[ASL10] Ro8 Day 4

On October 27 2020 13:56 t2azor wrote:
Prediction??

On October 27 2020 17:16 Alejandrisha wrote:

let's be honest best is going to get smashed to pieces. i don't like this but it's kinda written on the wall. i don't think snow has even recovered from his somaburn

On October 27 2020 12:00 Kaolla wrote:
Gogogo Zero, let's kick P out of the tourney and ZvZ to double ASL champ.

On October 27 2020 17:53 Alejandrisha wrote:

how was soma vs snow more lopsided than this? snow is supposed to be THE pvz and he couldn't hold a candle to soma. best is not exactly known for his pvz. as much as i want best to win, i think this will be another 70 minute asl

On October 27 2020 17:53 Alejandrisha wrote:

how was soma vs snow more lopsided than this? snow is supposed to be THE pvz and he couldn't hold a candle to soma. best is not exactly known for his pvz. as much as i want best to win, i think this will be another 70 minute asl

On October 27 2020 19:37 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
the ONLY conclusion for 2 late stargate after citadel and then NOT building sairs i can up with is .. some kind of.. "precaution" vs mutalisks BUT I do not think u can even build them fast enough once u see mutas..


So Im a bit confused how Im the only one really scratching his head here.. other talking about contain.. bad cannon rush..

he built 2 stargates and didnt build corsairs.. This is honestly SO WEIRD and bad for a pro that I dont even know what to think and even .. collusion comes to mind at that point.

Can some1 explain to me what happened there. I _really_ dont get it.

On October 27 2020 19:46 Cush wrote:
We have yet to see a Plasma match get anywhere close to the late game. Usually has one player be greedy with a fast expo while the other rushes, and the person who rushes wins most of the time.

On October 27 2020 19:46 Cush wrote:
We have yet to see a Plasma match get anywhere close to the late game. Usually has one player be greedy with a fast expo while the other rushes, and the person who rushes wins most of the time.

On October 27 2020 19:48 M3t4PhYzX wrote:

KCM Race Wars and Ultimate Battle's Plasma games are worth watching. Almost always some interesting games and long macro ones, too.

On October 27 2020 19:37 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
the ONLY conclusion for 2 late stargate after citadel and then NOT building sairs i can up with is .. some kind of.. "precaution" vs mutalisks BUT I do not think u can even build them fast enough once u see mutas..


So Im a bit confused how Im the only one really scratching his head here.. other talking about contain.. bad cannon rush..

he built 2 stargates and didnt build corsairs.. This is honestly SO WEIRD and bad for a pro that I dont even know what to think and even .. collusion comes to mind at that point.

Can some1 explain to me what happened there. I _really_ dont get it.

On October 27 2020 19:37 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
the ONLY conclusion for 2 late stargate after citadel and then NOT building sairs i can up with is .. some kind of.. "precaution" vs mutalisks BUT I do not think u can even build them fast enough once u see mutas..


So Im a bit confused how Im the only one really scratching his head here.. other talking about contain.. bad cannon rush..

he built 2 stargates and didnt build corsairs.. This is honestly SO WEIRD and bad for a pro that I dont even know what to think and even .. collusion comes to mind at that point.

Can some1 explain to me what happened there. I _really_ dont get it.

On October 27 2020 19:52 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
best had 1k minerals 500 gas in the mid early game.. I meant what precisely is this? Is he throwing these games? Why is he building one cannon when he scouts the zerg composition? If he build 2 or 3 he is completely fine.

I mean if only one of these two games happened so far Id be okay but Im really really disturbed by what he is doing thus far. That 2 stargate build 1 corsair build after citadelt before gate was the weridest shit Ive ever seen a pro do.

That is legit completely unreal to me..

On October 27 2020 20:09 iggyfisk wrote:
I missed a few minutes here and there, did a single thing go right for Best today? Any time where he gained some kind of advantage? Like maybe he killed a drone with a zealot...?

On October 27 2020 20:11 oxKnu wrote:
Which series was more depressing: this or Snow vs Soma?

On October 27 2020 20:14 Maks wrote:
We need balance patch ASAP. PvZ is literally unplayable.

On October 27 2020 20:14 Maks wrote:
We need balance patch ASAP. PvZ is literally unplayable.

On October 27 2020 20:14 Maks wrote:
We need balance patch ASAP. PvZ is literally unplayable.

On October 27 2020 20:20 NoS-Craig wrote:


I don't know man. Pretty tough call damn.

On October 27 2020 20:11 oxKnu wrote:
Which series was more depressing: this or Snow vs Soma?

On October 27 2020 20:18 Garrl wrote:


every time a protoss player loses in pvz. Queen is the #1 z, the maps suck for protoss, and best isn't anywhere near Queen's level.

Tuning in a bit late, complaining to myself that ASL does not add filler as I see only 1H30 youtube video, game 1 starting 25 minutes in, I smell the 3 0, start watching , utterly failed canon rush, the whole series being spoiled in like 2 minutes.

Add fillers asl please.

On October 27 2020 21:10 BisuDagger wrote:

If you go to SC2links.com it hides the game length for you. It usually adds the vod within the same day.

Regarding the games, obviously the Zergs who best protoss were better players, but these maps really sucked the fun out of a boX series.

On October 27 2020 21:34 Motivate wrote:
Far out, protosses really need to practice more than just PvT... flash doesnt even play terran anymore

On October 27 2020 20:35 Kaal wrote:


Cuz then you die to mutas.

Edit: To expand, you have to go HT, because if you don't have storm you will get shitstomped by zerg pressing SH.

If you try to just go reavers, zerg can freely just build muta or scourge to just scourge down your shuttle and then your reaver is going to do jack all. You can't go sair/HT/Reaver you just dont have the gas.

Hopefully 973 gets nerfed in the next map pool, I have faith in Gyuyul to fix it. He did try with this pool but it was just not the way.

There IS an up and coming 6 gate with an 8 gate variant that does well but it's SO tight and SO micro intenstive, and Zerg is so flexible in 973 that it might not end up working, we'll see.

On October 27 2020 21:49 BisuDagger wrote:

A few changes I'd like to see:

* Both the main and the natural on high ground
* Areas controlled in the center on low ground
* Third on high ground with a single ramp

I just want maps that make the early to mid game defense manageable and a third that is obtainable. I don't care about PvT imbalances lol.

On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote:
BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it.

On October 27 2020 23:12 Garrl wrote:


[citation needed] on "everybody knows it," because I sure don't, and I sure don't trust that Blizzard could deliver a good balance patch. We've seen periods of BW where one matchup has been in a hole for ages. It's what creates innovation - the original Bisu build was invented as a reaction to zergs dominating zvp, which lead to zergs reacting with their own innovations, and so on.

Doesn't help that ASL keep throwing in these janky old maps in their map pool which don't hold up to modern balance at all.

On October 27 2020 23:31 oxKnu wrote:


Your post reads like a TL blog-post, in theory quite appealing and with beautiful words embedded in all paragraphs but fails miserably to align with reality.

If you treat Flash as an outlier (as you should), Zergs have been demolishing the highest tier of competitive BW for quite awhile now. Certainly since 2012 to a very high frequency.

This includes spon-games which are the most important measure of BW balance in the last 3-4 years.

On October 27 2020 23:52 Garrl wrote:


lol, because peak TL posting isn't when you call for balance patches in an LR thread?

You just... can't discount the top player of the game when talking about balance, because he represents the current highest level and - in a game being actively patched - the balance should be pivoting around the best players. If you were in charge of balance, apparently you would also be buffing Flash because the median terran player isn't doing well.

In all ASL ro4s, not discounting Flash because to do so is terrible logic and you'd have to remove all other #1 players of each race, you get 13 terran players, 12 protoss, 14 zerg and 1 random. That is balanced by any means of testing.

On October 28 2020 00:29 oxKnu wrote:


Plenty of logical fallacies in this post as well. We were mainly talking about high-level PvZ, why is Flash important in this discussion? Removing him from the discussion or not does not affect the hypothesis that PvZ is largely imbalanced (post Bisu-era developments included)

Balance is when the games at the highest stakes don't look like a theatrical beatdown between players that have very similar skill levels in their other matchups.

If you treat Flash as an outlier (as you should), Zergs have been demolishing the highest tier of competitive BW for quite awhile now. Certainly since 2012 to a very high frequency.

Balance is when the games at the highest stakes don't look like a theatrical beatdown between players that have very similar skill levels in their other matchups

On October 28 2020 00:35 BisuDagger wrote:

At the Top Korean level it can certainly feel like a patch is needed to fix things, but when you look at the BSL the racial distribution is perfect and you don't feel the heavy burden of racial imbalance. On a foreign level, the game in its current state is balanced really well and even the maps aren't that bad balance wise.

https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Bombastic_StarLeague_10

On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote:
BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it.

But a balance patch means you have to patch two of the races in order to not completely break the other MU's:

* Buff Protoss somehow so they're not legless chicken to Zerg anymore in the early-mid game - need to adjust PvT as well in that case though or somehow avoid breaking that MU.
* Take away some of Zerg's cheap/cost-effectiveness possibilities - need to seriously address the ZvT matchup too in that case though.

I think the process above would be simpler if you'd try to balance it against a set of maps (CB/FS/Sylphid etc), basically maps that have been proven to be as balanced as possible in the modern era of BW, as opposed to worying with what might happen on Plasma and Sparkle or any other non-sense like that.

On October 28 2020 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:


It's a HUGE factor when considering a patch for the game. When a game is balanced for everyone, but the absolute highest tier of players, it doesn't make sense to patch the game.

edit: I'm just play Devil's advocate here. I'm not entirely against a PTR patch where something like HT health was looked at like Artosis brought up in the cast. Imagine adding 20 hp to a HT or increasing the speed by even 1 unit. I think it'd be really interesting to see how that changes things. Starting Shield Battery energy increase would also be a cool thing to look at.

On October 27 2020 20:35 Kaal wrote:


Cuz then you die to mutas.

Edit: To expand, you have to go HT, because if you don't have storm you will get shitstomped by zerg pressing SH.

If you try to just go reavers, zerg can freely just build muta or scourge to just scourge down your shuttle and then your reaver is going to do jack all. You can't go sair/HT/Reaver you just dont have the gas.

Hopefully 973 gets nerfed in the next map pool, I have faith in Gyuyul to fix it. He did try with this pool but it was just not the way.

There IS an up and coming 6 gate with an 8 gate variant that does well but it's SO tight and SO micro intenstive, and Zerg is so flexible in 973 that it might not end up working, we'll see.

On October 27 2020 22:19 Golgotha wrote:
spam hydralisks and win is basically what Z has to do. get a couple lurkers or a ton of them if you really want to beat down on the toss. Toss has to play like a god to keep Z from growing too fast. And when Z gets to hive, cracklings just rip apart everything unless you have this perfect army and land all your storms. Then we have to face defilers with plague that decimate our armies.

PvZ is a shit show and only Bisu's harass style is what I have faith in. Otherwise most Ps just let the Zerg get a nice fat economy and die to hydra/lurker. Flash might have an answer though...I honestly have more faith in Flash than any other current protoss. Seeing how he fucked up snow with his storms and reaver harass, makes me think that he has a good chance if he can maintain map presence and go for heavy harass play in a PvZ. Sitting back and taking a third isn't going to do shit when the zerg is already on his 4th and now has a lurker field that shuts down half the damn map.

On October 27 2020 22:48 oxKnu wrote:
BW needs a balance patch, everybody knows it.

But a balance patch means you have to patch two of the races in order to not completely break the other MU's:

* Buff Protoss somehow so they're not legless chicken to Zerg anymore in the early-mid game - need to adjust PvT as well in that case though or somehow avoid breaking that MU.
* Take away some of Zerg's cheap/cost-effectiveness possibilities - need to seriously address the ZvT matchup too in that case though.

I think the process above would be simpler if you'd try to balance it against a set of maps (CB/FS/Sylphid etc), basically maps that have been proven to be as balanced as possible in the modern era of BW, as opposed to worying with what might happen on Plasma and Sparkle or any other non-sense like that.

On October 28 2020 01:29 Shinokuki wrote:


Zero is much more skilled than best and has always been the kryptonite for best..

On October 28 2020 01:31 oxKnu wrote:


Best has a winning record vs Zero in spon-games (30+ games) this season.

Thanks for trying.

On October 28 2020 00:42 Garrl wrote:


*You* mentioned Flash as a way to disregard the highest level of play as being 'outliers':





This happens in BW, every year, in every matchup. Half the finals in BW history (OSL, MSL, ASL) are stomps, encompassing all matchups. Infact, in ASL's history, there's only been a single finals series that went to the last game.

On October 28 2020 01:36 kaspa84 wrote:


But there are enormous amounts of stomps in ZvPs, two of them this season already. The only stomp in PvZ I remember from the past 10 years was JangBi 3-0 Soo in Jin Air Osl 2011. (Considering premier tournaments only).

On October 28 2020 01:34 Garrl wrote:


so that would mean... pvz is alright?

because best has a winning record?

and he just had a bad day?

...

you just killed your own argument, congrats.

On October 28 2020 01:36 kaspa84 wrote:


But there are enormous amounts of stomps in ZvPs, two of them this season already. The only stomp in PvZ I remember from the past 10 years was JangBi 3-0 Soo in Jin Air Osl 2011. (Considering premier tournaments only).

On October 28 2020 01:43 Garrl wrote:


in ASL S7 we had rain 3-0 sacsri and 3-1 action, ASL S5 mini 3-0 larva and rain 3-1 hero to pick a few ro4 examples.

On October 28 2020 01:46 oxKnu wrote:


The Mini - Larva series is the only real counter-example here. Protoss clearly out-strategized the Zerg in that series.

The others were hard-fought, no matter the score.

Rain - Sacsri is a lame example. Sacsri is clearly an inferior Zerg all around.

On October 28 2020 01:57 Geographer wrote:
Has Best always been this bad at PvZ or was today unusually bad?

On October 28 2020 01:29 Shinokuki wrote:


funny when snow has actually said pvz is easier than pvt and soma said zvp is harder than zvt. PvZ has never been in such good state. I like how you judge based on a series. Zero is much more skilled than best and has always been the kryptonite for best. ZvP has gotten so much harder.

On October 28 2020 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
edit: I'm just play Devil's advocate here. I'm not entirely against a PTR patch where something like HT health was looked at like Artosis brought up in the cast. Imagine adding 20 hp to a HT or increasing the speed by even 1 unit. I think it'd be really interesting to see how that changes things. Starting Shield Battery energy increase would also be a cool thing to look at.

On October 28 2020 01:43 Garrl wrote:


in ASL S7 we had rain 3-0 sacsri and 3-1 action, ASL S5 mini 3-0 larva and rain 3-1 hero to pick a few ro4 examples.

On October 28 2020 02:02 Golgotha wrote:


Lmao. I'm not just looking at what snow said or what amateurs do, I'm looking at asl these past few seasons and looking at the protosses that get their ass kicked in at the highest level. Snow got stomped by soma. Snow, arguably the best toss in the world right now. Best also got stomped even though his Korean elo ranking was 2nd, only behind flash. Until I see some protoss that can stand up to asl zergs consistently, I'm not going to fool myself into thinking that zergs have a hard time against toss.

However, I'm not asking for a balance patch at all. I'm just waiting for a hero protoss that can beat these zergs. Can't really see any right now.

On October 28 2020 02:20 Shinokuki wrote:


I admit that zerg is a STRONG RACE to play in a series vs protoss. Zerg can pull out lot of strategy and play unconventionally and throw off protoss. What I do not like is that people think zvp is imba. It's not imba, not even close. Soma said if games go straight up standard like 2 forge toss vs 5 hat lair zerg, protoss is actually FAVORED. You have to kill toss from early or severely handicap him in mid game.

On October 28 2020 02:20 Shinokuki wrote:


I admit that zerg is a STRONG RACE to play in a series vs protoss. Zerg can pull out lot of strategy and play unconventionally and throw off protoss. What I do not like is that people think zvp is imba. It's not imba, not even close. Soma said if games go straight up standard like 2 forge toss vs 5 hat lair zerg, protoss is actually FAVORED. You have to kill toss from early or severely handicap him in mid game.

On October 28 2020 02:27 Arviel wrote:

With access to plague in the late game I fail to see how the zerg is under any pressure to end the game early. If anything it is the opposite. Plague is incredible vs toss, you have no counter to it. On top of that, the constant threat of drops is oppressive. One control groups of crackling in your base is game ending.

I do not want a balance patch either, but there is not denying that pvz is in a terrible state right now. It feels like protoss have no answer. I am hoping for another bisu-esque revolution in the matchup but I just don't see it happening any time soon.

On October 28 2020 02:22 oxKnu wrote:


Instead of regurgitating what some pro said on stream at some point to diminish the advantage his race has in a certain match-up I recommend you actually watch some PvZ series in KSL and ASL from recent years to understand a bit more the underlying theme of the topic.

On October 28 2020 02:53 Shinokuki wrote:


Once toss brings out archons/reavers it tilts toward toss. Plague is strong but it becomes pretty mute once toss transitions into heavy tech army

On October 28 2020 04:23 Magic Powers wrote:
PvZ is not imbalanced (at most it might be 45/55)

On October 28 2020 05:06 Magic Powers wrote:
That's why I said "at most" and "might be".

On October 28 2020 05:06 Magic Powers wrote:
That's why I said "at most" and "might be".

On October 28 2020 06:52 Sr18 wrote:
Best was completely outplayed by Zero today. Don't see how this series is indicative of whatever balance issue there might be.

On October 28 2020 07:04 oxKnu wrote:


Mmm, it is exactly indicative if balance issues.

When the opposing race can freely A move units into your natural base and have a 70% chance of winning the game - no matter what happens next it is a pretty clear sign that there is no balance whatsoever to be found.

On October 28 2020 08:45 KobraKay wrote:
Just go away with the patch talk. FFS one of the worst things that could happen to the game would be some nonesense noob coming and convincing people that a patch is needed, and then turn the nonesense into a bandwagon that dumb blizzard would feel the need to cater to.

This and last season is a product of maps. maps have a significant impact on things. A few seasons ago maps were freaking P favoured so you had Flash and a bunch of Ps in the semis and zergs were sad. Now you have Flash and a bunch of zergs. It happens when the maps are designed to favour such a thing.

It is not the game, its deliberate decisions to have maps made in a certain way.

On October 28 2020 01:34 Garrl wrote:


so that would mean... pvz is alright?

because best has a winning record?

and he just had a bad day?

...

you just killed your own argument, congrats.

On October 28 2020 10:25 Starlightsun wrote:
Oh man didn't even know ASL was going on. And Flash playing random! I have a lot of vods to watch.

On October 28 2020 10:48 Magic Powers wrote:


No, it's not faulty. The data so far indicates that BW is balanced, however that doesn't mean it's a perfect balance (perfect balance in BW - be it static through history or temporary - is impossible for a number of reasons). When I say "BW is balanced" that means a few things:
1) It's as balanced as it can be.
2) We don't have knowledge on how to make it more balanced (for that we'd have to know what a more balanced scenario actually looks like, and no one has that information for many reasons).
3) There's no proof that BW is in fact unbalanced to a degree that it requires a patch in order to be more fair at any given skill level.
4) BW is balanced insofar as we have allowed it to be balanced. What this means is the following: the idea of a perfectly balanced game of BW rests on a number of factors like the map design, the meta of the game at each skill level, the discovery of novel mechanics and strategies, the human (in)ability to further push the boundaries, and a bunch of statistical noise.

In other words it's not just impossible to figure out how balanced or imbalanced BW really is, it's also impossible to further balance it without pulling at a number of strings unrelated to the core game design.
However, we do have data on the overall balance of the game, and even though that balance has never been perfect throughout history, it has shifted in various directions throughout history (for many reasons).

There's a reason why many BW players have (rightfully) always protested against any and all measures from Blizzard to interfere with the game design after the earliest patches - sometimes to the point of asking for actual bugs to not be fixed.

On October 28 2020 01:36 kaspa84 wrote:


But there are enormous amounts of stomps in ZvPs, two of them this season already. The only stomp in PvZ I remember from the past 10 years was JangBi 3-0 Soo in Jin Air Osl 2011. (Considering premier tournaments only).

On October 28 2020 10:57 AttackZerg wrote:

Don't miss the round of 32, and round of 16, some of the best games of the year are in those two rounds.
Flash as random was overshadowed early on by some great matches.

Enjoy.

On October 28 2020 10:48 Magic Powers wrote:


No, it's not faulty. The data so far indicates that BW is balanced, however that doesn't mean it's a perfect balance (perfect balance in BW - be it static through history or temporary - is impossible for a number of reasons). When I say "BW is balanced" that means a few things:
1) It's as balanced as it can be.
2) We don't have knowledge on how to make it more balanced (for that we'd have to know what a more balanced scenario actually looks like, and no one has that information for many reasons).
3) There's no proof that BW is in fact unbalanced to a degree that it requires a patch in order to be more fair at any given skill level.
4) BW is balanced insofar as we have allowed it to be balanced. What this means is the following: the idea of a perfectly balanced game of BW rests on a number of factors like the map design, the meta of the game at each skill level, the discovery of novel mechanics and strategies, the human (in)ability to further push the boundaries, and a bunch of statistical noise.

In other words it's not just impossible to figure out how balanced or imbalanced BW really is, it's also impossible to further balance it without pulling at a number of strings unrelated to the core game design.
However, we do have data on the overall balance of the game, and even though that balance has never been perfect throughout history, it has shifted in various directions throughout history (for many reasons).

There's a reason why many BW players have (rightfully) always protested against any and all measures from Blizzard to interfere with the game design after the earliest patches - sometimes to the point of asking for actual bugs to not be fixed.

On October 28 2020 11:51 LpTraxamillion wrote:
Outside of this tournament protoss has been doing very well vs Z. Hardly any hydra busts anymore too.

What you are failing to see is that these results are due to the players more than anything. Zerg has the most S+ tier players of any race.

Terran has Flash followed by Light and had Last.

Protoss really only had Rain (who absolutely crushed everyone before he fell off the map), all the other toss are below the level of winning premier tournaments except maybe Snow. Bisu will probably get back to that level if he isn't there already.

Zerg has Zero, Soulkey, and had Effort - all better at starcraft than any non-rain protoss in the modern era (bisu not there yet and Snow is a tier below). They also have Larva, Soma, Hero, and Action. Also had JD.

Zerg is the most represented among top tier players while Toss is the least. Makes sense that Zerg wins more.

I promise you if Rain was still around Protoss would be doing MUCH better

Zerg has the highest ceiling of any race, yes. But they are also the hardest to play at that level. No human can come close to playing a perfect Zerg game. This is why I believe Zerg does better as the game progresses but the game is still quite balanced

On October 28 2020 15:35 Magic Powers wrote:


1) You can't know if BW could be more balanced than it is right now, and that is for a number of reasons. One is the map design, which is meant to create balance where otherwise there is none. This is why island maps have been virtually abandoned and most semi-island maps also get rejected. Since only certain maps allow for anything close to perfect balance, it is therefore impossible to balance the game itself, as it would shift the balance on some maps in one direction and on other maps in another direction. Another reason is the meta game, which makes it impossible for us to know whether the match results are indicative of balance or not. And there are a few more reasons that I've mentioned in my previous post.
2) As explained in 1) we can't discover that knowledge. The meta of the game and a number of other factors change over time, which makes it impossible for us to know how to balance the game more. We'd essentially always be chasing after our own tail.
And that doesn't even go into the technological challenge of running a sufficient number of useful simulations (which can't account for real life skills), which makes it an absolute impossibility.
3) The chance of messing up the game is greater than improving it. The history of BW shows that it's better to leave it than to alter it, as there have been revolutions even almost twenty years after the initiation of the e-sports scene (think zerg queens radically altering the terran strategy against zerg, forcing terrans to implement more timing attacks and SKTerran builds to win the game outright or gain a greater edge before the almost inevitable mech transition - and that queen transition came as a neccessary counter to terrans discovering the power of a mech transition in the first place. Both of these revolutions had a massive impact on the winrate of both races).

The fact that zerg was usually favored over protoss doesn't mean anything. Terran for example is currently doing quite well - but that's mainly because of Flash and Fantasy. Flash revolutionized both matchup a number of times, and Fantasy revolutionized TvZ, both years after genius players like Boxer, Nada and iloveoov had discovered a number of great tactics and strategies first.
Bisu revolutionized PvZ in a way that no one thought possible. Protoss players had all but resigned to their fate of inferiority until he showed up and proved everybody wrong. This was more than eight years after the initiation of the e-sports scene. It was literally like a great reset that sent shockwaves through the BW scene. He not only dethroned Savior (with ease), but he brought the whole protoss race back into the spotlight.
Rain is another protoss who was basically carrying the race all by himself. If protoss players would study his strategies (which they can, his vods are up on Afreeca) they could learn them and improve them and become the best players in the world.

The comparison to chess doesn't work, as chess has been largely figured out. BW is many times more strategically complex, and it is also very mechanically demanding. BW - unlike chess - is practically unsolvable. In chess they have implemented ways to balance out the inherent disadvantage of the black pieces with ideas like increasing the time on the clock.

On October 28 2020 11:51 LpTraxamillion wrote:
Outside of this tournament protoss has been doing very well vs Z. Hardly any hydra busts anymore too.

What you are failing to see is that these results are due to the players more than anything. Zerg has the most S+ tier players of any race.

Terran has Flash followed by Light and had Last.

Protoss really only had Rain (who absolutely crushed everyone before he fell off the map), all the other toss are below the level of winning premier tournaments except maybe Snow. Bisu will probably get back to that level if he isn't there already.

Zerg has Zero, Soulkey, and had Effort - all better at starcraft than any non-rain protoss in the modern era (bisu not there yet and Snow is a tier below). They also have Larva, Soma, Hero, and Action. Also had JD.

Zerg is the most represented among top tier players while Toss is the least. Makes sense that Zerg wins more.

I promise you if Rain was still around Protoss would be doing MUCH better

Zerg has the highest ceiling of any race, yes. But they are also the hardest to play at that level. No human can come close to playing a perfect Zerg game. This is why I believe Zerg does better as the game progresses but the game is still quite balanced

On October 27 2020 17:53 Alejandrisha wrote:

snow is supposed to be THE pvz

On October 28 2020 18:26 Magic Powers wrote:


Rain quitting BW seems like a very big deal to me considering the pro scene is tiny right now compared to 10 years ago. If he was still around, would people complain about any PvX imbalances at all? Also consider Bisu is probably not yet at his peak performance either.
Zerg of course have lost JD as well. But then again, protoss don't have JangBi.
Do you see the problem? Just one progamer representing a race can make all the difference in balance talks.

On October 28 2020 18:35 Alejandrisha wrote:


best might have a better win % but the eye test says snow>best in pvz. doesn't really matter when both get mowed down 3-0, tho