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On October 28 2020 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2020 00:57 oxKnu wrote:On October 28 2020 00:35 BisuDagger wrote:On October 28 2020 00:29 oxKnu wrote:On October 27 2020 23:52 Garrl wrote:On October 27 2020 23:31 oxKnu wrote:On October 27 2020 23:12 Garrl wrote:On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote:
BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it. [citation needed] on "everybody knows it," because I sure don't, and I sure don't trust that Blizzard could deliver a good balance patch. We've seen periods of BW where one matchup has been in a hole for ages. It's what creates innovation - the original Bisu build was invented as a reaction to zergs dominating zvp, which lead to zergs reacting with their own innovations, and so on. Doesn't help that ASL keep throwing in these janky old maps in their map pool which don't hold up to modern balance at all. Your post reads like a TL blog-post, in theory quite appealing and with beautiful words embedded in all paragraphs but fails miserably to align with reality. If you treat Flash as an outlier (as you should), Zergs have been demolishing the highest tier of competitive BW for quite awhile now. Certainly since 2012 to a very high frequency. This includes spon-games which are the most important measure of BW balance in the last 3-4 years. lol, because peak TL posting isn't when you call for balance patches in an LR thread? You just... can't discount the top player of the game when talking about balance, because he represents the current highest level and - in a game being actively patched - the balance should be pivoting around the best players. If you were in charge of balance, apparently you would also be buffing Flash because the median terran player isn't doing well. In all ASL ro4s, not discounting Flash because to do so is terrible logic and you'd have to remove all other #1 players of each race, you get 13 terran players, 12 protoss, 14 zerg and 1 random. That is balanced by any means of testing. Plenty of logical fallacies in this post as well. We were mainly talking about high-level PvZ, why is Flash important in this discussion? Removing him from the discussion or not does not affect the hypothesis that PvZ is largely imbalanced (post Bisu-era developments included) Balance is when the games at the highest stakes don't look like a theatrical beatdown between players that have very similar skill levels in their other matchups. At the Top Korean level it can certainly feel like a patch is needed to fix things, but when you look at the BSL the racial distribution is perfect and you don't feel the heavy burden of racial imbalance. On a foreign level, the game in its current state is balanced really well and even the maps aren't that bad balance wise. https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Bombastic_StarLeague_10 Foreigner-level is several tiers below the level we are talking about here though. It's not really a factor. It's worth noting that having full-time gamers that have dedicated 10+ years of their life into perfecting their game is the best indicator of balance we can have and without a doubt it's been pointing towards a heavily imbalanced MU (PvZ). It's a HUGE factor when considering a patch for the game. When a game is balanced for everyone, but the absolute highest tier of players, it doesn't make sense to patch the game. edit: I'm just play Devil's advocate here. I'm not entirely against a PTR patch where something like HT health was looked at like Artosis brought up in the cast. Imagine adding 20 hp to a HT or increasing the speed by even 1 unit. I think it'd be really interesting to see how that changes things. Starting Shield Battery energy increase would also be a cool thing to look at.
Whilst that take seems justifiably correct the reality of the matter is that the e-sport Korean scene is all that really matters and has been that way for a long time and is the primary reason we are having this discussion anyway.
BW is a lot of things but not necessarily everyone's go-to Sunday leisure gaming activity (that would somehow be ostracized by a balance patch).
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A ZvZ Bo7 is fitting for how shitty 2020 has been.
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On October 27 2020 20:35 Kaal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2020 20:27 Terrorbladder wrote:
Why don't Protoss just build Reavers Cuz then you die to mutas. Edit: To expand, you have to go HT, because if you don't have storm you will get shitstomped by zerg pressing SH. If you try to just go reavers, zerg can freely just build muta or scourge to just scourge down your shuttle and then your reaver is going to do jack all. You can't go sair/HT/Reaver you just dont have the gas. Hopefully 973 gets nerfed in the next map pool, I have faith in Gyuyul to fix it. He did try with this pool but it was just not the way. There IS an up and coming 6 gate with an 8 gate variant that does well but it's SO tight and SO micro intenstive, and Zerg is so flexible in 973 that it might not end up working, we'll see.
you just look at top tier pro and just decide zvp is op? do you know how hard zvp is in amateur level? Even snow said pvz is doable and pvt is actually harder at that level..
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On October 27 2020 22:19 Golgotha wrote:
spam hydralisks and win is basically what Z has to do. get a couple lurkers or a ton of them if you really want to beat down on the toss. Toss has to play like a god to keep Z from growing too fast. And when Z gets to hive, cracklings just rip apart everything unless you have this perfect army and land all your storms. Then we have to face defilers with plague that decimate our armies.
PvZ is a shit show and only Bisu's harass style is what I have faith in. Otherwise most Ps just let the Zerg get a nice fat economy and die to hydra/lurker. Flash might have an answer though...I honestly have more faith in Flash than any other current protoss. Seeing how he fucked up snow with his storms and reaver harass, makes me think that he has a good chance if he can maintain map presence and go for heavy harass play in a PvZ. Sitting back and taking a third isn't going to do shit when the zerg is already on his 4th and now has a lurker field that shuts down half the damn map.
zvp is a shit show in amateur scene. Snow actually said PVZ is EASIER than pvt. Its on his youtube channel. Best just got outplayed hard. pvz has never been in such good state. Soma thinks zvp is actually harder than zvt
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On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote:
BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it.
But a balance patch means you have to patch two of the races in order to not completely break the other MU's:
* Buff Protoss somehow so they're not legless chicken to Zerg anymore in the early-mid game - need to adjust PvT as well in that case though or somehow avoid breaking that MU.
* Take away some of Zerg's cheap/cost-effectiveness possibilities - need to seriously address the ZvT matchup too in that case though.
I think the process above would be simpler if you'd try to balance it against a set of maps (CB/FS/Sylphid etc), basically maps that have been proven to be as balanced as possible in the modern era of BW, as opposed to worying with what might happen on Plasma and Sparkle or any other non-sense like that.
funny when snow has actually said pvz is easier than pvt and soma said zvp is harder than zvt. PvZ has never been in such good state. I like how you judge based on a series. Zero is much more skilled than best and has always been the kryptonite for best. ZvP has gotten so much harder.
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On October 28 2020 01:29 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote:
BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it.
But a balance patch means you have to patch two of the races in order to not completely break the other MU's:
* Buff Protoss somehow so they're not legless chicken to Zerg anymore in the early-mid game - need to adjust PvT as well in that case though or somehow avoid breaking that MU.
* Take away some of Zerg's cheap/cost-effectiveness possibilities - need to seriously address the ZvT matchup too in that case though.
I think the process above would be simpler if you'd try to balance it against a set of maps (CB/FS/Sylphid etc), basically maps that have been proven to be as balanced as possible in the modern era of BW, as opposed to worying with what might happen on Plasma and Sparkle or any other non-sense like that. Zero is much more skilled than best and has always been the kryptonite for best..
Best has a winning record vs Zero in spon-games (30+ games) this season.
Thanks for trying.
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On October 28 2020 01:31 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2020 01:29 Shinokuki wrote:On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote:
BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it.
But a balance patch means you have to patch two of the races in order to not completely break the other MU's:
* Buff Protoss somehow so they're not legless chicken to Zerg anymore in the early-mid game - need to adjust PvT as well in that case though or somehow avoid breaking that MU.
* Take away some of Zerg's cheap/cost-effectiveness possibilities - need to seriously address the ZvT matchup too in that case though.
I think the process above would be simpler if you'd try to balance it against a set of maps (CB/FS/Sylphid etc), basically maps that have been proven to be as balanced as possible in the modern era of BW, as opposed to worying with what might happen on Plasma and Sparkle or any other non-sense like that. Zero is much more skilled than best and has always been the kryptonite for best.. Best has a winning record vs Zero in spon-games (30+ games) this season. Thanks for trying.
so that would mean... pvz is alright?
because best has a winning record?
and he just had a bad day?
...
you just killed your own argument, congrats.
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On October 28 2020 00:42 Garrl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2020 00:29 oxKnu wrote:On October 27 2020 23:52 Garrl wrote:On October 27 2020 23:31 oxKnu wrote:On October 27 2020 23:12 Garrl wrote:On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote:
BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it. [citation needed] on "everybody knows it," because I sure don't, and I sure don't trust that Blizzard could deliver a good balance patch. We've seen periods of BW where one matchup has been in a hole for ages. It's what creates innovation - the original Bisu build was invented as a reaction to zergs dominating zvp, which lead to zergs reacting with their own innovations, and so on. Doesn't help that ASL keep throwing in these janky old maps in their map pool which don't hold up to modern balance at all. Your post reads like a TL blog-post, in theory quite appealing and with beautiful words embedded in all paragraphs but fails miserably to align with reality. If you treat Flash as an outlier (as you should), Zergs have been demolishing the highest tier of competitive BW for quite awhile now. Certainly since 2012 to a very high frequency. This includes spon-games which are the most important measure of BW balance in the last 3-4 years. lol, because peak TL posting isn't when you call for balance patches in an LR thread? You just... can't discount the top player of the game when talking about balance, because he represents the current highest level and - in a game being actively patched - the balance should be pivoting around the best players. If you were in charge of balance, apparently you would also be buffing Flash because the median terran player isn't doing well. In all ASL ro4s, not discounting Flash because to do so is terrible logic and you'd have to remove all other #1 players of each race, you get 13 terran players, 12 protoss, 14 zerg and 1 random. That is balanced by any means of testing. Plenty of logical fallacies in this post as well. We were mainly talking about high-level PvZ, why is Flash important in this discussion? Removing him from the discussion or not does not affect the hypothesis that PvZ is largely imbalanced (post Bisu-era developments included) Balance is when the games at the highest stakes don't look like a theatrical beatdown between players that have very similar skill levels in their other matchups. *You* mentioned Flash as a way to disregard the highest level of play as being 'outliers': Show nested quote +If you treat Flash as an outlier (as you should), Zergs have been demolishing the highest tier of competitive BW for quite awhile now. Certainly since 2012 to a very high frequency. Show nested quote +Balance is when the games at the highest stakes don't look like a theatrical beatdown between players that have very similar skill levels in their other matchups This happens in BW, every year, in every matchup. Half the finals in BW history (OSL, MSL, ASL) are stomps, encompassing all matchups. Infact, in ASL's history, there's only been a single finals series that went to the last game.
But there are enormous amounts of stomps in ZvPs, two of them this season already. The only stomp in PvZ I remember from the past 10 years was JangBi 3-0 Soo in Jin Air Osl 2011. (Considering premier tournaments only).
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On October 28 2020 01:36 kaspa84 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2020 00:42 Garrl wrote:On October 28 2020 00:29 oxKnu wrote:On October 27 2020 23:52 Garrl wrote:On October 27 2020 23:31 oxKnu wrote:On October 27 2020 23:12 Garrl wrote:On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote:
BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it. [citation needed] on "everybody knows it," because I sure don't, and I sure don't trust that Blizzard could deliver a good balance patch. We've seen periods of BW where one matchup has been in a hole for ages. It's what creates innovation - the original Bisu build was invented as a reaction to zergs dominating zvp, which lead to zergs reacting with their own innovations, and so on. Doesn't help that ASL keep throwing in these janky old maps in their map pool which don't hold up to modern balance at all. Your post reads like a TL blog-post, in theory quite appealing and with beautiful words embedded in all paragraphs but fails miserably to align with reality. If you treat Flash as an outlier (as you should), Zergs have been demolishing the highest tier of competitive BW for quite awhile now. Certainly since 2012 to a very high frequency. This includes spon-games which are the most important measure of BW balance in the last 3-4 years. lol, because peak TL posting isn't when you call for balance patches in an LR thread? You just... can't discount the top player of the game when talking about balance, because he represents the current highest level and - in a game being actively patched - the balance should be pivoting around the best players. If you were in charge of balance, apparently you would also be buffing Flash because the median terran player isn't doing well. In all ASL ro4s, not discounting Flash because to do so is terrible logic and you'd have to remove all other #1 players of each race, you get 13 terran players, 12 protoss, 14 zerg and 1 random. That is balanced by any means of testing. Plenty of logical fallacies in this post as well. We were mainly talking about high-level PvZ, why is Flash important in this discussion? Removing him from the discussion or not does not affect the hypothesis that PvZ is largely imbalanced (post Bisu-era developments included) Balance is when the games at the highest stakes don't look like a theatrical beatdown between players that have very similar skill levels in their other matchups. *You* mentioned Flash as a way to disregard the highest level of play as being 'outliers': If you treat Flash as an outlier (as you should), Zergs have been demolishing the highest tier of competitive BW for quite awhile now. Certainly since 2012 to a very high frequency. Balance is when the games at the highest stakes don't look like a theatrical beatdown between players that have very similar skill levels in their other matchups This happens in BW, every year, in every matchup. Half the finals in BW history (OSL, MSL, ASL) are stomps, encompassing all matchups. Infact, in ASL's history, there's only been a single finals series that went to the last game. But there are enormous amounts of stomps in ZvPs, two of them this season already. The only stomp in PvZ I remember from the past 10 years was JangBi 3-0 Soo in Jin Air Osl 2011. (Considering premier tournaments only).
This is true. On average, any decent Zerg can kick out the best P of all time. Not at all the case the other way around.
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On October 28 2020 01:34 Garrl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2020 01:31 oxKnu wrote:On October 28 2020 01:29 Shinokuki wrote:On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote:
BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it.
But a balance patch means you have to patch two of the races in order to not completely break the other MU's:
* Buff Protoss somehow so they're not legless chicken to Zerg anymore in the early-mid game - need to adjust PvT as well in that case though or somehow avoid breaking that MU.
* Take away some of Zerg's cheap/cost-effectiveness possibilities - need to seriously address the ZvT matchup too in that case though.
I think the process above would be simpler if you'd try to balance it against a set of maps (CB/FS/Sylphid etc), basically maps that have been proven to be as balanced as possible in the modern era of BW, as opposed to worying with what might happen on Plasma and Sparkle or any other non-sense like that. Zero is much more skilled than best and has always been the kryptonite for best.. Best has a winning record vs Zero in spon-games (30+ games) this season. Thanks for trying. so that would mean... pvz is alright? because best has a winning record? and he just had a bad day? ... you just killed your own argument, congrats.
On the contrary I think it further strengthens the notion that PvZ is imbalanced.
Although they had a record close to 50% in sponsored/team games, Zero dispatched him with surgical precision and ease on the same maps in less than an hour, commercials included.
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On October 28 2020 01:36 kaspa84 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2020 00:42 Garrl wrote:On October 28 2020 00:29 oxKnu wrote:On October 27 2020 23:52 Garrl wrote:On October 27 2020 23:31 oxKnu wrote:On October 27 2020 23:12 Garrl wrote:On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote:
BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it. [citation needed] on "everybody knows it," because I sure don't, and I sure don't trust that Blizzard could deliver a good balance patch. We've seen periods of BW where one matchup has been in a hole for ages. It's what creates innovation - the original Bisu build was invented as a reaction to zergs dominating zvp, which lead to zergs reacting with their own innovations, and so on. Doesn't help that ASL keep throwing in these janky old maps in their map pool which don't hold up to modern balance at all. Your post reads like a TL blog-post, in theory quite appealing and with beautiful words embedded in all paragraphs but fails miserably to align with reality. If you treat Flash as an outlier (as you should), Zergs have been demolishing the highest tier of competitive BW for quite awhile now. Certainly since 2012 to a very high frequency. This includes spon-games which are the most important measure of BW balance in the last 3-4 years. lol, because peak TL posting isn't when you call for balance patches in an LR thread? You just... can't discount the top player of the game when talking about balance, because he represents the current highest level and - in a game being actively patched - the balance should be pivoting around the best players. If you were in charge of balance, apparently you would also be buffing Flash because the median terran player isn't doing well. In all ASL ro4s, not discounting Flash because to do so is terrible logic and you'd have to remove all other #1 players of each race, you get 13 terran players, 12 protoss, 14 zerg and 1 random. That is balanced by any means of testing. Plenty of logical fallacies in this post as well. We were mainly talking about high-level PvZ, why is Flash important in this discussion? Removing him from the discussion or not does not affect the hypothesis that PvZ is largely imbalanced (post Bisu-era developments included) Balance is when the games at the highest stakes don't look like a theatrical beatdown between players that have very similar skill levels in their other matchups. *You* mentioned Flash as a way to disregard the highest level of play as being 'outliers': If you treat Flash as an outlier (as you should), Zergs have been demolishing the highest tier of competitive BW for quite awhile now. Certainly since 2012 to a very high frequency. Balance is when the games at the highest stakes don't look like a theatrical beatdown between players that have very similar skill levels in their other matchups This happens in BW, every year, in every matchup. Half the finals in BW history (OSL, MSL, ASL) are stomps, encompassing all matchups. Infact, in ASL's history, there's only been a single finals series that went to the last game. But there are enormous amounts of stomps in ZvPs, two of them this season already. The only stomp in PvZ I remember from the past 10 years was JangBi 3-0 Soo in Jin Air Osl 2011. (Considering premier tournaments only).
in ASL S7 we had rain 3-0 sacsri and 3-1 action, ASL S5 mini 3-0 larva and rain 3-1 hero to pick a few ro4 examples.
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On October 28 2020 01:43 Garrl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2020 01:36 kaspa84 wrote:On October 28 2020 00:42 Garrl wrote:On October 28 2020 00:29 oxKnu wrote:On October 27 2020 23:52 Garrl wrote:On October 27 2020 23:31 oxKnu wrote:On October 27 2020 23:12 Garrl wrote:On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote:
BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it. [citation needed] on "everybody knows it," because I sure don't, and I sure don't trust that Blizzard could deliver a good balance patch. We've seen periods of BW where one matchup has been in a hole for ages. It's what creates innovation - the original Bisu build was invented as a reaction to zergs dominating zvp, which lead to zergs reacting with their own innovations, and so on. Doesn't help that ASL keep throwing in these janky old maps in their map pool which don't hold up to modern balance at all. Your post reads like a TL blog-post, in theory quite appealing and with beautiful words embedded in all paragraphs but fails miserably to align with reality. If you treat Flash as an outlier (as you should), Zergs have been demolishing the highest tier of competitive BW for quite awhile now. Certainly since 2012 to a very high frequency. This includes spon-games which are the most important measure of BW balance in the last 3-4 years. lol, because peak TL posting isn't when you call for balance patches in an LR thread? You just... can't discount the top player of the game when talking about balance, because he represents the current highest level and - in a game being actively patched - the balance should be pivoting around the best players. If you were in charge of balance, apparently you would also be buffing Flash because the median terran player isn't doing well. In all ASL ro4s, not discounting Flash because to do so is terrible logic and you'd have to remove all other #1 players of each race, you get 13 terran players, 12 protoss, 14 zerg and 1 random. That is balanced by any means of testing. Plenty of logical fallacies in this post as well. We were mainly talking about high-level PvZ, why is Flash important in this discussion? Removing him from the discussion or not does not affect the hypothesis that PvZ is largely imbalanced (post Bisu-era developments included) Balance is when the games at the highest stakes don't look like a theatrical beatdown between players that have very similar skill levels in their other matchups. *You* mentioned Flash as a way to disregard the highest level of play as being 'outliers': If you treat Flash as an outlier (as you should), Zergs have been demolishing the highest tier of competitive BW for quite awhile now. Certainly since 2012 to a very high frequency. Balance is when the games at the highest stakes don't look like a theatrical beatdown between players that have very similar skill levels in their other matchups This happens in BW, every year, in every matchup. Half the finals in BW history (OSL, MSL, ASL) are stomps, encompassing all matchups. Infact, in ASL's history, there's only been a single finals series that went to the last game. But there are enormous amounts of stomps in ZvPs, two of them this season already. The only stomp in PvZ I remember from the past 10 years was JangBi 3-0 Soo in Jin Air Osl 2011. (Considering premier tournaments only). in ASL S7 we had rain 3-0 sacsri and 3-1 action, ASL S5 mini 3-0 larva and rain 3-1 hero to pick a few ro4 examples.
The Mini - Larva series is the only real counter-example here. Protoss clearly out-strategized the Zerg in that series.
The others were hard-fought, no matter the score.
Rain - Sacsri is a lame example. Sacsri is clearly an inferior Zerg all around.
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On October 28 2020 01:46 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2020 01:43 Garrl wrote:On October 28 2020 01:36 kaspa84 wrote:On October 28 2020 00:42 Garrl wrote:On October 28 2020 00:29 oxKnu wrote:On October 27 2020 23:52 Garrl wrote:On October 27 2020 23:31 oxKnu wrote:On October 27 2020 23:12 Garrl wrote:On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote:
BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it. [citation needed] on "everybody knows it," because I sure don't, and I sure don't trust that Blizzard could deliver a good balance patch. We've seen periods of BW where one matchup has been in a hole for ages. It's what creates innovation - the original Bisu build was invented as a reaction to zergs dominating zvp, which lead to zergs reacting with their own innovations, and so on. Doesn't help that ASL keep throwing in these janky old maps in their map pool which don't hold up to modern balance at all. Your post reads like a TL blog-post, in theory quite appealing and with beautiful words embedded in all paragraphs but fails miserably to align with reality. If you treat Flash as an outlier (as you should), Zergs have been demolishing the highest tier of competitive BW for quite awhile now. Certainly since 2012 to a very high frequency. can't you comment on the snow's quote and soma's quote? Also what rank are you lmao This includes spon-games which are the most important measure of BW balance in the last 3-4 years. lol, because peak TL posting isn't when you call for balance patches in an LR thread? You just... can't discount the top player of the game when talking about balance, because he represents the current highest level and - in a game being actively patched - the balance should be pivoting around the best players. If you were in charge of balance, apparently you would also be buffing Flash because the median terran player isn't doing well. In all ASL ro4s, not discounting Flash because to do so is terrible logic and you'd have to remove all other #1 players of each race, you get 13 terran players, 12 protoss, 14 zerg and 1 random. That is balanced by any means of testing. Plenty of logical fallacies in this post as well. We were mainly talking about high-level PvZ, why is Flash important in this discussion? Removing him from the discussion or not does not affect the hypothesis that PvZ is largely imbalanced (post Bisu-era developments included) Balance is when the games at the highest stakes don't look like a theatrical beatdown between players that have very similar skill levels in their other matchups. *You* mentioned Flash as a way to disregard the highest level of play as being 'outliers': If you treat Flash as an outlier (as you should), Zergs have been demolishing the highest tier of competitive BW for quite awhile now. Certainly since 2012 to a very high frequency. Balance is when the games at the highest stakes don't look like a theatrical beatdown between players that have very similar skill levels in their other matchups This happens in BW, every year, in every matchup. Half the finals in BW history (OSL, MSL, ASL) are stomps, encompassing all matchups. Infact, in ASL's history, there's only been a single finals series that went to the last game. But there are enormous amounts of stomps in ZvPs, two of them this season already. The only stomp in PvZ I remember from the past 10 years was JangBi 3-0 Soo in Jin Air Osl 2011. (Considering premier tournaments only). in ASL S7 we had rain 3-0 sacsri and 3-1 action, ASL S5 mini 3-0 larva and rain 3-1 hero to pick a few ro4 examples. The Mini - Larva series is the only real counter-example here. Protoss clearly out-strategized the Zerg in that series. The others were hard-fought, no matter the score. Rain - Sacsri is a lame example. Sacsri is clearly an inferior Zerg all around.
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Has Best always been this bad at PvZ or was today unusually bad?
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On October 28 2020 01:57 Geographer wrote:
Has Best always been this bad at PvZ or was today unusually bad?
46% during the original SC e-sport era.
I imagine it's not very different now. Probably better.
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On October 28 2020 01:29 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote:
BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it.
But a balance patch means you have to patch two of the races in order to not completely break the other MU's:
* Buff Protoss somehow so they're not legless chicken to Zerg anymore in the early-mid game - need to adjust PvT as well in that case though or somehow avoid breaking that MU.
* Take away some of Zerg's cheap/cost-effectiveness possibilities - need to seriously address the ZvT matchup too in that case though.
I think the process above would be simpler if you'd try to balance it against a set of maps (CB/FS/Sylphid etc), basically maps that have been proven to be as balanced as possible in the modern era of BW, as opposed to worying with what might happen on Plasma and Sparkle or any other non-sense like that. funny when snow has actually said pvz is easier than pvt and soma said zvp is harder than zvt. PvZ has never been in such good state. I like how you judge based on a series. Zero is much more skilled than best and has always been the kryptonite for best. ZvP has gotten so much harder.
Lmao. I'm not just looking at what snow said or what amateurs do, I'm looking at asl these past few seasons and looking at the protosses that get their ass kicked in at the highest level. Snow got stomped by soma. Snow, arguably the best toss in the world right now. Best also got stomped even though his Korean elo ranking was 2nd, only behind flash. Until I see some protoss that can stand up to asl zergs consistently, I'm not going to fool myself into thinking that zergs have a hard time against toss.
However, I'm not asking for a balance patch at all. I'm just waiting for a hero protoss that can beat these zergs. Can't really see any right now.
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On October 28 2020 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
edit: I'm just play Devil's advocate here. I'm not entirely against a PTR patch where something like HT health was looked at like Artosis brought up in the cast. Imagine adding 20 hp to a HT or increasing the speed by even 1 unit. I think it'd be really interesting to see how that changes things. Starting Shield Battery energy increase would also be a cool thing to look at.
What PvZ really needs is Scouts starting with both sight & speed upgrades 
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On October 28 2020 01:43 Garrl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2020 01:36 kaspa84 wrote:On October 28 2020 00:42 Garrl wrote:On October 28 2020 00:29 oxKnu wrote:On October 27 2020 23:52 Garrl wrote:On October 27 2020 23:31 oxKnu wrote:On October 27 2020 23:12 Garrl wrote:On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote:
BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it. [citation needed] on "everybody knows it," because I sure don't, and I sure don't trust that Blizzard could deliver a good balance patch. We've seen periods of BW where one matchup has been in a hole for ages. It's what creates innovation - the original Bisu build was invented as a reaction to zergs dominating zvp, which lead to zergs reacting with their own innovations, and so on. Doesn't help that ASL keep throwing in these janky old maps in their map pool which don't hold up to modern balance at all. Your post reads like a TL blog-post, in theory quite appealing and with beautiful words embedded in all paragraphs but fails miserably to align with reality. If you treat Flash as an outlier (as you should), Zergs have been demolishing the highest tier of competitive BW for quite awhile now. Certainly since 2012 to a very high frequency. This includes spon-games which are the most important measure of BW balance in the last 3-4 years. lol, because peak TL posting isn't when you call for balance patches in an LR thread? You just... can't discount the top player of the game when talking about balance, because he represents the current highest level and - in a game being actively patched - the balance should be pivoting around the best players. If you were in charge of balance, apparently you would also be buffing Flash because the median terran player isn't doing well. In all ASL ro4s, not discounting Flash because to do so is terrible logic and you'd have to remove all other #1 players of each race, you get 13 terran players, 12 protoss, 14 zerg and 1 random. That is balanced by any means of testing. Plenty of logical fallacies in this post as well. We were mainly talking about high-level PvZ, why is Flash important in this discussion? Removing him from the discussion or not does not affect the hypothesis that PvZ is largely imbalanced (post Bisu-era developments included) Balance is when the games at the highest stakes don't look like a theatrical beatdown between players that have very similar skill levels in their other matchups. *You* mentioned Flash as a way to disregard the highest level of play as being 'outliers': If you treat Flash as an outlier (as you should), Zergs have been demolishing the highest tier of competitive BW for quite awhile now. Certainly since 2012 to a very high frequency. Balance is when the games at the highest stakes don't look like a theatrical beatdown between players that have very similar skill levels in their other matchups This happens in BW, every year, in every matchup. Half the finals in BW history (OSL, MSL, ASL) are stomps, encompassing all matchups. Infact, in ASL's history, there's only been a single finals series that went to the last game. But there are enormous amounts of stomps in ZvPs, two of them this season already. The only stomp in PvZ I remember from the past 10 years was JangBi 3-0 Soo in Jin Air Osl 2011. (Considering premier tournaments only). in ASL S7 we had rain 3-0 sacsri and 3-1 action, ASL S5 mini 3-0 larva and rain 3-1 hero to pick a few ro4 examples.
I was considering as stomps only 3-0 or 4-0, so that's two more P stomps. Still how many Z stomps there were in these 10 years? I guess it is much much more.
Edit: I researched Liquipedia for series in premier tournaments over last 10 years (both of last two MSLs and OSLs, last three SSLs, 4 KSLs, Kingdom and Vant SLs, and 10 ASLs) and by my criteria there where 5 P stomps by Ps against Z's (two extra by Bus) and 8 Z stomps vs Ps. Far more balanced than I expected.
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On October 28 2020 02:02 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2020 01:29 Shinokuki wrote:On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote:
BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it.
But a balance patch means you have to patch two of the races in order to not completely break the other MU's:
* Buff Protoss somehow so they're not legless chicken to Zerg anymore in the early-mid game - need to adjust PvT as well in that case though or somehow avoid breaking that MU.
* Take away some of Zerg's cheap/cost-effectiveness possibilities - need to seriously address the ZvT matchup too in that case though.
I think the process above would be simpler if you'd try to balance it against a set of maps (CB/FS/Sylphid etc), basically maps that have been proven to be as balanced as possible in the modern era of BW, as opposed to worying with what might happen on Plasma and Sparkle or any other non-sense like that. funny when snow has actually said pvz is easier than pvt and soma said zvp is harder than zvt. PvZ has never been in such good state. I like how you judge based on a series. Zero is much more skilled than best and has always been the kryptonite for best. ZvP has gotten so much harder. Lmao. I'm not just looking at what snow said or what amateurs do, I'm looking at asl these past few seasons and looking at the protosses that get their ass kicked in at the highest level. Snow got stomped by soma. Snow, arguably the best toss in the world right now. Best also got stomped even though his Korean elo ranking was 2nd, only behind flash. Until I see some protoss that can stand up to asl zergs consistently, I'm not going to fool myself into thinking that zergs have a hard time against toss. However, I'm not asking for a balance patch at all. I'm just waiting for a hero protoss that can beat these zergs. Can't really see any right now.
I admit that zerg is a STRONG RACE to play in a series vs protoss. Zerg can pull out lot of strategy and play unconventionally and throw off protoss. What I do not like is that people think zvp is imba. It's not imba, not even close. Soma said if games go straight up standard like 2 forge toss vs 5 hat lair zerg, protoss is actually FAVORED. You have to kill toss from early or severely handicap him in mid game.
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On October 28 2020 02:20 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2020 02:02 Golgotha wrote:On October 28 2020 01:29 Shinokuki wrote:On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote:
BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it.
But a balance patch means you have to patch two of the races in order to not completely break the other MU's:
* Buff Protoss somehow so they're not legless chicken to Zerg anymore in the early-mid game - need to adjust PvT as well in that case though or somehow avoid breaking that MU.
* Take away some of Zerg's cheap/cost-effectiveness possibilities - need to seriously address the ZvT matchup too in that case though.
I think the process above would be simpler if you'd try to balance it against a set of maps (CB/FS/Sylphid etc), basically maps that have been proven to be as balanced as possible in the modern era of BW, as opposed to worying with what might happen on Plasma and Sparkle or any other non-sense like that. funny when snow has actually said pvz is easier than pvt and soma said zvp is harder than zvt. PvZ has never been in such good state. I like how you judge based on a series. Zero is much more skilled than best and has always been the kryptonite for best. ZvP has gotten so much harder. Lmao. I'm not just looking at what snow said or what amateurs do, I'm looking at asl these past few seasons and looking at the protosses that get their ass kicked in at the highest level. Snow got stomped by soma. Snow, arguably the best toss in the world right now. Best also got stomped even though his Korean elo ranking was 2nd, only behind flash. Until I see some protoss that can stand up to asl zergs consistently, I'm not going to fool myself into thinking that zergs have a hard time against toss. However, I'm not asking for a balance patch at all. I'm just waiting for a hero protoss that can beat these zergs. Can't really see any right now. I admit that zerg is a STRONG RACE to play in a series vs protoss. Zerg can pull out lot of strategy and play unconventionally and throw off protoss. What I do not like is that people think zvp is imba. It's not imba, not even close. Soma said if games go straight up standard like 2 forge toss vs 5 hat lair zerg, protoss is actually FAVORED. You have to kill toss from early or severely handicap him in mid game.
Instead of regurgitating what some pro said on stream at some point to diminish the advantage his race has in a certain match-up I recommend you actually watch some PvZ series in KSL and ASL from recent years to understand a bit more the underlying theme of the topic.
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