The overall point, though, was that terran and zerg players are willing to push the meta for their respective race while the protoss meta stays stagnant. Protoss players need to be better and smarter.
Finally, someone said it. Protoss pros are just worse than their respective peers. They're slower and don't play as smart.
In my humble opinion, it's due to a selection bias - since T/Z are harder to play than P, worse players stick with P and can relatively keep up since P makes more out of their skills, while better players are able to be successful with T/Z, and since they're just better, they naturally outstrip everyone else in results.
Just look at what Flash did with Protoss, how he beat Snow and Rush so cleanly despite not being a P main. IMHO Protoss players need to experiment with more units and spells. What Larva did with Queens, a unit that had been for the longest time belittled as "theorycraft and unviable," is a great example of how to advance one's race, and a reminder that we haven't figured it all out.
The bolded is exactly what I think too, thank you. Protoss players generally pick up bad habits because the race is easier to play at first. But once you reach progamer level, you need to be faster, better and smarter. Jangbi is the example I'll always come back to for being a proper high level protoss player. He had near 400 apm and was able to use every single protoss unit (I guess except scouts lol) at an extremely high level. He was unpredictable (one of the overlooked strength of protoss) and could beat anyone on any map at his peak. Too bad he had stage fright for such a long time. Bisu is close (also high apm) but his vT is still an enigma that I don't understand to this day.
If a protoss player can dominate terrans (Jangbi), then the example for the other protoss players is right in front of their eyes. The balance talks become pointless. Just "git gud".
If a protoss player can dominate zergs (Bisu), then the example for the other protoss players is right in front of their eyes. The balance talks become pointless. Just "git gud".
What the hell is this outrageous nonsense? Protoss players are bad, you say? How comes that all of the Starleagues in 2019 had at least one Protoss finalist? Yes, Rain was the one who won one and he's retired now but tell me, where were your superior Zerg players? Effort, pre-retirement Soulkey, Larva, Zero, Soma, Jaedong were playing but the best they obtained was a double ro4 last year.
That's perfect then, protoss isn't underpowered, case closed. Thank you very much.
The overall point, though, was that terran and zerg players are willing to push the meta for their respective race while the protoss meta stays stagnant. Protoss players need to be better and smarter.
Finally, someone said it. Protoss pros are just worse than their respective peers. They're slower and don't play as smart.
In my humble opinion, it's due to a selection bias - since T/Z are harder to play than P, worse players stick with P and can relatively keep up since P makes more out of their skills, while better players are able to be successful with T/Z, and since they're just better, they naturally outstrip everyone else in results.
Just look at what Flash did with Protoss, how he beat Snow and Rush so cleanly despite not being a P main. IMHO Protoss players need to experiment with more units and spells. What Larva did with Queens, a unit that had been for the longest time belittled as "theorycraft and unviable," is a great example of how to advance one's race, and a reminder that we haven't figured it all out.
The bolded is exactly what I think too, thank you. Protoss players generally pick up bad habits because the race is easier to play at first. But once you reach progamer level, you need to be faster, better and smarter. Jangbi is the example I'll always come back to for being a proper high level protoss player. He had near 400 apm and was able to use every single protoss unit (I guess except scouts lol) at an extremely high level. He was unpredictable (one of the overlooked strength of protoss) and could beat anyone on any map at his peak. Too bad he had stage fright for such a long time. Bisu is close (also high apm) but his vT is still an enigma that I don't understand to this day.
If a protoss player can dominate terrans (Jangbi), then the example for the other protoss players is right in front of their eyes. The balance talks become pointless. Just "git gud".
If a protoss player can dominate zergs (Bisu), then the example for the other protoss players is right in front of their eyes. The balance talks become pointless. Just "git gud".
Funny that JangBi actually used Scouts smartly against Crazy-Hydra, hybrid proleague 2012. CH delayed the hydra den and the Scout did some fine harass in the game iirc.
The overall point, though, was that terran and zerg players are willing to push the meta for their respective race while the protoss meta stays stagnant. Protoss players need to be better and smarter.
Finally, someone said it. Protoss pros are just worse than their respective peers. They're slower and don't play as smart.
In my humble opinion, it's due to a selection bias - since T/Z are harder to play than P, worse players stick with P and can relatively keep up since P makes more out of their skills, while better players are able to be successful with T/Z, and since they're just better, they naturally outstrip everyone else in results.
Just look at what Flash did with Protoss, how he beat Snow and Rush so cleanly despite not being a P main. IMHO Protoss players need to experiment with more units and spells. What Larva did with Queens, a unit that had been for the longest time belittled as "theorycraft and unviable," is a great example of how to advance one's race, and a reminder that we haven't figured it all out.
The bolded is exactly what I think too, thank you. Protoss players generally pick up bad habits because the race is easier to play at first. But once you reach progamer level, you need to be faster, better and smarter. Jangbi is the example I'll always come back to for being a proper high level protoss player. He had near 400 apm and was able to use every single protoss unit (I guess except scouts lol) at an extremely high level. He was unpredictable (one of the overlooked strength of protoss) and could beat anyone on any map at his peak. Too bad he had stage fright for such a long time. Bisu is close (also high apm) but his vT is still an enigma that I don't understand to this day.
If a protoss player can dominate terrans (Jangbi), then the example for the other protoss players is right in front of their eyes. The balance talks become pointless. Just "git gud".
If a protoss player can dominate zergs (Bisu), then the example for the other protoss players is right in front of their eyes. The balance talks become pointless. Just "git gud".
Funny that JangBi actually used Scouts smartly against Crazy-Hydra, hybrid proleague 2012. CH delayed the hydra den and the Scout did some fine harass in the game iirc.
Seriously? I had no idea. I'll check that out lmao. Thanks.
The overall point, though, was that terran and zerg players are willing to push the meta for their respective race while the protoss meta stays stagnant. Protoss players need to be better and smarter.
Finally, someone said it. Protoss pros are just worse than their respective peers. They're slower and don't play as smart.
In my humble opinion, it's due to a selection bias - since T/Z are harder to play than P, worse players stick with P and can relatively keep up since P makes more out of their skills, while better players are able to be successful with T/Z, and since they're just better, they naturally outstrip everyone else in results.
Just look at what Flash did with Protoss, how he beat Snow and Rush so cleanly despite not being a P main. IMHO Protoss players need to experiment with more units and spells. What Larva did with Queens, a unit that had been for the longest time belittled as "theorycraft and unviable," is a great example of how to advance one's race, and a reminder that we haven't figured it all out.
The bolded is exactly what I think too, thank you. Protoss players generally pick up bad habits because the race is easier to play at first. But once you reach progamer level, you need to be faster, better and smarter. Jangbi is the example I'll always come back to for being a proper high level protoss player. He had near 400 apm and was able to use every single protoss unit (I guess except scouts lol) at an extremely high level. He was unpredictable (one of the overlooked strength of protoss) and could beat anyone on any map at his peak. Too bad he had stage fright for such a long time. Bisu is close (also high apm) but his vT is still an enigma that I don't understand to this day.
If a protoss player can dominate terrans (Jangbi), then the example for the other protoss players is right in front of their eyes. The balance talks become pointless. Just "git gud".
If a protoss player can dominate zergs (Bisu), then the example for the other protoss players is right in front of their eyes. The balance talks become pointless. Just "git gud".
What the hell is this outrageous nonsense? Protoss players are bad, you say? How comes that all of the Starleagues in 2019 had at least one Protoss finalist? Yes, Rain was the one who won one and he's retired now but tell me, where were your superior Zerg players? Effort, pre-retirement Soulkey, Larva, Zero, Soma, Jaedong were playing but the best they obtained was a double ro4 last year.
That's perfect then, protoss isn't underpowered, case closed. Thank you very much.
Best choked, Snow isn't playing that well while Soma and ZerO are doing great.
In any of case, the struggle in PvZ seems real so most likely we need a different map pool more favourable to Protoss(and less to Zerg).
On October 29 2020 05:42 arbiter_md wrote: In over 10 years of following the scene, I've seen countless times people complaining that things are too hard for P in pvz. Not once have I heard that for Z. It's obvious that most of the people here are just racists cheering for P, and they just whine like babies when their favorites lose./s
Now, of course the maps can be created to be more favorable for P in pvz. But what is called standard maps nowadays makes the match-up broken at its core actually. Why? Because of what I call the imbalance of options. It is well known in game theory that the more options one has, the better his chances to win. So let's look at the options players have in a pvz on a standard map. I mean, viable options:
Z - 5 pool, 2 hatch mass lings, 2 hatch hydra, 3 hatch hydra, 3 hatch muta, 3 hatch scourge 5 hatch hydra, fast lurker, slow lurker drop, fast lurker drop, slop hydra drop, luker contain. All of them are viable strategies that can be played. P - FE into hts, FE into reavers, one base fast reaver and FE goons reavers maybe? 2gates in the center of the map maybe? There's the small variation of FE with gate first or forge first. And that's pretty much it.
P ends up playing standard 90% of the time because other options are prone to single errors and cannot really surprise zerg, since they have easy scouting. While Z can go as wild as they want. This advantage of the number of options is especially important in Bo5 where Z can make a plan for every single game and practice it forever. For P that preparation is just practicing reacting to a billion options that Z has to throw at them. The result is that P will not be well prepared for either of those, because he cannot practice every single option too many times.
90% of the zerg strategies u refear to as viable zvp are NOT viable srry to tell u.. no clue what u are smoking/what ur level is
The overall point, though, was that terran and zerg players are willing to push the meta for their respective race while the protoss meta stays stagnant. Protoss players need to be better and smarter.
Finally, someone said it. Protoss pros are just worse than their respective peers. They're slower and don't play as smart.
In my humble opinion, it's due to a selection bias - since T/Z are harder to play than P, worse players stick with P and can relatively keep up since P makes more out of their skills, while better players are able to be successful with T/Z, and since they're just better, they naturally outstrip everyone else in results.
Just look at what Flash did with Protoss, how he beat Snow and Rush so cleanly despite not being a P main. IMHO Protoss players need to experiment with more units and spells. What Larva did with Queens, a unit that had been for the longest time belittled as "theorycraft and unviable," is a great example of how to advance one's race, and a reminder that we haven't figured it all out.
The bolded is exactly what I think too, thank you. Protoss players generally pick up bad habits because the race is easier to play at first. But once you reach progamer level, you need to be faster, better and smarter. Jangbi is the example I'll always come back to for being a proper high level protoss player. He had near 400 apm and was able to use every single protoss unit (I guess except scouts lol) at an extremely high level. He was unpredictable (one of the overlooked strength of protoss) and could beat anyone on any map at his peak. Too bad he had stage fright for such a long time. Bisu is close (also high apm) but his vT is still an enigma that I don't understand to this day.
If a protoss player can dominate terrans (Jangbi), then the example for the other protoss players is right in front of their eyes. The balance talks become pointless. Just "git gud".
If a protoss player can dominate zergs (Bisu), then the example for the other protoss players is right in front of their eyes. The balance talks become pointless. Just "git gud".
What the hell is this outrageous nonsense? Protoss players are bad, you say? How comes that all of the Starleagues in 2019 had at least one Protoss finalist? Yes, Rain was the one who won one and he's retired now but tell me, where were your superior Zerg players? Effort, pre-retirement Soulkey, Larva, Zero, Soma, Jaedong were playing but the best they obtained was a double ro4 last year.
That's perfect then, protoss isn't underpowered, case closed. Thank you very much.
Best choked, Snow isn't playing that well while Soma and ZerO are doing great.
In any of case, the struggle in PvZ seems real so most likely we need a different map pool more favourable to Protoss(and less to Zerg).
The overall point, though, was that terran and zerg players are willing to push the meta for their respective race while the protoss meta stays stagnant. Protoss players need to be better and smarter.
Finally, someone said it. Protoss pros are just worse than their respective peers. They're slower and don't play as smart.
In my humble opinion, it's due to a selection bias - since T/Z are harder to play than P, worse players stick with P and can relatively keep up since P makes more out of their skills, while better players are able to be successful with T/Z, and since they're just better, they naturally outstrip everyone else in results.
Just look at what Flash did with Protoss, how he beat Snow and Rush so cleanly despite not being a P main. IMHO Protoss players need to experiment with more units and spells. What Larva did with Queens, a unit that had been for the longest time belittled as "theorycraft and unviable," is a great example of how to advance one's race, and a reminder that we haven't figured it all out.
The bolded is exactly what I think too, thank you. Protoss players generally pick up bad habits because the race is easier to play at first. But once you reach progamer level, you need to be faster, better and smarter. Jangbi is the example I'll always come back to for being a proper high level protoss player. He had near 400 apm and was able to use every single protoss unit (I guess except scouts lol) at an extremely high level. He was unpredictable (one of the overlooked strength of protoss) and could beat anyone on any map at his peak. Too bad he had stage fright for such a long time. Bisu is close (also high apm) but his vT is still an enigma that I don't understand to this day.
If a protoss player can dominate terrans (Jangbi), then the example for the other protoss players is right in front of their eyes. The balance talks become pointless. Just "git gud".
If a protoss player can dominate zergs (Bisu), then the example for the other protoss players is right in front of their eyes. The balance talks become pointless. Just "git gud".
What the hell is this outrageous nonsense? Protoss players are bad, you say? How comes that all of the Starleagues in 2019 had at least one Protoss finalist? Yes, Rain was the one who won one and he's retired now but tell me, where were your superior Zerg players? Effort, pre-retirement Soulkey, Larva, Zero, Soma, Jaedong were playing but the best they obtained was a double ro4 last year.
That's perfect then, protoss isn't underpowered, case closed. Thank you very much.
Best choked, Snow isn't playing that well while Soma and ZerO are doing great.
In any of case, the struggle in PvZ seems real so most likely we need a different map pool more favourable to Protoss(and less to Zerg).
Agreed.
And moreso, without being rude... Best is a great player, who just seems to have problem with offline settings and longer series. I remember talking with Letmelose about Last having same kind of problem to adjust in longer series. And then Last shutted down his stream and win KSL 1. I have not seen Best or Snow do this. Best choking has been the case for so long that I dont even know if he can overcome it. I miss Letmelose so much, I wonder how he would see this series as part of Bests hubrice in premiere tournaments.
The more I think back, the more (big and small) discoveries I can recall. The muta tech switch to snipe HT's, effectively forcing protoss back into his base when it's his time to push out and claim more bases or kill zerg. I believe the first time we saw it executed optimally in a televised match was by Zero on Destination? This was the talk of the town and everyone immediately started practicing it. It was so strong that it resulted in experimentation with maelstrom, which didn't show great results. I believe the reason it took so long for zerg players to use this strat was because it's a very specific counter within a very short timeframe, requiring attention to detail, great unit control and some serious guts (as in flying a muta ball directly into a protoss army). Those mutas were even used to outmicro archons, another previously unthinkable play. I believe I could dig up hundreds of little plays that were discovered that kept changing the meta back and forth. Or just this year I was surprised to find that people figured out lurkers can burrow faster by pressing 'hold' a split second before 'burrow' (basically by quickly adjusting the lurker into the burrow stance). Although I guess some progamers have known this for a while?
Big and small things like that can have a significant impact on the winrate of a race. And yet people talk about balance patches. I think this whole attitude stems from Blizzard over-balancing SC2 to an absurd degree, basically disincentivizing players to be creative and come up with their own solutions under the pressure of (perceived) matchup "imbalance".
This game. Oh, and while I agree P players need to be more like JangBi, still this doesn't mean PvZ isn't imbalanced.
What the heck did I just watch? That was brilliant!! I've always thought that Protoss' strength was that they could do a lot with a little, and I loved how JangBi used just one Archon, DT, and Scout to great effect. Loved how he was persistent with the DT, not backing off after the first attempt, but taking a risk to run past Crazy's defenses during the second. And how he used the Archon to fight off the Mutas/Scourge and then bringing it in for a well-timed attack.
I believe that Protoss can have great staying power on defense, like T, while having great skirmish potential like Z as well. Maybe the ideal way to play Protoss requires a combination of T and Z skill sets. So maybe P hasn't seen as much success at the highest levels because it's actually the hardest race to get the most out of?
On October 29 2020 08:43 Liquid`Drone wrote: The dweb revolution is long overdue.
I honestly feel like DWeb has great potential. P's make Corsairs but don't even use their spell, it's like only getting half out of your unit, a shame. I feel like it would be a huge headache for Zerg to deal with 7-8 +1 Corsairs with DWeb and a Shuttle with DT, Reaver, or even Zealots.
Agreed with all the above (whaski, Magic Powers and Light-). Great posts all around. Thank you for pushing the discussion positively with well thought out posts like that.
I would love nothing more than for Flash to switch to P and kill every Z there is. I don't think he can do it, I think it's a race thing, but I would love to be proven wrong. An online match here and there doesn't qualify nor do matches with R advantage - I mean a real switch to P. That would imo be far more awesome than R.
On October 29 2020 17:15 Rainalcar wrote: I would love nothing more than for Flash to switch to P and kill every Z there is. I don't think he can do it, I think it's a race thing, but I would love to be proven wrong. An online match here and there doesn't qualify nor do matches with R advantage - I mean a real switch to P. That would imo be far more awesome than R.
Flash's style/take in PvZ is already quite known by now. He likes reavers and favors double forge builds for the most part.
I think generally he would be involved in a lot of macro games at the beginning (first year of actually main-ing P) and afterwards he'll probably figure out some more refined builds/timings to finish the game earlier against the Zerg meta.
The thing with Flash is, he's very confident and if for example his reaver micro gets any good it wouldn't surprise me if 40% of the time he would go sair/reaver or smth like that just to throw the Zergs way off their normal builds.
On October 29 2020 05:42 arbiter_md wrote: In over 10 years of following the scene, I've seen countless times people complaining that things are too hard for P in pvz. Not once have I heard that for Z. It's obvious that most of the people here are just racists cheering for P, and they just whine like babies when their favorites lose./s
Now, of course the maps can be created to be more favorable for P in pvz. But what is called standard maps nowadays makes the match-up broken at its core actually. Why? Because of what I call the imbalance of options. It is well known in game theory that the more options one has, the better his chances to win. So let's look at the options players have in a pvz on a standard map. I mean, viable options:
Z - 5 pool, 2 hatch mass lings, 2 hatch hydra, 3 hatch hydra, 3 hatch muta, 3 hatch scourge 5 hatch hydra, fast lurker, slow lurker drop, fast lurker drop, slop hydra drop, luker contain. All of them are viable strategies that can be played. P - FE into hts, FE into reavers, one base fast reaver and FE goons reavers maybe? 2gates in the center of the map maybe? There's the small variation of FE with gate first or forge first. And that's pretty much it.
P ends up playing standard 90% of the time because other options are prone to single errors and cannot really surprise zerg, since they have easy scouting. While Z can go as wild as they want. This advantage of the number of options is especially important in Bo5 where Z can make a plan for every single game and practice it forever. For P that preparation is just practicing reacting to a billion options that Z has to throw at them. The result is that P will not be well prepared for either of those, because he cannot practice every single option too many times.
One of the best thing from the Afreeca "era" of starcraft was when Larva and Flash kept playing against each other and Flash was destroying Larva and eventually, by changing his playstyle and units, he was able to beat Flash constantly, so then Flash had to adapt with his 1/1/1 build and they kept going at each other with the domination going both ways. As a result, Larva became an absolute ZvT monster.
This is absolutely incorrect. Wildly incorrect at that. Larva has never reached a win-rate bigger than 30% over a significant period of time over Flash. On the contrary, most of the time he gets absolutely wrecked at a higher clip than most other Zergs.
Your argument is absolute nonsense as well. Insinuating that protoss pros "don't try new things". Given their winning percentages I'd beg to differ and say that they are the ones exploring new options.
You don't seem to be well informed at all, I suggest you do a little bit of research before your next post. Just a friendly tip.
Larva has a pathetic record against Flash and that has always been the case. Larva did not make Flash do anything in re: to his strategy or build orders.
On a lighter note, what they did have is that incredible game, can't find it now. Larva fought with virtually broodlings vs Flash who was trying to set up a new base in the middle of the map. If anyone knows, it's one of the craziest games I've ever seen.
These kind of games were regular occurrence at their peak.
I've watched plenty, nothing like this one.
Okay, maybe you have something specific in mind, tell me if you find it.
Honestly I'm starting to get really annoyed with the idiocy and misinformation in this thread, are you guys just completely out of touch with reality? Do you not follow the scene? Do you not understand the game at all?
First of all Falsh's pvz has nothing to do with fucking reavers, he plays the most stock standard sair/zeal attack into zeal/ht into 8 gate and/or exp, he's been doing this for weeks. He actually had a lot of success, especially on ringing bloom, where he would consistently do well against the very best zergs -- it does seem like Zero started figuring out how to counter his style, and he would implement a lot of big drop (counter drop / doom drop) play with hydras. There were a couple of funny games where he would also drop drones and start manner hatcheries in the middle of Flash's main.
Second of all there is absolutely no need for any sort of patch, if you think there is you're blind to the evolution of the game. Sc:bw is never going to be patched, any and all need for balance changes is done via maps, which gives more than enough room to tinker with things -- if you don't believe that, just look at how a lot of maps have completely changed the meta and mu balance throughout the ASL. Sparkle changed all of the matchups on their head, Ringing Bloom has made it more or less impossible to do 3hh, Plasma is the best map for protoss since Third World, etc etc etc.
Thirdly, this map pool is NOT "super broken" or "impossible for pvz". Since Jan 2020 the win rates on the ASL maps are as follows: Polypoid 46.7% Eclipse 45.1% Optimizer 47.4% Ringing Bloom 52.2% Benzene 37.7% Shakuras Temple 47.7% (Spon has two of them, I took the one with the most games, I'm too lazy to merge them) Plasma 67.9%.
My quick calculator potato math gives me an average PvZ win rate of 49.24% (I also checked since July, for a more recent, but smaller sample size, and the number ends up at 49.64%). Granted, both benzene and plasma have low'ish game counts and I suspect that if you were to do a weighted calculation where you also took into account the amount of games played, it would be a bit worse for protoss. But overall this map pool is *not* super imbalanced, nor is it the reason there is no protoss in the top 4. A FS/CB/Sylphid/Escalade type of map pool would be way closer to 40/60 than this, and would actually be potentially imbalanced, in my opinion.
Lastly, I honestly thought it would be painfully obvious for everyone watching that Best lost because he played badly, showed up with a ton of nerves and probably got tilted after his absolute failure to execute his own build in game 1. Best didn't lose because of the maps, or because of the match ups -- we know for a fact that he actually performs really well against Zero, and in particularly he does so on these very maps. The mental gymnastics required to consider 3 games played on one day, in a high pressure LAN situation, is a better sample size than their individual games played over a span of 3 months is absolutely breathtaking. How can you be that delusional? And yeah Snow lost too, to a player he has been losing to consistently, on a wide variety of maps (mappools spanning several ASL/KSLs). People seem to also forget that both Snow and Best won PvZ games against top tier opponents (that they normally lose to) to even get to the ro8 in the ASL -- did you guys just forget, or does protoss winning against good zergs while being underdogs not fit into your narrative, so you choose to ignore it? (Since July, Best is 10-16 vs Action and Snow is 21-38 vs Hero in spon games)
Thirdly, this map pool is NOT "super broken" or "impossible for pvz". Since Jan 2020 the win rates on the ASL maps are as follows: Polypoid 46.7% Eclipse 45.1% Optimizer 47.4% Ringing Bloom 52.2% Benzene 37.7% Shakuras Temple 47.7% (Spon has two of them, I took the one with the most games, I'm too lazy to merge them) Plasma 67.9%.
My quick calculator potato math gives me an average PvZ win rate of 49.24% (I also checked since July, for a more recent, but smaller sample size, and the number ends up at 49.64%). Granted, both benzene and plasma have low'ish game counts and I suspect that if you were to do a weighted calculation where you also took into account the amount of games played, it would be a bit worse for protoss. But overall this map pool is *not* super imbalanced, nor is it the reason there is no protoss in the top 4. A FS/CB/Sylphid/Escalade type of map pool would be way closer to 40/60 than this, and would actually be potentially imbalanced, in my opinion.
With the exception of Polypoid, all of those maps were either introduced for the ASL/ASTL (was it August?) or were out of circulation (Plasma and to a smaller degree Benzene). Benzene was in the map pool for ASL2 and I'll be surprised if a lot of sponmatches were played on it after said tournament. I'll be extremely surprised if anyone played sponsored matches on Plasma, unless someone would specifically sponsor a crazy map or something. So January and July have no reason to differ much anyway. This is speculation, I am a bit too lazy to check how those two maps have fared before the ASL10 pool was announced.
But it's true regardless. A game in a very historically lopsided matchup (Snow vs Soma) and another one featuring a below-par Best against the current ASL champion are no indicators of Plasma being broken in favour of Zerg, although the lurker egg bust might become more popular and prove to be tough to handle over more games.
Or, more likely, people won't play on Plasma all that much to gather any significant sample.
EPT
