EPT[ASL11] Semifinals A - Page 8
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Sabu113
United States11087 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4168 Posts
On May 27 2021 18:28 Magic Powers wrote: Hmm, Bisu doesn't exist I guess. he is a streamer now. the scene is small and the gap between streamers and the pseudo pros is not big, but still, its there | ||
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smilevideo1
3 Posts
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ggsimida
1156 Posts
On May 27 2021 22:58 smilevideo1 wrote: mini has undeniably top notch pvz (especially his zealot control, like damn it looks better than bisu's) but can't help but think he got a little lucky facing virtually 0 good terrans interestingly mini's previous deep ASL run (asl7) he didnt meet any terrans either, up until the finals where he got bopped by last. at times a player will get lucky runs, more important is to take advantage of it which any strong offline player will. i won't entirely say mini is top tier in pvz but weak in pvt either just last season he lost to 3 zergs but beat sorry 2-0. overall he can just be rather inconsistent. | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On May 24 2021 12:49 RWLabs wrote: Did no one in the thread mention that Mini didn't scout in games 2, 3, and 5? What Bisu and Sea (and all of Ygosu) were impressed by is that by not scouting, the Protoss can pull the tech tree forwards quite a bit- according to Bisu it's about 100 extra minerals by the natural expansion timing. This means a horde of zealots before the Zerg is ready, as well as faster tech. All in the early game where every second is precious. The weaknesses to this build are 12 hatchery and 9 pool. So after Mini did a no scout build twice, Zero tried to punish him with a 12 hatchery. Only, Mini knew this would happen, so he did a 99 gate. As for the 9 pool option, well we saw what happened in game 5. Zero blundered the offense after getting tilted in that game, true, but Mini is one of the best Protosses at defending against lings thanks to his flawless micro. For more background, Mini is known as a 'pervert Protoss' who does off the wall builds often (basically 90% of his Youtube content), and is renowned for his micro. This no-scout strategy is essentially the perfect strategy for him, which relies on unpredictability and excellent micro to fend against advantageous builds. I'm sure Zergs would adapt quickly to this, but I can see progamers skipping scouting every once in a while after this. EDIT: May I also remind everyone that Queen's ZvP was 90+ before this series Thanks for the detailed explanation! I was rooting for zero but goddamn mini deserved to win. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11087 Posts
On May 27 2021 18:28 Magic Powers wrote: Hmm, Bisu doesn't exist I guess. Back in his era. I don’t look to Stork for PvT these days either. | ||
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oxKnu
1260 Posts
On May 27 2021 18:43 M2 wrote: he is a streamer now. the scene is small and the gap between streamers and the pseudo pros is not big, but still, its there It's pretty incredible what non-sense people prefer to conjure up. Bisu has by far the best online stats of anyone except Flash in the last 2 years. Including the best PvZ. By even a larger margin. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On May 29 2021 06:52 oxKnu wrote: It's pretty incredible what non-sense people prefer to conjure up. Bisu has by far the best online stats of anyone except Flash in the last 2 years. Including the best PvZ. By even a larger margin. Now that's a seriously controversial hot take I must say. Are you saying results, not personal bias, should determine skill  | ||
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TheGloob
97 Posts
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Zergxhx
China210 Posts
On May 29 2021 19:00 TheGloob wrote: anyone know if there will be an event/audience allowed for grand finals? According to Kevin, the CEO of afeecatv, I think the answer is No https://bj.afreecatv.com/ceokevin/post/72981193 https://bj.afreecatv.com/ceokevin/post/72971746 | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On May 29 2021 15:18 Magic Powers wrote: Now that's a seriously controversial hot take I must say. Are you saying results, not personal bias, should determine skill The results are Mini headed to his second finals (third counting KSL) and Bisu continuing to accomplish nothing offline in the modern era. But sure, I guess sponbbang (where he's ranked below Snow) shows his objective greatness. | ||
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ggsimida
1156 Posts
but is that better than mini's 3 grand finals appearance? hmm | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On May 30 2021 10:45 ggsimida wrote: bisu won a sonic league back in 2014. he also achieve 3rd and 4th in asl3 and asl4 respectively (not sure why thats not included in his liquipedia bio at time of this post lmao). so you can't say he didn't do nuthing but is that better than mini's 3 grand finals appearance? hmm You forgot that he also made the finals for SSL11 and VANT where he lost to hero and effort respectively. This idea that Bisu did nothing is quite silly. It's true that he's currently struggling, but few Protoss are at his level when he's on his game. He can play PvZ like none other and his online sponmatch results are top level from what I hear. Results: 1st place (SSL9) 2nd place (SSL11 and VANT) 3rd place (ASL3) 4th place (ASL4) Mini: 1st or 2nd place (ASL11) 2nd place (ASL7 and KSL) 4th place (ASL5) | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
 Counting each single game, he has a 62.1% (41 : 25) winrate in 2021. In 2020 it was 58.9% (73 : 51).  Bisu/MatchesDo not mistake this as me downplaying Mini's achievements. His results (especially as of late) are impressive. Using the same metric as above, his 2021 results so far are... wait for it... 62.1% (36 : 22), the same winrate as Bisu's, just over a smaller sample. In 2020 it was 47.9% (34 : 37). Mini/MatchesBoth Bisu and Mini keep improving their winrates. Bisu in 2019 (after his return) had 51.9% (14 : 13). He has improved consistently and very significantly, so the only direction for him in the near future seems to be up (perhaps also for everyone else since Flash is afk). Likewise Mini has improved very significantly, being pretty much neck-and-neck with Bisu now. To conclude: we don't have to downplay Bisu's skill just to emphasize Mini's. They're both two of the strongest players at the moment. | ||
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TMNT
3230 Posts
Not trying to undermine Mini, but come on, he's on a hot run this ASL. Some people only watch ASL and draw conclusions from the small sample size they see. Long-term speaking, he's still behind Bisu, Best and Snow. | ||
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oxKnu
1260 Posts
Bisu has never played KSL, he's been gone for 2 years because of military while Mini has been playing every single BW tournament in the last 5 years in Korea. --- All that being said, Bisu still has the best record of any Protoss in the remastered era in sponbbang stats. So if you want to take the angle of 'stats' please pause and re-consider your empty, uninformed arguments. As a personal opinion, I think right now Mini is the best protoss but this has only been a recent development (maybe last 6-10 months), up until then there were many protosses at the same level: best, snow, mini with Bisu still being the most consistent performer out of all. | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On May 30 2021 16:34 Magic Powers wrote: I'm just wondering wherefrom people get their alcohol that it makes them say Bisu has been "accomplishing nothing". I want some of that quality Counting each single game, he has a 62.1% (41 : 25) winrate in 2021. In 2020 it was 58.9% (73 : 51). Bisu/MatchesDo not mistake this as me downplaying Mini's achievements. His results (especially as of late) are impressive. Using the same metric as above, his 2021 results so far are... wait for it... 62.1% (36 : 22), the same winrate as Bisu's, just over a smaller sample. In 2020 it was 47.9% (34 : 37). Mini/MatchesBoth Bisu and Mini keep improving their winrates. Bisu in 2019 (after his return) had 51.9% (14 : 13). He has improved consistently and very significantly, so the only direction for him in the near future seems to be up (perhaps also for everyone else since Flash is afk). Likewise Mini has improved very significantly, being pretty much neck-and-neck with Bisu now. To conclude: we don't have to downplay Bisu's skill just to emphasize Mini's. They're both two of the strongest players at the moment. Bisu is skilled, certainly. I'm not saying he's bad by any means. But since he's returned, he's been choking hard offline. He's in a similar position to Best in my mind: player who in theory ought to stand a good chance of winning ASL, but in reality won't ever do so,(though I will grant that Best has had more opportunity). In both cases though, the skills just don't seem to show up when they're most needed. In contrast, while he is inconsistent from tournament to tournament, Mini can deliver at a high level all the way to the finals. I initially posted because of people pulling the "uh... what about Bisu" in a discussion of Mini's achievements. I think people are getting a little too caught up on sponsored matches in making this evaluation. Right now, sSak is ranked #9, ahead of Queen, Rush, hero, Shuttle, free, Sharp, and a lot more. Shinee is sitting at a 70% win rate for the year. But it would be totally unsurprising for neither of them to qualify for next season, and neither could win ASL in their current form. But I guess my saying that means I'm ignorant of statistics and blah blah blah. Or, just maybe, you'd have have to check who those games are against and whether they can bring the same performance offline. I'm not saying anyone can't be a fan of Bisu, or that he isn't good. But in the modern era, he has a ways to go before equaling Mini's achievements or Mini's chances of winning ASL—losing to effort five years ago in the finals isn't going to cut it, at least not for me. | ||
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ruhtraeel
Canada134 Posts
It's funny because his PvZ (and PvP due to the season where it was 4 Protosses in the Ro 4) is so disproportionately better than his PvT (even more so than Bisu) that it's a total dice roll as to how far he'll go in a tournament. Because of this, even if he wins the championship, I still am hesitant in calling him the best Protoss right now, when Best and even Bisu have more well-rounded matchups. Bit of info: Mini has played something like 30 games of PvZ in the ASL, and something like 15 total games COMBINED of PvT and PvP. He just seems to roll the PvZ matchup way more. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On May 31 2021 03:55 QOGQOG wrote: In contrast, while he is inconsistent from tournament to tournament, Mini can deliver at a high level all the way to the finals. I initially posted because of people pulling the "uh... what about Bisu" in a discussion of Mini's achievements. I'd agree that Mini's achievements can't be downplayed, he's currently one of the most promising protoss players. But the claim I responded to was that no other protoss except Mini understands PvZ. That obviously couldn't be further from the truth, since Bisu's winrate in PvZ is unmatched, even when ignoring his results before 2020. It's one thing to praise Mini, it's another to downplay Bisu. The numbers speak for themselves, and recent match results aren't the only way (imo not even the best way) of determining someone's skill. Mini's recent achievements are exceptional. It is cause for excitement, but it's not (yet) a reason to put him above Bisu skillwise, because Bisu's winrate in individual games is just as good, but he's been more consistent. I'm only afraid that Bisu might feel too dejected, causing him to give up on BW altogether because he couldn't yet find back to his old form (back when his winrate was only a few % below Flash's). I hope he eventually overcomes his frustration and gets back into the saddle. I don't see why he wouldn't be able to increase his winrate by a few more %, which would put him right back to where he used to be. I think people are getting a little too caught up on sponsored matches in making this evaluation. Right now, sSak is ranked #9, ahead of Queen, Rush, hero, Shuttle, free, Sharp, and a lot more. Shinee is sitting at a 70% win rate for the year. But it would be totally unsurprising for neither of them to qualify for next season, and neither could win ASL in their current form. But I guess my saying that means I'm ignorant of statistics and blah blah blah. That's why I tend to look at the winrate of individual games from tournament results, and I also account for the strength of the opposition. Some players have winrates that don't accurately reflect their skill because their opposition is either weaker or stronger than that of other players. Snow is a good example. His true winrate as of late sits at around 60% or something, but it's easy to think it's actually 67% because he roflstomped a number of foreigners. Meanwhile Bisu and a number of other top players almost exclusively play against strong opposition and so their results appear to be less impressive than they'd otherwise be. And you rightly point that out yourself: Or, just maybe, you'd have have to check who those games are against and whether they can bring the same performance offline. I'm not saying anyone can't be a fan of Bisu, or that he isn't good. But in the modern era, he has a ways to go before equaling Mini's achievements or Mini's chances of winning ASL—losing to effort five years ago in the finals isn't going to cut it, at least not for me. I disagree. I think Bisu is underestimating himself and so are many other people. Before he departed to the military, his winrate (post-kespa) was through the roof, somewhere around 75%. When he returned he just barely broke the 50% barrier before eventually getting over 60%. He's had a much higher winrate than Mini throughout 2020, which is why I'm calling him more consistent despite now both of them having matching winrates in individual games. That winrate is the number one predictor of future success, so it makes no sense to put Bisu's chances below Mini's. | ||
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