On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote: BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it.
But a balance patch means you have to patch two of the races in order to not completely break the other MU's:
* Buff Protoss somehow so they're not legless chicken to Zerg anymore in the early-mid game - need to adjust PvT as well in that case though or somehow avoid breaking that MU. * Take away some of Zerg's cheap/cost-effectiveness possibilities - need to seriously address the ZvT matchup too in that case though.
I think the process above would be simpler if you'd try to balance it against a set of maps (CB/FS/Sylphid etc), basically maps that have been proven to be as balanced as possible in the modern era of BW, as opposed to worying with what might happen on Plasma and Sparkle or any other non-sense like that.
funny when snow has actually said pvz is easier than pvt and soma said zvp is harder than zvt. PvZ has never been in such good state. I like how you judge based on a series. Zero is much more skilled than best and has always been the kryptonite for best. ZvP has gotten so much harder.
Lmao. I'm not just looking at what snow said or what amateurs do, I'm looking at asl these past few seasons and looking at the protosses that get their ass kicked in at the highest level. Snow got stomped by soma. Snow, arguably the best toss in the world right now. Best also got stomped even though his Korean elo ranking was 2nd, only behind flash. Until I see some protoss that can stand up to asl zergs consistently, I'm not going to fool myself into thinking that zergs have a hard time against toss.
However, I'm not asking for a balance patch at all. I'm just waiting for a hero protoss that can beat these zergs. Can't really see any right now.
I admit that zerg is a STRONG RACE to play in a series vs protoss. Zerg can pull out lot of strategy and play unconventionally and throw off protoss. What I do not like is that people think zvp is imba. It's not imba, not even close. Soma said if games go straight up standard like 2 forge toss vs 5 hat lair zerg, protoss is actually FAVORED. You have to kill toss from early or severely handicap him in mid game.
With access to plague in the late game I fail to see how the zerg is under any pressure to end the game early. If anything it is the opposite. Plague is incredible vs toss, you have no counter to it. On top of that, the constant threat of drops is oppressive. One control groups of crackling in your base is game ending.
I do not want a balance patch either, but there is not denying that pvz is in a terrible state right now. It feels like protoss have no answer. I am hoping for another bisu-esque revolution in the matchup but I just don't see it happening any time soon.
On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote: BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it.
But a balance patch means you have to patch two of the races in order to not completely break the other MU's:
* Buff Protoss somehow so they're not legless chicken to Zerg anymore in the early-mid game - need to adjust PvT as well in that case though or somehow avoid breaking that MU. * Take away some of Zerg's cheap/cost-effectiveness possibilities - need to seriously address the ZvT matchup too in that case though.
I think the process above would be simpler if you'd try to balance it against a set of maps (CB/FS/Sylphid etc), basically maps that have been proven to be as balanced as possible in the modern era of BW, as opposed to worying with what might happen on Plasma and Sparkle or any other non-sense like that.
funny when snow has actually said pvz is easier than pvt and soma said zvp is harder than zvt. PvZ has never been in such good state. I like how you judge based on a series. Zero is much more skilled than best and has always been the kryptonite for best. ZvP has gotten so much harder.
Lmao. I'm not just looking at what snow said or what amateurs do, I'm looking at asl these past few seasons and looking at the protosses that get their ass kicked in at the highest level. Snow got stomped by soma. Snow, arguably the best toss in the world right now. Best also got stomped even though his Korean elo ranking was 2nd, only behind flash. Until I see some protoss that can stand up to asl zergs consistently, I'm not going to fool myself into thinking that zergs have a hard time against toss.
However, I'm not asking for a balance patch at all. I'm just waiting for a hero protoss that can beat these zergs. Can't really see any right now.
I admit that zerg is a STRONG RACE to play in a series vs protoss. Zerg can pull out lot of strategy and play unconventionally and throw off protoss. What I do not like is that people think zvp is imba. It's not imba, not even close. Soma said if games go straight up standard like 2 forge toss vs 5 hat lair zerg, protoss is actually FAVORED. You have to kill toss from early or severely handicap him in mid game.
With access to plague in the late game I fail to see how the zerg is under any pressure to end the game early. If anything it is the opposite. Plague is incredible vs toss, you have no counter to it. On top of that, the constant threat of drops is oppressive. One control groups of crackling in your base is game ending.
I do not want a balance patch either, but there is not denying that pvz is in a terrible state right now. It feels like protoss have no answer. I am hoping for another bisu-esque revolution in the matchup but I just don't see it happening any time soon.
Once toss brings out archons/reavers it tilts toward toss. Plague is strong but it becomes pretty mute once toss transitions into heavy tech army
On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote: BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it.
But a balance patch means you have to patch two of the races in order to not completely break the other MU's:
* Buff Protoss somehow so they're not legless chicken to Zerg anymore in the early-mid game - need to adjust PvT as well in that case though or somehow avoid breaking that MU. * Take away some of Zerg's cheap/cost-effectiveness possibilities - need to seriously address the ZvT matchup too in that case though.
I think the process above would be simpler if you'd try to balance it against a set of maps (CB/FS/Sylphid etc), basically maps that have been proven to be as balanced as possible in the modern era of BW, as opposed to worying with what might happen on Plasma and Sparkle or any other non-sense like that.
funny when snow has actually said pvz is easier than pvt and soma said zvp is harder than zvt. PvZ has never been in such good state. I like how you judge based on a series. Zero is much more skilled than best and has always been the kryptonite for best. ZvP has gotten so much harder.
Lmao. I'm not just looking at what snow said or what amateurs do, I'm looking at asl these past few seasons and looking at the protosses that get their ass kicked in at the highest level. Snow got stomped by soma. Snow, arguably the best toss in the world right now. Best also got stomped even though his Korean elo ranking was 2nd, only behind flash. Until I see some protoss that can stand up to asl zergs consistently, I'm not going to fool myself into thinking that zergs have a hard time against toss.
However, I'm not asking for a balance patch at all. I'm just waiting for a hero protoss that can beat these zergs. Can't really see any right now.
I admit that zerg is a STRONG RACE to play in a series vs protoss. Zerg can pull out lot of strategy and play unconventionally and throw off protoss. What I do not like is that people think zvp is imba. It's not imba, not even close. Soma said if games go straight up standard like 2 forge toss vs 5 hat lair zerg, protoss is actually FAVORED. You have to kill toss from early or severely handicap him in mid game.
Instead of regurgitating what some pro said on stream at some point to diminish the advantage his race has in a certain match-up I recommend you actually watch some PvZ series in KSL and ASL from recent years to understand a bit more the underlying theme of the topic.
idk. maybe play a game of zvp at 2100~2400 level and see for yourself what zergs at top 500~1200 are experiencing? Or maybe I should listen to top tier pros rather than rely on my noob knowledge to see oh zero beat best. obviously IMBA ZVP
On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote: BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it.
But a balance patch means you have to patch two of the races in order to not completely break the other MU's:
* Buff Protoss somehow so they're not legless chicken to Zerg anymore in the early-mid game - need to adjust PvT as well in that case though or somehow avoid breaking that MU. * Take away some of Zerg's cheap/cost-effectiveness possibilities - need to seriously address the ZvT matchup too in that case though.
I think the process above would be simpler if you'd try to balance it against a set of maps (CB/FS/Sylphid etc), basically maps that have been proven to be as balanced as possible in the modern era of BW, as opposed to worying with what might happen on Plasma and Sparkle or any other non-sense like that.
funny when snow has actually said pvz is easier than pvt and soma said zvp is harder than zvt. PvZ has never been in such good state. I like how you judge based on a series. Zero is much more skilled than best and has always been the kryptonite for best. ZvP has gotten so much harder.
Lmao. I'm not just looking at what snow said or what amateurs do, I'm looking at asl these past few seasons and looking at the protosses that get their ass kicked in at the highest level. Snow got stomped by soma. Snow, arguably the best toss in the world right now. Best also got stomped even though his Korean elo ranking was 2nd, only behind flash. Until I see some protoss that can stand up to asl zergs consistently, I'm not going to fool myself into thinking that zergs have a hard time against toss.
However, I'm not asking for a balance patch at all. I'm just waiting for a hero protoss that can beat these zergs. Can't really see any right now.
I admit that zerg is a STRONG RACE to play in a series vs protoss. Zerg can pull out lot of strategy and play unconventionally and throw off protoss. What I do not like is that people think zvp is imba. It's not imba, not even close. Soma said if games go straight up standard like 2 forge toss vs 5 hat lair zerg, protoss is actually FAVORED. You have to kill toss from early or severely handicap him in mid game.
With access to plague in the late game I fail to see how the zerg is under any pressure to end the game early. If anything it is the opposite. Plague is incredible vs toss, you have no counter to it. On top of that, the constant threat of drops is oppressive. One control groups of crackling in your base is game ending.
I do not want a balance patch either, but there is not denying that pvz is in a terrible state right now. It feels like protoss have no answer. I am hoping for another bisu-esque revolution in the matchup but I just don't see it happening any time soon.
Once toss brings out archons/reavers it tilts toward toss. Plague is strong but it becomes pretty mute once toss transitions into heavy tech army
I do agree with you on the reaver aspect. I find it frustrating how little reavers are used in pvz, though I can also understand why toss don't do it as it is far more punishing if you screw up, specially in the early game. I think back to that snow vs soulkey game on whiteout from last season in which snow skipped HT and went straight reavers, completely dismantling soulkey. It gave me hope for the future.
On October 28 2020 06:08 Plume wrote: man when will best be able to win a starleague
Also, when will Snow? And when Mini? Those great Protoss players seem to lack killer instinct, unlike Rain.
We don't need any Zerg favored map pool right now, I hope next ASL's will be significantly different. As for now, I would be thrilled to see a Soma vs Larva in the grand final!
On October 28 2020 06:52 Sr18 wrote: Best was completely outplayed by Zero today. Don't see how this series is indicative of whatever balance issue there might be.
Mmm, it is exactly indicative if balance issues.
When the opposing race can freely A move units into your natural base and have a 70% chance of winning the game - no matter what happens next it is a pretty clear sign that there is no balance whatsoever to be found.
On October 28 2020 06:52 Sr18 wrote: Best was completely outplayed by Zero today. Don't see how this series is indicative of whatever balance issue there might be.
Mmm, it is exactly indicative if balance issues.
When the opposing race can freely A move units into your natural base and have a 70% chance of winning the game - no matter what happens next it is a pretty clear sign that there is no balance whatsoever to be found.
That's a big mischaracterization of what happened.
Zero is really, really good and he played really, really well.
Best is really good too and he had his moments, but if you want to use this Bo5 as evidence of imbalance, you have to be able to assert that he played just as well as Zero. So, did he?
Most disappointing ro8 series in a long time... Even FlaSh vs. Rush looked better. BeSt choked the most than he ever choked during his entire career. He couldn't even show his signature macro style, getting shutted down so badly at early game - and it's not like ZerO was outstanding, it's BeSt not being able to survive...
Just go away with the patch talk. FFS one of the worst things that could happen to the game would be some nonesense noob coming and convincing people that a patch is needed, and then turn the nonesense into a bandwagon that dumb blizzard would feel the need to cater to.
This and last season is a product of maps. maps have a significant impact on things. A few seasons ago maps were freaking P favoured so you had Flash and a bunch of Ps in the semis and zergs were sad. Now you have Flash and a bunch of zergs. It happens when the maps are designed to favour such a thing.
It is not the game, its deliberate decisions to have maps made in a certain way.
On October 28 2020 08:45 KobraKay wrote: Just go away with the patch talk. FFS one of the worst things that could happen to the game would be some nonesense noob coming and convincing people that a patch is needed, and then turn the nonesense into a bandwagon that dumb blizzard would feel the need to cater to.
This and last season is a product of maps. maps have a significant impact on things. A few seasons ago maps were freaking P favoured so you had Flash and a bunch of Ps in the semis and zergs were sad. Now you have Flash and a bunch of zergs. It happens when the maps are designed to favour such a thing.
It is not the game, its deliberate decisions to have maps made in a certain way.
I've been repeating this for years, people will never understand. The game is perfectly balanced.
These map look incredibly Z favored, maybe P need more preparation against them, but I don't know, especially Plasma, Z makes lurkers and it's one of the easiest breaks into the eggs. P doesn't have great answers to the eggs. Z never really went (or needed) mutas either because it can just be 3 base 5 hatch hydra, and it's strong enough already. P needs to switch it up, need reaver harass, DTs, something. I almost feel that every P are outclassed by Z in all of the games (maybe not Best vs Action, but come on, going 4gate goon is uhh?).
On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote: BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it.
But a balance patch means you have to patch two of the races in order to not completely break the other MU's:
* Buff Protoss somehow so they're not legless chicken to Zerg anymore in the early-mid game - need to adjust PvT as well in that case though or somehow avoid breaking that MU. * Take away some of Zerg's cheap/cost-effectiveness possibilities - need to seriously address the ZvT matchup too in that case though.
I think the process above would be simpler if you'd try to balance it against a set of maps (CB/FS/Sylphid etc), basically maps that have been proven to be as balanced as possible in the modern era of BW, as opposed to worying with what might happen on Plasma and Sparkle or any other non-sense like that.
Zero is much more skilled than best and has always been the kryptonite for best..
Best has a winning record vs Zero in spon-games (30+ games) this season.
Thanks for trying.
so that would mean... pvz is alright?
because best has a winning record?
and he just had a bad day?
...
you just killed your own argument, congrats.
I'm so glad you caught this while I was reading along because hahahaha holy damn it's such a self-own I can't even properly process it.
EPT
