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[ASL11] Semifinals A - Page 7
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RWLabs
Korea (South)273 Posts
https://www.ygosu.com/community/?bid=starbbs&idx=3465418&frombest=Y | ||
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Optimate
250 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
I really did not expect this. Mini played amazingly. After he messed up early in game 1, Zero was practically toying with him as he finished him off, and I figured that Mini was too nervous and Zero too seasoned, and that the rest of the series was a forgone conclusion. I don't remember the last time I was so convincingly proven wrong about the outcome of a starcraft match. Mini just opened up a can of whup-ass. Thanks to the poster who explained about the no-scout builds and the mind game behind the double proxy gate. That's very helpful. And congratulations to Zero, too, for a very high placement in his third ASL after double victories. That's pretty impressive! | ||
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Sonic_md
Moldova278 Posts
On May 24 2021 13:50 Optimate wrote: What do people think about Mini’s odds against Hero? Zero was a good opponent. Is Hero in better shape than Zero? i think mini vs larva will be more amazing final, and mo excellent games.let`s see tomorrow)) | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
Granted I don't know anything about hero's ZvZ. Maybe someone else has insights? | ||
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Leonix
161 Posts
Queen hasnt played well this season, i dont get why they thought it would be easy for him. The only reason he went so far was on one hand he was seeded and on the other hand, queen is just that good, that even when he plays horrible still good enought to beat all players. Of course he needs to win more than one time... Pretty unreal with the stuff he is bringing to this season. Even in Game 1 vs Mini in the semisfinals, he made questionables engagements, good lucky at the cannonrush multiple times ... Mini cancealing pylon, cancealing cannon, Mini kiling his own pylon... Than making more than questionable decision, losing so many hydras for free... running into storms multiple times ... On a map that arguable has some benefits for Zerg in cancealing toss 3rd ... Like low ground expansion... And the last game being mental breakdown or whatever... A symbol for his whole season really ... Getting lucky with his opponents/opponents condition and build, but making very bad decisions and mistakes. A hard day for Zero fans | ||
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LpTraxamillion
265 Posts
On May 24 2021 13:50 Optimate wrote: What do people think about Mini’s odds against Hero? Zero was a good opponent. Is Hero in better shape than Zero? Yea Hero has been looking much better than Zero no doubt. Hero is the #1 Zerg at the moment imo. He will be huge favorite vs mini. Probably wins 4-2/4-1 | ||
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LpTraxamillion
265 Posts
On May 24 2021 18:26 Leonix wrote: Lol, Wtf some of the guys here really seem to be on a trip of some sort... Queen hasnt played well this season, i dont get why they thought it would be easy for him. The only reason he went so far was on one hand he was seeded and on the other hand, queen is just that good, that even when he plays horrible still good enought to beat all players. Of course he needs to win more than one time... Pretty unreal with the stuff he is bringing to this season. Even in Game 1 vs Mini in the semisfinals, he made questionables engagements, good lucky at the cannonrush multiple times ... Mini cancealing pylon, cancealing cannon, Mini kiling his own pylon... Than making more than questionable decision, losing so many hydras for free... running into storms multiple times ... On a map that arguable has some benefits for Zerg in cancealing toss 3rd ... Like low ground expansion... And the last game being mental breakdown or whatever... A symbol for his whole season really ... Getting lucky with his opponents/opponents condition and build, but making very bad decisions and mistakes. A hard day for Zero fans Sad truth. Zero has looked like trash for months. Can't even win spongames anymore. After ASTL he just stopped trying or something | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
When their race is owning, it's not imbalance -> Zerg players are the best at the top level When a top Zerg Player X loses -> oh no, he's in a slump, the top Zerg now is actually Player Y... Basically, top Zergs at top form are the best BW/SC2 players ever. Mini played superbly well. Why is it so hard to accept that? Sure, Zero made mistakes, but if it was the reverse, Zerg fanboys will be saying "Yeah, Zero is awesome, he forces mistakes out of top Terran/Protoss, Zero can only play against the opponent that's in front of him, unfair to take away his greatness just because others bungle up, blah blah..." | ||
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Destroyer
Czech Republic949 Posts
On May 24 2021 12:49 RWLabs wrote: Did no one in the thread mention that Mini didn't scout in games 2, 3, and 5? What Bisu and Sea (and all of Ygosu) were impressed by is that by not scouting, the Protoss can pull the tech tree forwards quite a bit- according to Bisu it's about 100 extra minerals by the natural expansion timing. This means a horde of zealots before the Zerg is ready, as well as faster tech. All in the early game where every second is precious. The weaknesses to this build are 12 hatchery and 9 pool. So after Mini did a no scout build twice, Zero tried to punish him with a 12 hatchery. Only, Mini knew this would happen, so he did a 99 gate. As for the 9 pool option, well we saw what happened in game 5. Zero blundered the offense after getting tilted in that game, true, but Mini is one of the best Protosses at defending against lings thanks to his flawless micro. For more background, Mini is known as a 'pervert Protoss' who does off the wall builds often (basically 90% of his Youtube content), and is renowned for his micro. This no-scout strategy is essentially the perfect strategy for him, which relies on unpredictability and excellent micro to fend against advantageous builds. I'm sure Zergs would adapt quickly to this, but I can see progamers skipping scouting every once in a while after this. EDIT: May I also remind everyone that Queen's ZvP was 90+ before this series Oh finally someone mentioned here. Mini really brought different meta into those games. Not scouting untill hydrabust timing (which is pretty much the only thing you really want to scout), was great. Also he made only one cannon and no more, when he was sure there is no hydrabust comming. Another thing to mention, he was saving his zealots and massing them instead of sending one by one around map with questionable results, while only faking his pressure (forcing Queen to make zerglings), that really gave him more substantial edge when +1 upg / legs combo was done. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On May 25 2021 00:31 Destroyer wrote: Oh finally someone mentioned here. Mini really brought different meta into those games. Not scouting untill hydrabust timing (which is pretty much the only thing you really want to scout), was great. Also he made only one cannon and no more, when he was sure there is no hydrabust comming. Another thing to mention, he was saving his zealots and massing them instead of sending one by one around map with questionable results, while only faking his pressure (forcing Queen to make zerglings), that really gave him more substantial edge when +1 upg / legs combo was done. Yes, his gameplan was very different from the other PvZ games throughout this ASL (Bisu, Snow, etc). The standard meta seems to be keep pumping zealots to pressure the Zerg. So mini's no-scout and timing zealot bombs must've really thrown Zero off-guard. I remember their group matches being quite dynamic and refreshing as well. Maybe a good idea to compare both sets to analyse how both players played differently and tried to mind-game each other. As for Zero's botched ling all-in, he probably came up with the build on the fly to react to mini's unorthodox no-scout build. But it's probably not a build he's been practising much, hence his poor execution. So kudos for mini to forcing Zero to play risky and deviate from preparation. Zero's mess up still stems from mini's overall great strategy throughout the series. | ||
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Duke_nk
38 Posts
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
I love to see it! Protoss in the finals and a bunch of ZvZ to look forward to in the meantime  | ||
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LpTraxamillion
265 Posts
On May 24 2021 23:24 RKC wrote: Zerg fanboys are really such a salty af bunch lol (both in BW and SC2). When their race is owning, it's not imbalance -> Zerg players are the best at the top level When a top Zerg Player X loses -> oh no, he's in a slump, the top Zerg now is actually Player Y... Basically, top Zergs at top form are the best BW/SC2 players ever. Mini played superbly well. Why is it so hard to accept that? Sure, Zero made mistakes, but if it was the reverse, Zerg fanboys will be saying "Yeah, Zero is awesome, he forces mistakes out of top Terran/Protoss, Zero can only play against the opponent that's in front of him, unfair to take away his greatness just because others bungle up, blah blah..." You aren't wrong in your assessment of the fans, but the zerg fans aren't wrong either. The Zerg broodwar players in general are just better besides a few select players from the other races like Flash, Last, Snow | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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Leonix
161 Posts
On May 24 2021 23:24 RKC wrote: Zerg fanboys are really such a salty af bunch lol (both in BW and SC2). When their race is owning, it's not imbalance -> Zerg players are the best at the top level When a top Zerg Player X loses -> oh no, he's in a slump, the top Zerg now is actually Player Y... Basically, top Zergs at top form are the best BW/SC2 players ever. Mini played superbly well. Why is it so hard to accept that? Sure, Zero made mistakes, but if it was the reverse, Zerg fanboys will be saying "Yeah, Zero is awesome, he forces mistakes out of top Terran/Protoss, Zero can only play against the opponent that's in front of him, unfair to take away his greatness just because others bungle up, blah blah..." Mini played really well. Zerg is imbalanced in both broodwar and SC2. Zero played horrible, why ? @https://www.afreecatv.com/total_search.html?szLocation=main&szSearchType=total&szKeyword=asl11&szStype=di&szActype=&has_hint=false&pk_cnt=0@ | ||
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RWLabs
Korea (South)273 Posts
Queen just has a losing matchup against last Protosses of any tournament. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
I do hope that the final ends up being Mini vs Larva since neither has won one and I think their style would clash a lot in comparison to Larva vs hero, but guess I'll find out soon enough. On May 24 2021 12:49 RWLabs wrote: Did no one in the thread mention that Mini didn't scout in games 2, 3, and 5? What Bisu and Sea (and all of Ygosu) were impressed by is that by not scouting, the Protoss can pull the tech tree forwards quite a bit- according to Bisu it's about 100 extra minerals by the natural expansion timing. This means a horde of zealots before the Zerg is ready, as well as faster tech. All in the early game where every second is precious. The weaknesses to this build are 12 hatchery and 9 pool. So after Mini did a no scout build twice, Zero tried to punish him with a 12 hatchery. Only, Mini knew this would happen, so he did a 99 gate. As for the 9 pool option, well we saw what happened in game 5. Zero blundered the offense after getting tilted in that game, true, but Mini is one of the best Protosses at defending against lings thanks to his flawless micro. For more background, Mini is known as a 'pervert Protoss' who does off the wall builds often (basically 90% of his Youtube content), and is renowned for his micro. This no-scout strategy is essentially the perfect strategy for him, which relies on unpredictability and excellent micro to fend against advantageous builds. I'm sure Zergs would adapt quickly to this, but I can see progamers skipping scouting every once in a while after this. EDIT: May I also remind everyone that Queen's ZvP was 90+ before this series Thanks for sharing. Just to clarify, ZerO's ZvP was apparently ~78% according to ASL stats before this series because both Mini and Shuttle gave him some losses in the group stage. | ||
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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kaspa84
Brazil169 Posts
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