2023 23:07 Postaljester_ wrote: What makes this seasons maps anti Terran? Or has this become another meme parroted from some streamer? Even without looking at the win percentages, conceptually Dark Origin is terrible for Terran vs Z. On the other hand, 76 is awful for T vs P, basically always playing from behind. | ||
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TMNT
3385 Posts
Vermeer: 56.8% Sylphid: 54.9% Nemesis: 50.1% Retro: 47.9% Dark Origin: 45.2% HBR: 44.6% 76: 43.8% So definitely anti-Terran I don't think there was ever a map pool that anti Zerg. Kinda hard to design a normal map where Zerg is at disadvantage. However, every time when the map pool is not anti-Terran, it becomes anti-Protoss. | ||
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Miragee
8714 Posts
On April 14 2023 03:26 TMNT wrote: From eloboard, Terran win rate (combine TvP and TvZ): Vermeer: 56.8% Sylphid: 54.9% Nemesis: 50.1% Retro: 47.9% Dark Origin: 45.2% HBR: 44.6% 76: 43.8% So definitely anti-Terran I don't think there was ever a map pool that anti Zerg. Kinda hard to design a normal map where Zerg is at disadvantage. However, every time when the map pool is not anti-Terran, it becomes anti-Protoss. I mean, there were seasons with super anti zerg vs terran maps. Savior era comes to mind with stuff like Longinus 2 (45,2 %) and Reverse Temple (43.9 %) making up half the map pool (percentages are Z winrates in starleagues for both ZvP and ZvT combined). However, I have a hard time imagening a map pool that is bad for ZvP but balanced for ZvT. If it's bad for ZvP it's likely unplayable in ZvT. The above winrates were largely affected by ZvT as zerg had still a positive winrate vs protoss on both maps... The same is true for Neo Arkanoid on steroids, also from this era, with 47.6 % zerg winrate (34.2 % TvZ, 68.8 % ZvP...lol). Probably one of the best terran and worst protoss maps ever in a star league. | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey850 Posts
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Elroi
Sweden5617 Posts
Oh and the level of drama with that hidden expo in the one location that JyJ didn't scout for so long. | ||
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