EPTEdit: Not saying map balance is easy, just find it funny that the map makers are lost now that Flash is playing random, before they could just lean on how ridiculously better than everyone else he is and make anti-Terran maps for PvZs to skirmish on, now they're lost at sea. :D
[ASL10] Ro8 Day 4 - Page 7
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jjmmtt
Australia995 Posts
Edit: Not saying map balance is easy, just find it funny that the map makers are lost now that Flash is playing random, before they could just lean on how ridiculously better than everyone else he is and make anti-Terran maps for PvZs to skirmish on, now they're lost at sea. :D | ||
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superjoppe
Sweden3694 Posts
PvZ seems way too hard. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia484 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
PvZ is a shit show and only Bisu's harass style is what I have faith in. Otherwise most Ps just let the Zerg get a nice fat economy and die to hydra/lurker. Flash might have an answer though...I honestly have more faith in Flash than any other current protoss. Seeing how he fucked up snow with his storms and reaver harass, makes me think that he has a good chance if he can maintain map presence and go for heavy harass play in a PvZ. Sitting back and taking a third isn't going to do shit when the zerg is already on his 4th and now has a lurker field that shuts down half the damn map. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
On October 27 2020 21:49 BisuDagger wrote: A few changes I'd like to see: * Both the main and the natural on high ground * Areas controlled in the center on low ground * Third on high ground with a single ramp I just want maps that make the early to mid game defense manageable and a third that is obtainable. I don't care about PvT imbalances lol. But this will cause Zerg to beat Terran because 3rd and 4th gas become so easy to take. And looking back, Zerg has been for years most dominant race in sponrankings so dunno. Maybe its just time to accept that players like Effort, Zero, Soma etc. have just mastered the game so they not only dominate zvp but have overcome zvt. At least in this ASL it seems the case. I agree on maps as entertaiment value is lost in maps like Plasma and Horizon blaa blaa where depending spawns T and P just cannot do anything to Z creating onesided stomps... | ||
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oxKnu
1262 Posts
But a balance patch means you have to patch two of the races in order to not completely break the other MU's: * Buff Protoss somehow so they're not legless chicken to Zerg anymore in the early-mid game - need to adjust PvT as well in that case though or somehow avoid breaking that MU. * Take away some of Zerg's cheap/cost-effectiveness possibilities - need to seriously address the ZvT matchup too in that case though. I think the process above would be simpler if you'd try to balance it against a set of maps (CB/FS/Sylphid etc), basically maps that have been proven to be as balanced as possible in the modern era of BW, as opposed to worying with what might happen on Plasma and Sparkle or any other non-sense like that. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19371 Posts
On October 27 2020 22:34 whaski wrote: But this will cause Zerg to beat Terran because 3rd and 4th gas become so easy to take. And looking back, Zerg has been for years most dominant race in sponrankings so dunno. Maybe its just time to accept that players like Effort, Zero, Soma etc. have just mastered the game so they not only dominate zvp but have overcome zvt. At least in this ASL it seems the case. I agree on maps as entertaiment value is lost in maps like Plasma and Horizon blaa blaa where depending spawns T and P just cannot do anything to Z creating onesided stomps... Forgot to add I don't care about ZvT imbalance either in my previous statement lol. :D I would be happy for ASL to have a throwback for season 11 where they use the most balanced maps available instead of inviting in new maps, even if this means the return of Circuit Breaker and Electric Circuit. | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4107 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1979 Posts
On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote: BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it. [citation needed] on "everybody knows it," because I sure don't, and I sure don't trust that Blizzard could deliver a good balance patch. We've seen periods of BW where one matchup has been in a hole for ages. It's what creates innovation - the original Bisu build was invented as a reaction to zergs dominating zvp, which lead to zergs reacting with their own innovations, and so on. Doesn't help that ASL keep throwing in these janky old maps in their map pool which don't hold up to modern balance at all. | ||
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oxKnu
1262 Posts
On October 27 2020 23:12 Garrl wrote: [citation needed] on "everybody knows it," because I sure don't, and I sure don't trust that Blizzard could deliver a good balance patch. We've seen periods of BW where one matchup has been in a hole for ages. It's what creates innovation - the original Bisu build was invented as a reaction to zergs dominating zvp, which lead to zergs reacting with their own innovations, and so on. Doesn't help that ASL keep throwing in these janky old maps in their map pool which don't hold up to modern balance at all. Your post reads like a TL blog-post, in theory quite appealing and with beautiful words embedded in all paragraphs but fails miserably to align with reality. If you treat Flash as an outlier (as you should), Zergs have been demolishing the highest tier of competitive BW for quite awhile now. Certainly since 2012 to a very high frequency. This includes spon-games which are the most important measure of BW balance in the last 3-4 years. | ||
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Garrl
Scotland1979 Posts
On October 27 2020 23:31 oxKnu wrote: Your post reads like a TL blog-post, in theory quite appealing and with beautiful words embedded in all paragraphs but fails miserably to align with reality. If you treat Flash as an outlier (as you should), Zergs have been demolishing the highest tier of competitive BW for quite awhile now. Certainly since 2012 to a very high frequency. This includes spon-games which are the most important measure of BW balance in the last 3-4 years. lol, because peak TL posting isn't when you call for balance patches in an LR thread? You just... can't discount the top player of the game when talking about balance, because he represents the current highest level and - in a game being actively patched - the balance should be pivoting around the best players. If you were in charge of balance, apparently you would also be buffing Flash because the median terran player isn't doing well. In all ASL ro4s, not discounting Flash because to do so is terrible logic and you'd have to remove all other #1 players of each race, you get 13 terran players, 12 protoss, 14 zerg and 1 random. That is balanced by any means of testing. | ||
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PorkSoda
170 Posts
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oxKnu
1262 Posts
On October 27 2020 23:52 Garrl wrote: lol, because peak TL posting isn't when you call for balance patches in an LR thread? You just... can't discount the top player of the game when talking about balance, because he represents the current highest level and - in a game being actively patched - the balance should be pivoting around the best players. If you were in charge of balance, apparently you would also be buffing Flash because the median terran player isn't doing well. In all ASL ro4s, not discounting Flash because to do so is terrible logic and you'd have to remove all other #1 players of each race, you get 13 terran players, 12 protoss, 14 zerg and 1 random. That is balanced by any means of testing. Plenty of logical fallacies in this post as well. We were mainly talking about high-level PvZ, why is Flash important in this discussion? Removing him from the discussion or not does not affect the hypothesis that PvZ is largely imbalanced (post Bisu-era developments included) Balance is when the games at the highest stakes don't look like a theatrical beatdown between players that have very similar skill levels in their other matchups. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19371 Posts
On October 28 2020 00:29 oxKnu wrote: Plenty of logical fallacies in this post as well. We were mainly talking about high-level PvZ, why is Flash important in this discussion? Removing him from the discussion or not does not affect the hypothesis that PvZ is largely imbalanced (post Bisu-era developments included) Balance is when the games at the highest stakes don't look like a theatrical beatdown between players that have very similar skill levels in their other matchups. At the Top Korean level it can certainly feel like a patch is needed to fix things, but when you look at the BSL the racial distribution is perfect and you don't feel the heavy burden of racial imbalance. On a foreign level, the game in its current state is balanced really well and even the maps aren't that bad balance wise.  Bombastic StarLeague 10 | ||
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Garrl
Scotland1979 Posts
On October 28 2020 00:29 oxKnu wrote: Plenty of logical fallacies in this post as well. We were mainly talking about high-level PvZ, why is Flash important in this discussion? Removing him from the discussion or not does not affect the hypothesis that PvZ is largely imbalanced (post Bisu-era developments included) Balance is when the games at the highest stakes don't look like a theatrical beatdown between players that have very similar skill levels in their other matchups. *You* mentioned Flash as a way to disregard the highest level of play as being 'outliers': If you treat Flash as an outlier (as you should), Zergs have been demolishing the highest tier of competitive BW for quite awhile now. Certainly since 2012 to a very high frequency. Balance is when the games at the highest stakes don't look like a theatrical beatdown between players that have very similar skill levels in their other matchups This happens in BW, every year, in every matchup. Half the finals in BW history (OSL, MSL, ASL) are stomps, encompassing all matchups. Infact, in ASL's history, there's only been a single finals series that went to the last game. | ||
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oxKnu
1262 Posts
On October 28 2020 00:35 BisuDagger wrote: At the Top Korean level it can certainly feel like a patch is needed to fix things, but when you look at the BSL the racial distribution is perfect and you don't feel the heavy burden of racial imbalance. On a foreign level, the game in its current state is balanced really well and even the maps aren't that bad balance wise. https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Bombastic_StarLeague_10 Foreigner-level is several tiers below the level we are talking about here though. It's not really a factor. It's worth noting that having full-time gamers that have dedicated 10+ years of their life into perfecting their game is the best indicator of balance we can have and without a doubt it's been pointing towards a heavily imbalanced MU (PvZ). | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19371 Posts
On October 28 2020 00:57 oxKnu wrote: Foreigner-level is several tiers below the level we are talking about here though. It's not really a factor. It's worth noting that having full-time gamers that have dedicated 10+ years of their life into perfecting their game is the best indicator of balance we can have and without a doubt it's been pointing towards a heavily imbalanced MU (PvZ). It's a HUGE factor when considering a patch for the game. When a game is balanced for everyone, but the absolute highest tier of players, it doesn't make sense to patch the game. edit: I'm just play Devil's advocate here. I'm not entirely against a PTR patch where something like HT health was looked at like Artosis brought up in the cast. Imagine adding 20 hp to a HT or increasing the speed by even 1 unit. I think it'd be really interesting to see how that changes things. Starting Shield Battery energy increase would also be a cool thing to look at. | ||
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Geographer
United States185 Posts
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote: BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it. But a balance patch means you have to patch two of the races in order to not completely break the other MU's: * Buff Protoss somehow so they're not legless chicken to Zerg anymore in the early-mid game - need to adjust PvT as well in that case though or somehow avoid breaking that MU. * Take away some of Zerg's cheap/cost-effectiveness possibilities - need to seriously address the ZvT matchup too in that case though. I think the process above would be simpler if you'd try to balance it against a set of maps (CB/FS/Sylphid etc), basically maps that have been proven to be as balanced as possible in the modern era of BW, as opposed to worying with what might happen on Plasma and Sparkle or any other non-sense like that. everybody who is around some time knows this statement is just wrong Balance does not come automatically within the races. The Maps are the KEY factor. And it is very hard to have good and balanced maps for every match up. There are NO balance issuses in terms of the races. The Maps are the deciding factor and that is that. | ||
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