On October 28 2020 11:51 LpTraxamillion wrote: Outside of this tournament protoss has been doing very well vs Z. Hardly any hydra busts anymore too.
What you are failing to see is that these results are due to the players more than anything. Zerg has the most S+ tier players of any race.
Terran has Flash followed by Light and had Last.
Protoss really only had Rain (who absolutely crushed everyone before he fell off the map), all the other toss are below the level of winning premier tournaments except maybe Snow. Bisu will probably get back to that level if he isn't there already.
Zerg has Zero, Soulkey, and had Effort - all better at starcraft than any non-rain protoss in the modern era (bisu not there yet and Snow is a tier below). They also have Larva, Soma, Hero, and Action. Also had JD.
Zerg is the most represented among top tier players while Toss is the least. Makes sense that Zerg wins more.
I promise you if Rain was still around Protoss would be doing MUCH better
Zerg has the highest ceiling of any race, yes. But they are also the hardest to play at that level. No human can come close to playing a perfect Zerg game. This is why I believe Zerg does better as the game progresses but the game is still quite balanced
Mmm, well have you considered the that is the reason he have so many great Zergs in the first place? A racial imbalance in one of the three match-ups?
Reputation is gained through results and when you are aided favorably 33% of the time of course you will have an edge over the competition and your name is more prestigious in the long run.
I would ask anyone that wants to argue this point to provide any data that disproves a PvZ imbalance without resorting to adjacent facts like 'MAPS!?!' or anecdotal evidence of 1 player having a good tournament 2 years ago or the nostalgia of a meta shift 14 years ago that is mostly irrelevant anymore.
Rain quitting BW seems like a very big deal to me considering the pro scene is tiny right now compared to 10 years ago. If he was still around, would people complain about any PvX imbalances at all? Also consider Bisu is probably not yet at his peak performance either. Zerg of course have lost JD as well. But then again, protoss don't have JangBi. Do you see the problem? Just one progamer representing a race can make all the difference in balance talks.
Rain created his aura recently through winning a ridiculous amount of PvPs in a series of offline tournaments. I don't think his PvZ was ever as prominent as Bisu's or Mini's ASL run a couple of seasons ago.
There are many examples of him botching favorable series. Anyone remember his game vs Larva on Transistor?
On October 27 2020 16:49 M3t4PhYzX wrote: really hope that even if BeSt does not win, he actually shows us some good games
heart says 3-2 BeSt but mind says 3-1 ZerO
let us see what happens.
let's be honest best is going to get smashed to pieces. i don't like this but it's kinda written on the wall. i don't think snow has even recovered from his somaburn
Soma vs Snow was considerably more lopsided than this and I seriously think Soma is THE ZvPer right now. The meta is Zerg-dominated, this goes without question, and I think Zero is the favourite, but this has the potential to be close. Rooting very hard for Best, of course, but if it happens, it will be an upset.
how was soma vs snow more lopsided than this? snow is supposed to be THE pvz and he couldn't hold a candle to soma. best is not exactly known for his pvz. as much as i want best to win, i think this will be another 70 minute asl
Best ASL vZ: 14-10 58.3% (actually slightly higher since this doesn't account for his wins vs Z in his group) Snow ASL vZ: 10-13 43.5% (actually slightly lower since it doesn't account for his Ro8 loss)
For the last 3 months on sponbbang the stats are: Best 54% vZ Snow 50% vZ
best might have a better win % but the eye test says snow>best in pvz. doesn't really matter when both get mowed down 3-0, tho
On October 27 2020 16:49 M3t4PhYzX wrote: really hope that even if BeSt does not win, he actually shows us some good games
heart says 3-2 BeSt but mind says 3-1 ZerO
let us see what happens.
let's be honest best is going to get smashed to pieces. i don't like this but it's kinda written on the wall. i don't think snow has even recovered from his somaburn
Soma vs Snow was considerably more lopsided than this and I seriously think Soma is THE ZvPer right now. The meta is Zerg-dominated, this goes without question, and I think Zero is the favourite, but this has the potential to be close. Rooting very hard for Best, of course, but if it happens, it will be an upset.
how was soma vs snow more lopsided than this? snow is supposed to be THE pvz and he couldn't hold a candle to soma. best is not exactly known for his pvz. as much as i want best to win, i think this will be another 70 minute asl
Best ASL vZ: 14-10 58.3% (actually slightly higher since this doesn't account for his wins vs Z in his group) Snow ASL vZ: 10-13 43.5% (actually slightly lower since it doesn't account for his Ro8 loss)
For the last 3 months on sponbbang the stats are: Best 54% vZ Snow 50% vZ
best might have a better win % but the eye test says snow>best in pvz. doesn't really matter when both get mowed down 3-0, tho
I've always felt it's the opposite. At least Best has tried to innovate on a few maps in KSL by bringing in a DA when all the Zergs were going for a muta-switch.
Snow just plays standard and if he doesn't die in the first 9 minutes of the game then he has a chance. Not a lot has changed for him.
Why are you guys even arguing about this, it's quite evident that Snow and Best play vastly different to one another, and as such they will have different levels of success based on stylistic matchups. Snow has historically always gotten smashed by Soma, so the result of that series was pretty much expected, the betting odds were very close to even for the record, and I for one bet a lot of money on Soma to win. Best does way better vs Soma, but Snow does better against Action and Larva.
Best does better vs Zero than any other protoss, with Bisu being a close second. I fully expected Best vs Zero to go all 5 games, but Best left his skill at home and had a rough day at the office, happens to almost everyone. He has always been a habitual choker/disappointment, so in hindsight it's not that surprising, also having to pick map 2/4 rather than 1/3 hurt his chances of re-gaining any sort of momentum. Once you lose on your best map, and as a result you're going into Benzene with the score at 0-2 you've probably already given up mentally.
On October 28 2020 11:51 LpTraxamillion wrote: Outside of this tournament protoss has been doing very well vs Z. Hardly any hydra busts anymore too.
What you are failing to see is that these results are due to the players more than anything. Zerg has the most S+ tier players of any race.
Terran has Flash followed by Light and had Last.
Protoss really only had Rain (who absolutely crushed everyone before he fell off the map), all the other toss are below the level of winning premier tournaments except maybe Snow. Bisu will probably get back to that level if he isn't there already.
Zerg has Zero, Soulkey, and had Effort - all better at starcraft than any non-rain protoss in the modern era (bisu not there yet and Snow is a tier below). They also have Larva, Soma, Hero, and Action. Also had JD.
Zerg is the most represented among top tier players while Toss is the least. Makes sense that Zerg wins more.
I promise you if Rain was still around Protoss would be doing MUCH better
Zerg has the highest ceiling of any race, yes. But they are also the hardest to play at that level. No human can come close to playing a perfect Zerg game. This is why I believe Zerg does better as the game progresses but the game is still quite balanced
Mmm, well have you considered the that is the reason he have so many great Zergs in the first place? A racial imbalance in one of the three match-ups?
Reputation is gained through results and when you are aided favorably 33% of the time of course you will have an edge over the competition and your name is more prestigious in the long run.
I would ask anyone that wants to argue this point to provide any data that disproves a PvZ imbalance without resorting to adjacent facts like 'MAPS!?!' or anecdotal evidence of 1 player having a good tournament 2 years ago or the nostalgia of a meta shift 14 years ago that is mostly irrelevant anymore.
Rain quitting BW seems like a very big deal to me considering the pro scene is tiny right now compared to 10 years ago. If he was still around, would people complain about any PvX imbalances at all? Also consider Bisu is probably not yet at his peak performance either. Zerg of course have lost JD as well. But then again, protoss don't have JangBi. Do you see the problem? Just one progamer representing a race can make all the difference in balance talks.
Rain created his aura recently through winning a ridiculous amount of PvPs in a series of offline tournaments. I don't think his PvZ was ever as prominent as Bisu's or Mini's ASL run a couple of seasons ago.
There are many examples of him botching favorable series. Anyone remember his game vs Larva on Transistor?
Of course it's always good to be skeptical, praise can be an enemy. But I think Rain had a very good understanding of the game, and that's what matters (after execution). Being able to prioritize. He doesn't mess around, everything has a purpose. I don't know why he quit, he had potential to become the protoss version of Flash.
Someone mentioned increasing HPs for High Templar. I don't see how something like that, or increasing HPs of observers a bit (still killable easily with 1 scourge), could possibly imbalance the game. Win percentage in match ups can be easily tuned in such ways to alleviate the - slight - pvz imbalance.
Interestingly, despite the 2/4 map pick, Best said in the pre-match interview along the lines that he would likely lose if the series go all the way.
That implies a few things: the earlier maps are more favourable, reliance on a limited 'bag of builds', lack of confidence to play long-drawn out macro games over a series.
Best lost the series when his cannon rush failed in G1. You could sense that in his mis-plays thereon (losing a shuttle for no reason, gambling on 2-gates to counter mutas, etc).
No doubt Best played poorly. The question is what was exactly his gameplan, and why he didn't seem confident playing straight against Zero (despite his commendable record). Any thoughts?
On October 28 2020 20:01 RKC wrote: Interestingly, despite the 2/4 map pick, Best said in the pre-match interview along the lines that he would likely lose if the series go all the way.
That implies a few things: the earlier maps are more favourable, reliance on a limited 'bag of builds', lack of confidence to play long-drawn out macro games over a series.
Best lost the series when his cannon rush failed in G1. You could sense that in his mis-plays thereon (losing a shuttle for no reason, gambling on 2-gates to counter mutas, etc).
No doubt Best played poorly. The question is what was exactly his gameplan, and why he didn't seem confident playing straight against Zero (despite his commendable record). Any thoughts?
I guess the answer starts with: When was the last series that he managed to beat a good zerg in a Bo5? Even Bo3.
Aside from the balance talks, let's not forget that neither Best and Snow have any reason to feel confident when going against a high level Z in an offline tournament.
I take it the balance whiner has the memory of a goldfish? Best literally beat Action in the ro16, 2-0. Snow beat Hero in the ro16 1-0.
Both of those were upsets, both of those zerg players had a good winning record against their opponents, and both of them looked bad. Action even made the hilarious mistake of not banning Plasma because he had a "sick cheese" strat lined up; said strat went completely unscouted, killed Best's natural for free, and Action still got absolutely destroyed. Now did people start posting about balance patches and imbalance after those games? Negative, they recognized that the players had bad days, it is what it is.
Well Action might be a bigger choker than Best himself so that kind of sets himself apart in that discussion.
Bo1? Are you serious?
My question was actually genuine, I don't remember any series recently (so no Bo1's) where a competent Protoss has shown a real good strategy/gameplan and execution to take out a good Zerg in recent map-pools.
I do watch Afreeca streams and KCM and it always seems to me (just to the naked eye) that PvZ end up at around a 65-35% winrate in favor of Zerg.
So I just listed a bo3 that happened literally the previous round of the ASL, and your excuse is that Action is a choker? What? Best won 2-0, Best was blind hard-countered by a cheese build on plasma and still won. And good on you for following these things, but I hope you realise the P team literally beat the Zerg team in the semi finals of the KCM right? And then went on to beat the Terran team in the final? Goldfish again?
So since bo1s don't count (I guess it didn't support your dumb argument so now it's void) how about team battles? Best/Light went 6-3 vs Zero/SK, Best went 4-1. Best/Snow beat Action/Soma 6-3.How about Bisu/Rush beating Zero/SK, granted Rush plays T obviously, but Bisu went 2-1 vs Zero and 2-0 vs SK in that one. Best/Snow also had a 4-5 series vs Zero/SK, which while that is a loss, 4-5 is as close as it gets. Oh and guess what, if you combine those 4 "team" battles, do you know what the score on Plasma is in zvp? it's *drumroll* 0-7! Best even beating Zero THREE TIMES, and Action twice.
Can you please stop posting now? You're clearly an uninformed balance whiner that is looking for an excuse as to why you're terrible at the game.
On October 28 2020 22:03 Avi-Love wrote: So I just listed a bo3 that happened literally the previous round of the ASL, and your excuse is that Action is a choker? What? Best won 2-0, Best was blind hard-countered by a cheese build on plasma and still won. And good on you for following these things, but I hope you realise the P team literally beat the Zerg team in the semi finals of the KCM right? And then went on to beat the Terran team in the final? Goldfish again?
This is true, bit it is also first P win in KCM ever.
On October 28 2020 22:03 Avi-Love wrote: So I just listed a bo3 that happened literally the previous round of the ASL, and your excuse is that Action is a choker? What? Best won 2-0, Best was blind hard-countered by a cheese build on plasma and still won. And good on you for following these things, but I hope you realise the P team literally beat the Zerg team in the semi finals of the KCM right? And then went on to beat the Terran team in the final? Goldfish again?
So since bo1s don't count (I guess it didn't support your dumb argument so now it's void) how about team battles? Best/Light went 6-3 vs Zero/SK, Best went 4-1. Best/Snow beat Action/Soma 6-3.How about Bisu/Rush beating Zero/SK, granted Rush plays T obviously, but Bisu went 2-1 vs Zero and 2-0 vs SK in that one. Best/Snow also had a 4-5 series vs Zero/SK, which while that is a loss, 4-5 is as close as it gets. Oh and guess what, if you combine those 4 "team" battles, do you know what the score on Plasma is in zvp? it's *drumroll* 0-7! Best even beating Zero THREE TIMES, and Action twice.
Can you please stop posting now? You're clearly an uninformed balance whiner that is looking for an excuse as to why you're terrible at the game.
Are you obsessed with Plasma somehow? Everybody knows that is a clown map that no one has really figured out and probably never will.
And you're clearly a very hot-headed Zerg player, if anything in this whole discussion.
===
Does anyone have a link to the sponbang site? I can't seem to find it anymore.
Also, is there anyone that has tried crawling the website for statistics? Is Afreeca behind it?
On October 28 2020 22:03 Avi-Love wrote: So I just listed a bo3 that happened literally the previous round of the ASL, and your excuse is that Action is a choker? What? Best won 2-0, Best was blind hard-countered by a cheese build on plasma and still won. And good on you for following these things, but I hope you realise the P team literally beat the Zerg team in the semi finals of the KCM right? And then went on to beat the Terran team in the final? Goldfish again?
So since bo1s don't count (I guess it didn't support your dumb argument so now it's void) how about team battles? Best/Light went 6-3 vs Zero/SK, Best went 4-1. Best/Snow beat Action/Soma 6-3.How about Bisu/Rush beating Zero/SK, granted Rush plays T obviously, but Bisu went 2-1 vs Zero and 2-0 vs SK in that one. Best/Snow also had a 4-5 series vs Zero/SK, which while that is a loss, 4-5 is as close as it gets. Oh and guess what, if you combine those 4 "team" battles, do you know what the score on Plasma is in zvp? it's *drumroll* 0-7! Best even beating Zero THREE TIMES, and Action twice.
Can you please stop posting now? You're clearly an uninformed balance whiner that is looking for an excuse as to why you're terrible at the game.
Are you obsessed with Plasma somehow? Everybody knows that is a clown map that no one has really figured out and probably never will.
And you're clearly a very hot-headed Zerg player, if anything in this whole discussion.
===
Does anyone have a link to the sponbang site? I can't seem to find it anymore.
Also, is there anyone that has tried crawling the website for statistics? Is Afreeca behind it?
On October 28 2020 22:03 Avi-Love wrote: So I just listed a bo3 that happened literally the previous round of the ASL, and your excuse is that Action is a choker? What? Best won 2-0, Best was blind hard-countered by a cheese build on plasma and still won. And good on you for following these things, but I hope you realise the P team literally beat the Zerg team in the semi finals of the KCM right? And then went on to beat the Terran team in the final? Goldfish again?
So since bo1s don't count (I guess it didn't support your dumb argument so now it's void) how about team battles? Best/Light went 6-3 vs Zero/SK, Best went 4-1. Best/Snow beat Action/Soma 6-3.How about Bisu/Rush beating Zero/SK, granted Rush plays T obviously, but Bisu went 2-1 vs Zero and 2-0 vs SK in that one. Best/Snow also had a 4-5 series vs Zero/SK, which while that is a loss, 4-5 is as close as it gets. Oh and guess what, if you combine those 4 "team" battles, do you know what the score on Plasma is in zvp? it's *drumroll* 0-7! Best even beating Zero THREE TIMES, and Action twice.
Can you please stop posting now? You're clearly an uninformed balance whiner that is looking for an excuse as to why you're terrible at the game.
Are you obsessed with Plasma somehow? Everybody knows that is a clown map that no one has really figured out and probably never will.
And you're clearly a very hot-headed Zerg player, if anything in this whole discussion.
===
Does anyone have a link to the sponbang site? I can't seem to find it anymore.
Also, is there anyone that has tried crawling the website for statistics? Is Afreeca behind it?
I dont know if it have been pointed out, but i love the small details in ZerO's game such as his decision to not scout with his initial overlord in Game 3.
In fact, he stopped it over the choke at his main and waited for Best scouting probe to spot it and trick him as the 2nd overlord hatching when he went for pool9.
Not a big move or anything, but could have if Best pulled back his probe back to confirm/try to block the hatchery expansion. On this map in particular, i can even see the benefit of delay your 1st scouting overlord to scout the path with 2 overlords later on. Loving it
EPT
