EPT
[ASL15] Ro8 Day 4
| Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
| ||
|
nojok
France15845 Posts
| ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria4260 Posts
On April 11 2023 19:22 BLinD-RawR wrote: sorry for the late thread but really we didn't miss much It's cool no worries :D First game is already a banger, looks like a promising matchup! | ||
|
Kaal
Djibouti2516 Posts
| ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria4260 Posts
 | ||
|
nojok
France15845 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania8240 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
| ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria4260 Posts
On April 11 2023 19:45 nojok wrote: JyJ sniped those defilers so aggressively, why soulkey skipped scourge entirely? I think he was quite low on resources for most of the game. They both were actually | ||
|
prosatan
Romania8240 Posts
 Maybe they will do a proleague later !! | ||
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania8240 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria4260 Posts
On April 11 2023 20:06 Peeano wrote: Sandwichehh. Now plz make some drones, Soulkey He listened! | ||
|
prosatan
Romania8240 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
| ||
|
nojok
France15845 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania8240 Posts
Another upset maybe ? | ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria4260 Posts
 | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
JyJ's macro was so consistent as well as his map presence and little micro skirmishes. He coulda added 2 more rax prolly, but that's it. | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
Drone too early and JyJ punishes you, you drone too late and JyJ's tenacity will catch up to you and spell your defeat. I doubt will try a cheese from here on, but would have liked to see one Shine style ^^ | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania8240 Posts
LB on SK! | ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria4260 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
he has better chances on retro. | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
nojok
France15845 Posts
| ||
|
Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
On April 11 2023 20:45 Peeano wrote: If someone told me this was Flash vs JD 2009-2010 I woulda believed it. JyJ's macro was so consistent as well as his map presence and little micro skirmishes. He coulda added 2 more rax prolly, but that's it. Nahhhh, no way this is anywhere near peak Flash vs JD. None the less, a great series so far. | ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
On April 11 2023 21:07 Zariel wrote: Nahhhh, no way this is anywhere near peak Flash vs JD. None the less, a great series so far. its closer to calm vs fantasy, aka the poor man's JvF | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
On April 11 2023 21:07 Zariel wrote: Nahhhh, no way this is anywhere near peak Flash vs JD. None the less, a great series so far. I was talking about the Sylphid game. Not about the series lol. Flash vs JD games weren't all like on Rush Hour 3 for example. | ||
|
prosatan
Romania8240 Posts
On April 11 2023 21:08 BLinD-RawR wrote: its closer to calm vs fantasy, aka the poor man's JvF HAAAAA!! Good one!!! Poor man's Jd vs Flash | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania8240 Posts
Let's go with 4 pool vs 8 rax  | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania8240 Posts
Early gas for JyJ | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania8240 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania8240 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania8240 Posts
On April 11 2023 21:19 Zariel wrote: Where's Leta when you need him +1 +1 +1 | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania8240 Posts
I wonder who is ahead... maybe they are even...idk | ||
|
prosatan
Romania8240 Posts
Now wraiths are less dangerous Academy is starting for JyJ | ||
|
prosatan
Romania8240 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
On April 11 2023 21:23 prosatan wrote: A queen with ensare would be amazing.... For sure! | ||
|
prosatan
Romania8240 Posts
queen | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania8240 Posts
what was that SK ?!?!?!?! where the ensnare ?!?!! | ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania8240 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania8240 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania8240 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania8240 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
Biggest throw/choke in the making | ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
On April 11 2023 21:36 Peeano wrote: This poor man's Flash vs JD is amazing tbh ^^ the calm vs fantasy series I referenced was also amazing, oh fuck JyJ found 6 | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania8240 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
| ||
|
ggsimida
1148 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
| ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
On April 11 2023 21:43 ggsimida wrote: both players are so sloppy neither deserves to go through honestly its a high pressure game, nobody performs perfectly. | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
holy moly | ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
| ||
|
ggsimida
1148 Posts
On April 11 2023 21:44 BLinD-RawR wrote: its a high pressure game, nobody performs perfectly. flash v effort is a million times better than this | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
On April 11 2023 21:43 ggsimida wrote: both players are so sloppy neither deserves to go through honestly this game always looks so easy when watching others play doesnt it rofl D: | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
| ||
|
PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
if u think anyone of these players played bad I dont know if u know the first thing about this game.. GG!!!!!! | ||
|
ggsimida
1148 Posts
On April 11 2023 21:46 MaGic~PhiL wrote: this game always looks so easy when watching others play doesnt it rofl D: do u see flash throwing away entire group of non plague vessel to hydras anyway im out sad state of play and peeps actually defending shite entertainment | ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50269 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania8240 Posts
| ||
|
nojok
France15845 Posts
| ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria4260 Posts
JyJ! Moving ON! | ||
|
nojok
France15845 Posts
On April 11 2023 21:49 ggsimida wrote: do u see flash throwing away entire group of non plague vessel to hydras anyway im out sad state of play and peeps actually defending shite entertainment Not peak Flash level? Trash player | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
On April 11 2023 21:49 ggsimida wrote: do u see flash throwing away entire group of non plague vessel to hydras anyway im out sad state of play and peeps actually defending shite entertainment you are either a troll or ur hybris is through the roof.. if u think that was bad on JyJs part you are out of your mind consantly irridating units while managing to expand, fight fights deny epxansions.. probably best to ignore clowns like you T_T | ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria4260 Posts
| ||
|
HOLYBATS
Turkey741 Posts
| ||
|
JohnnyBlaze420
Australia814 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
Flash and JD literally played 14h a day, both had an entire team behind them and were at the age of having peak reflexes and reaction time. Also even when Flash n JD were both reigning kings they didn't always perform like you may remember... | ||
|
orth0dox
28 Posts
| ||
|
TMNT
2782 Posts
Somehow that game reminds me of Artosis' ladder experience in TvP, in which he complained about how Protoss was "so bad" by throwing away many units, but then just remaking them AND expanding AND teching at the same time, until Terran runs out of steam. Just JYJ was the Protoss and Soulkey was the Terran | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
On April 11 2023 22:00 TMNT wrote: Tbh I can kind of see his point. Unnecessarily harsh use of words though. Somehow that game reminds me of Artosis' ladder experience in TvP, in which he complained about how Protoss was "so bad" by throwing away many units, but then just remaking them AND expanding AND teching at the same time, until Terran runs out of steam. Just JYJ was the Protoss and Soulkey was the Terran I don't understand why people still care to watch a manchild baby cry about the same thing over and over and being completely blinded by his own idea of how BW should be played. It's like Coyote failing to catch Roadrunner over and over again except it's rarely as funny. | ||
|
HOLYBATS
Turkey741 Posts
| ||
|
wenbao
2 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5088 Posts
On April 11 2023 22:11 wenbao wrote: theres not going to be a 3rd/4th place match this time around? Edit: Maybe? Liquipedia says 3rd/4th both getting ₩3,000,000 I wouldn't mind not seeing it. | ||
|
M3t4PhYzX
Poland4200 Posts
Best vs JyJ would be a cool final, imo. But honestly? This is hero's ASL to lose I guess.. | ||
|
superjoppe
Sweden3683 Posts
| ||
|
RJBTV
194 Posts
On April 11 2023 21:51 Peeano wrote: Just watch more BW. The glory days are long over. This is current peak BW. Still better than you yourself or any other non-Korean can do. Current era is less about mechanics, which are still very very good and for some players at the level of Kespa era, but the smartest players with the best optimized playstyles and the best strategic sense win championships now. | ||
|
outscar
2832 Posts
Lol @ user who posted that FlaSh and EffOrt are better. First of all, SK is the hardest zerg to kill in the world, he fought like mad also he was the guy who took out in finals ace match FlaSh on proleague right before Remastered came out don't remember which one and it was macro win. Don't even try to downgrade JyJ play or compare to FlaSh, guy was always 50+ supplies ahead of him. Secondly, I think not all FlaSh's games are interesting to watch, he just sits on 3 bases, gets zero damage and goes to crush the opponent meanwhile we saw JyJ opted to crazy 2 port wraith strat and constantly sniping defilers, haven't seen such a good m&m and vessel micro in a looooong while. | ||
|
Galacsia
Chile161 Posts
On another topic this Ro4 looks similar to ASL 2 (the best season imo). Best vs Terran on one side, TvZ on the other, and a chance of TvT finals. Best just has to look for the bbs that prevented him from reaching the finals that one time. | ||
|
whylessness
United States376 Posts
| ||
|
M2
Bulgaria4120 Posts
| ||
|
Miragee
8538 Posts
Soulkey really needed to expand in the final game but it's really hard with the setup he had, barely any map control. He almost made it happen, regardless. If anything, I would fault him for never building scourge. Jyj's vessels were all over the place I'm sure he would have gotten so many with scourge. And the vessels were the only reason JyJ was able to come back after he suicided into Soulkey's third and lost most of his army. The constant irradiates were so incredibly cost effiecient. On April 11 2023 22:01 Peeano wrote: All this ASL needs now is killer Ro4 upsets and then a boring ass TvT finals. Hopefully Best vs hero tho. Hopefully not because Best vs Hero will be super boring. Hoping for JyJ to advance against Best. If Hero advances, Mind would be the more exciting option for the finals. //I didn't predict a single game correctly in the Ro8. xD | ||
|
TMNT
2782 Posts
Best game this season for me is still the 76 game between Light and Best. Best vs Action was epic to watch and the result was unpredictable but it doesn't have the back and forth stuff of the game on 76. | ||
|
TMNT
2782 Posts
As for JYJ, he opted for a very all-in build, didn't succeed in the first place, but somehow stumbled into a macro game. It's a great game in the sense that it's action-packed, but tbh the more I think about it, the more I feel like ggsimida has a point (just his rude words kinda put people off). The strategy wasn't all that great (all-in and hidden expo), and there was a lot of sloppy play from both sides. | ||
|
Miragee
8538 Posts
On April 12 2023 07:41 TMNT wrote: Also one of the reasons Soulkey could survive for so long is that he was able to sneak a ninja expo at 6 o'clock. As for JYJ, he opted for a very all-in build, didn't succeed in the first place, but somehow stumbled into a macro game. It's a great game in the sense that it's action-packed, but tbh the more I think about it, the more I feel like ggsimida has a point (just his rude words kinda put people off). The strategy wasn't all that great (all-in and hidden expo), and there was a lot of sloppy play from both sides. I mean, I agree it was messy (I even said that in my previous post). The game was still entertaining I think there was a swing in SK's favour when JyJ didn't scout the fourth base for so long and suicided half his army into the third without killing anything. It put Soulkey on the map. The only reason Soulkey never made it to JyJ's nat with a defiler, which would have been game ending at quite a few points in the game, was JyJ's constant scouting of the top route. And as I said, if SK had just built more scourge, I think the game would have looked very different. But yeah, I imagine if you watch it back the game would have looked in JyJ's favour more so than it did while watching it for the first time. The messiness probably played a huge part because I didn't know what to expect and who would mess up next. | ||
|
staatbauhaus
99 Posts
Just goes to show there's levels to this shit in how one can understand the game. | ||
|
RJBTV
194 Posts
On April 12 2023 09:12 staatbauhaus wrote: Rush and Soma thought game 5 was the best of the season covering both entertainment and strategy. Meanwhile some of you claim it was a noobfest lol. Just goes to show there's levels to this shit in how one can understand the game. A lot of the "chaos" is entirely intentional. They are deliberately pushing their multitasking, strategy, and optimizations to the limit. They are limit testing a lot of situations trying to catch the other slipping on a multitask. There's all sorts of details that are lost on not near pro level viewers. Losing units is not "bad" if it has even the smallest advantage over what the opponent gets out of it. | ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia13046 Posts
Cool to see some new faces in the RO4 this season. Seems like Hero's title to lose from here as the remaining S tier player, but Jyj will be tough so beat. | ||
|
Lazyer
United States349 Posts
That must have been an exhausting series to play, G1/3/5 going 20+ minutes. Shoutouts to SK for pulling out the Queen/Ensnare in game 5, honestly a G move. The best games are the ones that go back and forth, the best series are the ones that go back and forth too. This ASL has been a treat! | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19250 Posts
| ||
|
redknights
206 Posts
2 port wraith fail -> miraculous wraith control and keeping them alive -> nervous play + medicless drops + not noticing secret base -> vessels blowing up left and right but they keep coming out just as planned lmfao | ||
|
redknights
206 Posts
Mind and JyJ must sacrifice themselves to avoid a 3rd straight Terran champion and even crappier anti-Terran maps next season... | ||
|
Vasoline73
United States7802 Posts
| ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria4260 Posts
On April 12 2023 09:21 RJBTV wrote: A lot of the "chaos" is entirely intentional. They are deliberately pushing their multitasking, strategy, and optimizations to the limit. They are limit testing a lot of situations trying to catch the other slipping on a multitask. There's all sorts of details that are lost on not near pro level viewers. Losing units is not "bad" if it has even the smallest advantage over what the opponent gets out of it. I think that's actually a really good way of putting it. Optimization at the highest level looks different from the levels below. Also, backseat gaming (especially collectively) gives people the impression that the pros are overlooking blatantly obvious things or acting unintelligently. But often there's information that only or mostly the spectators have, while the pros are having to manage their attention and thinking as much as their actions, and they have to do so at a very rapid rate in often unfamiliar situations. When it gets as chaotic as the final game, the number of unavoidable mistakes naturally increases, which to the viewers can look like a series of poor decisions. Some mistakes are of course theoretically avoidable, but that's expected since neither JyJ nor Soulkey are on Flash's level. Not all of their mistakes fall into the unavoidable category though, and some things aren't even mistakes to begin with. | ||
|
masoka82
Spain594 Posts
Waiting for Best vs Her0 in the Finals! | ||
|
TMNT
2782 Posts
On April 12 2023 09:12 staatbauhaus wrote: Rush and Soma thought game 5 was the best of the season covering both entertainment and strategy. Meanwhile some of you claim it was a noobfest lol. Just goes to show there's levels to this shit in how one can understand the game. Entertainment sure but liking a strategy can be a matter of personal preference. I'm sure there are other pros who think it's not the best game of the season, does that mean their level of understanding the game is below viewers who think it is? Like, if Soulkey 's hidden expo was spotted in time and killed, the game would have ended much sooner and not be that entertaining. For me I prefer growing bases organically instead of relying on a total luck like that. Likewise for a super all in opening. For me Soulkey vs Royal on Butter last season was a better game. It's kind of similar to this one in terms of the action (and also Soulkey's crazy fighting for survival - in which he actually penetrated Royal bases a few times, not like this time where he could barely touch JYJ's) but the strategy is more solid. Once again, it's just a matter of personal preference. | ||
|
staatbauhaus
99 Posts
Your matter of preference covers the entertainment part of it; you're free to love/hate the game 100% agree. But certainly not the strategic part the pros were talking about. It was high level play not luck. | ||
|
Miragee
8538 Posts
On April 12 2023 17:45 staatbauhaus wrote: It's a real time strategy game. No such thing as luck. This is a false equation. Of course there is luck involved in every game of starcraft, to very varying degrees. | ||
|
staatbauhaus
99 Posts
On April 12 2023 18:35 Miragee wrote: This is a false equation. Of course there is luck involved in every game of starcraft, to very varying degrees. You're being nitpicky. No one here would think of taking what I said as an absolute. I obviously am not including some super niche scenarios. My point still stands, the higher skill level players have strategies that account for what normal people would count as dumb luck. Please give me examples of these varying degrees unless you're just arguing just to argue. | ||
|
TMNT
2782 Posts
Players themselves all the time admit in interviews after the game that "I was lucky because it was cross spawn/he didn't spot my hidden base/his lings went the wrong way/he didn't make 6 lings/" .. you name it. You didn't see they said "It was my high level play that I was able to 12 Nexus last scouted" huh? It's kind of double standard when the average ladder player gambles and succeeds, it is considered luck, but when a pro does it, it's high level play. Of course, if the gambling fails, the pros surely will have a better reaction/plan B than the average player. But if the gambling succeeds, they all benefit the same. | ||
|
chongu
Malaysia2588 Posts
I thought it wouldn't work against 2 hatch muta, but I was wrong. | ||
|
staatbauhaus
99 Posts
On April 12 2023 19:11 TMNT wrote: It is luck, no need to insert the word "dumb" to make your argument more convincing. I think you're kind of over-exaggerating here. I'm assuming English is not your first language because "dumb luck" is a commonly used idiom. Dumb isn't being used as 'stupid' in this phrase. Also the examples you listed are so surface level. There's plans that react to the scenarios you mentioned. To illustrate some of your points, cross map double nexus carriers? Light barrack double 2 armories so he can quick third expo with 1-1. Didn't spot hidden base? Light lost to Action with hidden proxy hatch. Now Light has implemented strategy vs that in his game plan. Didn't make 6 lings? vs what race? depending on the pro they have their ling /drone distribution planned out until 35 population. Sure in the post match interviews they say it's luck, but when they solo stream or discord during proleagues, they sometimes go into greater detail of exactly what their strategy is. They drop gems time to time that open your eyes to just how much planning is involved. | ||
|
TMNT
2782 Posts
On April 12 2023 19:35 staatbauhaus wrote: I'm assuming English is not your first language because "dumb luck" is a commonly used idiom. Dumb isn't being used as 'stupid' in this phrase. Also the examples you listed are so surface level. There's plans that react to the scenarios you mentioned. To illustrate some of your points, cross map double nexus carriers? Light barrack double 2 armories so he can quick third expo with 1-1. Didn't spot hidden base? Light lost to Action with hidden proxy hatch. Now Light has implemented strategy vs that in his game plan. Didn't make 6 lings? vs what race? depending on the pro they have their ling /drone distribution planned out until 35 population. Sure in the post match interviews they say it's luck, but when they solo stream or discord during proleagues, they sometimes go into greater detail of exactly what their strategy is. They drop gems time to time that open your eyes to just how much planning is involved. I don't see how this is a response to comment. What does Light's reaction to a 12 Nexus/proxy Hatch have anything to do with my examples? The luck part refers to the player who gambles, not the player who reacts to that. If you benefit from something that's totally out of your control (spawn location, opponent not scouting your hidden base...) that is surely luck. Of course there is planning when the risky play gets spotted (aka plan B) but when it doesn't get spotted that is your fortune. The two things don't need to contradict. And if the plan B doesn't work, then surely your overall strategy relies on luck as well. See Snow vs Light earlier this season. Snow skipping range all the way to support bay, got punished heavily and lost. Say if Light didn't have ultra Star-sense there, Snow would have had the fastest Reaver on earth and his plan would have succeeded based on something out of his control. That would be called luck. | ||
|
staatbauhaus
99 Posts
| ||
|
TMNT
2782 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/nBIcngn.png) Does it look like "oh shit I just got out of jail there" or "I planned this all along" to you? Then Mini in his post match interview: "the spawn location was very lucky for me", "I didn't expect he'd go 9 Pool", "when I saw those lings, my mind just went blank". Of course Mini is one of the best strategist ever and there are times when he planned a build to perfection, like the 2 Gate opening vs Queen, but there are also times he just relies purely on luck like that one. | ||
|
TMNT
2782 Posts
On April 12 2023 20:20 staatbauhaus wrote: Okay, I tap out. It seems we won't be able to agree on the definition of luck applied to BW to proceed into a fruitful discussion. It's okay. I don't think our opinions diverse too much anyway. And I consider the JYJ Soulkey game 5 great game nonetheless. | ||
|
RJBTV
194 Posts
On April 12 2023 19:35 staatbauhaus wrote: I'm assuming English is not your first language because "dumb luck" is a commonly used idiom. Dumb isn't being used as 'stupid' in this phrase. Also the examples you listed are so surface level. There's plans that react to the scenarios you mentioned. To illustrate some of your points, cross map double nexus carriers? Light barrack double 2 armories so he can quick third expo with 1-1. Didn't spot hidden base? Light lost to Action with hidden proxy hatch. Now Light has implemented strategy vs that in his game plan. Didn't make 6 lings? vs what race? depending on the pro they have their ling /drone distribution planned out until 35 population. Sure in the post match interviews they say it's luck, but when they solo stream or discord during proleagues, they sometimes go into greater detail of exactly what their strategy is. They drop gems time to time that open your eyes to just how much planning is involved. There's another kind of spot luck people here forget about but which pros talk about a lot. There's specific maps where the bottom right base has slower mining from 1 mineral patch. This can't be influenced by enhanced mining micro/collect button timing. So on this spawn players will have all their timings slowed down by a couple of second because they simply mine a little bit less minerals. That's entirely luck based. On polypoid if the terran spawns clockwise from protoss, the protoss has an advantage from backside access to the base with air units that is much harder to do with a counter clockwise spawn. Then there's the way the maps are subdivived into subsections that affect scarab and reaver behavior. It is impossible to know the sub sections of the map for each map which technically makes a lot of reaver/scarab behavior luck based when it comes to targeting. A unit can be within range of the reaver but in a subsection that does not connect with the one the reaver is in, the reaver can thus not shoot on the targeted unit within range. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/pwmLShP.png<br>) | ||
|
redknights
206 Posts
Watch a pro commentating a game, they sometimes whip out the word "운" in the first 10 seconds looking at spawn locations (right-side better for optimized mining early game, ZvZ who spawned in a position where they can overlord scout first, TvZ is this a location that allows full blocking of entrance, TvZ is this a bad spawn for blocking mutalisks, TvP is it cross-spawn where nexus first is huge advantage) They also say things are lucky during battles, such as mine hitting or not, or low-ground to high-ground hits, or reaver hits, or a unit escaping with a few hit points left There's also an element of luck in build selection, especially ones where you have to hope your opponent doesn't go in a certain direction, but players who are known to predict their opponent's strategies well are respected and it's considered a skill by the pros. As to hidden bases, yes it's lucky to pull it off successfully, but sniffing it out and squashing it is a skill | ||
|
staatbauhaus
99 Posts
i.e. completely winning a build order (9pool vs 14cc) = not luck spawning favorable position on a map. (right side spawn vs left side = not luck What I do consider luck is if it contains an aspect of RNG that can or will effect the level of skill. I.e. diablo style item drops, The binding of Isaac style games, TFT, Mario Kart items, or any other game with mechanics built on probability and percent chances. = luck I guess the closest thing to that in melee is high ground/ tree random damage. And various bugs, like the one you mentioned about the reaver or something like units getting stuck on the 12 FS ramp creating a never ending vortex. Anyway like I said to TMNT, its a useless discussion because our definitions of luck in BW is different. | ||
|
Nirli
Bulgaria372 Posts
JyJ has come a long way, crazy vessel usage. SK was really passive against the vessels and they are the perfect breaker against his masterful defensive style. Great games overall. | ||
|
EndingLife
United States1594 Posts
| ||
|
Miragee
8538 Posts
On April 13 2023 00:42 EndingLife wrote: Imagine thinking a ninja expo attempt when clearly behind is luck based or an all in. It was pretty much his only chance at a comeback. IMO, there are two times when a ninja expo should be used... When you're playing someone far better than you and have little to no chance of winning in a regular game or when you have little to no chance of coming back from a game you're too far behind in. How are "being his only chance at a comeback" and being "luck based" contradicting each other? Yes, it was basically his only chance. Yes his chance was based on a somewhat lucky outcome, as in not getting scouted for a while - something out of his control. | ||
|
Simplistik
2035 Posts
JyJ looking like an actual contender. Respect. | ||
|
darktreb
United States3016 Posts
| ||
|
RogerChillingworth
2954 Posts
| ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria4260 Posts
On April 13 2023 05:42 Miragee wrote: How are "being his only chance at a comeback" and being "luck based" contradicting each other? Yes, it was basically his only chance. Yes his chance was based on a somewhat lucky outcome, as in not getting scouted for a while - something out of his control. The decision to build the hidden base, the way he executed it and the time and place he chose was all skill. The only factor of luck was that it didn't get scouted sooner. So overall it's more skill than luck. Just because there's an element of luck involved doesn't make it luck based. | ||
|
PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
But SC BW has 100% different elements of luck. Or stated in another way: The luck component of SCBW is not literally Zero. Even in Chess it is not Zero. In fact I think in basically any game it is not zero. But ofc then it depends on how one defines luck (e.g. is studying these lines in chess and not those defined as luck.. ect..) I dont know why that is such a interesting topic that warrants much discussion. It is pretty simple in the case of StarCraft isnt it? | ||
|
Postaljester_
32 Posts
| ||
|
Nirli
Bulgaria372 Posts
On April 13 2023 23:07 Postaljester_ wrote: What makes this seasons maps anti Terran? Or has this become another meme parroted from some streamer? Even without looking at the win percentages, conceptually Dark Origin is terrible for Terran vs Z. On the other hand, 76 is awful for T vs P, basically always playing from behind. | ||
|
TMNT
2782 Posts
Vermeer: 56.8% Sylphid: 54.9% Nemesis: 50.1% Retro: 47.9% Dark Origin: 45.2% HBR: 44.6% 76: 43.8% So definitely anti-Terran I don't think there was ever a map pool that anti Zerg. Kinda hard to design a normal map where Zerg is at disadvantage. However, every time when the map pool is not anti-Terran, it becomes anti-Protoss. | ||
|
Miragee
8538 Posts
On April 14 2023 03:26 TMNT wrote: From eloboard, Terran win rate (combine TvP and TvZ): Vermeer: 56.8% Sylphid: 54.9% Nemesis: 50.1% Retro: 47.9% Dark Origin: 45.2% HBR: 44.6% 76: 43.8% So definitely anti-Terran I don't think there was ever a map pool that anti Zerg. Kinda hard to design a normal map where Zerg is at disadvantage. However, every time when the map pool is not anti-Terran, it becomes anti-Protoss. I mean, there were seasons with super anti zerg vs terran maps. Savior era comes to mind with stuff like Longinus 2 (45,2 %) and Reverse Temple (43.9 %) making up half the map pool (percentages are Z winrates in starleagues for both ZvP and ZvT combined). However, I have a hard time imagening a map pool that is bad for ZvP but balanced for ZvT. If it's bad for ZvP it's likely unplayable in ZvT. The above winrates were largely affected by ZvT as zerg had still a positive winrate vs protoss on both maps... The same is true for Neo Arkanoid on steroids, also from this era, with 47.6 % zerg winrate (34.2 % TvZ, 68.8 % ZvP...lol). Probably one of the best terran and worst protoss maps ever in a star league. | ||
|
HOLYBATS
Turkey741 Posts
| ||
|
Elroi
Sweden5595 Posts
Oh and the level of drama with that hidden expo in the one location that JyJ didn't scout for so long. | ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
| ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
On April 13 2023 23:07 Postaljester_ wrote: What makes this seasons maps anti Terran? Or has this become another meme parroted from some streamer? Nemesis: absolute junk for TvP and TvZ, T can't secure a 3rd base reliable and loses easily to carriers and mutas. Retro: T can't get a 4th base TvP, it's ok for TvZ I guess. Dark origin: What do you do against carriers? TvZ is not too bad HBR: T can't get a 4th and again hard to play against carriers. 76: Island maps are pretty bad for Terran overall, dropships are bad compared to speed shuttles and mutas. | ||
|
sM.Zik
Canada2550 Posts
| ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3117 Posts
| ||
| ||
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/676.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/647.jpg)
