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Ok guys it really is not that difficult. Everyone (and OxKnu seems to be one of them) who just talks "balance" or match ups without mentioning maps is simply ignorant.
The game is NEITHER balanced nor IMBALANCED. It is always somewhere in between and the deciding factor are the maps.
This is extremely obvious and basically common knowledge since 2002/03.
So dont even start the Balance discussion if you dont have certain maps in mind. Stating Z>P is just dumb because I can present you maps (also used in big leagues) where that is just not true.
So you always have to include a certain map pool when talking about balance issues. PERIOD.
ALSO you can not look at the 0,001% of gamers (the best gamers; back then OSL now ASL) and make your conclusions on that alone. That is also very faulty.
Avi-Loves post are baiscally all u need to read here.
It is simply USELESS to change the game/patch it because the maps are the deciding factor. Giving a HT more Hitpoints or anything to the units/build time really just doesnt change the fact that Benzene is a map built in a way that favors the zerg. And if they brought back DIRE STRAITS in the map pool I dont even know what fixes u need to make to give zerg a chance in PvZ.
How can this be so hard to understand? It is really baffling to me.
So what we can say is "the current ASL mappool favors Zerg over Protoss" probably in fact likely. And that is all.
Everything else is just rubbish talk from noobs/chobos who do not understand how big the influence of maps is on the game.
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On October 28 2020 23:16 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2020 22:03 Avi-Love wrote:
So I just listed a bo3 that happened literally the previous round of the ASL, and your excuse is that Action is a choker? What? Best won 2-0, Best was blind hard-countered by a cheese build on plasma and still won.
And good on you for following these things, but I hope you realise the P team literally beat the Zerg team in the semi finals of the KCM right? And then went on to beat the Terran team in the final? Goldfish again?
So since bo1s don't count (I guess it didn't support your dumb argument so now it's void) how about team battles? Best/Light went 6-3 vs Zero/SK, Best went 4-1. Best/Snow beat Action/Soma 6-3.How about Bisu/Rush beating Zero/SK, granted Rush plays T obviously, but Bisu went 2-1 vs Zero and 2-0 vs SK in that one. Best/Snow also had a 4-5 series vs Zero/SK, which while that is a loss, 4-5 is as close as it gets. Oh and guess what, if you combine those 4 "team" battles, do you know what the score on Plasma is in zvp? it's *drumroll* 0-7! Best even beating Zero THREE TIMES, and Action twice.
Can you please stop posting now? You're clearly an uninformed balance whiner that is looking for an excuse as to why you're terrible at the game. Are you obsessed with Plasma somehow? Everybody knows that is a clown map that no one has really figured out and probably never will. And you're clearly a very hot-headed Zerg player, if anything in this whole discussion. === Does anyone have a link to the sponbang site? I can't seem to find it anymore. Also, is there anyone that has tried crawling the website for statistics? Is Afreeca behind it?
I'm mentioning plasma because half of this thread is people thinking it's broken for ZvP (in favour of Zerg), which is one of the original points I mentioned, and this was just even more evidence to support the idea that they (like you) are clueless on the current state of the game/meta.
I'm a hot headed zerg because I provided you with ample evidence that directly contradict the nonsense you've been spewing? Okay, great retort amigo. I'd strongly suggest going back to SC2 where your balance whining behaviour and patch bitching is acceptable and normal.
Honestly, I feel like people in this thread have been way too polite to you, you've been an obnoxious, aggressive and whining little bitch throughout this thread, making a total of TWENTY THREE (23) posts making the most ridiculous statements like zvp being "heavily imbalanced" and "zerg a-move winning 70% of the time" while contributing absolutely nothing to the discussion, and when confronted with factual evidence that directly contradicts the nonsensical bullshit you've been spewing, you start deflecting and making excuses. People like you contribute absolutely nothing to healthy discussions about anything and this forum would be better without your participation. You should take all of this pent up anger and frustration and channel it in a more positive manner; like actually playing the game and improving -- I think there's a new CPL season coming up, and maybe the RSL would be a good place to begin?
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On October 29 2020 00:36 Avi-Love wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2020 23:16 oxKnu wrote:On October 28 2020 22:03 Avi-Love wrote:
So I just listed a bo3 that happened literally the previous round of the ASL, and your excuse is that Action is a choker? What? Best won 2-0, Best was blind hard-countered by a cheese build on plasma and still won.
And good on you for following these things, but I hope you realise the P team literally beat the Zerg team in the semi finals of the KCM right? And then went on to beat the Terran team in the final? Goldfish again?
So since bo1s don't count (I guess it didn't support your dumb argument so now it's void) how about team battles? Best/Light went 6-3 vs Zero/SK, Best went 4-1. Best/Snow beat Action/Soma 6-3.How about Bisu/Rush beating Zero/SK, granted Rush plays T obviously, but Bisu went 2-1 vs Zero and 2-0 vs SK in that one. Best/Snow also had a 4-5 series vs Zero/SK, which while that is a loss, 4-5 is as close as it gets. Oh and guess what, if you combine those 4 "team" battles, do you know what the score on Plasma is in zvp? it's *drumroll* 0-7! Best even beating Zero THREE TIMES, and Action twice.
Can you please stop posting now? You're clearly an uninformed balance whiner that is looking for an excuse as to why you're terrible at the game. Are you obsessed with Plasma somehow? Everybody knows that is a clown map that no one has really figured out and probably never will. And you're clearly a very hot-headed Zerg player, if anything in this whole discussion. === Does anyone have a link to the sponbang site? I can't seem to find it anymore. Also, is there anyone that has tried crawling the website for statistics? Is Afreeca behind it? I'm mentioning plasma because half of this thread is people thinking it's broken for ZvP (in favour of Zerg), which is one of the original points I mentioned, and this was just even more evidence to support the idea that they (like you) are clueless on the current state of the game/meta. I'm a hot headed zerg because I provided you with ample evidence that directly contradict the nonsense you've been spewing? Okay, great retort amigo. I'd strongly suggest going back to SC2 where your balance whining behaviour and patch bitching is acceptable and normal. Honestly, I feel like people in this thread have been way too polite to you, you've been an obnoxious, aggressive and whining little bitch throughout this thread, making a total of TWENTY THREE (23) posts making the most ridiculous statements like zvp being "heavily imbalanced" and "zerg a-move winning 70% of the time" while contributing absolutely nothing to the discussion, and when confronted with factual evidence that directly contradicts the nonsensical bullshit you've been spewing, you start deflecting and making excuses. People like you contribute absolutely nothing to healthy discussions about anything and this forum would be better without your participation. You should take all of this pent up anger and frustration and channel it in a more positive manner; like actually playing the game and improving -- I think there's a new CPL season coming up, and maybe the RSL would be a good place to begin?
I'm quite calm mister. And I don't need advice, but thank you.
Just to clear something up: I've always held up belief that PvZ was imbalanced (overall Remastered era stats show 55-45% win-ratio for Zerg) so the recent beatdowns in ASL have not skewed my opinion on this very much just re-enforced what has been already known. (albeit in a quite drastic manner).
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United States11390 Posts
So you're clueless about the game and like to ignore people who actually do know something about it while also ignoring any warnings received in the process too? You sure have a bright future here
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oxKnu why do you completely ignore that the maps matter A LOT
the statment "PvZ" is imbalanced is just completely dumb..
maps play such a big role in this game in case u still havent fckng noticed
thus you can say "ZvP is imbalanced on this map" or maybe "ZvP is imba with this map pool" or maybe even "ZvP is imba with recent map design"
however u can not say that ZvP is imbalanced in general
this is obv true for every (non mirror) match up
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On October 29 2020 02:27 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
oxKnu why do you completely ignore that the maps matter A LOT
the statment "PvZ" is imbalanced is just completely dumb..
maps play such a big role in this game in case u still havent fckng noticed
thus you can say "ZvP is imbalanced on this map" or maybe "ZvP is imba with this map pool" or maybe even "ZvP is imba with recent map design"
however u can not say that ZvP is imbalanced in general
this is obv true for every (non mirror) match up
Another person who gets it. Thank you.
And even beyond that, good players will be able to succeed on imba maps by approaching the maps differently (savior and jangbi comes to mind for me). So the quality of players also matters (Light plays PvT better than a lot of actual protoss players, for example...). So, overall, the overall balance of the game relies on more things than just the races themselves. Thankfully, BW has no ceiling so complaining about the balance at the highest level is completely pointless and has always proven to be wrong anyway. You can always just play better.
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On October 29 2020 02:27 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
oxKnu why do you completely ignore that the maps matter A LOT
the statment "PvZ" is imbalanced is just completely dumb..
maps play such a big role in this game in case u still havent fckng noticed
thus you can say "ZvP is imbalanced on this map" or maybe "ZvP is imba with this map pool" or maybe even "ZvP is imba with recent map design"
however u can not say that ZvP is imbalanced in general
this is obv true for every (non mirror) match up
Roughly 80 percent of available maps favor Zerg. It's pretty clear that maps cannot be blamed for the sad state of PvZ.
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On October 29 2020 02:39 Maks wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2020 02:27 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
oxKnu why do you completely ignore that the maps matter A LOT
the statment "PvZ" is imbalanced is just completely dumb..
maps play such a big role in this game in case u still havent fckng noticed
thus you can say "ZvP is imbalanced on this map" or maybe "ZvP is imba with this map pool" or maybe even "ZvP is imba with recent map design"
however u can not say that ZvP is imbalanced in general
this is obv true for every (non mirror) match up
Roughly 80 percent of available maps favor Zerg. It's pretty clear that maps cannot be blamed for the sad state of PvZ.
You just proved his point. What about they make or use maps that aren't zerg favored then? It's very easy to do.
But you know, protoss players could just get better too. If Bisu can do it, so do other players, or else they are simply just not good enough. People like to blame the race balance while totally ignoring that some players succeed in these supposedly "imba" matchups.
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On October 29 2020 02:39 Maks wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2020 02:27 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
oxKnu why do you completely ignore that the maps matter A LOT
the statment "PvZ" is imbalanced is just completely dumb..
maps play such a big role in this game in case u still havent fckng noticed
thus you can say "ZvP is imbalanced on this map" or maybe "ZvP is imba with this map pool" or maybe even "ZvP is imba with recent map design"
however u can not say that ZvP is imbalanced in general
this is obv true for every (non mirror) match up
Roughly 80 percent of available maps favor Zerg. It's pretty clear that maps cannot be blamed for the sad state of PvZ.
SAY WHAT?
O_O
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I would call PvZ (only) somewhat imbalanced, based on historical data. I am assessing only top play.
Yes, it is far more about maps than any inherent things, but that should level out since BW became an esport, and yes it is also about top players playing certain races, but it cannot be argued that the pool of P players is <33%, so in over 20 years of Starcraft, champions should come out of it.
What we see is a pattern:
KSL wins: 2T 1Z 1P
ASL wins: 6T 3Z 2P (Flash is really the outlier)
MSL wins: 12T 10Z 4P
OSL wins: 14T 10Z 10P
Plus, regarding lesser tournaments:
KCM Race wins: 8T 6Z 1P
Generally, P fairs the worst. The imbalance is, as said, in the range 55-45 and it can be easily solved with maps, but the need to solve it means that long term it will come out again because you cannot be solving it all the time.
To summarise, I am not some guy who just screams imbalance. But I can also see the merit of changing simple things, like HT HPs, to give P a bit higher chances with no possibility to introduce imbalances.
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There is no race imbalance in ZvP. There are map and player imbalances.
Maps with mineral only expansions changed the PvZ matchup drastically.
Zerg can easily get 4 gas bases while protoss has a mineral only 3rd.
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And if you have thirds with gas, how does that change other matchups? We never had a tournament where there are specific map pools for specific matchups. This is what makes balance across all matchups quite delicate.
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In over 10 years of following the scene, I've seen countless times people complaining that things are too hard for P in pvz. Not once have I heard that for Z. It's obvious that most of the people here are just racists cheering for P, and they just whine like babies when their favorites lose./s
Now, of course the maps can be created to be more favorable for P in pvz. But what is called standard maps nowadays makes the match-up broken at its core actually. Why? Because of what I call the imbalance of options. It is well known in game theory that the more options one has, the better his chances to win. So let's look at the options players have in a pvz on a standard map. I mean, viable options:
Z - 5 pool, 2 hatch mass lings, 2 hatch hydra, 3 hatch hydra, 3 hatch muta, 3 hatch scourge 5 hatch hydra, fast lurker, slow lurker drop, fast lurker drop, slop hydra drop, luker contain. All of them are viable strategies that can be played.
P - FE into hts, FE into reavers, one base fast reaver and FE goons reavers maybe? 2gates in the center of the map maybe? There's the small variation of FE with gate first or forge first. And that's pretty much it.
P ends up playing standard 90% of the time because other options are prone to single errors and cannot really surprise zerg, since they have easy scouting. While Z can go as wild as they want. This advantage of the number of options is especially important in Bo5 where Z can make a plan for every single game and practice it forever. For P that preparation is just practicing reacting to a billion options that Z has to throw at them. The result is that P will not be well prepared for either of those, because he cannot practice every single option too many times.
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On October 29 2020 05:42 arbiter_md wrote:
In over 10 years of following the scene, I've seen countless times people complaining that things are too hard for P in pvz. Not once have I heard that for Z. It's obvious that most of the people here are just racists cheering for P, and they just whine like babies when their favorites lose./s
Now, of course the maps can be created to be more favorable for P in pvz. But what is called standard maps nowadays makes the match-up broken at its core actually. Why? Because of what I call the imbalance of options. It is well known in game theory that the more options one has, the better his chances to win. So let's look at the options players have in a pvz on a standard map. I mean, viable options:
Z - 5 pool, 2 hatch mass lings, 2 hatch hydra, 3 hatch hydra, 3 hatch muta, 3 hatch scourge 5 hatch hydra, fast lurker, slow lurker drop, fast lurker drop, slop hydra drop, luker contain. All of them are viable strategies that can be played.
P - FE into hts, FE into reavers, one base fast reaver and FE goons reavers maybe? 2gates in the center of the map maybe? There's the small variation of FE with gate first or forge first. And that's pretty much it.
P ends up playing standard 90% of the time because other options are prone to single errors and cannot really surprise zerg, since they have easy scouting. While Z can go as wild as they want. This advantage of the number of options is especially important in Bo5 where Z can make a plan for every single game and practice it forever. For P that preparation is just practicing reacting to a billion options that Z has to throw at them. The result is that P will not be well prepared for either of those, because he cannot practice every single option too many times.
Everything you've said applies to PvT too and most protoss players still find a way to almost do the same predictable build every game. So even if protoss players had more options in PvZ, what makes you think they would even dare to try new things? Only the best zerg and terran players are willing to experiment and push their respective metas if they start getting countered. Protoss players do the opposite and they need terran players to tell them what to do (flash and light). I would say that at least Nal_ra and Bisu (for PvZ) and Jangbi (for PvT) have been willing to experiment and bring multiple builds to their arsenals. One of the best thing from the Afreeca "era" of starcraft was when Larva and Flash kept playing against each other and Flash was destroying Larva and eventually, by changing his playstyle and units, he was able to beat Flash constantly, so then Flash had to adapt with his 1/1/1 build and they kept going at each other with the domination going both ways. As a result, Larva became an absolute ZvT monster. During the Afreeca era, I've never seen a single protoss coming close to trying to do the same with another high level player. Light did the same for TvP but he did it by playing protoss himself instead... I don't know, but at least to me protoss pro gamers are kind of a joke when it comes to their involvment with the game, they seem to prefer to constantly complain about balance rather than learning from those who succeeded before them. It's a real shame.
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Mapmakers are experimenting with small changes that have a big impact. For example on some maps the third gas is more easily accessible, in the case of Optimizer it's directly accessible but there's only 1000 gas in it (meanwhile the other one has 4000). This gives protoss a chance to quickly produce more HT's at a crucial stage of the game, and after depletion it's a permanent source of 2 extra gas, which also makes a difference.
A number of variations of this idea can be tried, and this one seems quite well done, as it creates a different meta in every matchup, but it doesn't appear to break any of the matchups.
Then there are terrain changes that can help protoss players out. It's standard practice for 1v1 map makers to make sure the natural expansion can be defended well enough against timing attacks. There's a lot of fine tuning that's been happening throughout the history of the game.
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On October 29 2020 05:35 Rainalcar wrote:
And if you have thirds with gas, how does that change other matchups? We never had a tournament where there are specific map pools for specific matchups. This is what makes balance across all matchups quite delicate.
It doesn't impact the other matchups nearly as much as it does PvZ, if at all.
Zerg can easily take a main base expansion as their 3rd base, take the main as 4th and have 4 gas.
On mineral only 3rd base maps, protoss will be on a 2 gas army composition while zerg will have 3, then 4 gas.
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On October 29 2020 06:05 Essbee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2020 05:42 arbiter_md wrote:
In over 10 years of following the scene, I've seen countless times people complaining that things are too hard for P in pvz. Not once have I heard that for Z. It's obvious that most of the people here are just racists cheering for P, and they just whine like babies when their favorites lose./s
Now, of course the maps can be created to be more favorable for P in pvz. But what is called standard maps nowadays makes the match-up broken at its core actually. Why? Because of what I call the imbalance of options. It is well known in game theory that the more options one has, the better his chances to win. So let's look at the options players have in a pvz on a standard map. I mean, viable options:
Z - 5 pool, 2 hatch mass lings, 2 hatch hydra, 3 hatch hydra, 3 hatch muta, 3 hatch scourge 5 hatch hydra, fast lurker, slow lurker drop, fast lurker drop, slop hydra drop, luker contain. All of them are viable strategies that can be played.
P - FE into hts, FE into reavers, one base fast reaver and FE goons reavers maybe? 2gates in the center of the map maybe? There's the small variation of FE with gate first or forge first. And that's pretty much it.
P ends up playing standard 90% of the time because other options are prone to single errors and cannot really surprise zerg, since they have easy scouting. While Z can go as wild as they want. This advantage of the number of options is especially important in Bo5 where Z can make a plan for every single game and practice it forever. For P that preparation is just practicing reacting to a billion options that Z has to throw at them. The result is that P will not be well prepared for either of those, because he cannot practice every single option too many times. One of the best thing from the Afreeca "era" of starcraft was when Larva and Flash kept playing against each other and Flash was destroying Larva and eventually, by changing his playstyle and units, he was able to beat Flash constantly, so then Flash had to adapt with his 1/1/1 build and they kept going at each other with the domination going both ways. As a result, Larva became an absolute ZvT monster.
This is absolutely incorrect. Wildly incorrect at that. Larva has never reached a win-rate bigger than 30% over a significant period of time over Flash. On the contrary, most of the time he gets absolutely wrecked at a higher clip than most other Zergs.
Your argument is absolute nonsense as well. Insinuating that protoss pros "don't try new things". Given their winning percentages I'd beg to differ and say that they are the ones exploring new options.
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On October 29 2020 05:42 arbiter_md wrote:
In over 10 years of following the scene, I've seen countless times people complaining that things are too hard for P in pvz. Not once have I heard that for Z. It's obvious that most of the people here are just racists cheering for P, and they just whine like babies when their favorites lose./s
Now, of course the maps can be created to be more favorable for P in pvz. But what is called standard maps nowadays makes the match-up broken at its core actually. Why? Because of what I call the imbalance of options. It is well known in game theory that the more options one has, the better his chances to win. So let's look at the options players have in a pvz on a standard map. I mean, viable options:
Z - 5 pool, 2 hatch mass lings, 2 hatch hydra, 3 hatch hydra, 3 hatch muta, 3 hatch scourge 5 hatch hydra, fast lurker, slow lurker drop, fast lurker drop, slop hydra drop, luker contain. All of them are viable strategies that can be played.
P - FE into hts, FE into reavers, one base fast reaver and FE goons reavers maybe? 2gates in the center of the map maybe? There's the small variation of FE with gate first or forge first. And that's pretty much it.
P ends up playing standard 90% of the time because other options are prone to single errors and cannot really surprise zerg, since they have easy scouting. While Z can go as wild as they want. This advantage of the number of options is especially important in Bo5 where Z can make a plan for every single game and practice it forever. For P that preparation is just practicing reacting to a billion options that Z has to throw at them. The result is that P will not be well prepared for either of those, because he cannot practice every single option too many times.
This is true, but it cannot and should not be changed, except via maps. Protoss simply doesn't have great scouting options vZ, I don't see how it can be changed except via maps.
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On October 29 2020 06:23 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2020 06:05 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 05:42 arbiter_md wrote:
In over 10 years of following the scene, I've seen countless times people complaining that things are too hard for P in pvz. Not once have I heard that for Z. It's obvious that most of the people here are just racists cheering for P, and they just whine like babies when their favorites lose./s
Now, of course the maps can be created to be more favorable for P in pvz. But what is called standard maps nowadays makes the match-up broken at its core actually. Why? Because of what I call the imbalance of options. It is well known in game theory that the more options one has, the better his chances to win. So let's look at the options players have in a pvz on a standard map. I mean, viable options:
Z - 5 pool, 2 hatch mass lings, 2 hatch hydra, 3 hatch hydra, 3 hatch muta, 3 hatch scourge 5 hatch hydra, fast lurker, slow lurker drop, fast lurker drop, slop hydra drop, luker contain. All of them are viable strategies that can be played.
P - FE into hts, FE into reavers, one base fast reaver and FE goons reavers maybe? 2gates in the center of the map maybe? There's the small variation of FE with gate first or forge first. And that's pretty much it.
P ends up playing standard 90% of the time because other options are prone to single errors and cannot really surprise zerg, since they have easy scouting. While Z can go as wild as they want. This advantage of the number of options is especially important in Bo5 where Z can make a plan for every single game and practice it forever. For P that preparation is just practicing reacting to a billion options that Z has to throw at them. The result is that P will not be well prepared for either of those, because he cannot practice every single option too many times. One of the best thing from the Afreeca "era" of starcraft was when Larva and Flash kept playing against each other and Flash was destroying Larva and eventually, by changing his playstyle and units, he was able to beat Flash constantly, so then Flash had to adapt with his 1/1/1 build and they kept going at each other with the domination going both ways. As a result, Larva became an absolute ZvT monster. This is absolutely incorrect. Wildly incorrect at that. Larva has never reached a win-rate bigger than 30% over a significant period of time over Flash. On the contrary, most of the time he gets absolutely wrecked at a higher clip than most other Zergs. Your argument is absolute nonsense as well. Insinuating that protoss pros "don't try new things". Given their winning percentages I'd beg to differ and say that they are the ones exploring new options.
Larva never got close to 50:50 vs Flash.
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On October 29 2020 06:23 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2020 06:05 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 05:42 arbiter_md wrote:
In over 10 years of following the scene, I've seen countless times people complaining that things are too hard for P in pvz. Not once have I heard that for Z. It's obvious that most of the people here are just racists cheering for P, and they just whine like babies when their favorites lose./s
Now, of course the maps can be created to be more favorable for P in pvz. But what is called standard maps nowadays makes the match-up broken at its core actually. Why? Because of what I call the imbalance of options. It is well known in game theory that the more options one has, the better his chances to win. So let's look at the options players have in a pvz on a standard map. I mean, viable options:
Z - 5 pool, 2 hatch mass lings, 2 hatch hydra, 3 hatch hydra, 3 hatch muta, 3 hatch scourge 5 hatch hydra, fast lurker, slow lurker drop, fast lurker drop, slop hydra drop, luker contain. All of them are viable strategies that can be played.
P - FE into hts, FE into reavers, one base fast reaver and FE goons reavers maybe? 2gates in the center of the map maybe? There's the small variation of FE with gate first or forge first. And that's pretty much it.
P ends up playing standard 90% of the time because other options are prone to single errors and cannot really surprise zerg, since they have easy scouting. While Z can go as wild as they want. This advantage of the number of options is especially important in Bo5 where Z can make a plan for every single game and practice it forever. For P that preparation is just practicing reacting to a billion options that Z has to throw at them. The result is that P will not be well prepared for either of those, because he cannot practice every single option too many times. One of the best thing from the Afreeca "era" of starcraft was when Larva and Flash kept playing against each other and Flash was destroying Larva and eventually, by changing his playstyle and units, he was able to beat Flash constantly, so then Flash had to adapt with his 1/1/1 build and they kept going at each other with the domination going both ways. As a result, Larva became an absolute ZvT monster. This is absolutely incorrect. Wildly incorrect at that. Larva has never reached a win-rate bigger than 30% over a significant period of time over Flash. On the contrary, most of the time he gets absolutely wrecked at a higher clip than most other Zergs. Your argument is absolute nonsense as well. Insinuating that protoss pros "don't try new things". Given their winning percentages I'd beg to differ and say that they are the ones exploring new options.
Your entire posts until now have been "absolute nonsense", so it's logical that you think protoss are exploring new options when they are obviously not. I'll leave it at that. They've been fed new strategies by Flash and Light (2 non protoss players)
And yes, there were periods where Flash had trouble beating Larva. Larva vs Flash at their peak was one of the most anticipated matchup among the BW community.
You don't seem to be well informed at all, I suggest you do a little bit of research before your next post. Just a friendly tip.
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EPT
